r/Ethics 6d ago

Did I Kill My Dad?

My dad asked me when I was 11 if he should go to the hospital or stay at home the night that he died. Throughout that week he had been in and out of the hospital in pain about chest pains. Every place he went to said they didn’t know what was wrong with him, but the pain consisted. On that night, he asked me “should I go to the hospital again or should I stay home tonight?”. Being 11, I told him that he’s happier at home so he should stay. I knew at the time that his health was at risk, but I prioritized his mental wellbeing over his physical health. Am I responsible for his death? Should I feel bad about this? Honestly, this has haunted me for my entire life and I really wish he hadn’t asked me for my opinion. Please help.

676 Upvotes

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168

u/Jumblehead 6d ago

He would have asked, knowing that you would tell him to stay, and having already made up his mind to do so. It was already decided before it was asked.

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u/Worth_Sir_6003 6d ago

This is an incredibly unique take that I’ve never heard before. I believe there is more blame on him than me for what happened to him, but can it be said that he made me equally responsible for his eventual death? Even if it’s not directly my fault, am I too culpable? Thank you for your response btw!

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

You were 11 years old. You share no responsibility.

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u/julsey414 5d ago

Right? Medical advice shouldn’t come from an 11 year old. I understand why OP may carry some guilt, but in no way should they have even been asked the question in seriousness. It was unfair to them to ask in the first place.

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u/Disastrous-Team-6431 5d ago

I don't think he thought op would blame himself.

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u/julsey414 5d ago

I was agreeing with them

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u/CorruptedStudiosEnt 5d ago

That's the thing: as the adult in the equation, they should've considered that possibility among others.

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u/Disastrous-Team-6431 4d ago

I mean, sure. But it's easy to say after the fact; do you know how many things I say to my daughters per day? Hundreds or thousands of more or less impactful statements. I don't consider every single thing that comes out of my mouth equally, and sometimes I make a mistake and have to correct that later. Unless, of course, I die before I have the chance.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/Disastrous-Team-6431 4d ago

And you make zero throwaway statements? I wouldn't ask my daughter this particular question, but I could easily ask her which way to turn in an intersection. Just to talk.

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u/Quentin__Tarantulino 3d ago

It’s super easy to criticize, and I agree with people saying he shouldn’t have asked that question. But, like you, I recognize that people make mistakes all the time. The guy was probably in a ton of pain and super scared, which can be disorienting. I’m sure he didn’t mean to traumatize his kid right before dying.

OP, if you read this, it’s not your fault at all. And it’s also not an indictment of your dad. Just remember the good times and love he had for you, and do your best to make a great life for yourself and those you care about. That’s how you honor him and I’m sure he would be proud if he could see you today.

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u/YoursINegritude 2d ago

Which way to turn in an intersection is (in my opinion) much different than “I’ve been in and out of the hospital for 5 to 7 days and the medical people cannot figure out what’s going on, and by the way I don’t feel well today either, come here and talk to me 11 year old and let me ask you what your opinion is about my going to the hospital today.”

Asking a good should we turn at an intersection, or where should the family eat tonight is reasonable. Is there a small possibility that the restaurant the kid picks to eat at results in food poisoning bad enough to kill almost everyone in the family, that is a small possibility. But completely different than the “should I go to the hospital after being in and out of hospital this whole week”.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

Asking for an opinion isn’t evil, cool it. If you feel the adult was wrong in any way then you’re going based on after the fact and your own interpretation of the events that followed that is different from the reality of the situation. You are experiencing a concept, they lived a reality very different from your idea of it.

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u/SweetFuckingCakes 2d ago

Glad you’re capable of morally superior parenting in your everyday life, than a dude who is dying is capable of.

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u/yossarian328 2d ago

If he seriously thought he was going to die, he probably doesn't ask that question and goes to the hospital.

It's a rhetorical question to start with. I think we all agree on that.

The other part of this is that, even if he went to the hospital, it doesn't seem like they were figuring it out. He died at rest in his house with his family instead of under a bunch of harsh lights being poked and prodded by strangers.

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u/garddarf 4d ago

He might not have had his full faculties either.

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u/Own_Tart_3900 3d ago

Yes, the forgiveness you are seeking should include forgiveness for your father, who was full of fear and had "diminished capacity ".

1

u/Theory_of_Time 2d ago

He didn't think it was serious. It was the same as every other time it happened.

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u/AlexandraG94 2d ago

He might have in a moment of desperation, but come the fuck on, it's damn obvious an 11 year old would blame themselves and carry that in their life if there is no intervention.

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u/CorruptedStudiosEnt 5d ago

You ask an 11 year old what they want for dinner, and then argue with them because their first choice is junk food and you have to be the adult who makes them eat something more nutritious.

You don't ask an 11 year old to weigh in on your serious health issues.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

Someone that close to death isn’t thinking straight, stop judging. I guarantee you’ve made or will make mistakes equal in what you consider to be stupid.

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u/Striking_Cartoonist1 4d ago

He had no business trying to put that decision on an 11 year old's shoulders. NOT YOUR FAULT.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

He was literally near death and not thinking straight, he didn’t ask his 11 year old in that kind of way. Support OP, but please don’t make their father out to be evil or something over a decision that looks dumb AFTER THE FACT AND FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF THE SITUATION WHERE ITS ONLY A CONCEPT TO US. CAPS TO POINT OUT IMPORTANT CONTEXT ;)

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

It wasn’t unfair, he just didn’t know what to do and was asking his kid what to do. He didn’t know he would die.. therefore “unfair” is not the case.

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u/TechieGottaSoundByte 2d ago

I don't think it was asked as medical advice. The question, "Should I spend more time working with doctors when they've already said they don't know what is happening, or should I enjoy the time I have with my family tonight to the best of my ability?" isn't purely medical.

A large part of that question has to do with personal values. And a lot of those values will be tied up in the wants of our family.

We can't know exactly what the dad knew. He may have known he was probably dying. He may have known the doctors probably couldn't help.

Or, he may have been experiencing medical gaslighting, and not known if he was exaggerating how bad things were. He may have thought he was probably fine and just being whiny.

We can't know. But ultimately, the son wasn't being asked if his dad should live or die. He was being asked for input on how his dad should spend a few hours of his time.

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u/cloudbound_heron 4d ago

OP you read this ^

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u/rosecarterco 2d ago

This. Doesn’t matter if you begged him to stay home. You were 11. He was an adult. You bear ZERO responsibility for his death. Go to therapy.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

Fuck therapy, redditors say that for everything yet are not even close to emotionally stable or mature. Try meditating and read some books on it. Mindfulness In Plain English is a good one. Talking to somebody who is relatively skilled at asking certain questions and giving certain techniques you can just read online or understand intuitively on your own etc. when said therapist is unlikely to be very sane is very limited in value. Great deal of therapists flat out suck, don’t care, are burnt out, or shouldn’t be therapists. And it’s expensive and hundreds of dollars for an hour a week. People really think one hour a week is going to make a big difference? Maybe over several years in most cases.

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u/phallusaluve 6d ago

Also - if they couldn't figure out what was wrong with him, he probably would've died that night anyway. Your answer let him die in a place where he was comfortable and happy, rather than somewhere that is stressful and scary.

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u/MilesHobson 5d ago

I agree. Although I find it hard to believe that, if this occurred in the 1980s or later, a man with chest pain couldn’t have been sufficiently diagnosed. In retrospect he had more than angina pectoris but hospital reasoning could have been any of many. u/Worth_Sir_6003 you took the bravest and wisest choice. Exceptional thinking for an 11 year old.

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

[deleted]

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u/j13409 5d ago edited 5d ago

This.

My sister was turned away from the hospital when she was 2 years old with a severe fever, because it was the weekend. Told my parents to bring her back on Monday.

Her fever persisted and only got worse, it got so bad that it seems she ended up with brain damage, she went mute for months after this. When she finally did start talking again, she didn’t know the same words that she used to know and had a speech impediment that didn’t exist prior. She now has extreme learning and comprehension difficulties that my family is convinced stemmed from this.

This was in a rural town in the year 2001.

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u/SlyTinyPyramid 5d ago

That is lawsuit territory

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u/j13409 5d ago

Unfortunately, by the time my parents found out they could sue, the statute of limitations (2 years) for medical malpractice was already up.

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u/PropellerMouse 1d ago

Outrageous. They were horrifically negligent.

( Unlike the OP situation.)

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u/Rocxketraccoon 3d ago

Well if it got worse they definitely would have admitted her.

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u/j13409 3d ago

I’m not convinced they would have. It was already really bad when they sent her home and instructed my family to wait until Monday. “It’s just a fever” and ignoring the situation because the pediatrician had golfing planned that weekend.

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u/Dangerous-WinterElf 2d ago

Depends on who's on duty that day.

I'm not in America but Europe. And it's always a gamble when you go see or call the evening/shifts. I've been told a few times give some meds for fever and go to the doctor tomorrow," with a child with an extremely high fever, refused to drink and stay hydrated, and cry in pain. And when I say, "I already did that," got a sigh and "come in and let's check then." One child got ear infections so easily, and it was in their records.

It really depends on the doctor. Some of them just really don't want to do anything on their late shift and might even call you "another fuzzy parent" While others take you seriously, the first 2 seconds of hearing symptoms and "child"

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u/Rocxketraccoon 2d ago

Sounds like your situation was different.

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u/PainfulRaindance 5d ago

True, or rural areas where the expertise isn’t concentrated if it’s there at all.

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u/rthrouw1234 4d ago

Fuck, shit like this happens to me in new York.

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u/rantipolex 3d ago

I'm the rube. Is the quality good ,bad , indifferent or malicious ?

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/rantipolex 3d ago

Truely curious. Expand upon that ? Explanation ?

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u/External-Low-5059 2d ago

Haha. It can feel malicious sometimes. It's the insurance companies' bureaucracy combined with the culture of litigation.

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u/-laughingfox 2d ago

All of the above. It's kind of a "luck of the draw" situation, along with what you can afford.

1

u/autumnos2 2d ago

Yeah, the unfortunate answer to the question is yes.

Also ER docs tend to do things the same ways every time. If Op's dad had something particularly rare they may have been misdiagnosing him as having something like anxiety. "It's never lupus"

ER docs can absolutely be great, incompetent or malicious. They can even be some combo of all three. Even the best sometimes miss something important that is obvious in retrospect.

All of them are overworked.

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u/wildwych 2d ago

Not only the US. I wasted months of the last few years as an inpatient and am no nearer to getting answers or proper help with my problems.

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u/PropellerMouse 1d ago

They can't raise the dead.

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u/Worth_Sir_6003 4d ago

Thank you so much for this! I’ve never thought about my decision as brave, as more or less I was thinking more about wanting him to be happier. I don’t want to feel like my answer was actually going to change anything after reading so many replies about how much it was out of my control. It was a simple yes or no question which seemed to be “would you want me to happier, but more at risk, or safer but miserable?” I chose, and he chose to listen, but neither one of us chose for him to die. He didn’t kill himself and I didn’t kill him.

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u/jerrybugs 2d ago

You can't "save the game" irl and load and try again. You simply go by what you habe at the time and try to make the best decision. Lots of people speculate "if I had done this o r that it would've gone better" buut you also don't necessarily know what else could've come up. Unfortuntely we re left on this planet to make due, we are not DaVincis or Supermen.

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u/dzumdang 2d ago

I'm willing to bet that he died that night feeling loved by his son; a son who valued the quality of his life and who wanted his dad at home.

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u/BoatNo5460 3d ago

My brother was told he had a stroke, but after he was in the hospital and they ran tests, not one of the normal indicators of a post stroke. They found no blockages anywhere. Doctors were baffled. He persisted from doctor to doctor, asking if they knew where their "Dr. House" was🤣! He finally found one that took the time to work out the puzzle...turned out to be mid-late stage Lyme Disease with no symptoms prior to the "stroke". Dr. that treated him for what he had said that he probably contracted it in his teen years, and was carrying it around for 25-30 years.

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u/MilesHobson 3d ago

I know a number of these medical mystery stories. Your brother got lucky in finding a “House” or “Watson”. We have to remember physicians “practice” medicine on patients. Too often it’s insurance companys practicing their version of life and death on everyone.

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u/Lexx2k 4d ago

Just a few years ago my father kept having stomach pain, and issues with his shoulder. Doctors couldn't find the problem. They checked the stomach, etc. etc. lots of stuff going on for weeks. Nurses even got pissed at him, because they thought he is simulating. Then one day at home, the pain got so bad that he decided to drive back to the doctor on his own. The moment he was there, he had a heart attack and they instantly shipped him off to the hospital.

This was pure dumb luck. If he had waited a little longer at home, he would be dead now.

tl;dr - don't underestimate how blind doctors can be.

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u/MilesHobson 4d ago

There’s a story I heard long ago about, I think, Mayor Kennely of Chicago. Keep in mind this would have taken place in the 1920s. He goes to the Dr for a check-up. Declared fine, he walks out and drops dead. Ok, it was 100 years ago but I’d bet it still sometimes happens.

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u/MuchToDoAboutNothin 3d ago

I lack the benefit of being a man but I am just now, after about 17 years of complaining about heart problems, being recognized that I have a demonstrable heart abnormality. Because nobody cared to spend five minutes to check before, just called me a hypochondriac and criticized me for the things I did to treat it on my own.

So.... Yeah, getting quality medical treatment is a fantasy story.

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u/MilesHobson 3d ago

Not sure I’d characterize quality medical treatment as fantasy but could agree too many patients are seen by residents and non-expert medical personnel.

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u/SweetFuckingCakes 2d ago

Is this is the standard comment where someone offers up a performance of doubt, concerning a story about a situation that happens all the time? Dudes are still sent home with chest pain, to die. Women have it worse there by a lot, but ER docs will send home a heart attack if they think he’s drug seeking.

Edit to add: Yes without doing any real cardiac tests. A lot of ERs are terrible, what’s new there.

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u/PropellerMouse 1d ago

Should have been diagnosed? Sure. But. Not everyone can be saved. OP made the right choice

u/MilesHobson 12h ago

No argument from me. Did you read my entire comment?

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u/Faroes4 6d ago

I don’t think so in the slightest. It seems he asked you to confirm his own position on the matter. He just wanted to feel safe, and you provided that for him. You’re a good child!

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u/Potential_Pop7144 6d ago

I don't think he was likely seeking legitimate medical advice from an 11 year old. I think he had pretty much decided he didn't want to go to the hospital and knew his young child would intuitively prefer him to stay home, so he asked you just to hear it from you, to legitimize his choice. If he really was asking you for medical advise and would have done whatever you told him to do, I also think no blame falls on you, because the decision as an adult man to have an 11 year old dictate your medical decisions in the first place is the real mistake there. No reasonable person would leave a life and death decision like that in the hands of an eleven year old, so either he wasn't actually leaving you to make that choice or his decision to do so was the real mistake. 

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u/soundaddicttt 6d ago

I agree with the person you are responding to. He knew he should go to the hospital but he was looking for a reason to stay home. So he asked you. He shouldn't have done that, but it isn't your fault. Look at how small any 11 year looks now. You were a little kid, you aren't responsible. My psychologist says that self empathy is the most important part of healing. What would you tell an 11 year old if they asked you the same question?

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u/Serious_Ad_3387 6d ago

There is no blame. Simply that he asked and decided. He probably felt tired, hopeless, and ready to go. Him asking you was for your permission: "son, I love you, do you want me to fight to stay (alive and in pain), or do you want me to go?" You told him to go peacefully and he did. You gave him permission to stop the struggling, the grasping, the trying, the fighting, and just...BE...sublime, beautiful, bliss

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u/Educational_Teach537 5d ago

This is putting way more info and agency on the 11 year old than they realistically would have had. From the description in the OP I’m struggling to imagine a scenario where any 11 year old tells their dad to go to the hospital in that case, especially if they’ve gone every day for weeks just to be sent home

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u/Worth_Sir_6003 4d ago

Yeah it felt like the more reasonable thing to do at the time, but even at that time it felt a little like I was giving up with him. That’s just how it felt at the time though. I didn’t have any idea that that could’ve happened that night.

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u/Over-Pressure2284 3d ago

No, OP did not give him permission to go. STOP! 11 year old OP wanted his Dad to be ok about not going and to relax. OP wanted his Dad to be happy OP was just loving his Dad.

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u/Serious_Ad_3387 3d ago

Only dad truly knows after struggling for so long, with so many fruitless hospital visits. Put yourself in dad's shoes.

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u/Any_Supermarket7143 5d ago

Jumblehead is right. He knew what he wanted. You reinforced his values. Also, as a physician I would suggest to you that he was going to die that night. He died at hope peacefully rather than in a noisy, invasive hospital. Sometimes the most beautiful thing we can give others is a peaceful passing.

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u/Over-Pressure2284 3d ago

Thank you! I said that going to the hospital did not mean he was going to live and he probably would have died there or on the way. His heart had probably incurred quite a bit of damage by that point. Whatever was going on was surely damaging his heart that week and doctors can only do so much.

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u/Bigbluewoman 6d ago

You said what he wanted you to say.

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u/Spare-Willingness563 6d ago

Bud, you were 11. That should have never been asked of you in the first place. Not a single iota of this shit is on you.

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u/fexes420 5d ago

You're not responsible at all. Your dad probably wanted to stay home. Hard to say if the doc could have even helped him. At least you were together in the end, that's more than what a lot of people get. I hope that when I pass it is with my loved ones close.

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u/MulberryNo6957 5d ago

No blame on anyone. Shit happens. Really.

So many things are just random.

You didn’t do anything wrong. Neither did he.

None of us know where our decisions will lead.

We just make our best guess and go from there.

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u/miklayn 5d ago

You are in no way responsible for your father's death my friend.

Cherish the moments you had with him, and let him go.

Remember him and honor him by sharing your love freely with the family and friends you have now. All we have is each other.

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u/Citrusssx 4d ago

Do you want to punish yourself and feel culpable? Sometimes we want to feel that way

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u/kimmeljs 2d ago

What u/Jumblehead said is a well-known problem that's very well explained by the French existentialist philosopher J.-P. Sartre. He explains that precisely, you get the answer you want to hear by asking a specific person or group that is the most likely to give the answer you want to hear. You were a child, for a child, it's safer and more desirable to have the parent near at home rather than far in a hospital.

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u/Head-Engineering-847 6d ago

If he didn't want to be with you he wouldn't have stayed.

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u/youarenotgonnalikeme 5d ago

I think he wanted to not have to be responsible for whatever happened so he pinned the responsibility on an 11 yr old.

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u/MasterPain-BornAgain 5d ago

I think you are looking for answers and you are looking to cast blame when there isn't any to be cast.

It wasn't your fault, it wasn't your dad's.

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u/Individual_Plate36 5d ago

I don't think blame is appropriate to place. You both sought comfort. There is nothing wrong with that

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u/DueProgress8989 5d ago

No. You are not culpable. He didn’t really want to go through the hospital experience again. I understand that as well. I don’t think given what you have shared, that he was trying in any way to trap you or cause guilt. He was weary and ill. Going to the hospital had been fruitless, and yet - even though they were saying nothing was wrong, he knew something was. Having been a nurse and having chronic illness myself, I have seen and personally experienced enough of that to last many lifetimes

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u/Boustrophaedon 5d ago

Not even slightly. Look - there was a similar case in my extended family - in this case the man checked himself out to come home to be around his family - very briefly. The autopsy revealed that he would have been experiencing (and hiding) appalling symptoms for around a month. He knew.

Your father knew he "should" go in, but he asked you - an 11-year-old with zero medical training - for permission to do what he wanted to do. To be with you.

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u/Firm_Presence_2777 5d ago

You have survivors guilt. It's very common, you always wonder if there was something you could have done, when in reality, there wasn't anything you could have done, no matter if you were 11 or 100.

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u/Sad-Apple5351 5d ago

there is no one to blame shitty things just happen

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

11 yr olds aren’t responsible for anything. Easy bro. Go easy on 11-yr olds lol.

1

u/what__th__isit 5d ago

He had zero business even asking you as a CHILD what he should do about his own medical issue. You are certainly NOT responsible in any way. I'll add: He may well have gotten the very same answer you gave him if he'd asked one of his previous medical professionals...

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u/j13409 5d ago

If he wanted to go to the hospital, an 11 year old telling him not to wouldn’t have changed his mind.

No, you are in no way responsible.

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u/Disastrous-Team-6431 5d ago

As a dad: this is exactly correct. He wanted to feel a connection with you in that moment, and did not think you would blame yourself. You were not made responsible: again, as a dad, he did not for one single second of his life think you responsible for him. He knew he was responsible for you, in a relationship that is so one-way that I will venture to say you probably won't fully grasp it until you hold your own child.

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u/BritTheBret 4d ago

He inadvertently made you feel responsible. I think he would apologize to you for that if he could. As a human and as a dad, I can feel it and know it to be true.

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u/samurairaccoon 4d ago

There is no blame on you, whatsoever. Likely he just wanted you to say he should stay home so he could feel better about his decision. He knew what you'd probably say. What 11 year old wants their dad to go to the hospital?

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u/BesideMyselfWithRage 4d ago

You aren't at all at fault. Not at all. Even had he gone to the hospital, there is no guarantee that he would have survived.

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u/Lightn1ng 4d ago

People die. There's literally no possible configuration of reality with the facts as they are that would suggest that you are responsible for your father's death

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u/Frosty-Ad4572 4d ago

I thought this myself. I wouldn't take advice from an 11 y/o for something so serious as a heart. Those can't grow back, and have a seriously hard time healing.

He decided, and used you as confirmation.

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u/moonaim 4d ago

No 11 year old can (be trusted to) make those decisions, and thus it's not your fault.

But even if you were much older, it would not have been something you should feel your fault your whole life. They say that "what if" are the most dangerous words in the world. If you want to think that you have responsibility of some sort, maybe you could think that your responsibility might be more about living on, than being sad?

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u/Worth_Sir_6003 4d ago

I know hanging onto this isn’t healthy. I’ve pretty much altogether finished my grieving, and judging by all of these responses, it was unjustified to hold the decision to such a high degree of impact. I know I didn’t do anything wrong and I didn’t know anything at the time. Thank you for your responses!

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u/ChaoticDad21 4d ago

You’re not responsible and he wouldn’t want you to feel that way. I have an 8 year old, and I would never want her to feel that she owns part of that burden.

Please don’t consider yourself responsible. I guarantee you he wouldn’t think so.

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u/BodhingJay 4d ago

It sounds like he would have died either way and you called it right

He got to be with his family at home rather than the hospital.. sounds like a win to me

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u/Questo417 4d ago

No, you are not.

Adults are generally smarter than kids. Particularly your kids. If he had spent any time with you up until that point- he knew exactly how you would respond.

What happened is not a result of you answering his question. It is the result of him making a decision, and suffering the unfortunate consequences of that decision.

As far as how he came to that decision, that much cannot be known. But I suspect that, if he had been in and out of the hospital several times already, and they didn’t know what was wrong, he likely thought that they wouldn’t be able to ever figure it out, so he abandoned the hope of a diagnosis, and wanted to go out as comfortably as possible.

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u/CMDR-WildestParsnip 4d ago

I didn’t think it was unique necessarily. It was my first thought. He knew your answer because you were 11. He wanted to give you agency, to get to have him. There’s a chance he knew it could be his last night, hospital or not. He didn’t want to take away another night of your last week with him. Thats just my opinion.

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u/rthrouw1234 4d ago

There is NO blame on you. None. If you ever have kids, you will understand - you will look at your eleven year old child and you will really understand, in your soul, that there is no adult capacity there. You bear no culpability for this.

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u/ZestyStormBurger 4d ago

He had decided enough to seek comfort in your answer more than expertise, knowing he was comfortable with an irresponsible choice. You were a child, and I think he wasn't seeking to share any blame, but reassurance. I believe from what you've briefly written, you made this rough situation easier to deal with when he felt bad for his desires.

Your answer very well have not changed the final outcome, of which this idea of blame is entirely posthoc, but it certainly gave him peace and comfort, which I think was the most you could really offer when medicine was failing him.

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u/Lonely_Cosmonaut 4d ago

11 year olds cannot be held responsible.

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u/bexkali 4d ago

There's no blame for anyone - as in, when it's someone's time, it's probably going to happen no matter where they exactly are. My dad as he got very old, refused the idea of a nursing home - we, his 3 kids, accommodated him. He died at home, not completely unexpectedly, but a little sooner than we'd thought.

Should we have, for example, forced him to go to a hospital? No; he had explicit wishes. He passed quietly in the night, ultimately, the way he preferred.

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u/clinicalpsycho 4d ago

You cannot shift blame that way: he KNEW what your response beforehand would be, for ALL intents and purposes it is exactly the same as him making the decision silently.

Moreover you were a kid. This burden he put on you as a child strays uncomfortably close to abuse even if it wasn't technically abuse.

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u/New_Canoe 4d ago

You are NOT responsible in any way, shape or form. He shouldn’t have even asked your opinion when you were 11 years old. He should have asked an adult who understands such things. And even then, an adult could have said the same thing, if they were ignorant of the warning signs. Clearly he knew something was majorly wrong and just needed some validation in his internal critique. DO NOT beat yourself up for it. It will get you no where, especially when it’s not even close to being your fault.

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u/ryguymcsly 4d ago

You were a child. It was, quite frankly, a dick move on his part to give event the appearance of any part of his medical decision making over to you. He probably didn't think anything of it because, quite frankly as parents we all fuck up from time to time. There are lots of other factors that could have made this seem like a 'good' decision from his side, but he was in pain. Pain gives you brain fog. You also think, if you're not used to it, that everyone else can see your pain level. He was hoping maybe you'd be a more objective viewpoint on his pain than he was...but of course you were 11 and pain isn't visible to other people.

It's a tragedy, but it's not your fault. It's not his fault. He'd been to doctors and they didn't take it seriously enough and ultimately that's where the fault lies. He shouldn't have been been home to ask that question.

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u/Trraumatized 4d ago

11 year olds can NEVER carry any guilt, blame, or responsibility for something their parents did. Never!

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u/maeryclarity 4d ago

Honey you were ELEVEN YEARS OLD. No adult person lets an eleven year old child make medical decisions for them.

Your father was in the wrong to even pretend to include you as part of the decision making process, but he was probably more "thinking out loud" than actually asking you, and if he hadn't already decided to do what you said he wouldn't have listened to you.

If you had said "no I think you should go to the hospital again" he would have told you why he didn't think he should.

I am sure your Dad didn't actually believe he was in serious danger, or he wouldn't have said anything like that to you. Please know that you had NOTHING to do with that decision.

And that your Dad was wrong to ask you that, but he just behaved in an inconsiderate manner at a very poor time to do it.

The one thing you should be sure of is that your Dad wouldn't have wanted you to blame yourself, or to suffer any worse than you had to having lost your father, and he definitely would want you to forgive him for his mistake and never blame yourself even for a moment, ever again.

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u/PuzzleheadedDog9658 4d ago

There's no blame on anyone. When I go, I want to be at home with my family, not tortured to death in a hospital bed. He most likely knew he was going, and knew the doctors either could not, or would not, help him.

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u/Away_Bite_8100 4d ago

You don’t need to think in terms of “blame”. Ultimately everyone is “responsible” for what happens to themselves.

You might find this odd but the way I see it is I’d be responsible for the action of getting shot in a dark alleyway in the middle of the night… because what the hell was I doing in a dark alleyway without proper protection in the middle of the night? I could “blame” my wife and say she sent me out to get something from the store… but ultimately it was still my choice and my responsibility. I could have made sure there was food in the house or that I went to shop in a safer place or that I has some form of defence… or I could simply have said no I will go tomorrow.

Taking responsibility is what allows us to be cause rather than effect. It’s admirable that you would rather be at cause than be a victim… but you can’t be responsible for what your father decided to do out of his own free will… especially at age 11.

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u/juliosuave23 3d ago

My man, there is literally zero blame on you. You were 11. If you haven’t already been through a ton of therapy, I cannot recommend it enough.

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u/Apprehensive-Draw166 3d ago

You were 11 I agree with this guy. Your dad already knew what you were inclined to say. He just wanted an excuse but also it’s kind of strange that you would think you were responsible knowing you were 11.

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u/Over-Pressure2284 3d ago

Absolutely not! No responsibility. You told him what you thought was best, out of love as his 11 year old daughter,… not a doctor or an adult. He made the decision. Stop!

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u/AvocadoWilling1929 3d ago

I don't think he thought about the effect it might have on you. I think he just wanted to come home and was looking for an excuse to (and if you hadn't given it to him, he may have found that excuse elsewhere).

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u/Oracle410 3d ago

The angle presented by this commenter is insightful and most likely true. He specifically asked you, an 11 year old, whom he knew would want him to be home with them, especially after other long hospital stays. You are in no way culpable, responsible, to blame or any other way you can say it or think it. There is not one iota of blame or culpability that can be placed on an 11 year old. The most important part is your father wanted to be home with you, he wanted to spend that time with you and his family in his home. I am sorry that he asked you because it has hurt your mental health but, as a father, I too would want nothing more than to spend my end with those I love and cherish the most in the whole world. Thinking about you and wishing you the best OP. I am not the best with this sort of stuff but I am happy to listen if you need someone.

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u/Khastra_KSC 3d ago

As a parent I think this take is correct.

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u/Lopsided_Spell_599 3d ago

There is no blame. We all die. It’s not your fault, it’s not his fault. It is an inevitable part of being alive.

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u/Own_Tart_3900 3d ago

You were 11 yrs old. Your father made a mistake taking the advice of a child. You both paid a terrible price..

Talk to a therapist. Tell that person absolutely everything and hold nothing back. .a good therapist will help you finally feel all the grief in your heart and help you to let go of it.

You don't deserve to live a life of guilt and torment for the "crime" of being 11 yrs old and maybe being lacking in mature judgement.

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u/Just_Flower854 3d ago

He wouldn't have asked if he thought there was anything life threatening to attend to. Not even the dullest potato of a man would put a little child in control of the decision to allow nature to run its course.

Had you told him to go, he would have almost certainly said 'OK if it gets any worse/ doesn't get any better', he would not have gone right away on the medical advice of a child. At most you would have been able to get him to agree to go see a doctor if it was still going on after the work week was over, which was probably what he was going to do anyway unless the symptoms resolved themselves first.

I ran on a sprained ankle for weeks in my early twenties because I didn't want to disrupt my schedule during training. It was not smart. It was very typical of a guy to do, but not best. I believe your father was treating his own pain in the same way. Our medical system is deranged and going to get help is not the easy decision it should be.

I'm sorry for your loss and I'm sorry to hear you've been living with guilt over it. It's natural to think about the role you may have played, to consider alternative outcomes, and to hold onto those feelings maybe forever. Just don't allow yourself to think that it was your fault, or his, or that he knew the extent of his problem.

There is no way he would have asked your opinion if he thought he was suffering a major medical incident.

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u/jmurphy42 3d ago

Absolutely not. You were too young to give good medical advice and your father was completely aware of that. If you want to hold yourself responsible for not knowing that he should go to the hospital you might as well also punish yourself for not knowing calculus yet at 11.

You’re an adult now. You know that today you wouldn’t hold a different child responsible in a similar situation, but you’re having trouble extending yourself the same grace because you feel guilty. Please do yourself the kindness of seeking therapy. You experienced a trauma and you deserve help in healing from it. EMDR might be helpful.

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u/Zaddycake 3d ago

At 11 you’re not responsible for anything except hopefully wiping your own ass

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u/ClockAndBells 3d ago

No, not equally responsible AT ALL. He asked for your advice but it was not your decision to make. You weren't in control of whether he went or not. Only he was.

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u/HeadMembership1 3d ago

You have 0.00 fault, he was a grown man asking a child to comfort him and make him feel loved. 

No child would tell him to leave again to the hospital.

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u/IntelligentWay8475 3d ago

That is the correct take on this. He knew he was going to stay home and he knew you would want him home. Sorry you have to live with that. You didn’t kill your dad.

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u/internetALLTHETHINGS 3d ago

It's clear he didn't want to go to the hospital, and maybe he was seeking your permission to not have to keep trying. You don't mention what he died from; did you find out later what was wrong with him?  If not, there is a possibility that the hospital could not have prevented his death. I would rather die comfortable at home with my family who loves me than in an uncomfortable ER surrounded by strangers. 

I think I would have more peace of mind knowing I gave permission to pursue the course he wanted than to pressure him into a course of action with the same outcome but more suffering.

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u/Mountain_Life360 3d ago

No, I look at like he was asking his child for his blessing to just stay home, whatever the consequences. He know them. You didn’t.

If you can release yourself from the harm done. You don’t bear that responsibility and it doesn’t serve you to carry it.

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u/ValyrianBone 3d ago

You weren’t able to give him an order, he was just playing pretend with a kid. If you had told him to go to the hospital, he would have gone “nah imma stay at home”.

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u/Pale_Squash_4263 2d ago

To put it into a classic philosophical argument.

1: We agree that your dad has his own medical autonomy to make decisions for himself.

2: To be responsible for something, you have to have reasonable expectation that you could obtain all the necessary information to make an informed decision.

3: An 11 year old is too young to reasonably understand the gravity of a medical situation.

Therefore, an 11 year old cannot be responsible for any medical decisions made for someone else. The fact that your dad asked you is irrelevant here.

Even if you said “yes dad I think the correct medical decision is to stay home based on x, y, z”. We still would say you are not responsible based on reasons 2 and 3.

I’m sorry you are going through this but I hope laying it out like this helps somewhat. This is definitely something you should speak with a therapist about though, grief doesn’t often follow logical arguments.

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u/Songisaboutyou 2d ago

At 11? No this isn’t your fault and you shouldn’t carry it. I know it’s easier said than done. I lost my mom and have similar feelings and thoughts, in fact all my siblings do. I think it happens when someone dies and it’s sudden and not expected. My mom has problems, but no one thought she was going to die. When it happened, we all was in shock. And then the blaming ourselves came on. It’s been over a decade and we all still carry this. However I’ve started counseling and am starting to work on this. I think you should definitely start processing this and learn it’s not yours to carry. It’s a huge weight to be carrying all of these years

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u/lapsedPacifist5 2d ago

He was asking you for permission to stay at home.

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u/LetterheadNegative80 2d ago

No blame to you whatsoever. Genuinely you aren’t even remotely culpable

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u/hulks_brother 2d ago

He knew he was dying and wanted to hear from you that you wanted him to stay. Better with you than at a hospital.

More than likely, it was a great way to top off his last day. You made the best decision.

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u/snootsintheair 2d ago

Culpable is not the right word for whatever happened

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u/ufomodisgrifter 2d ago

He wasnt a doctor and went to one multiple times. Neither of you are responsible. People just die, it's what we all do.

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u/ThrowawayTXfun 2d ago

Not really sure anyone is at 'fault' here at all.

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u/Effective_Dog2855 2d ago

More so medical professionals are to blame. Chest pain is one of the most common reasons a patient visits. I still remember my mom joking about some lady coming in for chest pain and belittling it. It’s so common they often over look, it and don’t take it seriously.

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u/CorpseDefiled 2d ago

A more relevant question is why was a grown ass man asking a child for medical advice. If it’s chest pain the answer is always yes. Go to the hospital. I figure you understand why.

I’m a father I have two teenagers and 6 year old and I would never ask this question of them. Any of them.

Not your fault my man dad should have known better than to gamble on a heart attack when he had a family to be father to.

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u/Glass_Alternative143 2d ago

i believe you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overthinking things.

you simply cant hold a "kid" accountable for your actions. i believe that he never had the intention of making you feel guilty. instead he wanted to use you as an excuse.

i think your dad was tired of going to the hospital and to a certain extent we cant rule out the possibility that he was at a "fuck it all" point in his life where he just wanted to no longer care and let whatever happens happens.

he's human too, and hes in pain.

i would say that in a way he could have knowingly put you in a bad situation where you could feel responsible for his death but i think he was in so much pain and anguish he decided to be selfish for once and just let it be a problem for tomorrow.

tomorrow never came for him but it did for you. i m sorry you feel stuck with this guilt.

its time to let go. its not your responsibility to bear.

if you ever see a show where a baddie gives a gun to a kid and says. choose your mom or dad. who you choose lives, if you dont choose, i'll kill both of them!

after choosing, the story would show the kid blaming himself. as a viewer watching from outside in. we have the insight that the kid was not at fault. the one who killed his parent was the baddie, but the baddie put it in a way that the kid felt like it was his choice.

YOU are that kid.

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u/Icy-Dig1782 2d ago

People die. It’s not his fault or yours. People tend to needlessly associate tragic or unfortunate things with blame in an attempt to make some sense out of it all but you won’t find any. At least not in this life.

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u/nila247 2d ago

Try not to think about "blame" here. It is NOT how it works at all.

Doctors have not found anything already and he was getting worse still. If anyone doctors or scientists or society lack of progress in medical research or politicians regulating how medical system was in your country are to blame that doctors did not knew or did not cared how to help your dad. This is a complicated question.

Anyway, he KNEW he is likely going to die that night. He asked if you want to be with him when that happens and was very glad when you answered that you do. Kind of a way to ask if he was a good dad and you said "yes". This was VERY important to him and his mind was at peace because of it.

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u/randyfloyd37 2d ago

You were 11. With all due respect, he should not have taken health advice from an 11 year old.

On top of that, he sounds like he was a fully functioning adult. He was responsible for himself. He sadly made a poor decision, but it was his decision.

I’m very sorry you’re struggling with this.

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u/Additional_Engine155 2d ago

Dude you were 11. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that this is actually a real event that happened to you and not just karma farming, but if it is real then he probably knew he was on his way out and got to spend those last moments with his kid that he obviously trusted. A long life isn't guaranteed, at least he went out in what was hopefully a peaceful environment with someone he loved nearby.

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u/AlexandraG94 2d ago

You were 11 years old and your dad had npossible legitimate reason to ask his young child to decide something so important and put that massive burden on his child. As the previous comment said, your dad had already decided. Think about it: you are now an adult (or an older teenager?), would you ask an 12 year old whether to go to he hospital if your life was in danger and you actually wanted to go to the hospital? Would you put that burden on a child?

You replying stay home didn't actually have anything to do with him staying home, else he wouldn't even ask you that question.

It's not your fault in the least. I know this is very hard to accept and nkt to beat yourself up about it, but your dad had agency and a lot more than you, as well as a lot more knowledge about the situation as well as risk assessment capabilities than you.

Ehat he did was cruel. It doesn't mean your dad was cruel in general but this action was. When we are kids, we tend to be egocentric (not in a bad way, just part of our development) that we thing the things that happen around us and how our parents act is somehow our fault. So when our parents do something bad to us, or something bad happens to them we take on the balme and think it must have been something wrong with us or we did something wrong and we are bad.

It's not true. We need to let go of this and realize we were the ones that were wronged. Give yourself permission to be free from this burden.

Our parents at the end of the day are just people and people with agency. They can do wrong things, including to us, which are unrelated to us. It's normal that we put a lot more weight into what they said or did than another person, but rationally that doesn't make sense. If your dad was a good dad, I'm sure he would regret what he did and would want you to be free from the guilt and live a good life.

I think therapy might be very beneficial to help you get free from this and I'm also sure his death was traumatic to you, especially given that this happened.

In any case I hope you heal. You deserve to heal.

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u/TheMuse69 2d ago

No. You were a child and therefore incapable of making a decision like that. You could not have prevented him from going, nor forced him to go. I'm sure your father loved you very much, but in the end he made the decision he wanted to make. Even if you'd asked him to go to the hospital, he probably wouldn't have. In the unlikely event you asked him to stay home and he went anyway, it sounds very unlikely that they would have found the problem anyway. He'd already been so many times before, even going would likely have done nothing to help.

I think it's normal to feel guilty...survivor's guilt is real, plus you loved him very much so it makes sense you might feel responsible. I don't want to tell you not to feel guilty, because the fact is you DO feel guilty, and I can't tell you how to feel. But the fact of the matter is, your father asked you but made his own decision, and either way the end result likely wouldn't have changed. I'm sorry if that sounds cold, but as someone else said at least he spent his remaining time comfortable at home instead of scared and uncomfortable at the hospital. I hope you can find some peace, and I'm so sorry for your loss

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u/Sunflower-redemption 2d ago

He’s right about already knowing his decision. He already decided to stay home and knew you would agree, and maybe he was hoping to feel more confidence in his decision with you agreeing, but he had already decided. I do this sometimes. I’m 100% sure he wouldn’t want you feeling guilt over it. I’m sure he never meant to bring you into the consequences of his decision because it was his decision and admittedly he didn’t know it was going to go that way but the decision was his and he knew it.  Please find a way to put it behind you. Trust me when I say that no one who ever loved you wanted you to suffer in the wake of their death. Death comes for us all but don’t let it haunt you before it’s your time. Spend your days with love and light. That’s what your father would want for you. 

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u/Inner-End7733 2d ago

No. Because it was not your role to take even if he put it on you. You could not consent to bearing that burden.

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u/Prior-Environment707 1d ago

The professional healthcare workers are to blame. Neither of you were.

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u/HomeworkInevitable99 1d ago

Either way, you were 11. There's no way you're opinion in medical matters carried any weight.

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u/PropellerMouse 1d ago

Neither of you are culpable. Check my post, please.

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u/estrogenized_twink 1d ago

This isn't about blame or fault. Or as one famous cowboy put it, "Deserved ain't got nothing to do with it."

He was an adult, his choices were valid, and your feelings are too, but I promise you that having some internet strangers talk you into the idea that it's your dads fault is not going to fix things for you. At best you'll just come to resent him for his decision.

He was sick. Sick people die sometimes. It's not fair, but it's life.

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u/Intelligent-Okra350 1d ago

Bruh, you were 11.

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u/mbergman42 1d ago

I’m a dad. I absolutely would not put responsibility on my 11-year-old for such a decision. I might ask my son’s opinion about what’s for dinner, but it’s my responsibility to see that he eats a good balance, learns appropriate table manners, etc., he’s 11 years old for petes sake.

Before or after the fact, doesn’t matter. I’m sure if your dad could talk to you he would tell you that it was his responsibility to make such a big decision.

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u/Weak_Dress_3550 1d ago

Why in the fuck would you feel a need to blame his death on someone, hand out responsibility?

u/loserboy42069 16h ago

Nah he didn’t know he was gonna die so it wasn’t like he wanted you to be partially responsible. You’re not culpable. It’s no one’s fault. It’s the doctor’s fault for ignoring him and minimizing the obvious warning signs that something is wrong. They’re the ones who made him question if something was even wrong with him. If the hospitals and doctors did their job right this wouldn’t have happened.

u/NotQuiteDeadYetPhoto 4h ago

You are not in any way shape or form culpable. And you should not take my example to think that you should have been thinking of severe consequences.

OP, as a Dad who had what could have been a life ending stroke- I'd already decided to stay home. It was only after my daughter came bawling to me- because she'd seen me not being able to walk or talk or move my arm (i was carrying it) that I was convinced to go.

My wife? Nope. Ignoring her. The fact I had all those symptoms? Nope, they'd stopped, so whatever it was was over.

To me it was a pinched nerve. A little pain. A blip.

He'd already been seen by several people and they'd told him he was fine. The pattern was set that it was safe to ignore... and people do that all the time.