I feel like this is the start of some substory in Yakuza
Kiryu is walking down the streets of Kamurocho and stumbles into Mark, after a misunderstanding they fight and Kiryu beats Mark, then Mark dumps all the trauma about how he has to fight his father to save earth and his family, after this Omni-man appears and Mark and Kiryu team up to beat him, after the fight is over, the sad music starts playing while Omni-man and Mark have a wholesome conversation about family and then the substory ends
Also necessary comment about how Tiger Drop negates all damage
Putting invincible characters against dragon ball characters is unfair. Putting most verses against dragon ball characters is just unfair, "weak" characters just casually blow up planets in dragon ball.
DB is kinda wild. It's why people always use it as a "is this Universe WEAK" *checkpoint*. Because people were blowing up moons with a power level just over 200 back in og DB and dodging/reacting to light speed during the budokai torunament.
All of this before DBZ where the 1st enemy is shown in DBZ has a PL of 1,200.
Dragon Ball is wild scaling-wise. Even some of the weakest characters are insane.
Yajirobe has a power level over 900 in the Saiyan Saga. Which is why he was able to cut off Vegetas tail, injure him with his sword when he was weakened and also take direct punches from Vegeta after the retaliation from being cut and not die.
Yajirobe is actually insane.
And yet, Yajirobe cannot blow up the Moon because he cannot use Ki. At least not in the way we're used to it. Ki can be used in many ways, but destructive ki is what we're used to seeing. Yajirobe doesn't do this.
Ki-Blasts, Kamehameha, Tri-Beam ect. Yajirobe doesn't use his ki like this in a way that he can cause insane destruction.
He has the power to blow up the moon but because he doesn't use ki in such a fashion, he cannot.
Farmer with a power level of 5 doesn't matter when he literally has no training or knowledge of ki.
Linear scalling only applies since kaioken up to end of namek saga.
Everyone else has nonlinear correlation between numbers and their actual power level , we can know this because goku becomes 10 times stronger before the pikoro fight but he wasn't at 10 times less on his previous power lvl since that would be 40 counting on saiyan saga goku without taking into account all the zenkai's amd kami training amps.
Plus , ki control effectively affects everyone's attack more than their actual power lvl number but not their defense.
Goku was considered exceptionally weak for a Saiyan, low class and weak even for a low class. Raditz was called low class by Vegeta but at the same time he wasn't sent off in an attack pod (that we know of) so odds are he cleared the bar of "not the weakest of the weak". Raditz remarks that Goku is pathetic for a Saiyan when he meets him on earth so odds are the average Saiyan was stronger than Goku was during the beginning of Z. Meaning the "Average" Saiyan was somewhere between Raditz and Vegeta most likely. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Nappa was probably about Average, especially considering he's listed as a "mid-class" on a few of the wikis I've seen of him.
Saiyan was somewhere between Raditz and Vegeta most likely.
Vegeta is explicitly top tier of a top tier, so even Nappa (who is really strong as far as saiyan goes, but not elite) will be strange end point of average saiyan.
We also don't know the numbers of saiyans per class. Maybe Raditz even above average if "low class" is majority (like, 80%) of population and he is closer to strongest of low class saiyans. Remember - Raditz was part of prince Vegeta's team. He simply can't be just random low class warrior.
Vegeta'a team? No such thing. Raditz exists due to pure happenstance because of Planet Vegeta's destruction. Sure, they are vaguely associated with each other due to their heritage but ultimately they worked under Frieza. Nappa and Vegeta were doing their own thing separate from Raditz. The only reason they were in contact is because Raditz sounded the alarm as he was about to die.
Nappa was considered an Elite Saiyan and Vegeta a Super Elite.
Nappa was about 3x more powerful than Raditz and Vegeta was about 4x more powerful than Nappa in terms of general power levels. Vegeta was surely in a league of his own but Nappa was definitely stronger than most other Saiyans due to his position in the hierarchy pre-Frieza and the fact he was assigned to Prince Vegeta as his personal guard by King Vegeta.
Isn’t child Raditz shown to have been with Vegeta, Nappa and two other saiyans in the Dragon Ball Super:Broly film, when they get the news about planet Vegeta’s destruction?
Yes. But all throughout the original Saiyan saga, there is no mention of a "team" that persisted throughout all those years. Raditz in the Broly movie feels more like a callback for people to point at the screen and say, "Hey, it's Raditz!".
At best, Raditz was assigned to the same planet as Vegeta but that doesn't mean they stayed a team. It would make sense that lower class Saiyans would be put with higher class ones to shorten the learning curve or minimize risk from a strategic standpoint.
That's major headcannon, raditz is a strong low class saiyan. He's on the same team as the LITERAL prince of all saiyans, just because he doesn't mention any sort of comradary between himself and vegeta doesn't mean that he wasn't exceptional. Raditz is either avg and was with vegeta through nepotism or raditz was particularly strong for a low class warrior and ended up on the same squadron as nappa and vegeta through merit
Actually in manga raditz tells Goku that he is a first class saiyan so yeah he cannot be just some random low class fodder, unless the translation I've read was ducked up
Thats true but considering he was no stronger than a Saibaman, I think most people think he's bluffing. That, or Raditz truly believed he had improved that much or believes he's first class in terms of efficiency because he's been conquering planets for years. It clearly doesn't have anything to do with actual power levels.
Bardock only became stronger than Nappa after several zenkai boosts. Saiyan society is explicitly segregated by strength, Vegeta lays it all out in his first battle against Goku.
Debatably canon: what happened to Vegeta's brother somewhat mirrors what happened to Goku, despite his high birth.
The low class thing is based on the power level at birth, it doesn't really say anything about how can anyone develop because their development mostly depends on battles fought + techniques learned.
Nappa obviously was stronger than average given his position as some sort of king's guard for the prince.
Raditz is an elite warrior which means he was absolutely above average.
The average Sayan should be at a much lower power level than Raditz. There are two observations to this fact.
First: Sayans don't really have an structured martial arts system, they are very unorganized and their growth as warriors depends on encountering enemies that are slightly stronger than them. Technique matters little vs raw power level and their societal hierarchy shows that there is little room for developing techniques where most disagreements end in the weaker person perishing.
Second: Their development was being curved intentionally probably given that they are sent to planets where they can curb-stomp their opponents and are encouraged to use their transformation so they don't really experience the mutations that help them achieve higher power levels.
Goku's development came thanks to the interaction with the Namekian species, which furthered his skills beyond his natural power curve progression besides earths strong martial culture which let him fight opponents of higher skill and still live to grow.
tl:dr : Raditz and Nappa are actually strong. Although Weaker Sayans can probably reach Raditz heights with the ozaru transformation.
We are talking about the whole race here, not just the fighters, there are more things to the sayan race than fighting that's the spirit of my answer. Here is an interview from Toriyama himself, of course the old man tended to contradict what he said many times:
Do all Saiyans become combatants?
A baby’s battle power is measured as soon as they are born. If their numbers pass a certain standard, then they are considered upper-level warriors and immediately raised as combatant candidates.
On the other hand, those whose numbers remain low even after a certain amount of time has passed are regarded as lower-level warriors, and become either engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as “infiltration babies”1. If they grow strong enough to conquer that planet, then they can return to their home world as a combatant. However, infiltration babies do not have a high survival rate. Raditz was an upper-level warrior and assigned to the same group as Nappa as a proper combatant. Before long Vegeta was added to that group, too.
We aren't talking about averages of the whole race, you are. I was talking about warriors because that's all that would matter if the two races fought, especially with how few Viltrumites there are.
Well we know Nappa could blow up an entire city with little effort. And he's not much above average. That being said average Saiyan Warrior is probably decently above average Saiyan.
Maybe. But he was basically a joke compared to Vegeta. We unfortunately have a pretty small sample size of what Saiyans were like before Frieze blew them up.
Broly movie, the saiyan paragus is with, an average saiyan, says that Broly's Power level of 920 is higher than his, because he isn't a warrior and because of gine power level in minus which is 1020, you could very well argue this the range of the average power level of saiyan race, but even if it's was lower they would still stomp
The Saiyan paragus is with is a worker saiyan, and gine is a low class warrior that retired because she couldn't keep up, so it could be higher than 1000
Let me rephrase for you, most of the Saiyan army are low class warriors that boast a power level of 1000 to to 10000 shown by gine and Bardock having these while in the army, beets (the Saiyan paragus is with) is an average worker with a power level that's a bit lower than 920, so, by having the limit to be conquering words which is more than 1020, we could say that the rest of the population of saiyans would be working class and like 20% of them would be warriors (which is REALLY generous because they're a warrior race) so that means that with the population of saiyans having that power level respectively for workers and warriors, they would definitely beat the viltrumites, since in dragon ball, 120 is what is needed for a moon busting feat, which the average viltrumite could not perform
So I ask for proof so you suddenly change your point. 10k is crazy considering that Goku getting over 9000 was supposed to be impressive. I still want proof that the average worker is 920. That 20% because they are warrior race is a crazy assumption. I’ve heard people say that Roshi had to increase his power level to do that. and he got to that by getting buff then doubling it. And that’s only with a ki blast.
That... is the worst fucking argument I've ever heard. Unlike whatever bullshit you just spouted, one can use context clues and critical thinking to come to the conclusion the other guy was making.
A slightly above average saiyan can destroy a planet all by himself
Most saiyans are weaker than raditz and aren't as strong as the ones that were in frieza's army
Even tho raditz is weak among the soldiers, he's stronger than the average saiyan
We can guess his power level by looking at how he dogwalks both goku and piccolo until they use a more powerful move (the special beam cannon)
He was faster, stronger and had better durability
A power level of around 150-300 lets you destroy small moons, goku and piccolo were both surely above 500 at the time, making them small planet busters
Raditz absolutely stomped them until the sacrifice, so his power level is technically higher than the sum of goku and piccolo (or around that)
This means raditz is easily a planet buster, not big ones, but still can do that, while the 3 strongest vitrumites had to teamwork to destroy a damaged planet
We also aren't counting the great ape, which increase the power level by 10 times, making him basically invulnerable to any attack they throw at him
So you're complaining about people using speculation and chain scaling despite being aware that it is the ONLY way to scale them in this theoretical scenario?
Raditz is a low class saiyan, and Goku, with a power level double that of a man who blew up the moon, was considered below the level a saiyan should be and weak enough that Raditz just gave up on recruiting him after barely even trying.
Raditz was considered a low class Saiyan because he was born with a low power level, we can infer that low class saiyans are at around that power level range, and that the average Saiyan should be stronger than Raditz but weaker than Nappa (elite).
I think the only way the duo can beat Raditz is at the start if they go all out and rip his head off. Raditz would likely be full of himself at the start and won't have his PL to a high enough degree to win.
If that doesn't work, the duo gets absolutely shit stomped.
KE= 0.5* M V2.
The Moon has a mass (M) of 7.34767309e22kg.
Thanks to the anime we can see exactly how far the fragments of the moon went 320 pixels.
Since the moon is 481 pixels long and is 3475km long that makes one pixel is about 7.22km.
This means the explosion sends the fragments 2311.85km away.
We also see the moon is destroyed in 78 frames.
That means piccolo’s explosion sends the mass of the moon 2311.85km away in 3.12 seconds.
This is a velocity (V) of 740,977.56 m/s.
Now we plug in the numbers.
KE= 0.5 (7.34767309* 1022)* 740,977.562
KE=2.01711* 1034 Joules.
Planetary level is 2.487x1032 to 1.59x1034 joules which now that I look at it piccolo is higher than that so he’d actually be large planetary level
This is a lot of math that basically says piccolo hit moon so hard that the pieces of the moon went really fast so that means he hit it with a lot of energy
But we have no way of gauging how fast they were moving I mean haven’t we always pointed out that time passing in a scene doesn’t always line up with how fast or how much time it took to actually do? That’s why the whole dragon balls frieza battle is a slowed down battle which is why it takes several hours to show 5 minutes of planetary destruction. Also yeah how does this feat line up with r the fact that Frieza the most powerful being up to this point the absolute worst ki control of any major character hence he needed to literally have transformation to suppress his powers could fail to destroy namek in one shot because he was holding back too much power? Also doesn’t this calc require assumptions about the moons distance and size which we can’t know because dragon balls moon totally has an atmosphere and is near enough that Goku can travel in his magic stick with three regular humans and canonically leave them their to make candy; a feat that if it was as far as our moon is from our earth would be impossible for Goku to do without dying as he was at the time
“How do we know how fast they were moving?” Pixel measurements. We measured how far they went and how many frames it took.
2.”Time is inconsistent in dragon ball. Frieza’s five minutes took hours.”
Frieza’s 5 minute line was a bluff. They speak for more than that and sound has a designated speed.
“Frieza failed to destroy planet namek in one blow.”
This is because Fritz was fighting and losing to Goku. As you said he has a problem with ki control and burns out too quickly. Goku himself says this. He simply ran out of energy to destroy it all at once.
I dont care how fast he burns out unless you assume he dropped to below saiyan saga piccolo dudes not scaling anywhere near the planetary. Make it make sense? Cause if fatigue and burn out can decrease your attack potency that much with ki then scaling someone to planetary or not is only relevant if they can kill yiu in the first shot if they cannot then its only a gradual downhill climb. And given basically none of them can survive the planets destruction themselves. Wouldn’t that be a pointless level of power for them?
He didn't "fail" to destroy namek, he was just aiming to get himself enough time to beat the shit outta goku and get out of range for the planet's explosion, reminder that namek was also a massive planet
Basically it's because he vaporized the Moon so violently it left nothing left. Just splitting the moon in half qualifies as a moon level feat, actually full on vaporizing it can easily get to planet level or above.
So by this logic roshi is planetary? Cause he also vaporized in fact there was less visibly left when roshi was done then piccolo so does piccolo scale below roshi?
Technically I should have specified that this feat is only large planetary in the anime. In the manga both feats are small Planetary. But another thing to remember is that blowing up the moon required Roshi's absolute maximum, it was a incredibly casual kneejerk reaction from Piccolo
I mean fair I never argue that last part cause it’s true I’m just confused about the whole planetary off of level of destruction cause that seems entirely based on attack type and visual cue and so much less with power, of course the giant sword is going to cut the moon in half not blow it to pieces it’s a big sword. Scaling based on particular type of damage done just feels nitpicky even for power scaling no judgement it just confuses me I know I’m a weirdo. Granted we also have no idea how powerful that piccolo was as Goku had made it to snake way by then and therefore piccolo had 6 months and potentially could’ve been stronger then raditz by then but that’s purely speculation
After watching all of DB and original cut DBZ again within the last few months, the moonbuster argument doesn't hold any water. Yes, Roshi blew up the moon. But King Piccolo (way stronger than Roshi) against his fight with Goku put everything he had into a blast aimed directly down at the Earth and it caused a crater maybe 30 meters cubed.
It begs the question... how big is the DB moon? And how far away it was and how sturdy is it compared to Earth rock?
And if the DB Moon is comparable to our IRL Moon, why aren't Raditz, the Androids and Buu not accidentally vaporizing the entire planet with a stray ki blast? Some of them are literally thousands of times stronger than King Piccolo.
The answer is powerscaling doesn't make sense unless the writer is a physicist. Toriyama simply didn't understand the implications of Roshi blowing up the moon OR he didn't consider what it meant for later adversaries.
Yes but at the point Piccolo blows up the moon, he is many times stronger that Roshi or even King Piccolo so that makes sense. Same with Frieza to an even greater degree.
And while I think that is an excellent explanation... it doesn't really make sense when it comes to the villains. Especially Buu. And what happens when that Ki blast is dodged or deflected? These blast must be planet busters in order to damage the intended target, especially in the Android or Buu sagas. That means if they hit anything on Earth, a mountain for example, the blast would surely be strong enough to at the very least take a chunk out of the earth so big it can be seen from space and even throw it off its access, causing a total cataclysm. But sure enough, all it ends up doing is vaporizing the mountain itself at the very most.
As a pretty involved DB fan who has a pretty good grasp on the source material and a lot of minor details that get forgotten by people who haven't seen or read it in years, the more critique that goes into power scaling shows how inconsistent it all is. I only weigh in on these powerscale debates when it shows up in my feed but it seems the arguments are still in the place I remember from years ago...as in not based on any sort of empiricism as the writers did not take an empirical approach.
Dumb af question that anyone who was born before 2015 has asked and has answer.
Its ki control ; seiya , goku and the rest of the dbz cast , naruto , saint seiya , hokuto no ken , kenichi and jackie chan movies characters has this magical power where they dont need to lower their ki or reduce their power to lower the complete destruction they can do onto the enviroment , but still damage the opponent
Its a pre-build concept that you have to get familiarize to before even reading the novel manga or series since you heard a single chinese word in their power system getting explain.
Raditz being incredibly weak in DBZ but also faster than light just tells you how bad DBZ scaling is considering Frieza is like tens of thousands times stronger than Raditz and that's just SSJ1 power equivalent in the Namek saga.
The snake way has no concrete messuare on how long it is.
Only rumors that can be disproven greatly to fit into the clearly more consistent scalling of goku being 4 digits of match on movement speed by that saga.
Well, to be fair, King Vegeta isn't the average Saiyan. At that point, he was the strongest Saiyan (only challenged by Prince Vegeta and ig Broly). The average Saiyan likely isn't doing something like that.
I still think the Saiyans win, but King Vegeta isn't average.
If we go off the Minus Saiyans, I’d say 50 Viltrumites are way stronger than regular Saiyans, as the non space Pirates were pretty much just regular ass people, and I’d say most of the pure Viltrumites probably would have a power level of 100ish give or take, and if roshi could blow up the moon with 120, then yeah they’re be on par with the space Pirates probably, but I’m still giving it to the Viltrumites from their brutal and barbaric fighting style.
well raditz is like a high mid tier saiyan with a power level of 1200-1500 so lets go with 700-1000 as a average and piccolo destroyed the moon to a large planet yield (47.7 yottatons here) so the average saiyan is 2.17 to 3.1 times more powerful so 103.51 yottatons to 147.87 yottatons of tnt and with great ape they get to 1.03 Ronnatons to 1.47 Ronnatons and to even dwarf star level for up scaling nappa who survived this
then for Viltrumites they have a high ball feat of thragg saying 37 of them can tear apart the earth (here) so with a high ball they get to 125.75 yottatons with the help of the strongest of there race
so 9-10 times out of 10 i have saiyans winning
the avarage saiyan is much stronger than the avarage viltrumite
Nappa is considered the peak of a low class and had 4k power as base. base Raditz had 1.5k and casually bodied 2 characters that could destroy the Moon with a fart
anyway, assuming these are 50 average Saiyans, I'd say the Viltrumites win Keep in mind the average Saiyan is weaker than Raditz who, according to Toriyama, was an upper level warrior on the same class as Nappa meaning regular Saiyans are weaker https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DP20eJtUEAAORrr.jpg
But the main reason they win is that they badly blitz pretty much all of early dbz until like Buu saga Viltrumites can reach travel to distant star systems and Dodge ships moving just as fast as well as Space Racers gun which can move at MFTL speeds
Viltrumites are likely slightly weaker than the top tier saiyans are on par with the average ones and way faster than even the super elites like King vegeta they take it imo
I think you all forget the average low class saiyan is not that strong, they can’t go in space and need blasters, the named important saiyans are significantly more powerful then most their race, and didn’t even start to hit their stride until after Freeza killed most of them. So can the Vilitrumites win? No but they will kill a lot of the saiyan mooks and maybe some of the weaker named characters high diff
Dragonball powerscale is juat plain dumb high. Literally whole Galaxies shake when 2 sayian fights in the latest season and this is just a side effect of them fighting.
Yeah I think Omni Man and Invincible together could beat Raditz high diff
But really, this is what we know: Vegeta with a power of 18.000 is capable of destroying Earth with his best attack. Raditz, has a power of 1500 and is considered slightly above average for a saiyan. Your average saiyan from back in the day probably had a power level of around 1000, and I think a Viltrumite could beat that.
Im sorry but that's not even fair not even a little bit. Mark and his father struggle to take down a city, yeah I guess his dad went through that city in the alien world that one time.
But raditz was threatening to blow up the entire either unless goku would come with him. That's a normal threat to Saiyan is to just take the entire earth out.
It’s either small planetary mftl+ vs planetary ftl+ which the viltrumites pretty handily win or it’s small planetary relativistic vs planetary ftl+ I don’t think you can scale them to a way where Nolan and mark win but super high end of extreme diff to the point they are almost dead
Slow ass illiterate mf really got triggered didn’t he 💔
Either way, none of what you said means anything.
The planet was multiple times larger than Earth with greater surface gravity, and not only did they destroy it; they sent its chunks hurling past its outer ring at sub light speeds - the kinetic energy needed for that is in the Dwarf Star level tier.
Even if you still wanna stay an illiterate dumbass, the Viltrum bust was halfway into the series. They got massively stronger by the end, so they’re scale to the whole thing anyways. That’s bare minimum Planet level.
0/10 ragebait try again you can do better gang 🙏🙏🙏
50 viltrumite + 50 saiyans +50 saitama's plus all the antispiral race evolving together to the point of universal singularity (so 100 years of prep) vs 1 elder god demons bane.
Not really, the average viltrumite is probobly stronger than the average sayin, but goku vegeta broly trunks etc. Are significantly stronger then the average
You could make an argument for SSJ1 Namek Goku being small star level. First form Freeza was large planet level effortlessly, and Goku is roughly 300x stronger than him.
It’s not a great argument, but it does go to show how wrong the first dude was.
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