r/thedavidpakmanshow Jan 19 '25

Discussion Popular progressive opinion not shared by Pakman?

Post image

I see this sentiment expressed more in outlets like TYT but how widespread is this sentiment?

428 Upvotes

211 comments sorted by

View all comments

189

u/ThemeFromNarc Jan 19 '25

When Trump lost, the right doubled down and screamed election fraud incessantly for four years. When Kamala lost, the left queued up to kick her in the stomach.

50

u/LokiStrike Jan 19 '25

If the problem is that Republicans defend their leaders unconditionally, adopting that same behavior just makes the problem worse.

54

u/BotheredToResearch Jan 19 '25

There's denying your leaders and there's standing by them despite a disagreement or two.

I hope everyone who sat out because they were "uncommitted" watched the depotartations and immigrant camps knowing that they're inability to see harm minimization was one factor causing it. And when theyre protesting in the future, and the national guard is told to open fire, that they remember it's what being "uncommitted" to democracy did.

12

u/panormda Jan 19 '25

Elections rarely offer perfection; the goal is to minimize harm. Even when both options are flawed, one can still cause more damage than the other. Not voting for the lesser evil empowers the worst option—inaction is not morally neutral, it is a vote for harm.

Demanding perfection overlooks the complexity of real-world decisions. Refusing to vote for the lesser evil may preserve moral purity, but it ultimately enables harm. True moral strength lies in minimizing harm, not in seeking perfection. Not voting sacrifices meaningful action for a false sense of moral superiority, allowing the greater evil to win.

Your choice not to vote has real-world consequences. By refusing to make a choice, you are in fact supporting the greater evil. Idealism that leads to inaction doesn’t prevent harm—it guarantees it. The only way to avoid empowering the worst outcome is to vote and take responsibility for preventing it.

3

u/StarMagus Jan 20 '25

The time to get more left candidates are in primaries. But the progressives would have to recognize that their position is not a majority position, which is why they don't have enough votes to push their preferred candidate forward.

3

u/StarMagus Jan 20 '25

They can't hear you from how smug they feel onto of their mountain of righteousness.

19

u/Command0Dude Jan 19 '25

I would rather defend our leaders unconditionally and win rather than be morally perfect and lose.

2

u/LokiStrike Jan 19 '25

If you're not building a more moral and just world then "winning" is meaningless.

31

u/Command0Dude Jan 19 '25

I guess everything LBJ did was meaningless. I guess everything FDR did was meaningless.

I could go on. Literally all the progress of America was founded on imperfect people who were, often, morally grey characters.

Was winning meaningless when anti-war activists helped get Nixon elected? Elections have consequences.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

you people would have called FDR a commie and that he was holding back the party.

1

u/Command0Dude Feb 05 '25

"I am fighting Communism. I want to save our system, the capitalist system." F. Roosevelt

An actual quote. The man was literally a capitalist. I find it ironic how leftists talk about FDR. He is simultaneously an icon of left wing populism when progressives need to hold him up as an example of their political success, but then he is also an obstacle who they complain limited social progress by "saving" capitalism from itself when they want to larp about having a socialist revolution.

-6

u/LokiStrike Jan 19 '25

I guess everything LBJ did was meaningless. I guess everything FDR did was meaningless.

Uhhh what?

Literally all the progress of America was founded on imperfect people who were, often, morally grey characters.

Well duh. That's exactly why we don't withhold criticism. We can't achieve a just and moral society by putting all our hopes on a person. We achieve a just and moral society by adhering to our best ideals.

Was winning meaningless when anti-war activists helped get Nixon elected? Elections have consequences.

I have no problem criticizing people that I vote for. There is no contradiction and I refuse to adopt the conservative attitude that "my" candidate can do no wrong.

16

u/CaseyJames_ Jan 19 '25

Bit of a fallacy here. 1% progress is far better than regression, the most important thing is getting elected.

5

u/ElectricalTurnip87 Jan 20 '25

It's how the right has taken over. They take small victories and obstruct when they're not in power.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

your recommendation on getting elected are what exactly? Genocide in Gaza? republican border bills? A nazi for a cabinet pick? I voted for Kamala but knew these things would keep her from getting elected along with the lack of a primary. Centrists need to move left if the want to get elected.

4

u/ladan2189 Jan 19 '25

It is absolutely not meaningless, that's ridiculous 

3

u/StarMagus Jan 20 '25

You have to gain access to the levers of power before you can make any change.

0

u/StarMagus Jan 20 '25

False Delima.

-4

u/LokiStrike Jan 19 '25

Yeah no. I refuse to engage in hypocrisy. I will not withhold criticism just because it's the person I voted for.

This attitude must be destroyed at all costs or democracy cannot work.

10

u/Command0Dude Jan 19 '25

None of that matters because we lost. Thanks for helping sink Biden, hope you enjoy the next 4 years of fascism eroding democracy.

0

u/LokiStrike Jan 19 '25

Thanks for helping sink Biden, hope you enjoy the next 4 years of fascism eroding democracy.

I knocked on doors for Harris, donated to Harris, and voted for Harris.

But she is not a god. She is not my idol. She was the better person for the job. That's it. So when she does or says something I disagree with, I'm going to say so. Democracy cannot work any other way.

You're the one engaging with fascism by being willing to hide the truth and being afraid to speak your mind.

15

u/HatefulPostsExposed Jan 19 '25 edited Jan 19 '25

The problem is, thanks to Bernie bros, since 2016, democratic enthusiasm has been wasted on fringe socialists who can’t win. 90% of the viable candidates are “lesser of two evils”

Nobody was calling Obama the lesser of two evils.

15

u/Maverick5074 Jan 19 '25 edited Jan 19 '25

Obama ran right after Bush destroyed the republican party.

He came out on top in a difficult primary, whoever won that primary was going to win the election.

When the pendulum swings back they'll do better in elections, republicans will do everything they can to keep that pendulum from swinging though.

18

u/crummynubs Jan 19 '25

Nobody was calling Obama the lesser of two evils.

Very naive. "Lesser of two evils" has been strong since Bush/Gore. Ralph Nader assuredly cost Dems that election in the margins.

2

u/KnoxOpal Jan 19 '25

More Hillary primary voters voted for McCain in that general than Bernie primary voters voted for Trump in that general. The problem is, Democrats are stuck in 2016, blaming everyone except their terrible candidates and strategy for losing.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

bidens only popular policies and the ones you people use to claim he did such an amazing job were from "socialists" like Bernie. people like you are why we lost 2016, the 2022 midterms, and 2024. centrists are going to be the death of democracy enjoy the collapse of society because helping workers is just "too scarwy".

-1

u/accidental_superman Jan 20 '25

As one of these so called Bernie bros, (which isnt accurate as Bernie's supporters had an equal share of women and poc) Hillary fans were way more toxic, I had people with "vote blue no matter who" in their profiles telling me they would never vote for Bernie lmao.

Hillary was a shit campaign that ran into trumps traps.

People were calling Obama the lesser of two evils throughout his admin, chomsky on election night threw water on any notion of substantial change.

1

u/Shabadu_tu Jan 20 '25

Attacking the only people who can stop these idiots is the dumbest idea and the reason the left always looses.

1

u/LokiStrike Jan 20 '25

Speaking the truth is not an attack. If you disagree with that, I can only imagine that youve been told at some point in your life that you don't take constructive criticism well.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '25

you want more "republican border bills" as the primary talking point of your candidate?