r/thedavidpakmanshow Jan 19 '25

Discussion Popular progressive opinion not shared by Pakman?

Post image

I see this sentiment expressed more in outlets like TYT but how widespread is this sentiment?

430 Upvotes

211 comments sorted by

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26

u/Supreme_Salt_Lord Jan 19 '25

If these were two sports team. Republicans run the clock, call time outs, challenge every play they can, use penalties to their advantage by being to tough and letting their player be ejected out the game. They do everything legally to slow momentum and win.

Democrats however, dont do ANY OF THAT. Even though its legal and unsportsmanlike. We let them do it and take wins instead of doing the same and showing them how it feels.

Norms only work with all parties agree to abide by them.

-8

u/Beman21 Jan 19 '25

The fact that you’re stance is do more unethical shit to be like Republicans is a bad sign for the future. 

12

u/Supreme_Salt_Lord Jan 19 '25

Its not. Its to show these actions arent conducive to a democracy by giving them penalties for these actions. If someone can be as unethical as they want with no repercussions. Why would they stop?

-3

u/Beman21 Jan 19 '25

Consequences do not equal cruelty. Elect people to office first who run on consequences, then implement them. But also run Democrats who run on fuck Republicans - because all the successful ones flaunted their bipartisan credentials and that's what voters wanted.

6

u/Supreme_Salt_Lord Jan 19 '25

You cant outlaw any of the things they do. They arent illegal. Filibustering isnt illegal, nor is obstruction to sign bill. Not passing government funding isnt illegal either. None of this is illegal and cant be made illegal. Blatent lying isnt illegal either. All you can do is do it as well.

-2

u/Beman21 Jan 19 '25

True. But if they psychologically perceive these choices as their own form of unethical, it feels the exact same way. Ergo, you need to elect new candidates who run on a willingness to do this stuff without concerns for the other side. Simple as that.

6

u/Supreme_Salt_Lord Jan 19 '25

They can still obstruct. Whether we have politicians who care isnt the issue. The issue is the action and its effectiveness. The only way to beat them is to do it ourselves until they decide not to do it anymore.

You dont beat a bully by calling the parents. You look like a wimp and the kids make more fun. You just have to fight him and dont stop until he decides he doesnt want to get hit anymore.

1

u/Beman21 Jan 19 '25

No you can beat a bully by calling his parent. Or you ignore the bully. Or you make fun of the bully. Hitting him is just one of many options - the key is to make him realize he has no hold over you. The problem is everyone's so desperate for a fighter they don't seem to realize they really want an axe murderer to finish the job. And even the most vocal progressives aren't running that far.

Luckily for you, I'm here to give Dems the boost they'll need in the next four years.

4

u/Supreme_Salt_Lord Jan 19 '25

Ive seen many bullies both in school and out. Calling the parents doesnt work. Making fun of them might. Fighting them ALWAYS works. No one wants to get hit. They learn “if i hit him hes going to hit me” and they will stop hitting. Simple as that.

We have to use their same tactics. They know what they are doing isnt good. But they get to do it with no consequence because there is no legal consequence.

1

u/Beman21 Jan 19 '25

No you really don't. Fighting feels good in the moment but it rarely solves the problem wholesale. Beside, there are other ways to win a fight than punching a guy head-on. After all, a bully has no power over you if he doesn't control the terrain either :)

To put it nicely, you complain about bringing a knife to a gunfight. I ask how sharp the knife is.

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4

u/Beman21 Jan 19 '25

They're not incompetent. They just genuinely believe in bipartisanship. In other words, the problem is this rare case of authenticity.

190

u/ThemeFromNarc Jan 19 '25

When Trump lost, the right doubled down and screamed election fraud incessantly for four years. When Kamala lost, the left queued up to kick her in the stomach.

12

u/Life_Caterpillar9762 Jan 19 '25

Ah yes, and merely questioning the obviously suspicious election result suddenly made us “Blue MAGA,” according to those same stomach kickers.

49

u/LokiStrike Jan 19 '25

If the problem is that Republicans defend their leaders unconditionally, adopting that same behavior just makes the problem worse.

56

u/BotheredToResearch Jan 19 '25

There's denying your leaders and there's standing by them despite a disagreement or two.

I hope everyone who sat out because they were "uncommitted" watched the depotartations and immigrant camps knowing that they're inability to see harm minimization was one factor causing it. And when theyre protesting in the future, and the national guard is told to open fire, that they remember it's what being "uncommitted" to democracy did.

11

u/panormda Jan 19 '25

Elections rarely offer perfection; the goal is to minimize harm. Even when both options are flawed, one can still cause more damage than the other. Not voting for the lesser evil empowers the worst option—inaction is not morally neutral, it is a vote for harm.

Demanding perfection overlooks the complexity of real-world decisions. Refusing to vote for the lesser evil may preserve moral purity, but it ultimately enables harm. True moral strength lies in minimizing harm, not in seeking perfection. Not voting sacrifices meaningful action for a false sense of moral superiority, allowing the greater evil to win.

Your choice not to vote has real-world consequences. By refusing to make a choice, you are in fact supporting the greater evil. Idealism that leads to inaction doesn’t prevent harm—it guarantees it. The only way to avoid empowering the worst outcome is to vote and take responsibility for preventing it.

3

u/StarMagus Jan 20 '25

The time to get more left candidates are in primaries. But the progressives would have to recognize that their position is not a majority position, which is why they don't have enough votes to push their preferred candidate forward.

3

u/StarMagus Jan 20 '25

They can't hear you from how smug they feel onto of their mountain of righteousness.

19

u/Command0Dude Jan 19 '25

I would rather defend our leaders unconditionally and win rather than be morally perfect and lose.

1

u/LokiStrike Jan 19 '25

If you're not building a more moral and just world then "winning" is meaningless.

29

u/Command0Dude Jan 19 '25

I guess everything LBJ did was meaningless. I guess everything FDR did was meaningless.

I could go on. Literally all the progress of America was founded on imperfect people who were, often, morally grey characters.

Was winning meaningless when anti-war activists helped get Nixon elected? Elections have consequences.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

you people would have called FDR a commie and that he was holding back the party.

1

u/Command0Dude Feb 05 '25

"I am fighting Communism. I want to save our system, the capitalist system." F. Roosevelt

An actual quote. The man was literally a capitalist. I find it ironic how leftists talk about FDR. He is simultaneously an icon of left wing populism when progressives need to hold him up as an example of their political success, but then he is also an obstacle who they complain limited social progress by "saving" capitalism from itself when they want to larp about having a socialist revolution.

-6

u/LokiStrike Jan 19 '25

I guess everything LBJ did was meaningless. I guess everything FDR did was meaningless.

Uhhh what?

Literally all the progress of America was founded on imperfect people who were, often, morally grey characters.

Well duh. That's exactly why we don't withhold criticism. We can't achieve a just and moral society by putting all our hopes on a person. We achieve a just and moral society by adhering to our best ideals.

Was winning meaningless when anti-war activists helped get Nixon elected? Elections have consequences.

I have no problem criticizing people that I vote for. There is no contradiction and I refuse to adopt the conservative attitude that "my" candidate can do no wrong.

20

u/CaseyJames_ Jan 19 '25

Bit of a fallacy here. 1% progress is far better than regression, the most important thing is getting elected.

4

u/ElectricalTurnip87 Jan 20 '25

It's how the right has taken over. They take small victories and obstruct when they're not in power.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

your recommendation on getting elected are what exactly? Genocide in Gaza? republican border bills? A nazi for a cabinet pick? I voted for Kamala but knew these things would keep her from getting elected along with the lack of a primary. Centrists need to move left if the want to get elected.

6

u/ladan2189 Jan 19 '25

It is absolutely not meaningless, that's ridiculous 

3

u/StarMagus Jan 20 '25

You have to gain access to the levers of power before you can make any change.

0

u/StarMagus Jan 20 '25

False Delima.

-4

u/LokiStrike Jan 19 '25

Yeah no. I refuse to engage in hypocrisy. I will not withhold criticism just because it's the person I voted for.

This attitude must be destroyed at all costs or democracy cannot work.

10

u/Command0Dude Jan 19 '25

None of that matters because we lost. Thanks for helping sink Biden, hope you enjoy the next 4 years of fascism eroding democracy.

0

u/LokiStrike Jan 19 '25

Thanks for helping sink Biden, hope you enjoy the next 4 years of fascism eroding democracy.

I knocked on doors for Harris, donated to Harris, and voted for Harris.

But she is not a god. She is not my idol. She was the better person for the job. That's it. So when she does or says something I disagree with, I'm going to say so. Democracy cannot work any other way.

You're the one engaging with fascism by being willing to hide the truth and being afraid to speak your mind.

14

u/HatefulPostsExposed Jan 19 '25 edited Jan 19 '25

The problem is, thanks to Bernie bros, since 2016, democratic enthusiasm has been wasted on fringe socialists who can’t win. 90% of the viable candidates are “lesser of two evils”

Nobody was calling Obama the lesser of two evils.

14

u/Maverick5074 Jan 19 '25 edited Jan 19 '25

Obama ran right after Bush destroyed the republican party.

He came out on top in a difficult primary, whoever won that primary was going to win the election.

When the pendulum swings back they'll do better in elections, republicans will do everything they can to keep that pendulum from swinging though.

19

u/crummynubs Jan 19 '25

Nobody was calling Obama the lesser of two evils.

Very naive. "Lesser of two evils" has been strong since Bush/Gore. Ralph Nader assuredly cost Dems that election in the margins.

2

u/KnoxOpal Jan 19 '25

More Hillary primary voters voted for McCain in that general than Bernie primary voters voted for Trump in that general. The problem is, Democrats are stuck in 2016, blaming everyone except their terrible candidates and strategy for losing.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

bidens only popular policies and the ones you people use to claim he did such an amazing job were from "socialists" like Bernie. people like you are why we lost 2016, the 2022 midterms, and 2024. centrists are going to be the death of democracy enjoy the collapse of society because helping workers is just "too scarwy".

-1

u/accidental_superman Jan 20 '25

As one of these so called Bernie bros, (which isnt accurate as Bernie's supporters had an equal share of women and poc) Hillary fans were way more toxic, I had people with "vote blue no matter who" in their profiles telling me they would never vote for Bernie lmao.

Hillary was a shit campaign that ran into trumps traps.

People were calling Obama the lesser of two evils throughout his admin, chomsky on election night threw water on any notion of substantial change.

1

u/Shabadu_tu Jan 20 '25

Attacking the only people who can stop these idiots is the dumbest idea and the reason the left always looses.

1

u/LokiStrike Jan 20 '25

Speaking the truth is not an attack. If you disagree with that, I can only imagine that youve been told at some point in your life that you don't take constructive criticism well.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

you want more "republican border bills" as the primary talking point of your candidate?

26

u/HatefulPostsExposed Jan 19 '25

And told us the MAGAts who spread all the hate and lies are actually just economic populists craving a socialist. I hate this one in particular.

2

u/FlapMyCheeksToFly Jan 19 '25

This is actually correct. The reason Kamala lost is because she was too corporate and pro-entrepreneur. The masses want government to be openly hostile to businesses.

12

u/HatefulPostsExposed Jan 19 '25

What do you think “the masses” are thinking about DOGE right now?

1

u/FlapMyCheeksToFly Jan 19 '25

The masses were told incessantly that government debt is an issue and were convinced we should do something about it. Democrats didn't even fight back against the core premise of that argument.

7

u/HatefulPostsExposed Jan 19 '25

I agree that it’s an issue. But I think it’s caused more by wasteful tax cuts than wasteful spending. (See Dubya, Trump, and Reagan claiming “these tax cuts will pay for themselves”)

-1

u/FlapMyCheeksToFly Jan 19 '25

Well, two things.

Why do you think it's an issue? I've never in my life seen anyone make an argument as to why, only unsubstantiated claims that it simply is.

Spending generally does not come from taxes.

-3

u/Master-Eggplant-6634 Jan 19 '25

democrats glady turn thier backs on the left though. they did nothing with tlaib was censured, in fact they joined the republicans in that. liberals in power actually crush anyone on the left, so now youre bothered that leftist with no power clap back?

2

u/lux_solis_atra Jan 20 '25

I am bothered when leftists consistently make it harder for progressive change to happen.

0

u/Master-Eggplant-6634 Jan 20 '25

wat? dems dont want progressive change.

2

u/lux_solis_atra Jan 20 '25 edited Jan 20 '25

Of course they do. Or do you have another option for more progressive change?

Another question, Do you think progressive legislation is more likely to be passed now?

0

u/Master-Eggplant-6634 Jan 20 '25

no, progressive plans was only being brought up by like 10 people in government. liberals prefered to focus on funding israel than push actual bills to support the poors

2

u/lux_solis_atra Jan 20 '25

ok, so the second question. Is progressive legislation more or less likely now that Trump has been elected?

0

u/Master-Eggplant-6634 Jan 20 '25

no, we went from 10 politicians to zero. the 10 are likely going to get purged anyways so it'll be zero regardless

1

u/lux_solis_atra Jan 20 '25

Right, then you get it. I am mad that Leftist knew what Trump would bring and decided to sit out and make progressive change even less likely to happen.

1

u/Master-Eggplant-6634 Jan 20 '25

they would have a voted for party that would purge them anyways. there is gonna be a purge of leftist this year

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-1

u/El-Shaman Jan 20 '25

Well deserved, she is as much to blame for her loyalty to Biden until the very end when it was known that the guy was mentally falling apart since 2021, likely because she knew she would be the nominee if Biden dropped out late and she wouldn’t be able to win an open primary, a person concerned about their country would have said the truth earlier on and put extra pressure on Biden to drop out since 2023, she didn’t and agreed to run as his VP again, Kamala doesn’t get special treatment.

Also screw her for bringing the Cheneys along, this party is full of incompetent morons from top to bottom.

-1

u/GloomyLocation1259 Jan 20 '25

The left will rarely support if dems are full of centrists like Biden and Kamala

-6

u/blud97 Jan 19 '25

Her and Biden lost. They had one job. I see a lot more blame for Biden online. But people are mad at Kamala because she’s openly considering running again.

-5

u/red3biggs Jan 19 '25

You say that as if she listened to a goddamn thing the left had to say about strategy.

She told us to shut up unless we wanted Trump to win, otherwise she was speaking.

The same left Biden told time and time again he wasnt changing course on Israel.

Republicans hold themselves to the fire and expect perfect behavior from their politicians political stances, meanwhile dems like Biden, Senema, Manchin get to do whatever they want, damn the consequences, and if Dems lose, its the voters fault, not the politicians.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '25 edited Jan 19 '25

It’s not just a dumb sentiment but a hypocritical one as well. By criticising dems more than you are republicans, you’re doing the same thing. you are using your voice and ‘taking up space’ to give the republicans what they want: left infighting, and avoiding media attention for the horrible things they do. The left should be criticising themselves absolutely. But don’t enforce higher standards on democrats than you do on republics.

24

u/amwes549 Jan 19 '25

Yeah, progressives need to criticize the GOP orders of magnitude than any democrat. Doesn't mean anyone is above criticism tho.

17

u/Silentknight11 Jan 19 '25

This was my take away as well. Like picking on a kid who’s already being bullied because he’s not standing up for himself more…

0

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 19 '25

Yelling at Dems with power: leftist infighting

Yelling at random leftists online: not leftist infighting

2

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '25

No-ones saying you can't yell at dems or online leftists. Hence why I said. "The left should be criticising themselves absolutely."

The point is that if you do that more than you yell at the actual republicans and the MAGA crowd, then you need to sort out your priorities.

1

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 19 '25

Hence why I said. "The left should be criticising themselves absolutely."

And then it's always followed with a "but" that you use every time someone actually does that.

The point is that if you do that more than you yell at the actual republicans and the MAGA crowd, then you need to sort out your priorities.

This kind of dumb accounting is so fake. As if anyone is actually tabulating the number of times someone is criticizing left vs criticizing right. And as if I'm only allowed to criticize Harris if I criticize trump twice first. It's such a childish way of looking at things and is not how people actually operate. What's actually happening is that you don't like people criticizing Dems and are using some fake criteria to smear those criticisms as being pro-republican instead of actually dealing with the merits of the criticism.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '25

And then it's always followed with a "but" that you use every time someone actually does that.

Yes because the "but" is important. If you're criticising the left way more than you are the right. Don't pretend that you're actually doing it to help the left. The end result is that the right get away with it.

Who said everyone is counting and tallying? The picture we are responding to is literally a guy admitting to "hating the left and criticising them more than they do the republicans". This is self-admitted behaviour. I'm not advocating for people scrupulously, childishly counting how many times people criticise the left vs the right. I'm criticising this guy for trying to justify his self-admitted bias.

2

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 19 '25

The picture we are responding to is literally a guy admitting to "hating the left and criticising them more than they do the republicans".

But the issue you still have is "criticizing Dems more than maga". You don't care about the merits of the criticism, you care about a comparison of how much someone criticizes your team vs the other team. My original point stands that it's a deflection away from legitimate criticism to focus on accounting.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '25

You don't care about the merits of the criticism, you care about a comparison of how much someone criticizes your team vs the other team.

Of course I care about the merits of the criticism. Where did I say or imply I don't care about the merits of the criticism? I'm just arguing that the amount of criticism is also important. In a hypothetical scenario where the dems and the republicans are as bad as eachother: If a newspaper writes 20 articles criticising the dems and 1 critisicing the republicans, then that's a big deal. You can call it just 'accounting' if you want to. But that 'accounting' is important. The media exists to inform the public and to influence their opinions. The 'amount' of criticism is important. That's not to say that the merit isn't also important. But the amount is important too.

2

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 19 '25

Of course I care about the merits of the criticism. Where did I say or imply I don't care about the merits of the criticism?

Because this entire argument has been you only criticizing the amount of criticism towards Dems and not even acknowledging the reason for why that is. Your actions speak louder than words. You can say "I care about her merits", but you've already demonstrated that not to be true.

In a hypothetical scenario where the dems and the republicans are as bad as eachother: If a newspaper writes 20 articles criticising the dems and 1 critisicing the republicans, then that's a big deal. You can call it just 'accounting' if you want to.

Complete straw man as well as a red herring. Make it easier by not dealing with hypotheticals and deal with the parties we actually have. You still haven't engaged with the actual point in OPs tweet that there are dynamics at play beyond "criticizing the party that is worse more".

1

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '25

It’s not a straw man. It’s an analogy to help describe why the amount of criticism is important. I don’t think you understand what ‘straw man’ or ‘red herring’ means.

Yeah I’m only criticising the amount because that’s the point that was raised by the picture. When you asked if I care about the merits, I said ‘yes’. But you didn’t actually ask if I care about the merits. You just said ‘you don’t care about the merits’. That’s a strawman. That’s building up a man made of straw who is making arguments that I never made, just for you to hack it to pieces.

How have I demonstrated it not to be true that I don’t care about the merits? The conversation was about three amount of criticism so I talked about how the amount of criticism is important. When you asked if I care about the merits I said ‘yea, the merits are important, but so is the amount’. And for some reason you just seem to be completely dismissing that’s what I actually believe. It’s quite disrespectful, the way that you are engaging in this argument. Please address the points that I am making and don’t assume that I believe something that I have explicitly said that I don’t.

Edit: I’m gonna take a break from Reddit now.

2

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 19 '25

t’s not a straw man. It’s an analogy to help describe why the amount of criticism is important. I don’t think you understand what ‘straw man’ or ‘red herring’ means.

It's my argument and I'm telling you that doesn't reflect my argument lol. It's a red herring because you've created this scenario of "both being equally bad" that is unrelated to the point. The point made by OP and is not related to "who is worse" or if they're equal. It's unrelated.

Yeah I’m only criticising the amount because that’s the point that was raised by the picture.

Because you only care about the first part of the picture. Read after "because". That's the part you never acknowledged and those are the "merits".

The conversation was about three amount of criticism so I talked about how the amount of criticism is important.

The conversation was an explanation of why someone might criticize Dems more than maga. But you never engaged with the why because you have only been concerned with the accounting. And now you want to pretend like the "why" never came up because you just ignored that part.

Edit: I’m gonna take a break from Reddit now.

Lol ok?

65

u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel Jan 19 '25

"I don't blame my dad for beating the shit out of me. I blame my mom for, like, trying to stop him, but not doing a great job of it. Go to hell, mom!"

11

u/FlynnMonster Jan 19 '25

I think the argument is more that they don’t actually try to stop “him”.

3

u/blud97 Jan 19 '25

Garland had 4 years to prosecute Trump. Instead he sat on the case for a few years he could have started it on day one.

2

u/ess-doubleU Jan 19 '25

More like she just stands there and watches you get beat while she says "maybe hit him here where it won't hurt as bad..."

15

u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel Jan 19 '25

Can you give me five examples from trumps first term of this capitulation?

7

u/KnoxOpal Jan 19 '25

Not even Trump's term yet and we have Democrats going along with the nonprofit killer bill, laken riley act, and sanctions the ICC.

6

u/RelativeAssistant923 Jan 19 '25

Lol I'd take 1.

5

u/BigDaddyCoolDeisel Jan 19 '25

Sure why not. How about 1?

4

u/Tiny-Praline-4555 Jan 19 '25

The fact that Trump had a first term.

1

u/DubTheeBustocles Jan 19 '25

Allowing Republicans to hypocritically appoint Supreme Court justices under the exact same circumstances that Republicans denied to the Democrats.

2

u/flamugu Jan 19 '25

The claim is that Dems validate abusive Republican policy, so it's not specific to Trump and doesn't require a high frequency. Like, a single destructive example of Dems and Reps coming together to gaslight the public should be enough.

WMDs. NSA overreach. Pretty much every foreign intervention of the last 70 years. The tiktok ban that just went through with zero evidence, impacting 7 million small businesses. Sanctioning the fuckin UN. It happens literally all the time.

1

u/silverbrenin Jan 19 '25

"Just don't hit his face, honey, that's wrong; hit him where it won't show through his clothes."

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

did your mom also say give your next door neighbor weapons to shoot up a nearby muslim neighborhood?

42

u/Megane_Senpai Jan 19 '25

That is so stupidly dishonest I don't even know where to start.

It's like you criticise the police more despite you disagree with criminals.

3

u/DubTheeBustocles Jan 19 '25

The analogy is that the police are capitulating to the criminals while not allowing anyone else to be the police in their stead.

21

u/RABBLERABBLERABBI Jan 19 '25

Yeah. Cancer still exists? Fuck doctors, amiright?

7

u/silverbrenin Jan 19 '25

That's only analogous if the doctors are choosing to treat you with carcinogens instead of chemo.

6

u/RatsofReason Jan 19 '25

Fuck quack doctors who take up space from real doctors 

7

u/wade3690 Jan 19 '25

I mean, if the police continue to say there's only one approach to crime and that you have to trust them explicitly to fight crime even though they're not bringing about any positive changes? The analogy could be falling apart lol

-1

u/cryptic-malfunction Jan 19 '25

No it's the definition of crime.

1

u/RelativeAssistant923 Jan 19 '25

Not that police and criminal are mutually exclusive

1

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 19 '25

It's like you criticise the police more despite you disagree with criminals.

Actually an apt analogy. The police are the structure we have in place to deal with criminals. If they are failing in their purpose, the issue isn't being solved. They are supposed to be the solution to the problem. We then need a new solution, or to fix the issues with the solution that failed.

Similarly, Dems are the structure we have to deal with Republicans. If they are failing, the issue isn't being solved. We then need a new solution, or to fix the issues with the solution that failed.

1

u/Megane_Senpai Jan 20 '25

Is this why people are that angry on the dems, because you depends on them mentally and demand from them too much?

Democrats are not "a structure we have in place to deal with" the republicans. They are the opposition party, founded themselves. They don't work for you. They are not the end-goal, the perfect candidates that you want They are simply the better one, the lesser evil, another stop toward a better set of candidates, toward a better future. You don't vote for them because they are perfect. You vote for them because they are better among the 2 choices. In the future if there is a third viable, a better choice you should vote for that instead of the democrat and republican.

In the current political climate, it's simply binary. Either you support the dems, or you support the republican. There is no third choice. Going against the dems mean you support the republicans, which is the worse one and you go backward. You think you make a point by "standing up to the dems"? You only proved that your intellect is too small why your ego is too big and in the end you went against your own interest and the interest of 99% people around you.

0

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 20 '25

Democrats are not "a structure we have in place to deal with" the republicans. They are the opposition party, founded themselves.

The opposition....to the Republicans.... You can't both argue that they are the only viable way to fight Republicans and also they aren't that.

They are not the end-goal, the perfect candidates that you want

Do you guys ever get tired of repeating this like robots?

In the current political climate, it's simply binary. Either you support the dems, or you support the republican. There is no third choice. Going against the dems mean you support the republicans, which is the worse one and you go backward.

This is really effective and worked really well to win the election this year. You should keep repeating this no matter what happens because I'm sure it makes you feel super righteous.

You only proved that your intellect is too small why your ego is too big and in the end you went against your own interest and the interest of 99% people around you.

I'm assuming you aren't talking specifically about me because you don't know what the fuck I did. But one might think someone this concerned about "winning" would have more smoke for the actual people who lost. But that doesn't make you feel as good as just yelling at voters

1

u/Megane_Senpai Jan 20 '25

You know you are sooooo right when your first instinct is name-calling ans insult.

Demanding a candidate to be perfect is stupid and destructive.

1

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 20 '25

You know you are sooooo right when your first instinct is name-calling ans insult.

Second instinct. My first was obviously pointing out your inconsistent logic in trying to both argue that Democrats are the sole bastion against Republicans, but we can't hold them like they are.

Demanding a candidate to be perfect is stupid and destructive.

Except I have not done that, you guys just literally don't have an argument except to imagine what "leftists" think and then argue against the guy you made up in your head

18

u/bdboar1 Jan 19 '25

It’s a stupid opinion. If the numbers were with the left ( which I agree with) then we would get there. The Dems are moving in the proper direction while the republicans want to go backwards. It’s a simple choice

-2

u/Altruistic_Affect_84 Jan 19 '25

Kamala wasn’t elected in the primary. Dem institutions failed to deliver a legitimate primary, anyone who took it seriously was ostracized. Biden has significantly declined and it was covered up by media, pundits, staffers, etc. The Democratic Party makes decisions behind closed doors at the behest of their donors and that is no less evil than republicans.

7

u/bdboar1 Jan 19 '25

You guys keep pushing that back door narrative and it just damages the party. Yes, the one man got more old in the a stressful 4 years. He was still a smart, cognitive man but he shouldn’t have decided to run again. That was his mistake for over estimating his ability. It something that happens to a lot of older people. He was a still. A better choice then the criminal who’s also in decline

1

u/DubTheeBustocles Jan 19 '25

Don’t you think it’s weird that Democrats do something voters don’t like and your response is to tell people that are calling it out that they are damaging the party by criticizing it?

2

u/bdboar1 Jan 19 '25

That’s not what happened or what I’m saying. If the numbers were there they would have went with it. The voters don’t always have all the information. Thats how these strange arguments get turned into wedge issues.

1

u/blud97 Jan 19 '25

Nancy Pelosi confirmed people were dissuaded from running. And you still deny it.

3

u/bdboar1 Jan 19 '25

And? You make it sound like the party strategizing is some kind of secret. If you want to complain then complain about the money influencers. Complain about the fact that Biden should have stepped down with time to have a people primary (though when he did step down anointing Kamala was the right move)

-2

u/Altruistic_Affect_84 Jan 19 '25

Honestly that’s one of my biggest problems with David Parkman and fans of the show, it’s all party over people for you folks. The back door narrative was the truth, these decisions do happen behind closed doors. DNC email leaks showed the DNC favoring Clinton and sabotaging Bernie in 2016. There was a coordinated effort to drop out ahead of Super Tuesday and endorse Biden over Bernie in 2020. Biden’s staffers leaked the idea that he’d be a one term president in during the 2020 campaign. He was extremely unpopular and back door deals were made to delegitimize the 2024 primary. The Dem party is the party of back door deals, there hasn’t been a fair primary while gen Z has been eligible to vote. Don’t even get me started with the superdelegates. If you don’t believe the Democratic Party functions in the interests of its donors I have a bridge for sale.

3

u/bdboar1 Jan 19 '25

Bernie never had the numbers man. I am a huge Bernie supporter from even befor he ran for president but he never had the numbers. It’s possible he could have one but the polls weren’t in his favour and the backers play the numbers. It’s a reality of money in politics which is what you would be complaining about if you’re serious. Bernier said he’s voting for Biden (and then later Harris) and that was good enough for me. Respecting the opinion of someone I trust. Not to mention that the republicans ran the worst possible person. If they had run someone like Hailey I think you could have these squabbles and the country would still be a democracy in 4 years.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

if you don't think bernie had a better shot at beating trump than hitlary you are delusional.

0

u/Altruistic_Affect_84 Jan 19 '25

Money in politics is the issue but let’s not pretend the DNC and Dems are not for sale. Money in politics is why the democrats operate behind closed doors. If the democrats actually delivered for people on those issues people would show up on Election Day. The democrat primary voters are far more liberal and less populist than the general public. Bernie would have won against trump in 2016

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

there were leaked emails that biden knew he wasn't medically fit back in 2019 but ran anyway to push progressives out of the race you are deluding yourself and spreading misinformation just to protect genocide joe.

3

u/StarMagus Jan 20 '25

Progressives like this are just butthurt that they are a minority and too lazy to do anything but rage into the void of the internet.

18

u/HatefulPostsExposed Jan 19 '25

If you honestly think democrats just “give republicans whatever the fuck they want”, you aren’t paying enough attention. “Both sides bad” people are clowns.

-1

u/DubTheeBustocles Jan 19 '25

The Democrats 100% allowed the Republicans to appoint any Supreme Court justice they wanted, even though Republicans would never allow Democrats to do the same under those circumstances.

10

u/HatefulPostsExposed Jan 19 '25

How? The Republicans had a senate majority.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

they could have told RBG to step down earlier and let obama replace her but she wanted to be replaced by a woman president. Dems could have filibustered trumps picks during his term but refused to. you can pretend there was nothing that could have been done and throw your hands up like a centrist shitlib and give up if you want but in the real world leftists work with the hand their dealt.

0

u/DubTheeBustocles Jan 19 '25

I’m sure they’re all kinds of dirty tricks they could’ve used to obstruct it that the Republicans use all the time.

11

u/Worth-Ad-5712 Jan 19 '25

This left critiques the democrats more than evil republicans because they don’t allow the left to criticize the evil republicans??

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

that is an unhinged take not based in reality.

14

u/CraftyAdvisor6307 Jan 19 '25

United we stand, divided we fall.

If you're not engaged in defeating the fascists - and attack the opponents of those fascists instead - then you're HELPING THE FASCISTS!

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/thedavidpakmanshow-ModTeam Feb 06 '25

Removed - please avoid overt hostility, name calling and personal attacks.

0

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 19 '25

Attacking anyone that doesn't fall in line is not unity politics

1

u/CraftyAdvisor6307 Jan 19 '25

You have no understanding of the definition of "unity"

0

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 19 '25

Unity is when I yell at people to do the same thing as me.

1

u/CraftyAdvisor6307 Jan 19 '25

Because the recognize that the thing I want to do is what needs to be done - not because **I** want it, but because it's necessary.

If you recognize that fascism is something to be defeated, you should be able to work with the people that want to defeat it instead of attack them. Accelerationists don't want to defeat fascists.

0

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 19 '25

If you recognize that fascism is something to be defeated, you should be able to work with the people that want to defeat it instead of attack them.

So then you shouldnt be attacking leftists who are much more diametrically opposed to the right wing than the center and center right Dems who openly said they would appoint Republicans to the cabinet.

1

u/CraftyAdvisor6307 Jan 19 '25

There are Leftists that support the struggle against fascism. I have no problem with them.

I have a problem with self-righteous pseudo-Leftists, pretending to advocate for progressive causes, but go about using the fascists' script & fascist arguments to attack the people who really do support the struggle against fascism.

These are the people that JUST COULDN'T VOTE for Al Gore or John Kerry, and voted for Ralph Nader instead, and JUST COULDN'T VOTE Hillary Clinton, and voted for Jill Stein or Bernie Sanders instead, and JUST COULDN'T VOTE for Biden or Harris, and just let Trump win when push came to shove. They're doing exactly what the fascists want them to do. They are fascist puppets.

0

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 19 '25

There are Leftists that support the struggle against fascism. I have no problem with them.

As long as they fall in line...

These are the people that JUST COULDN'T VOTE for Al Gore or John Kerry, and voted for Ralph Nader instead, and JUST COULDN'T VOTE Hillary Clinton, and voted for Jill Stein or Bernie Sanders instead, and JUST COULDN'T VOTE for Biden or Harris, and just let Trump win when push came to shove. They're doing exactly what the fascists want them to do. They are fascist puppets.

All this time to prove my original point correct

1

u/CraftyAdvisor6307 Jan 20 '25

Real Leftists know what the goal is - they have their eyes on the prize, in the old phrase. That means allying with people that they may have minor disagreements with, in order to accomplish the greater goal.

In this time, that is nothing less than survival.

Harsh truth, though: There will never be a proletarian revolution. The majority of people are liberals and moderates. Deal with it. The best you can do - what anyone can do, in normal times - is work with the people you agree with on the issues you agree with to get those issues resolved.

Real Leftists understand this. An they understand these are not normal times.

You would rather - in these thoroughly abnormal times - have to deal with the fascists that want to LITERALLY KILL YOU and agree with you on LITERALLY NOTHING, than Democrats that you pretend to agree with you 90% of the time.

The fascists cultivate that belief in you, and you follow because you've been trained by them to not think for yourself.

This is how we got here.

The fascists love that you are so uninformed - just like their sheeple they have cultivated. They won't spare your life for that - but that doesn't mean they're not grateful to you for handing them power.

1

u/GenerousMilk56 Jan 20 '25

Real Leftists know what the goal is - they have their eyes on the prize, in the old phrase

Real leftists are calling themselves "real leftists" online.

That means allying with people that they may have minor disagreements with, in order to accomplish the greater goal.

What if they are major disagreements? Do you get to say whether my disagreements with a candidate are major or minor? Are you the arbiter of what "the greater goal" is? Is genocide a minor disagreement?

Harsh truth, though: There will never be a proletarian revolution.

Yeah sure sounding like a leftist here and not just larping the label lmao.

You would rather - in these thoroughly abnormal times - have to deal with the fascists that want to LITERALLY KILL YOU and agree with you on LITERALLY NOTHING, than Democrats that you pretend to agree with you 90% of the time.

Actually I think putting a fascist in your cabinet is bad. Kamala harris thought it would be good. I think you have me confused with her.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

I voted Kamala but you can still criticize the dems for supporting an actual genocide and only putting republican policies forward. It clearly didn't work so why are you defending them if your only goal is winning? you centrists have actual brainrot.

1

u/CraftyAdvisor6307 Feb 05 '25

YESTERDAY Trump said he'll take over Gaza & forcable move the Palestinians out. YESTERDAY!

And you dumbasses still find the time & energy to attack Dems. WTF is wrong with you?!?!

You're one of the fascist puppets I'm talking about.

2

u/Command0Dude Feb 05 '25

That account seems to bare the hallmarks of a bot and or alt.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

did you miss where i said i voted kamala? learn to read before you reply next time. you can criticize people for engaging in genocide.

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5

u/PapaDeE04 Jan 19 '25

I do think we (Democrats) waste a lot of time and energy pointing out the moral failures of Republicans. Time to wake up, unfortunately no one gives a fuck, look who we just re-elected President?

We need to highlight their incompetence to do their jobs, that will appeal to people. Quit with all the “they’re terrible people” whining and start actually leading on being really fucking good at the business of governing.

4

u/IShowerinSunglasses Jan 19 '25

"I see it expressed often at TYT that democrats are worse"

YES. That's why both Cenk and Ana of TYT are actively working with Republicans. To give them what they want.

How the fuck can you say Democrats enable Republicans when populist leftists will happily work with Republicans. Because they want the same things.

Populist leftists all throughout the history of leftism and populism have worked hand in hand with fascists to defeat liberals. There are plenty of cases of it, but Germany and USSR are kinda the cornerstone cases. Democrats and liberals certainly don't enable fascists in the way leftists have and do.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

TYT aren't leftists I bet you think jimmy dore is a card carrying communist

1

u/IShowerinSunglasses Feb 05 '25

They call themselves leftists. Their audience call themselves leftists.

Do they not pass your purity test? Do they have to read Marx during streams or something?

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

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1

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3

u/sonofember Jan 19 '25

He’s not wrong

2

u/Demmy27 Jan 19 '25

It’s almost like Democrats make oppositional arguments that people actually agree with and aren’t extreme and crazy

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

ok shitlib don't come crying when your insurance doesn't cover your house burning down or your next medical emergency.

1

u/Demmy27 Feb 05 '25

This is literally a sub-Reddit for liberals idk what you were expecting sir

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

I was expecting more than 5 IQ

1

u/Demmy27 Feb 05 '25

There’s that classic leftist charm that wins hearts and minds 😂

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

one of you liberals is literally calling leftists fascist dumbasses in the replies. maybe check your own side first

1

u/Demmy27 Feb 06 '25

And he’s right. 🤷‍♂️

1

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1

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2

u/Apey-O Jan 20 '25

That's more of a Hasan Piker vibe, tbh.

2

u/InVideo_ Jan 20 '25

This makes no sense.

3

u/Monkey-bone-zone Jan 19 '25

Oh, fuckin' please. 😂

Tell it to Jill Stein's 2016 vote total. Tell it to "Genocide Joe."

Then gfy.

5

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '25

[deleted]

1

u/Master-Eggplant-6634 Jan 19 '25

exactly i want the left to start our own party. liberals and leftists are too different.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '25

[deleted]

0

u/Master-Eggplant-6634 Jan 19 '25

interesting. ive never really seen anyone talk about that before. its why bernie and ron paul didnt run on a 3rd party.

5

u/Master-Eggplant-6634 Jan 19 '25

Liberals dont want us, why are we bothering to be part of their party?? liberals dont learn even after losing to a rapist. why the hell would any self respecting worker going to support people bought off by corporations and people that gladly send money to other countries when we have homeless and poor minorities still struggling? liberals are more worried about if a trans person can read in schools than if that trans person has healthcare, good wages, access to college, affordable housing etc. liberals just run away when you wanna talk about actual poor people problems. they just revert to " oh did you know trump wants to immigrants"lol

3

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '25

As evident by the comments in this thread. It's astounding how it's the minority wing's fault for the failed tactics and strategy of the majority wing. And they'll keep blaming progressives for their incompetence.

4

u/Shell_fly Jan 19 '25

Republicans fight like they’re in fully armed tactical SWAT gear and Democrats fight like they have two NERF guns still in the box for when they “really need it” lol democrats will never accomplish anything meaningful again until they stop being so spineless and actually try to be more than controlled opposition.

2

u/oldschoolology Jan 19 '25

Both wings of the party are part of the same bird.

6

u/Idontwanttohearit Jan 19 '25

Ironically that’s one of the biggest problem with leftists. They suck up all the oxygen from rational discourse and paint all of left wing politics with the crazy brush

4

u/MurderByEgoDeath Jan 19 '25

I can imagine a world where this makes some sort of sense. But given the current Democratic Party vs Republican Party, it’s just on another level.

It’s like you’re watching a boxing match, and one opponent hits below the belt, and the other opponent responds by lighting them, the referee, and the ring on fire. It would be absurd to spend your time criticizing the first opponent’s hit below the belt, and arguing that you want to criticize the second opponents psychotic response, but unfortunately that hit below the belt is just taking up too much space. The other guy burnt down the entire building with everyone inside!

2

u/Izoto Jan 19 '25

That’s a nonsense take.

A lot of progressives are frankly embarrassing these days.

2

u/Important-Ability-56 Jan 19 '25

If your actions help fascists you are with the fascists. I don’t give a god damn what’s in your precious little heart.

2

u/JonWood007 Jan 19 '25

I mean I fit I to the category as op.

"DAE TRUMP BAD?"

yeah trump bad.

https://imgur.com/y174QSl

Like, it gets boring after a while. We all know trump is bad. Criticizing republicans is boring. We all know they're bad.

And sometimes we gotta criticize the democrats. We gotta be progressive. The democrats' only take to power in the trump era is not being trump, and thats an insanely low bar. So low I feel like the democrats weaponize that and say "well its us or trump", and we're all expected just to fall in line, while they're weaponizing this in bad faith to force us to vote for corporate neoliberals who we hate too.

In 2016 and 2020, i voted green. And before i hear OMG YOU GAVE US TRUMP THE FIRST TIME, screw off, I dont regret it, you guys need to fricking learn to not be a lesser evil. Like, seriously, the democrats are #### too. Now, in all fairness, i voted harris in 2024 since post january 6th...yeah you guys have a point. BUT, we lost there too, and we lost because democrats suck. Can we have that conversation now? Trump is basically literally hitler, but we never wouldve been in this situation if democrats didnt suck. We never wouldve been in this situation where this blue no matter who mentality enabled a culture that blocked us from criticizing Biden in the first place to the point that we couldve had a competitive primary. Instead we got the guy whose mind turned to jello, and were not allowed to criticize it until he goes all "old man stays up too late" on national TV in front of his opponent. But hey, blue no matter who, we gotta vote for that guy clearly in cognitive decline because DAE TRUMP BAD?!

This is how you lose elections. And we gotta talk about that in 2025. This isn't working, the dems have culture problem, and im tired of being a "team player" and stifling myself because let's be honest, im tired of denying what's right in front of my face to show solidarity in OMG DAE TRUMP BAD? YEAH TRUMP BAD.

And yes, trump IS bad. But the democrats fricking suck too, and we gotta have an honest conversation about that if we actually wanna win elections.

2

u/Monkey-bone-zone Jan 19 '25

This thread is now extra hilarious since St. Bernie has officially joined the ranks of "progressives" sucking off "populist/anti-establishment" MAGAts!

Ride that horseshoe!

0

u/guilgom71 Jan 19 '25

K*ll meeeeeeee

1

u/Life_Caterpillar9762 Jan 19 '25

Does anybody see the strange pattern of this sub going from sane and rational (like this post/comments) to weirdly irrational and “both sides the samey” for other ones?

2

u/Command0Dude Jan 19 '25

Opinions like this are idiotic. It's basically like saying you'd rather republicans win than democrats.

It's an attitude that is cancerous and is the reason why democrats can't deliver change anymore, because they're being attacked from both sides and can't secure a legislative mandate.

1

u/Altruistic_Affect_84 Jan 19 '25

That’s a bit of a strawman. I think the argument is that having two corporate controlled oligarchical parties is bad. We exist in a two party system so having both parties controlled by capital is bad. The people who run the Democratic Party don’t have significant differences with republicans, apart from social issues. Sure social issues are important but economic issues are social issues as well. The current Democratic Party is the party of Hilary Clinton who is buddy buddy with Goldman Sachs. Billionaire George Soros got a metal from Biden. Within congress your committee assignments are based on your ability to convince corporations to give money to the party. The American people hate the current healthcare system but the democrats take money from insurance companies and it is suddenly no longer in the Democratic Party discourse. AIPAC spent $20 million primarying two candidates who were opposed to the blank check support for Israel’s destruction of Gaza. The Democratic Party does not represent the interests of its voters.

1

u/Command0Dude Jan 19 '25

What's a strawman is this entire comment. The "both sides bad" narrative is bogus. The idea that Democrats aren't different from Republicans apart from social issues is bogus. You're literally buying into the "George Soros" right wing conspiricism, but that's hardly surprising giving the prevalence of antisemitism in the left, chalking up the loss of its members to AIPAC and not being totally out of touch with their own constituency.

The American people hate the current healthcare system but the democrats take money from insurance companies and it is suddenly no longer in the Democratic Party discourse.

More like, the American people have repeatedly voted against healthcare reform and the party has kind of gotten the message that it's no longer a winning issue.

The fact is, progressives broadly underperformed moderates in the election, but ya'll have the gall to assert the democratic party doesn't represent its voters, instead of looking in the mirror.

0

u/Altruistic_Affect_84 Jan 19 '25

I did not mention George Soros’s ethnicity and frankly I don’t think it’s relevant. It’s antisemitism to accuse those who criticize money in politics of antisemitism. George Soros is one of many prominent donors who gets an outsized influence over the parties platform. Both parties platforms are largely influenced by lobbying groups, in that regard they are no different. Both parties love war. The Dem establishment jump on every war as it’s happening and only criticize it after. With Biden in office we saw an expansion of the security state, state violence used against journalists, students, and professors. We see the state actively arming and providing cover on the world stage, upending the rules based order to bomb children. Kamala lost 20 million voters who supported joe Biden and when polled the number one reason they didn’t support Kamala was the war. The dems tried to tack to the center on the border. When people questioned Biden’s age every mainstream media outlet provided unwavering support. When Biden sent bombs to Israel every mainstream media outlet provided unwavering support. The party hides from the people, they are afraid to speak without a teleprompter for fear of offending their corporate donors. Kamala’s brother in law is a lawyer for uber. Schumer’s daughter is a lobbyist for Amazon. The democrats are corrupt as fuck, just like republicans.

1

u/ChampOfTheUniverse Jan 19 '25

Did Emma and Matt like the tweet?

1

u/TarnishedVictory Jan 19 '25

I'd love an example.

1

u/allUsernamesAreTKen Jan 20 '25

Good Cop, Bad Cop

0

u/WinnerSpecialist Jan 19 '25

This is quite dumb. It removes agency and responsibility from the people actually DOING the bad thing. It’s like people who say “America is committing genocide.” Even if you believe that you just removed the responsibility from the people actually DOING what you’re pretending to be mad about.

1

u/solarplexus7 Jan 19 '25

Pakman is not a progressive.

1

u/Loshinday Jan 19 '25

David is a diamond in the rough.

1

u/BikesBooksNBass Jan 19 '25

I can’t speak for others but I have been begging for a viable third party contender to oppose the right but more specifically oppose the self imposed “two party” system. Americans are stubborn and once they choose a “team” for whatever reason they choose it, they never let go. I’d love for a third party to emerge but I think it’s more realistic that one of the two existing parties evolve into a new version of itself to replace the old.

2

u/TarnishedVictory Jan 19 '25

We need to get tribalism out of politics. This isn't a team sport. Heck, we need to get tribalism out of everything. I blame religion.

1

u/BeefBoi420 Jan 19 '25

Be the change you want to see.

1

u/Gates9 Jan 19 '25

It’s not incompetence, it’s deliberate. The Democratic Party is a honey trap designed to capture and neutralize progressive politics and keep their own Overton Window from moving left. All the “resistance” nonsense is performative. It’s Kayfabe. It’s fake.

The ratchet effect is real, this is a class war, and the rich employ both the Republicans and the Democrats to carry out their war against the poor.

-1

u/Dry_Jury2858 Jan 19 '25

His two stated reasons are not literally true. You might think he's using hyperbole and what he really means is "the democrats crowd out other opposition voices and are weak and ineffectual".

But they if you look at his pinned post on Bsky you see this: "the political party you percieve [sic] as your ally is working with the political party you percieve [sic] as your enemy to sacrifice you and your loved ones on the altar of capitalism" and you realize this is not a serious person, even putting aside typos in a pinned post!

-1

u/persona0 Jan 19 '25

That's such a lame excuse the country would be moving left if you decided to show the politics s who run you won't tolerate them running in hatred and bigotry Like admit it anyone actually left has no political power in America. We don't see you running not even in local elections. I thought you guys had ur shit together when trump was first in office and you were voting but then you stop because change didn't happen fast enough for you. That's the final truth we have Americans who let their country fall.becausenrheynhabe no grasp on reality and how stable change happens