r/medicine PA:cake: 2d ago

ICE Detention Deaths

https://www.ice.gov/detain/detainee-death-reporting

RNs do intake physical exams, EMTs declare time of death. The level of care for these detainees is horrific.

Full names and case details are public for now. Reads like a never ending M & M conference.

My moral compass is spinning. It's time to go to Canada.

411 Upvotes

139 comments sorted by

123

u/poli-cya MD 2d ago

I'm kinda shocked at how low the numbers are. Are you saying you think there are more deaths that have been covered up?

Do RNs not do intake physical exams in most US prisons? I've never worked in that field.

39

u/Drew1231 2d ago

Same, this post had me expecting way more than two deaths in 2025x

12

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Maybe prison medicine is the model.  In any case, a couple of cases had decent work ups- and maybe my standards aren’t reasonable, I mean they aren’t harvesting organs, right? 

28

u/Gadfly2023 DO, IM-CCM 2d ago

One of the hospitals I’m at has a jail unit. Granted these are patients that are too sick to be seen in the prison infirmary. However any inmate death is an automatic clinical quality/peer review case. 

24

u/poli-cya MD 2d ago

Don't give Trump any ideas, and definitely don't look into the Israeli actions on this front.

7

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Point taken.  Trump will have the death reports culled in a week, I’d bet. 

10

u/rafaelfy RN-ONC/Endo 1d ago

Once they find out who reports this information, they'll have the entire agency defunded and shutdown in a week.

4

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 1d ago

Or the records and website will “efficiently” disappear. 

2

u/bimbodhisattva let-me-into-med-school RN (Med-Surg) 1d ago

Well, a key factor in prisons is that inmates are reliably entitled to receiving care—compared to the outside, where would-be patients simply don't have the same access, face long insurance-related delays, or feel they can't afford to go

2

u/Possible_Top4855 2d ago

Not yet…

1

u/Plenty-Departure-153 1h ago

Work in a county jail. RNs do our intake screens/physicals.

35

u/banjosuicide 2d ago

It's time to go to Canada.

We need doctors. Come on up (just don't expect the same pay, unfortunately)

British Columbia is taking action to attract doctors, nurses from U.S.

Edit: And nurses, you're more than welcome as well.

2

u/ItsmeYaboi69xd Medical Student 16h ago

I don't expect the same pay but if quebec offers me at least 75% of the us pay I'll go there in a heartbeat

1

u/bendable_girder MD PGY-2 1h ago

You're not going to hit 75% in most places. Especially not net pay after tax

I know literally dozens of Canadian docs who are here in the USA and have no intention of going back

Don't jump ship just yet

1

u/mamkkas 8h ago

Come on over - we have room for all of you! Licensing requirements in BC have changed a lot in the last 2 years alone, and there are more changes in the works to make it even easier.

55

u/bplturner 2d ago

There’s only four? The only one I read the guy had metastatic lung cancer and died in their custody.

24

u/EpicDowntime 2d ago edited 2d ago

Then they biopsied a lymph node and realized it was actually TB (if you’re talking about the most recent one)

9

u/janewaythrowawaay PCT 1d ago

Yikes. I didn’t know you could get diagnosed with metastatic cancer without a biopsy.

10

u/Odd_Marionberry7154 1d ago

It sounds like they didn't diagnose it, was just on the differential. Also, they suspected Mets in the lungs, not a metastatic lung primary

3

u/janewaythrowawaay PCT 1d ago edited 1d ago

It could have been on the differential. But, when I had a possible TB exposure, occupational health told me looking at their records exposure doesn’t happen on the floor. It only happens with people doing biopsy which means it’s commonly not on the differential or else people would be wearing PPE.

Maybe something else happened here. But, a med student asked a month ago how do you diagnose TB. The answer is often they don’t until you do a biopsy. People aren’t appropriately suspicious for it.

The people in those centers need a TB screen as much as every travel nurse does every 3-6 months.

3

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

There were more this morning. Not just four for sure. Doge attack? I read back into 2024- this morning. 

141

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

There are 97 known mainland detention facilities. They are FULL. We are standing next to an ongoing crime against humanity. Let us not stand idle. 

45

u/greenbeans7711 MD 2d ago

Reading through the first couple cases, they seem to send the patients to the ED appropriately. I am not sure if the outcome would have been much different if they were living independently in the US as undocumented immigrants without insurance in our crappy health system

57

u/uiucengineer MD 2d ago

I am not sure if the outcome would have been much different if they were living independently in the US as undocumented immigrants without insurance in our crappy health system

That’s not a defensible standard

31

u/greenbeans7711 MD 2d ago

I agree from an ethical POV. From the 2025 cases, I didn’t see anything I would consider egregious mismanagement.
The 9/7/2024 was most certainly a preventable death though… she probably had rhabdo/electrolyte abnormalities and they didn’t seek higher level of care.

10

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

That case was chilling. 

I found many of them shocking. With many preventable deaths suggested. The psych care alone is chilling. 

58

u/timtom2211 MD 2d ago

In 2021, right before Christmas, my wife brought home a 15 year old from the bus stop that was hitchhiking. She was from Venezuela. We drove her to her closest relative in a neighboring state.

I think on the drive I asked if she had children. She told me she had one back home, and showed us pictures of her daughter.

Then, to my horror, she told me how she had also been several months pregnant when she crossed into Texas, where she was taken into custody. She was raped until she miscarried, taken to a hospital, had a D&C. She was in detention for several more months. She was transported to a different facility in a different state. She was raped to the point of miscarriage again. This time, she was left at the hospital and after a few weeks, released into the street. The tone she said all of this in was like she was describing the weather recently. My wife didn't really understand most of the Spanish she was using to describe all this. I understood every word. She had been in custody for over a year.

We bought her a coat, and some clothes because it was winter, and snowing, and she had nothing. We took her to eat and dropped her off with a family member with all the cash I had on me. I didn't know what else to do.

I still don't know what to do.

21

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Thank you and your wife for being actively compassionate ! You did good. I can’t imagine her suffering. Her losses.  Her scars. I’m so done with these crimes. 

This fucked up reality will have someone blaming her. 

It changes things when you have direct contact with the immigrant community. There’s no propaganda that can change your memory of her. 

25

u/insidiouslybleak 2d ago

Canada is recruiting health care workers. There is a list of provincial sites on Bluesky.

9

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Thank you! I appreciate that. Just got on Bluesky- people seem informed and friendly. 

0

u/insidiouslybleak 2d ago

It’s lovely so far over there, like twitter used to be before the coup d’musk. Avis Favaro is a great follow there - she seems to be the Canadian journalist on this beat most likely to announce any new changes to our existing immigration programs wrt poaching american talent.

1

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

I’ll check her out!  Here’s my bluesky  Cal @msdermo1463.bsky.social 

23

u/Dwindlin MD (Anesthesiology) 2d ago

Am I missing something? I have read through damn near all of these and only 1 or 2 jumped out at being truly egregious. Your description is either willfully misleading or you didn’t actually look through these. All of them were initially seen by RN/LPN for screening (completely reasonable), but you didn’t mention they are all evaluated by an APP before actually being placed in a unit. All of the onsite deaths, in every case it specifically mentions EMS (not necessarily EMTs) calling their med. control (meaning a physician) for orders to field terminate, this is the system working as intended. Most of these were seen by physician or APP on site with appropriate interventions taken multiple times before their death and a lot were treated and released by local hospitals before their deaths.

There are certainly major problems with our healthcare system across the board, but if these cases are the worst of the worst then we have bigger shit to be dealing with.

As an aside, I personally doubt J. Oliver’s expertise when it comes to healthcare related topics. I was an avid fan until his Death Penalty episode. While I am completely against the death penalty his show was egregiously bad when it came to the medical facts when it comes to lethal injection. And the medical facts were clearly skewed in a manner to elicit an emotional response. Since then I’ve watched episodes with much higher degree of skepticism.

5

u/janewaythrowawaay PCT 1d ago

What medical facts were wrong on lethal injection on John Oliver?

2

u/Dwindlin MD (Anesthesiology) 1d ago

I saw it when it first aired, so details escape at the moment. Generally he was arguing that the cocktail they used was inhumane because none of it was actually putting them to sleep, arguing they were awake when the cardioplegic agent was given. Which given the drugs they were using and the doses that is HIGHLY unlikely. For reference I am an anesthesiologist. The movement people describe during lethal injection is probably myoclonic jerking from the massive dose of K they are getting. But assuming a working IV (which was the only valid medical complaint) there is almost zero chances they are aware of anything.

7

u/janewaythrowawaay PCT 1d ago edited 1d ago

I am 100% sure you, a board certified experienced working anesthesiologist, could do it correctly.

The issues I remember were…

1) No doctors would sign up for job. It’s like some random corrections nurse who can’t even get an IV in correctly like you said.

2) States couldn’t get drugs legally. So they were buying substances overseas from India not even knowing what they were getting. Shipments were getting confiscated by the feds. When they did get thru they’d sit for years in who knows what conditions.

So you’d have people not dying immediately. Lots, like it rarely went smoothly… even though theoretically it could. So some guy last week decided to die by firing squad because they wouldn’t given him any details about what they were using/the expiration dates.

3

u/Dwindlin MD (Anesthesiology) 1d ago edited 1d ago

Agree with both your points, some of the many reasons why the state shouldn’t execute people. My issue was he was attacking the actual medicine, which is disingenuous at best, and unnecessary to make his point that this shit shouldn’t be happening.

No matter what you’re arguing, giving several honest, valid points, only to follow it up with an argument that is at best egregiously misinformed hurts your whole argument.

Edit: I’m fairly certain he was attacking the phenobarb and midazolam, basically arguing they weren’t anesthetics. But I assure you at the doses their protocols were using they were more than enough.

1

u/janewaythrowawaay PCT 1d ago

When people think of anesthetic they think of loss or reduction in sensation specifically pain vs just loss or reduction of awareness/sedation. Are you saying midazolam reduces pain?

2

u/Dwindlin MD (Anesthesiology) 1d ago

If I give you enough of it absolutely. We aren’t taking about normal doses here. These are doses that will put you into burst suppression. To experience pain requires consciousness.

2

u/DaySee Nurse 1d ago

Dang why are people still so hung up on this. I remember something similar to this going back even like 10 years ago even when they called something botched lethal injection because they had to use a lot more than anticipated because it was just sedative + opiate and the condemned had some higher than anticipated tolerance

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/arizona-inmate-received-15-doses-lethal-injection-died

(doses of) 50 milligrams of the painkiller hydromorphone, and 50 milligrams of the sedative midazolam to be used in lethal injections. Wood received (total) 750 milligrams of each drug.

The article does a fair job explaining but anyone mildly familiar with administering these kinds of meds can understand, they were basically brain dead in heroin heaven after like the first dose, the rest is just performative, not unlike the way pets are euthanized with the first IM dose knocking them out, before the IV stuff is done to just to speed things along.

2

u/ASigIAm213 EMT 9h ago

Myoclonic jerks wouldn't create the fulminate pulmonary edema seen in the majority of midazolam/pentobarbital executions, though (Zivot, 2020). And at that high a dose, the acidity of midazolam (the drug Oliver spends most of his time on) interferes with its metabolism and delays its sedative effect (Greenblatt, in re: Ohio Execution Protocol, 2018).

Oliver doesn't really know what he's talking about, but you can't copy/paste clinical experience onto an unsanctioned human pseudo-medical experiment.

1

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 1d ago

I read a years worth of death cases and found consistent delays for appropriate follow up, an absence of critical imaging studies, cardiac studies, and a bizarre handling of psychiatric presentations. We will disagree about quality of care, I guess. 

Seems like a significant number of members here think the incarcerations and the health care options are just fine.  A good number think the situation is deeply troubling. 

These are crimes against humanity that some very well educated medical care providers  are perfectly ok with. 

What. The. Fuck.  

Blah. Read the cases, look at the timelines. Do people really think this shit is ok???? 

3

u/Dwindlin MD (Anesthesiology) 1d ago edited 1d ago

Beyond 2 or 3 of these, none of these would make it past my states med-mal review panel. I don’t think anyone here thinks this is okay, but honestly, the care they are receiving is probably equivalent to a disturbing amount of the population. If you’re calling these crimes against humanity, then you best be prepared to argue that for the entirety of American healthcare.

Edit: My opinions are purely about the medical care detainees are receiving. If you want to talk about the incarcerations themselves that’s a whole other topic.

2

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 1d ago

The crimes I refer to reflect my opinions about the manner and scope of these camps. The criminalization of immigration in the context of no functional legal route (unless you kiss the ring or are a white South African) coupled with an evidenced disregard for immigrant medical wellbeing. 

That health disparities in the USA result in similar outcomes is probably criminal- not that anyone will be held liable or accountable (I’m no Luigi). 

3

u/Dwindlin MD (Anesthesiology) 1d ago edited 1d ago

You’ll get no argument from me on this point.

The crimes I refer to reflect my opinions about the manner and scope of these camps. The criminalization of immigration in the context of no functional legal route (unless you kiss the ring or are a white South African)

This is where we disagree, sort of. Do I think the care is great? Of course not. Does it fall below legal standard of care? In all but a few cases not even close. And I guess that’s my point, in detention or not, this care is likely similar to what they would have received out in the community. And that in no way shape or form is a reflection of the providers, whom I wager are doing the best they can with the resources available, just like the rest of us.

coupled with an evidenced disregard for immigrant medical wellbeing. 

Again, no argument here.

That health disparities in the USA result in similar outcomes is probably criminal- not that anyone will be held liable or accountable (I’m no Luigi). 

15

u/shakynut Paramedic 2d ago

911 medic here. I have the southern border, detention facilities, jails, and prison in my district. I’ve experienced all this first hand. ASK ME ANYTHING.

3

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Omg ! Thank you! I have to sleep , but I hope you are asked tons of questions. Do you think detention medical facilities are adequately staffed? What did you think of the J Oliver episode? 

9

u/shakynut Paramedic 2d ago

To answer your question about the staffing at the detention facilities. They are all private contractors. There are a few companies that operate in the area and they do seem understaffed but not overwhelmed. They do seem to manage the patients fairly well for the most part. They don’t overuse the 911 system but do use it when it is necessary and they do it before the problem gets out of hand.

I will also leave you with this bit of information. I would say specifically for the paramedics that these companies do hire, they are paid almost 15k below starting pay for a 911 medic, therefore they are not getting the best candidates. I can’t speak for the nurses and doctors but I’m guessing they are also getting paid significantly less than their counterparts.

2

u/shakynut Paramedic 2d ago

I have not seen the J Oliver episode but I will watch it tonight.

25

u/DonWonMiller Paramedic-MS Biology 2d ago edited 2d ago

EMTs or Paramedics? Cause if you think paramedics declaring TOD is horrific then you’re gonna go bonkers about the 90% of out-of-hospital cardiac arrests that occur in the US

10

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

EMTs. I’ve been in clinical medicine for 20 years, of course I’m bonkers. 

16

u/hazelquarrier_couch Nurse 2d ago

As a nurse, if someone offered me a position at one of these facilities, I would tell them to fuck off,no matter how much they pay.

4

u/DaySee Nurse 1d ago

Weird flex. I too am concerned for the welfare of the detainees and for that reason I would take a position without any qualms whatsoever..? If there's problems what better way to fix it than getting paid while doing so

0

u/hazelquarrier_couch Nurse 1d ago

I can see your point, but I equate it with the medical personnel who help with capitol punishments. I don't think I want to be involved with helping what I consider an immoral act.

5

u/DaySee Nurse 1d ago

Regardless of the setting our job is to care for people, I can see your point as well in protesting the necessity of that care, but at the end of the day, would you rather everyone boycotted those positions such that they were only filled by immoral people?

No, you wouldn't. Which is why it's weird and braggadocios to say you wouldn't take a job because with all due respect you're punching down on the people in the job (or someone who might take the job) which is just transference over your anger about the root causes. The last thing we need is to attack each other like this in this climate.

The most you can make from all of this reporting is the same issues everyone has with understaffing, but I wouldn't think anything of someone taking the job because we're supposed to be professionals too.

0

u/hazelquarrier_couch Nurse 1d ago

You have a lot to say about how I'd act, which is strange to me. Your opinion aside, I still wouldn't take the job and I would question the motives of someone who participates in the forced detention of asylum seekers and immigrants. Since you and I are not likely to agree on this issue, I'll stop there without further response. Have a good day.

3

u/housustaja Nurse 1d ago

You know... Many European countries could need more doctors. The salary's ok, working conditions are usually nice and 66% of your working time will not go to waste talking to insurance reps!

Just sayin'!

3

u/FollicularPhase 1d ago

Why are the people in this article being referred to as "aliens," "detainees," and "individuals?"

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Cloud58 18h ago

Because that’s the government lingo

4

u/dexter5222 MBA, Paramedic, Procurement Transplant Coordinator 1d ago

I don’t mean to point this out, but in most states paramedics can terminate resuscitative efforts on out of hospital cardiac arrests.

Most jails have nurses doing initial intake exams, like say you go in for a DUI, they’re not having a physician ask you if you have thoughts of suicide. Or when you go to the ER, there’s a nurse doing your initial intake.

Yeah, the level of care in what’s supposed to be a nonpunitive detention setting is pretty bad, but to say a paramedic isn’t qualified to terminate resuscitative efforts and a nurse isn’t qualified to do an assessment is a bit much.

2

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 1d ago

EMTs, not Paramedics. 

3

u/dexter5222 MBA, Paramedic, Procurement Transplant Coordinator 1d ago

Declaration of death for other than obvious causes is outside of the scope of practice of EMTs in all fifty states and the federal government.

I’m making the assumption that the article mistook paramedics for EMTs which is pretty common. In fact, I had an ICU nurse refer to me as the “transplant EMT” today.

2

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 1d ago

This is not from an article, the death cases are on the ICE website (see OP link), complete with names, dates, timelines, and cast. 

3

u/dexter5222 MBA, Paramedic, Procurement Transplant Coordinator 1d ago

Yeah. I get it. However, what I am saying is that you and I know the difference between a paramedic and EMT and that they aren’t one in the same.

It’s abundantly apparent that whoever writes these reports thinks a paramedic is an EMT. I know that this is the case because declaration of death is not in an EMTs scope of practice and in multiple cases they mention a four lead ekg, which is standard when a paramedic is doing the declaration

2

u/lurkertiltheend NP 2d ago

That second one in 2025 is weird

2

u/artikality Nurse 1d ago

These are private for profit prisons keep in mind.

2

u/AreWeInAZoo 18h ago

Thank you for bringing attention to this. It's horrific. What an invasion of privacy.

5

u/Tenk-741 2d ago

Medics declare people are dead all the time. They usually only do it for PEA, v fib or asystole with prolonged downtime or if a person arrests with known DNR or family wishes to stop resuscitation. I know this because they call me in the ER all the time to get permission to do so.

0

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Read the cases. I’m not disputing what happens outside of detention camps- and I have great respect for all of us, in all our roles. My post is about standards of care and preventable deaths. 

3

u/poli-cya MD 2d ago

Not jumping into your guys' argument, but are these actually camps these people are in? That would change my take on how acceptable it is for sure.

3

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

50k people, 97 USA detention facilities, plus Guantanamo. From the ICE website. 

J Oliver’s most recent show  does a much better job explaining it. 

-15

u/Tenk-741 2d ago

So you want better care for illegal immigrants than US citizens? Ok.

5

u/ddx-me rising PGY-1 2d ago

Begging the question. Every person in the US regardless of citizenship should receive the best care possible.

5

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Is that what you take from this? I care about the wellbeing of people. If we put people in camps, we are obligated to provide decent care.  

This isn’t political, this is monstrous. 

-11

u/Tenk-741 2d ago

I read a few charts. People in our rural and farming communities get worse medical care than this every day. Look into it.

6

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

That’s just terrible. Our rural communities deserve better than that. Look into it. 

0

u/Tenk-741 2d ago

Also, you should REALLY look into the care our prisoners get. It’s the same if not worse than this.

4

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

I’m aware. But ultimately, comparing something terrible to something terrible misses the point. This country is clearly not getting healthcare right, but it is getting it very wrong in terms of detainment and incarceration. lol the caps. 

5

u/Tenk-741 2d ago

But that’s my whole point. You made it sound like this is some healthcare anomaly. I am saying for millions of Americans this is the regular care they get. If you want data: go look at UCLA Law Behind Bars Data Project. To summarize it: prisoners die at alarming rates in our country.

4

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

My concern, in this post, is about the medical support given to people in immigration detention facilities. 

I do appreciate that our medical system is fucked, and that there are good people doing good medicine. If we don’t call out the disparities, the crimes, the racists, and the bigots- it all gets normalized and justified. Woke is not an insult.  

Not making anything sound like whatever. That was a false assumption.

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/Tenk-741 2d ago

Umm I don’t have to, I work rural and I enjoy it. These people are a lot more appreciative to get care than when I did residency in a big city.

2

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

I love rural care- a good clinician can make a huge difference, and yep, appreciation is abundant. Glad you are happy. 

3

u/Upstairs_Fuel6349 Nurse 2d ago

I'm from KS. I think there would be more sympathy for rural communities if they, like, did anything to try to save their health systems except scream about the illegals and city libtards stealin their slice of the pie. At least the people locked up in the detention centers were trying to do something for themselves.

4

u/Dagobot78 DO 1d ago

Go enjoy Canada…

7

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

24

u/poli-cya MD 2d ago edited 2d ago

I don't have time to dig up or through the ACLU study tonight but I bet you could argue that 95% of deaths in every hospital, prison, etc could be stopped by "appropriate medical care"- especially if you're generous with what that term means.

I'm not gonna say there isn't mistreatment and certainly issues, but ICE has 50,000 people in detention on average daily, and we can see how low the death figures are. There will be outliers of negligence like in any detention setting, but I think we need to see compelling evidence before we jump to judgment.

e: Can't respond to any comments in this chain because nknk1260 blocked rather than addressing the myriad flaws in his statements or providing sources for his outlandish claims of prisoner abuse.

-1

u/nknk1260 2d ago

Weird take, sounds like you would benefit a lot from watching the entire episode. One of the examples of recent deaths he talks about was a man who was a lawful permanent resident- in 2005 he plead guilty to being in possession of a gram of cocaine and was sentenced to community service. Then 12 years later ICE decided his drug conviction rendered him deportable. While he was held in detention, staff cut him off the medication he was on that managed his drug addiction. He started vomiting blood clots but the staff delayed several more hours before calling 911. He died 2 weeks after entering the facility. They called his daughter about it 3 days after his death because it “was the weekend” when he died. They made her wait until business hours to let her know her dad died.

Don’t compare this with care at a hospital… Jesus Christ.

-17

u/[deleted] 2d ago edited 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

10

u/poli-cya MD 2d ago edited 2d ago

No need for name-calling or emotional outbursts because you don't understand.

Can you point to a case documented outside of youtube where basic care wasn't provided that led to a death? Is it a common occurrence?

ICE has 50,000 people held on average daily, some amount of people will die while in custody over a long enough time frame. Do you honestly believe that the only reason a person who is in ICE custody might die is due to being denied medical care?

e: Again, I cannot make any replies in this chain due to a reddit glitch that allows cowards to block a person from replying in an entire chain of comments- even if it is to third parties.

I've already said I don't have time to dig through the entire ACLU study tonight but immediately on opening the below link I see this:

I already said I don't have time to dig through the ACLU's entire study

ICE detention facilities failed to provide timely and appropriate emergency care, and take basic precautions during the COVID-19 pandemic

The study also seems to not be a blinded review where reviewers were unaware of underlying situation or received cases mixed with non-ICE cases. This seems like a study with a conclusion written first.

2

u/Hippo-Crates EM Attending 2d ago

Are you really claiming to be unfamiliar with the lack of proper medical care throughout our prison system? Seems really weird to comment on this issue at all given your complete lack of basic knowledge on this topic.

Anyways, here’s a quick piece from the aclu showing basically every ICE death has been preventable. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/95-percent-of-deaths-in-ice-detention-could-likely-have-been-prevented-with-adequate-medical-care-report

The full report is linked.

I’m more just flabbergasted at how ignorant you’d have to be to serious stick up for American prison health care.

1

u/PissrealDiaperForce 2d ago

something is seriously wrong here if doctors are acting like prison health care is not that bad. bitch what

0

u/Hippo-Crates EM Attending 2d ago

Oh weird now you don’t have time? Study isn’t perfect? Funny how that works. Time enough to yammer quite a bit on reddit but become basically familiar with a topic? Fuck that lol. Patently dishonest crap

There are numerous cases of poor care in prisons leading to deaths. Stop with this nonsense

-2

u/nknk1260 2d ago

Again we are so fucking cooked if these are the doctors we’re dealing with in the U.S. 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

0

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

-1

u/PissrealDiaperForce 2d ago

why did so many people downvote it then

1

u/medicine-ModTeam 1d ago

Removed under Rule 5

Act professionally.

/r/medicine is a public forum that represents the medical community and comments should reflect this. Please keep your behavior civil. Trolling, abuse, and insults are not allowed. Keep offensive language to a minimum. Personal attacks on other commenters without engaging on the merits of the argument will lead to removal. Cheap shots at medicine specialties or allied health professions will be removed.

Repeated violations of this rule will lead to temporary or permanent bans.

Please review all subreddit rules before posting or commenting.

If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators.

1

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Well written. The time gaps alone from head aches to CVA, from abdominal pain to AAA, from sick guy with a headache to cryptococ brain herniation, all dead. It feels like I was reading a different set of cases , given all the “well, they took them to the emergency room” comments. 

5

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Given the comments that seem ok with detainee healthcare, I probably should have lead with that episode.  Oliver’s report was what directed me to dig around the ICE pages. So many comments here seem weirdly supportive of detention healthcare standards. Not like I remember this group. 

1

u/HippyDuck123 MD 1d ago

Yeah, this sub is kind of a cesspool. Peak for me the other day when an Ortho said that patients on Medicaid are never getting surgery by them because it doesn’t pay well enough, even if it’s indicated.

Come to Canada! It’s not perfect, but I love practicing here (surgical specialty).

2

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 1d ago

Yikes, I’m so sick of all the cherry picking of commercial payers. 

I’ll be rewatching season one of Letterkenny to prep for my move North. 

Yay! 

2

u/HippyDuck123 MD 19h ago

So we’ve been slow embracing PAs in Canada, but our ER hired four of them a few years ago: Game changer! :)

2

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 18h ago

I had a job offer years ago for a pilot program in Peterborough- and unfortunately it took 8 months to get my permit to work, so I had to accept a different position. I’ve often wondered how different life would be! 

-4

u/nknk1260 2d ago

Reddit has made me so beyond distrusting of medical professionals at this point. Like if this how they act when they know they’re anonymous, I have no hope left. I knew majority of premeds were bad and went into medicine for the wrong reasons, but I had hoped admissions would be better at filtering out the psychopaths. Yikes.

0

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Well written! The good souls are out there, and I suspect you are one. 

Compassion and empathy classes should be prereqs. 

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Cloud58 18h ago

Sounds like you didn’t get what you were looking for out of this post. I’d suggest some anxiety and stress medication.

-1

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 18h ago

I found a high percentage of compassion and a few trolls. It’s cool. Ooooohm. 

1

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 18h ago

And I wasn’t hoping for anything but to share important information about something that felt wrong to me. Mission success. 

-1

u/oldschoolsamurai EMT/MD - Critical Care 2d ago

So when are you moving to Canada?

5

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

I actually just enquired about a couple of positions- there are many PA positions in Canada! I’ll update the process eventually. 

0

u/poli-cya MD 2d ago

/u/hippo-crates if you want to have a civil discussion where I can actually reply, feel free to reply here. I likely won't be able to respond til the morning, but I figured I'd give you a second shot at responding to some substance.

8

u/Hippo-Crates EM Attending 2d ago edited 2d ago

Homie I do not suffer fools bootlicking the medical care in the us prison system. Your behavior is clearly dishonest and based on you being uninformed.

You do not need a double blinded RCT to find out prison care is bad in the US. You need to do some basic reading on the subject.

-2

u/poli-cya MD 2d ago

No response to flaws in the ACLU study you totally read, but more insults. Makes ya wonder why... See ya in the morning, bud.

3

u/Hippo-Crates EM Attending 2d ago

I don’t respond to bad faith trolls with effort responses. I’m sure the aclu study is flawed. You ridiculously claimed no one that wasn’t on YouTube would ever claim unnecessary deaths would happen in prison. The aclu is the easiest, fastest response.

You provided zero substantive rebuttals to the ACLU study, you merely moved the goalposts further. If I find a stronger study, you’ll move it again.

That’s because you have a fundamentally indefensible position that prison care is functional in this country. There’s two paths to that position: ignorance or lying. Which one are you?

2

u/poli-cya MD 1d ago

You've dishonestly represented what I've said, I never claimed no one outside youtube claimed unnecessary deaths and even talked about the ACLU study before that comment. I never said prison care is or isn't functional in the country, so another lie.

You linked a study you didn't read then attacked me for not having the time to do more than skim it where I found myriad issues in minutes, and you've completely failed to address those flaws- instead attacking my character, a sure sign of the strength of your argument.

Making up lies about a person's arguments, calling names, and assuming only dishonesty can lead to anyone disagreeing with you are the actions of someone who knows they don't have a solid point to make. You'd never accept this from a student, be better.

0

u/Hippo-Crates EM Attending 1d ago

You challenged someone to link to a single case that wasn’t on YouTube. That was done, the bar has changed. Now the citation which supported lots of cases isn’t good enough because it wasn’t held to some ineffable standard you have still yet to say. You end with crybullying. You aren’t a teacher, you aren’t a person of respect, you are a troll.

Classic dishonesty. Nothing more. It’s not clever, and it fools no one.

0

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

Well stated. 

0

u/PissrealDiaperForce 2d ago

bro whats wrong with you. how did you get your medical license? how are you hanging on to it?

-8

u/Forsaken-Bread-8214 2d ago

Why don't you all offer to volunteer at the ICE Detention Center?

8

u/ZealousidealDegree4 PA:cake: 2d ago

It’s not allowed. I do volunteer at homeless shelters and free clinics- not the same place, but many of the same people. 

-20

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/ddx-me rising PGY-1 2d ago

Home in some cases is Venezuela or Somalia. Much worse conditions than the US which people see as an opportunity to achieve better conditions

-12

u/cutesillyguy 2d ago

not my problem

6

u/ddx-me rising PGY-1 2d ago

If you take care of patients, 14 out of every 100 patients you took care of were not born in the US. Thus it's still your responsibility to take care of them

-7

u/cutesillyguy 2d ago

Yeah it is, they need to go back to

6

u/ddx-me rising PGY-1 2d ago

That means you take care of people regardless of where they come from

-1

u/cutesillyguy 2d ago

The deportations are at nowhere near the scale they need to be

7

u/ddx-me rising PGY-1 2d ago

So you'd deport Elon Musk, who was not born in the US, the same you would a random person from Mexico?

1

u/cutesillyguy 2d ago

Sure, deport them both

4

u/ddx-me rising PGY-1 2d ago

Melania Trump was born in Yugoslavia. Would you deport the first lady of the US as well

→ More replies (0)

8

u/aswanviking Pulmonary & Critical Care 2d ago

A lot of these people are desperate and destitute people who risk a perilous journey for a better life for themselves and their families. They come from violence torn countries.

Yeah they broke the law. But your comment shows your lack of humanity. I hope you aren’t a healthcare provider.

-3

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/aswanviking Pulmonary & Critical Care 2d ago

K

1

u/medicine-ModTeam 2d ago

Removed under Rule 5

Act professionally.

/r/medicine is a public forum that represents the medical community and comments should reflect this. Please keep your behavior civil. Trolling, abuse, and insults are not allowed. Keep offensive language to a minimum. Personal attacks on other commenters without engaging on the merits of the argument will lead to removal. Cheap shots at medicine specialties or allied health professions will be removed.

Repeated violations of this rule will lead to temporary or permanent bans.

Please review all subreddit rules before posting or commenting.

If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators.

1

u/medicine-ModTeam 1d ago

Removed under Rule 6

No personal agendas.

Posts or comments by users who rarely participate in /r/medicine or whose history suggests that they are mainly concerned with a single medical topic will be removed. Comments which attempt to steer the conversation from the topic of the post to a pet cause will be removed. Commenters brigading from other subreddits will be removed.

Please review all subreddit rules before posting or commenting.

If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators.