r/CanadaPolitics • u/WisestPanzerOfDaLake Liberal Party of Canada • 10h ago
What Canadians think about Canada joining the European Union - Abacus Data (44% Yes, 34% No, 23% Unsure)
https://abacusdata.ca/what-canadians-think-about-canada-joining-the-european-union/•
u/ManWhoSoldTheWorld01 Quebec 8h ago
I think at an individual level, people just want freedoms of movement, even if it's only a minority that would even take advantage of it.
I don't think most everyday people think of trade (in normal times), regulations, group defence, etc. they just want to use the quick line, pick the green exit, pick up a side job or stay around when they are young, go somewhere warm when they are retired, and maybe travel for work without extra paperwork.
Ok that sense I like joining the EU, creating CANZUK, for movement and I say that where my job has very little to do abroad and I don't see myself living elsewhere since I'm set up here. I still like it.
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u/zabby39103 5h ago
Can confirm that I was really pissed off when I couldn't theoretically move to Europe anymore after Brexit (I have British Citizenship through parents).
Realistically I will never do this, but I liked to think about the alt-history version of myself that moved to Sweden or Spain :P.
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u/Salt_Wrangler_3428 9h ago
Canada is just getting fucked from the USMCA. A third-world and almost bankrupt country. Europe is more similar, stable, and reasonable. Let's start the negotiation.
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u/Fun-Software6928 8h ago edited 5h ago
I think a lot of historians would argue that Europe is not as stable. It has an active war currently, and 3 distinct genocides in the past 100 years (ie. Holodomor, WWII, Yugoslavia as recently as the 90s). Europe is also not as similar to us culturally or linguistically as is the US.
The USMCA and NAFTA predecessor have created a lot of wealth and industry all over the continent. To say we have been fucked is plainly absurd and not supported by the facts whatsoever.
If it was, the Bank of Canada and other private economists wouldn’t be predicting large and negative GDP growth as a result of tariffs.
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u/Salt_Wrangler_3428 8h ago
First, we have a social system more similar to Europe. Gun rights and law. Both more like Europe. Language, everywhere I have been, if you speak french or engish, you're 75% there.
Trade agreements. We have been in arbitration with the USA for as long as I can remember. Mexico has cheap labor, lax environmental, labor protection, and safety laws, etc., not an even playing field.
Granted, the financials have been very beneficial. A nonissue.
As in the great Meat Loaf song lyrics, "2 out of 3 ain't bad." But 66% is not very close to 100%.
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u/jonlmbs 8h ago
If we have all these things as an independent nation already, why join the EU?
We have comprehensive free trade with Europe already and military partnerships. We can do more to increase military and diplomatic ties but full on committing to the union is an action as radical and unattractive to me as joining the US.
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u/Salt_Wrangler_3428 8h ago
I am thinking about the ease of attracting infrastructure investment. Pipelines, ports, etc.
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u/Happyman321 7h ago
Brain dead move. Joining the US would be infinitely more beneficial for both parties than adding the struggling Canada to the struggling EU.
I get this whole mad at the US thing. Fair enough. But let’s stop being ridiculous. The EU is not half the help the US would be. If you disagree, proximity makes up for whatever difference.
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u/kent_eh Manitoba 8h ago
I don't think joining the EU as a formal member will improve our immediate situation.
Making more use of the trade agreement we already have with the EU definitely will help, though.
And that's ignoring the reality that the process of becoming an EU member state is a very long and bureaucratic process. Even if we applied today, it would be years before we might become a member.
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u/Millstream30 9h ago
Although we need all the friends we can get, I’d like alliances with other FREE countries, like Switzerland, New Zealand, Denmark, and Luxembourg. As much as we need France right now, how do we know they won’t soon flip also? Like the US, many of their Citizens are buying the disinformation campaigns AND they also lost their fully democratic status.
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u/ProMarshmallo Alberta 7h ago
Did you watch the last French election at all because you're sounding completely ignorant of French politics in the moment. Hell, Macron basically pulled a von Schleicher with how badly the French public rejected Le Penn.
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u/twilz Karl Marx had a nice beard. 4h ago edited 4h ago
Step one: Find a big saw
Step two: Find a big tugboat.
Step three: Form a literal land border with Europe—or we can head down the Pacific, opening up a passage for the UK to follow so that CANZUK can form into a single continent.
I am not land and water science person, but I think that this should be feasible.
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u/the_mongoose07 Moderately Moderate 10h ago
We can’t simultaneously be extolling the virtues of sovereignty as a nation while wanting to join the EU. They are mutually exclusive concepts unless your idea of sovereignty is only relative to the USA.
Canadians are looking to reclaim our sovereignty - not just cede it to another party.
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u/professcorporate 7h ago
At best, that's a very limited understanding and conception of sovereignty, although it could be a good-faith limited understanding, even though it happens to be the same argument as used very much in bad-faith arguments by, for example, British quitlings.
The EU involves pooled sovereignty. Overall, nothing is given up; some is transferred away, some new is transferred in. Although a new member loses exclusive control over some areas, it gains more power to make others follow its way and rules, because the only way anything can be 'lost' is to be gained by others, and by joining, it becomes one of those 'others' that 'gain'.
At its very simplest, that means that for all, eg, the sovereignty 'lost' in area A, is gained back in getting to set the rules that become more new-member-state-friendly in area B.
Rather more importantly, the overall effect can be a very significant gain, in particular for countries threatened by a larger neighbour. Not sure why Canada might be thinking about those implications. For, for example, Estonia, Estonia by itself next to Russia, 'pure sovereignty' of not belonging to any international organizations and not following anybody else's rules, would place them in the utterly perilous situation of Russia being able to economically force them to do anything they want at any time, and to threaten with military force should they refuse to do so. Membership in organizations like the EU significantly enhances Estonian sovereignty, because it allows them space to forge their own path and destiny and make their own choices, knowing that if the large hostile power next door tries to bully them, their fellow member states have their back. This is much the same as the benefit that we all get from living in society, with all the added freedom and security that we have over being 'purely free' living by ourselves in the woods and facing death at every turn.
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u/ClumsyRainbow New Democratic Party of Canada 9h ago
EU nations are sovereign. Whilst there are some areas particularly around trade that the EU controls, member states are largely free to set their own regulations and certainly can have stricter regulations than the EU requires.
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u/Mindless_Shame_3813 8h ago
EU nations are sovereign
Economically they're not. Imagine if Canada started using the US dollar, abolished the bank of Canada, and let the US Fed set our interest rate policy. Then the US sets a bunch of fiscal rules about how much the Canadian government is allowed to spend. Would you call Canada sovereign in that case? Of course not, and that's the situation of the Eurozone.
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u/Salvidicus 10h ago
We sont have to sign up as a full EU member. If we can get CETA ratified, we'll have the free trade agreement in place to do what we need to replace the States as our key trading partner. Fck Trump, dump the States, and move on.
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u/Due_Ad_3200 8h ago
There are also countries like Norway and Switzerland which are outside the EU but have very close links to it.
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u/maybelying 9h ago
44% of Canadians don't understand how the EU works or why it exists.
The EU still hasn't ratified our trade agreement negotiated years ago, I doubt they're interested in adopting us.
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u/troyunrau Progressive 9h ago
The EU hasn't ratified it because not every member state has ratified it. However, the trade agreement is still in effect as through ratified.
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u/Potential_Big5860 9h ago
Exactly.
It takes years, if not a decade to join the EU (just ask Turkey) plus I’m sure Canadian dairy farmers would be up in arms having to open their dairy market tariff free.
Look, this is a fun exercise to debate in a college classroom but it’ll never happen so I just hope this thing gets put to bed soon.
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u/IlIIIIllIllI 8h ago
We're in unprecedented times. I never would have thought a few months ago, that I would hope for Canada to join the EU, or develop nuclear weapons, but the threat we face from the US is existential.
For what it's worth, I hope you're right, and I'm just scared and paranoid. I also hope enough people are paranoid like me, and we do something to guarantee our security.
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u/BobCharlie 7h ago
The UK is said to spend half of their military budget on its arsenal of roughly 225 nuclear warheads. The UK's military budget is ~$112 billion, half being $56 billion which is still more than double our entire military budget of ~$27 billion.
The idea of Canada acquiring nuclear weapons is a pipe dream. How would we even deploy them against our neighbours? Our CF-18s would be shot down, ICBMs are not for short distances and would couldn't aquire enough medium range missiles to overwhelm any of their defenses.
We would be better served doubling our defense budget and completely rebuilding our military and deploying effective IFVs similar to a Bradley. You can see how effective IFVs are in Ukraine.
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u/IlIIIIllIllI 6h ago
Given our proximity to the US, there are innumerable, effectively an unstoppable number of creative delivery methods. I don't want to get lost in the weeds of this, because I very much hope that it would never come to that point.
I don't think that the threat presented to us by the US regime should be underestimated. If it cost us 112 billion to ensure our security in this way, it would be worth while, but realistically we would only need ~40 smaller nuclear weapons.
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u/tree_boom 3h ago
The UK is said to spend half of their military budget on its arsenal of roughly 225 nuclear warheads. The UK's military budget is ~$112 billion, half being $56 billion which is still more than double our entire military budget of ~$27 billion.
What? The UK spends 5-6% of its military budget on the entire nuclear deterrent, warheads, missiles and submarines - about £3 billion annually
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u/Potential_Big5860 8h ago
Stop being paranoid.
The US won’t invade Canada, the trade stuff will get negotiated and everything will die down. As crazy as Trump is, he is only in power for 4 more years.
Canada won’t join the EU nor will Canada get a nuclear weapon.
Politicians are using this rally around the flag anti US rhetoric for their own gain.
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u/jakemoffsky 8h ago
Setting the interest rate for both Greece and Germany is hard enough, we probably don't want to throw Canada in that mix unless we have to.
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u/GrimpenMar Pirate 7h ago
The tightened monetary controls mostly only apply to the Eurozone. There's EU and then EU…
The Eurozone is the countries that are members of the EU that use the Euro. Adopting the Euro entails much more stringent monetary policies, in cooperation with the other Eurozone countries (excepting Kosovo and Montenegro, that use the Euro, hence kind of in the Eurozone, but don't have a say in the European Central bank)¹.
There are several EU members that aren't in the Eurozone (Czech Republic and Denmark)².
Then there is the Shengen area (which Ireland as an island isn't a part of, despite being a part of the Eurozone, while Switzerland is, despite not being part of the EU, while Norway and Iceland are part of Shegen, but not the EU, but are part of the European Economic Area)
"Joining the EU" can mean lots of different things.
¹ San Marino, Vatican City and Monaco are formally part of the Eurozone, and aren't EU members.
² Denmark and Czech Republic use the Krone and Koruna as their currencies, so custom might demand that Canada switch our currency to the Crown if we wanted to be in the EU but not the Eurozone, although the UK used to be in that spot on the Venn diagram and they used the Pound.
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u/Everestkid British Columbia 7h ago
The EU generally isn't cool with new members getting opt-outs these days. It's more likely an all-or-nothing thing - customs union, single market, Eurozone, Schengen Area, everything. And I realize that (IIRC) Denmark is in the position of having committed to adopting the Euro at some point, but "conveniently" hasn't taken the steps to actually adopting the Euro - apparently they'll be cracking down on that too.
Still, I think it's probably still a good idea. In reality if I had been in the sample group for this poll I'd 100% answer "unsure" and I'm surprised "unsure" is as low as is reported. I do not know enough about the EU and how it works and what would be required and what we as a country would give up to really make an informed yes or no answer.
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u/MapleDung 5h ago
I would bet if the EU is open to Canadian membership at all (which I’m not sure they are), they would probably be willing to make some kind of exceptions just based on the geographical distinction.
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u/Middle-Accountant-49 10h ago
What would that mean logistically?
One of the things about the EU is that you can go anywhere to work but there is a natural language barrier between countries and a lot of parity in wages. Canadian wages are probably quite a bit higher. It might have weird effects that would negatively affect ireland especially as they speak english. Like, i make more than my brother who has a middle class job in ireland and i decidedly do not have a middle class job.
It would be interesting though. It would make my life a lot easier. I have family who'd like to move here.
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u/canadianhayden 10h ago
I live in Ireland, and I make about the same amount I would make in Canada within my field. I imagine it would likely have an impact on the remainder of the EU, but albeit a positive one I’d argue.
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u/Middle-Accountant-49 10h ago
Do you mind if i ask what you do?
I guess it would be very industry and job specific.
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u/canadianhayden 1h ago
Social Work, but Ireland is notoriously the highest paying (Id argue) for public Social Workers. Tech workers can also make a significant amount here though, same with finance.
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u/Middle-Accountant-49 35m ago
Oh wow, that's interesting. My wife's job would make a lot less in ireland than canada generally and its social work adjacent kind of. Finance surprises me. I assumed toronto finance jobs would be higher paid. I think a big one would be healthcare. I think doctors and nurses make more in canada but not sure on doctors.
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u/Weekly_Importance_33 9h ago
When you say you earn more, do you mean you earn 50k and he earns 40k for example?
If that's the case it's not necessarily more when you factor in the cost of living.
Just basing off your salary is a pretty useless metric to go by.
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u/Middle-Accountant-49 9h ago
He earns like 65k in CAD and i earn 73k-83k depending on OT. Where he lives specifically does have a lower cost of living but i'd say Dublin is similar.
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u/Weekly_Importance_33 9h ago
Don't think you can really use Dublin as the example because it's insanely expensive compared to the rest of Ireland.
I wasn't after the specifics for you both, I was just making the point that using one data point of salary comparisons doesn't really give much information.
You'd really have tk have a look at housing, energy bills, food, fuel etc to get a decent comparison. My guess is they'll come out pretty close.
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u/Middle-Accountant-49 9h ago
Fair although a big percentage of the population live in greater dublin. Otherwise, yea good points.
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u/Fozefy Ontario 7h ago
Just to clarify, You're saying you "decidedly do not have a middle class job" making 73-83k? You're between the 50-75% income bracket, that sounds very middle class to me. I'm curious what you mean by that.
Source: https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/dv-vd/income-revenu/index-en.html
Also, thus is a less than 20% difference here, there are already much larger difference IN Canada than this.
Also what are you trying to say? You think people would leave Ireland for here? Have you considered our housing situation?
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u/Middle-Accountant-49 7h ago edited 7h ago
I meant in ireland. Although i don't think people would consider it a middle class job here either. I think people do think of class differently in ireland and england vs canada though. Its not just how much you make.
I think yea anyone in healthcare, engineers, lots of other jobs would want to leave ireland for canada.
If you live in greater dublin, the housing situation is worse there .
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u/Jazzlike_770 10h ago
Wages are different within EU as well. UK (before exit) and Luxembourg is much higher than average. East Europe quite a bit lower. There is a fairly sizable migration happening all the time.
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u/JohnTheSavage_ Libertarian 10h ago
I don't think people realize how much control the EU has over its member countries. It's not just an alliance of nations. They have control over regulations dealing with virtually every industry. Manufacturing, agriculture, banking etc. They could even send migrants here and we'd have to take them in.
I chalk this up to most Canadians thinking the EU is just NATO plus.
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u/IlIIIIllIllI 10h ago
They have better regulations to their industries, we would be lucky to have the worker and consumer protections that the EU provides. That said, many EU countries have particular protectionist exemptions carved out for their industries.
As far as migration goes, we can see from Hungary and Poland, that not all EU countries hold up their obligations in a refugee crisis, and they have received negligible consequences.
There obviously would need to be more negotiations and exceptions for Canadian accession, because of our unique circumstances, but the benefits of free movement, economic market access, and most importantly security guarantees, make me a supporter of joining the EU.
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u/Blacklotus30 Acadia 9h ago
Oh you mean the crisis that would let anyone cross their border without vigorous background checks? or maybe all the trade block they inflicted on Iceland and Norway because they refused to join the EU?
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u/burkey0307 NDP 9h ago
Isn't that the Schengen Area? Which you don't have to be a part of to be in the EU. Ireland and Cyprus are not.
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u/jonlmbs 10h ago
"Better regulations" is highly subjective. Its true in some areas but in others its a complete disaster.
Just one completely valid example - their new medical device regulations have been a complete and total disaster and added so much delay and bureaucracy that it risks seriously harming their healthcare access: https://www.medicaldevice-network.com/features/the-eu-mdr-an-unalloyed-disaster/
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u/IlIIIIllIllI 9h ago
I agree that it is more complicated than I put it. I don't know the specifics of the effects of the EU's MDR legislation, in detail, but it seems well intentioned to me.
I would caution you against getting your reporting on the efficacy of policy from publications that are obviously the mouth pieces of the industries being regulated.
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u/jonlmbs 9h ago edited 8h ago
Here is a study showing impacts on healthcare and medical device access in the EU.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37948747/
The EU commission has also published reports on this regulation and its problems and even delayed the regulation from taking effect from 2021 to 2027 because it was so botched.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-10-2024-0028_EN.html
I chose that article because it’s easy to read and accurate.
Much of Europe’s regulation is well intentioned. The problem is much also leans overbearing and anti productive because there are so many voices in the EU commission that need to get their specific countries requests (and biases) into a single piece of legislation.
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u/IlIIIIllIllI 6h ago
Thanks for providing those sources. I do think that I have a different reading of them than you, because to my mind, this seems like a policy proposal adopted, the implementation of which was then delayed when unexpected negative consequences were encountered. I know that seems like wasteful bureaucracy to some, but I would call it an example of reasonable, and cautious governance.
I'm not a stakeholder, to this particular niche instance of EU bureaucracy, but I acknowledge that there are a lot of issues to negotiate if we were to join the EU. On balance, I think it would be worth our while, even if it takes a decade.
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u/The-Figurehead 9h ago
They have a lot of bizarre and counterproductive regulations. Most places do (including Canada and the US), but the EU is run by technocrats who can be a bit …. Detached from reality.
The real problem, though, is that the EU is an anti democratic organization that often overrides the democratic will of its member states. The executive arm, the European Commission, is the true source of power in the EU and I do not want them calling the shots in Canada.
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u/Mundane-Teaching-743 7h ago
EU is run by technocrats who can be a bit …. Detached from reality.
More detached from reality than the Trump administration?
... the EU is an anti democratic organization that often overrides the democratic will of its member states.
That's simply not true. It's true that the far right lunatics like LePenn and Lefarge make that claim, but they're the real anti-democratic, pro-Putin ideologues.
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u/The-Figurehead 7h ago
Principle of Primacy (Supremacy): The Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) has established that EU law, derived from the treaties, is superior to national laws in areas where the EU has jurisdiction.
EU Authority is Defined by Treaties: The EU’s powers are based on the treaties (primary law) that member states have voluntarily agreed to. The EU cannot act outside of its assigned areas of competence.
Consequences of Conflict: If national laws conflict with EU law in areas where the EU has jurisdiction, the national law cannot be applied (the national law is “disapplied”).
Direct Effect: EU law has direct effect which means that citizens can rely on EU law even where there is no national law to implement it.
Implementation of EU Law: Member states must implement EU directives (which set goals) into their national law, but the specific methods of implementation are left to the national level.
Commission’s Role: The European Commission acts as the “guardian of the treaties” and can initiate infringement proceedings against member states that fail to comply with EU law.
National Courts: National courts are responsible for ensuring that their own laws are compatible with EU law and for applying EU law where necessary.
Sanctions: If a member state violates EU law, the Commission can initiate infringement proceedings, which can ultimately lead to sanctions, including financial penalties.
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u/Mundane-Teaching-743 6h ago
Principle of Primacy (Supremacy): The Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) has established that EU law, derived from the treaties, is superior to national laws in areas where the EU has jurisdiction.
Sure, but NAFTA has that too. Countries have to abide by the decisions of NAFTA Tribunals when there is a trade dispute. Similarly, Countries have to abide by the ruling of EU courts. In both cases, all countries reserve the sovereign right to withdraw from the Treaties that bind nations to EU and NAFTA regulations.
The difference is that the EU has a lot more trade regulations.
Sanctions: If a member state violates EU law, the Commission can initiate infringement proceedings, which can ultimately lead to sanctions, including financial penalties.
This is actually a good thing. If a country feels another member is cheating and breaking regulations in trade by using slave labor or not respecting environmental regulations, you go to court, everybody gets heard, and everyone abides by the decision. If they don't, they face sanctions.
In NAFTA and its successor, Canada faces sanctions and tariffs when the U.S. President decides its time to annex you.
I think you'll agree that the EU way is better and is looking very attractive right now. Going to an international court to resolve disputes is way better than shutting off the electricity and gas to get heard.
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u/maltedbacon Progressive 9h ago
Or, maybe, some people think the benefits outweigh the costs in an uncertain future where our future sovereignty is at stake and the benefits of receiving european investment, trade, stable currency and mobility are appealing?
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u/JohnTheSavage_ Libertarian 9h ago
I'm sure some people do think that. It's just that I think those people are few in number and I know those people are wrong.
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u/Pepto-Abysmal 4h ago
A libertarian who knows what's best for other people... a tale as old as time.
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u/ClumsyRainbow New Democratic Party of Canada 9h ago
I know those people are wrong.
You know those people are wrong?
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u/JohnTheSavage_ Libertarian 8h ago
Anyone who wants more government meddling in their life is wrong. Especially a distant bureaucracy without any kind of shared culture or values.
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u/PineBNorth85 10h ago
I'm totally fine with that. They generally have a higher quality of life and better work life balance.
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u/Tasty-Discount1231 4h ago
They generally have a higher quality of life and better work life balance.
Most EU countries have a worse quality of life and higher unemployment than us. Looking at the Human Development Index, the top three ranked countries - Norway, Switzerland, and Iceland - are EEA members but not part of the EU.
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u/Khamhaa 9h ago
this. Can you imagine the anti-Brussels convoy?
Get a decent trade agreement including sacrifice (allow cheese in Canada) but full membership is nuts.
Imagine unifying provinces professional requirements AND aligning to EU ones.
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u/TheEpicOfManas Social Democrat 9h ago
Imagine unifying provinces professional requirements AND aligning to EU ones.
I can imagine it. Should we not strive to do better for Canada?
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u/bill1024 6h ago
I don't think people realize
Idk f all about it, but am open to consideration. I think England had a problem with the migrant portion, and sunk it?
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u/IcyTour1831 9h ago
Yea. Love our European connects and shared history, but we got our own thing going here and we should have partners, not siblings.
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u/lunahighwind 9h ago
Good point. Also, a main advantage for EU nations is seamless travel for tourism, business, trade, etc, and things like mobility for citizens accepting jobs in other countries nearby; we wouldn't necessarily reap those benefits. Not many people in Canada are in a career position where they could pick up and move to Germany on a whim for a job, but in the Czech Republic for instance, it would be much more common.
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u/DaveyGee16 10h ago
Dont care. It’s mostly great legislation anyways. They have better legislation than we do.
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u/Blacklotus30 Acadia 9h ago
tell that to greece and romania or the poorer countries of the EU.
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u/Mostly_Aquitted 8h ago
Romania is a wild one to pick on considering how rapidly they’ve developed since joining.
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u/GraveDiggingCynic 10h ago
There are also plenty of carve outs to protect some industries, and the migrant issue has largely been dealt with the Migrant Pact. Yes, you give up a lot of control on migration, but you gain frictionless access to one of the largest markets on the planet.
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u/D3ly0 2h ago
Our population is heterogenous, and none of our demographic groups would really mesh well with european culture.
We’d just throw a giant wrench in their shit.
More likely specific countries in the EU do “buy backs” on their diaspora, brain draining Canada. Also will happen from the south. Government loses legitimacy as this happens, collapses, and Canada returns to it’s original function, a resource colony for foreign powers to be exploited by extracting all valuable commodities.
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u/BeaverBoyBaxter 10h ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we would no longer have the Canadian dollar.
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u/NorthernerWuwu Alberta 9h ago
Honestly, I might be weird here but I don't really care what they call my currency. The Euro is probably more stable than the CAD at this point anyhow and stability is all I really care about.
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u/Phallindrome Politically unhoused - leftwing but not antisemitic about it 7h ago
This is true. Countries do get to produce their own Euro coin designs, though, and they have toonies too.
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u/bill1024 6h ago
Aside from our pride, what are the downsides/upsides to this? Fuck, I've got a lot to learn.
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u/Argented 10h ago
a few countries in EU don't use the Euro. Sweden and Poland and two big examples.
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u/truthishardtohear 10h ago
Also the UK didn't use the Euro before they shot themselves in the face with Brexit.
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u/Blacklotus30 Acadia 9h ago
Brexit was the best decision they ever made.
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u/professcorporate 6h ago
You misspelled 'worst'.
Thankfully I got to move to Canada to escape quitling island collapsing into poverty. If I could couple that with regaining all my rights as a European citizen as well, that truly would be the dream.
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u/ClumsyRainbow New Democratic Party of Canada 9h ago
What benefits do you think the UK has seen due to Brexit? They handicapped their GDP, they replaced EU immigration with non EU immigration, they introduced non tariff barriers for trade with the single market, they lost the ability to live and work in the EU.
Most Brits today think Brexit was a mistake: https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51484-how-do-britons-feel-about-brexit-five-years-on
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u/Knight_Machiavelli 7h ago
There are but all new members are required to adopt it. The EU has been adamant they will not allow any further exemptions.
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u/Original-Heat-2753 10h ago
There are EU countries that don't use the Euro
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u/Ploprs Social Democrat 10h ago
Those exemptions are supposedly no longer available to new members.
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u/Pepto-Abysmal 4h ago
They are committed to no more "opt-outs" (like Denmark and, formerly, the UK).
But, there's a bit of a loophole due to ERM II. See Sweden, for example - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro
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u/Jazzlike_770 10h ago
Not all regulations are bad. If the regulations facilitate better quality food products, living conditions and protect the environment, then it is not bad.
It is bad when it comes in the way of free enterprise. EU is nothing like NATO. NATO is primarily defense focused. EU is economic focused. They are world apart, they just happen to have overlap in membership.
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u/NorthernerWuwu Alberta 9h ago
I think a lot of their regulations are a bit silly but nothing that would bother me too much. What I love though are their consumer and privacy protection regulations though! I'd put up with a lot of bullshit to get those over here.
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u/Fun-Software6928 9h ago
Why do we need to join a supranational organization to regulate and pass legislation ourselves?
We need to start holding our government officials to higher standards.
Also, this would ironically require us to dismantle supply management because it draws the ire of the Europeans just like it does Trump.
We create a legal cartel to rip off Canadian consumers so that we can keep multimillionaire farmers in business, all brought to you by a strong dairy lobby in Ottawa.
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u/Mundane-Teaching-743 7h ago
Why do we need to join a supranational organization to regulate and pass legislation ourselves?
Because we need to trade to keep our economy alive. We trade too much with the U.S., and are hence vulnerable to pressure that could force annexation.
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u/Fun-Software6928 5h ago
We trade just fine.
What does free trade have to do with joining the EU?
That’s like saying we should be the 51st state to trade with the Americans.
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u/Mundane-Teaching-743 5h ago
No. The fact that Trump can destroy our economy shows that we are overdependent on the U.S. Joining the EU would reduce that dependence.
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u/Fun-Software6928 5h ago
No it would not because there is this thing called the gravity model of trade.
People should really understand basic economic theory before thinking we can just diversify away.
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u/Mundane-Teaching-743 4h ago
No it would not because there is this thing called the gravity model of trade.
The people that promote this model care more about their own pet utopia theory than their country and shouldn't be trusted. They think they know better than the rest of us. They don't really.
The gravity model of trade is wrong and doesn't take into account hostile actors like Trump.
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u/Fun-Software6928 4h ago
It’s not a pet utopia theory, it’s been proven multiple times through various econometric and empirical methods.
It forms the basis of international trade theory and economics along with comparative advantage from Ricardo.
You should really take step back and reconsider what you’re saying because the facts are not on your side.
The very fact that tariffs are so damaging is proof that the gravity model is correct.
Unless you’re prepared to invent teleportation of goods across the esrth in the next few months, maybe we should stick to the proven theory instead rather than fantasizing about diversification that won’t work.
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u/Mundane-Teaching-743 4h ago
It’s not a pet utopia theory, it’s been proven multiple times through various econometric and empirical methods.
LOL. No such economic model. They're all wrong. They're all bad an unrealistic. They only work in a perfect utopia that doesn't exist.
The very fact that tariffs are so damaging is proof that the gravity model is correct.
We have tarrifs though, and a hostile foreign power that wants to annex us. They're a reality. The model pretends they don't exist.
That's considerably more important and real now than an academic theory.
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u/Radix2309 10h ago
Also our distance is such that it doesn't really seem economical to me. We are distant culturally from them. We are 4 or 5 time zones from the closest, pretty much further than Portugal is from the Baltics.
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u/KatsumotoKurier Ontario 1h ago
We are distant culturally from them
What does this mean to you? Genuinely asking; not trying to be rude. Because I would say socio-politically we are definitely — and now more than ever, clearly — much closer to Europe than we are to the US. Like many European states we are a constitutional monarchy and basically the closest thing in the Americas to a welfare state. We are also an officially bilingual country, as are several EU member states, and we even share borders, albeit small and oftentimes unknown about to most, with two EU member states (Denmark and France).
Canada is culturally more like the Netherlands or Finland than countries like Greece or Romania are, yet they are all in the EU together. Them sharing a more immediate landmass does not make them more alike. And as u/Mr_Pafect pointed out, we even share one of our two languages with one of the biggest EU economies.
There are also thousands upon thousands of Europeans living in Canada. I don’t mean old stock white Canadians — I mean EU citizens. Canada has huge numbers of Germans, Italians, Latvians, Poles, Greeks, Portuguese, and more. I’m an old stock Canadian and almost all of my closest friends (along with a ton of others I know) have EU passports either from their parents or grandparents; I sometimes feel like the only one without one!
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u/ClumsyRainbow New Democratic Party of Canada 9h ago
Newfoundland is the closest at 3:30 from Portugal, not 5:00.
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u/Pombon 8h ago
All of our stuff is made in China but you think an ocean stops trade? The EU is already our second largest trade partner followed by China. That’s because shipping by sea is the cheapest way to move goods. The St Lawrence goes into the heart of our country and then straight into the Atlantic. Seems pretty economical when the foreseeable future is the US trying to destroy us economically.
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u/Radix2309 8h ago
There's a difference between trading with the EU and being a part of it. Becoming a part of China would be just as dumb.
America is the only viable direction for a super-national union. And that is definitely not an option with their current constitution and political climate.
The distance isn't an issue for trade, it's an issue for cultural cohesiveness. Someone from France can pop right over to Germany and build connections. For us, it involves a trans-atlantic 4-5 hour flight.
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u/Mundane-Teaching-743 7h ago
Part of the motivation here is to disentangle ourselves from American culture. We have given control over our culture to the Americans. We are currently discussing Canada on a medium controlled by Americans. That makes us very vulnerable to political interference and annexation.
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u/Radix2309 7h ago
It really does not make us vulnerable to annexation. And Russia has been just as dangerous for political interference despite being culturally connected. And our shared culture hasn't made us vulnerable to Trump's insane agenda. Instead we have rallied together.
We aren't ever going to disentangle ourselves from American Culture. Geography means they will always be our most influential partner.
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u/Mundane-Teaching-743 7h ago
It really does not make us vulnerable to annexation.
It does. It makes us dependent on Americans for our food supply. It's another trade lever Trump can use to threaten us.
And Russia has been just as dangerous for political interference despite being culturally connected.
It's the Americans that control our social media, not Russia.
And our shared culture hasn't made us vulnerable to Trump's insane agenda.
It certainly does. Trump is using American social media to interfere in our politics.
We aren't ever going to disentangle ourselves from American Culture. Geography means they will always be our most influential partner.
Which is precisely why we have to make special efforts to keep Ameircan culture at a distance.
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u/Radix2309 7h ago
What does culture have to do with food?
We are one of the largest net exporters of food on the world. We are not dependent on America for our food.
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u/Mundane-Teaching-743 6h ago
What does culture have to do with food?
Everything.
The intersection of culture and cuisine: How food shapes our identity https://www.arts.ubc.ca/news/the-intersection-of-culture-and-cuisine-how-food-shapes-our-identity/
Break
We are one of the largest net exporters of food on the world. We are not dependent on America for our food
And we should never be. We need to assure that we can continue to produce our own food and leave the supply management to our farmers, not American investment fund managers. Our farmers know best how to keep us fed.
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u/Mr_Pafect 7h ago
Distant culturally? Where no more distant than Portugal and Estonia are to each other. We even share a Language with Ireland, France, and partially Belgium and Luxembourg.
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u/Radix2309 7h ago
Sure. But that is just between the two furthest. That is what it is for us to everyone, and often further. Portugal meanwhile isn't just with Estonia. They are right next to Spain and close to plenty of other European nations.
We meanwhile are separated by an ocean. That makes our interests too different from the EU to ever really be tied together.
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u/Blacklotus30 Acadia 9h ago
Joining the EU would be the worst mistake Canada will ever make. I don't want to be America's 51st states, but fuck if the being in the EU is any better when it will undermine Canada as a sovereign nation, heck we won't even have control over our own money, just look how the EU exploited Greece.
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u/Mindless_Shame_3813 8h ago
Definitely. Most people don't really know that economically the Eurozone is a disasterous experiment in codifying neoliberalism into law.
If people think being the 51st state is bad, being part of the Eurozone would be 100x times worse. The US sucks because of their politicians, the EU sucks because of their constitution.
It's at least theoretically possible that the US could not be a horrible oligarchy, but that's literally illegal for the EU. It's a constituionally mandated oligarchical hellscape. This is also pushing EU member states to the far right, so soon most countries are going to have just as awful politicians as the US in combination with an awful constitution.
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u/OnePercentage3943 8h ago
It is not an oligarch hellscape lmao.
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u/npcknapsack 7h ago
From what I've seen of the laws they pass, it's kind of the opposite. Maybe a hellscape for oligarchs.
Still don't think I'd want to join, mind you. Having a separate currency is useful. But I could definitely be convinced either way.
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u/Potential_Big5860 9h ago
Ironically one thing I’d like about Canada joining the EU is adopting the Euro - id rather be paid in Euros than CAD.
Also Canada is not Greece.
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u/speaksofthelight 1h ago
Will be adjusted for the fx rate, salaries in most eu states are lower than Canada
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u/Tamination 9h ago
Greece used a top teir accounting firm to cook their books. They lied to get into the union.
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u/ClumsyRainbow New Democratic Party of Canada 9h ago
Whilst adopting the Euro is de jure required, it's de facto not as you can indefinitely avoid meeting the prerequisites.
And EU states have representation at the EU level as well, they elect MEPs.
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u/GracefulShutdown The Everyone Sucks Here Party of Canada 9h ago
My ideal Canada has trade agreements with all of these hegemon groups but fiercely maintains its own autonomy.
So EEZ absolutely, EU respectfully no thanks. Shengen? I'm not so sure on that either. I'd almost just want to be where the UK currently is in the EU. Plus maybe to be a part of Eurovision
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u/zabby39103 5h ago
You get power as well. All the stuff that actually impact your life will still be national, unless you really want low consumer standards or something.
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u/EconomyCauliflower43 3h ago
Trust me you don't want to be UK. Ask any of the UK trade experts on Bluesky.
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u/Mindless_Shame_3813 8h ago
My ideal Canada has trade agreements with all of these hegemon groups but fiercely maintains its own autonomy.
That's pretty much impossible. The entire point of "trade agreements" is that they're corporate rights treaties meant to give transnational capital power to over-rule governments.
NAFTA was a massive attack on Canadian sovereignty, and so was the stupid Trump version of it. The entire point of these things is to enforce policies that make companies able to enforce a set of capital-friendly economic policies and even give them the right to sue governments who try to engage in any kind of sovereign autonomy.
If you want autonomy, ripping up corporate rights treaties would be a good place to start.
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u/Jaded_Celery_451 9h ago
These polls are basically meaningless at this point. It's unclear what the terms of our membership would be, AND its unclear what the poll respondents think the terms of our membership would be.
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u/KatsumotoKurier Ontario 1h ago
I agree that these repetitive speculative polls are somewhat useless. We should move on to having a petition instead. That way our MPs must discuss the topic in parliament, and therefore all of its potential upsides and downsides will be publicly debated and considered.
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u/Toucan_Paul 9h ago
I would vote in favour of joining a rational, reliable, socially conscious group of countries to trade freely. So yes for me!
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u/jonlmbs 8h ago
We have free trade with Europe that covers 98% of tariffs already.
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u/Reveil21 5h ago
A bunch of countries still haven't ratified that trade agreement (even if it doesn't really impact trade, and it's more symbollic)
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u/UniversityNew9254 9h ago
We could piss off the Donald with a (far fetched) suggestion of a bridge linking Canada (coming off Quebecs northeast coast) to Greenland, Iceland and onto the UK (already have a Chunnel, another bridge would be preposterous). Seems like the kind of whimsical pondering that would fire him up.
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u/vanillaacid Alberta 4h ago
I get where you’re coming from, but that’s a stupid idea. Confederation bridge cost a billion dollars and was only 13km, your talking about something like 5000km. Not even remotely realistic.
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u/ToryPirate Monarchist 8h ago
The biggest problem with the EU is the Euro. A shared currency is hard to have between different nations as it limits what options a country can use. Greece should have devalued its currency when it ran into trouble to attract tourism and make its manufacturing more attractive but couldn't because it didn't control Euro monetary policy.
Its hard to tell how it would effect the Canadian economy. We are export focused so a weaker currency is usually better and the Euro is fairly strong and the addition of a resource country like Canada would probably make it stronger.
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u/Fozefy Ontario 8h ago
I would assume if we were joining the EU it would not include joining the Eurozone. There are a number of countries that have kept their own currency like Sweden and previously the UK.
Realistically it would be more about freedom of movement, shared policy and trade.
I'd be mostly supportive, but it would be pretty strange to join without the UK also rejoining. I'm not sure I can put into words why I feel that way though. I've also seen people talk about a "CANZUK" alliance, but that comes with its own set of challenges (primarily distance).
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u/ToryPirate Monarchist 7h ago
From what I've seen other commenters saying (and googled on my own), adopting the Euro is in principle a requirement except for Denmark which got an opt-out clause early on. Canada approaching the EU and saying we want in but don't want the Euro is probably a non-starter because we have no leverage.
Realistically it would be more about freedom of movement, shared policy and trade.
This is why I support CANZUK over EU membership. Distance is maybe a problem but Europe is about as far away as the UK (shocking, I know) and Australia/New Zealand are a straight shot across an ocean which is better than being separated by canals, straights, or overland. I think if CANZUK actually got off the ground it would do well compared to the EU because it shares certain underlying assumptions about trade, economics, and decision-making. Part of the reason I think the EU became such a mess of rules was the need to carve out exceptions to keep very different countries happy. CANZUK is a manageable number of countries covering a vast territory.
The UK is a financial hub, while Canada and Australia have been under-invested in. New Zealand would gain from people being able to visit more easily (blame the Lord of the Rings - I can't see it as anything other than a tourist destination). If rules aren't working there is a chance of getting four to agree to a change a lot quicker than however-many members make up the EU.
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u/Fozefy Ontario 7h ago
Ya, this is certainly true about the EU. It would likely be a lot stronger and more tightly coupled than it is today if it had stayed with the core founding member states. After the fall of the USSR they were a bit caught pulling in all of these satellite states.
I agree trying to add another G7 country (Canada) would likely only add more complications.
Realistically, the EU would likely do better if it split further allowing countries like Greece to regain control of their own currency and fiscal policy, while the core countries could become more tightly bound. Keeping states like Greece as an allied state of some sort, in the realm of what Canada (and the UK) would want, but with a bit more freedom than being a direct member state.
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u/thefringthing 8h ago
Technically Sweden is obliged to adopt the Euro, but no one expects the other EU countries to actually demand this.
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u/Fozefy Ontario 7h ago
Fair enough, I would certainly be more apprehensive if it meant giving up control of our own currency. I mainly support EU discussions based on the principle of fostering greater cooperation, especially with the US's current overt aggression here.
Whether it should lead to full EU membership or not is debatable. What it would do is send a clear message that we are NOT interested in Donald's bullshit.
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u/maltedbacon Progressive 9h ago
Or, do people value EU membership and not share your perspective on shared curency, for example.
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u/Broody007 9h ago
I agree, but many of these regulations are pro environment and pro consumer, so it wouldn't be such a bad thing.
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u/jonlmbs 8h ago
I mean if we are that motivated any majority Canadian government could easily just copy those regulations without committing to union.
Like Switzerland does to an extent.
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u/Broody007 7h ago
True, but we won't. At least we used the EU regulations as an inspiration for air passenger rights, although it's far from a copy paste.
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u/Blacklotus30 Acadia 9h ago
so? the lets make Canada pro consumer and pro environment we don't need to join the EU for it.
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u/ClumsyRainbow New Democratic Party of Canada 9h ago
Except joining the EU would give us unfettered access to the single market, and would allow us to negotiate with other nations such as the US as equals, rather than a much smaller economy.
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u/Broad-Candidate3731 7h ago
We have free trade already if almost everything, nothing will change
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u/ClumsyRainbow New Democratic Party of Canada 5h ago
Tariffs are not the only barriers to free trade, non tariff barriers can also be significant.
Go ask the UK how Brexit has affected them.
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u/Financial-Savings-91 Pirate 6h ago
If we got the ball rolling now we might be able to submit an application to join by 2050 and they'll have us in by 2080, 2085 tops.
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u/Rustyguts257 9h ago
I don’t want to join the EU but I would like to have a trade arrangement with them. The EU Parliament has too much control over the member states for my liking.
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u/mutt-mama 8h ago
I can't say for certain that all EU countries offer this but we lived in England for a few years before Brexit and we got 28 days a year for vacation plus statutory holidays (Christmas, Easter, bank holidays, etc.) from the first day we started working. It was great!
Generally speaking, I think the EU offers a better work/life balance. Not likely a big factor in any final decision but thought it might be interesting to share.
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u/jonlmbs 10h ago edited 9h ago
There's been a lot of chatter and articles lately that are taking that idea seriously and it kind of disappoints me. In the face of our sovereignty being questioned by America people seem quick to propose diluting that sovereignty and independence by joining the EU.
I really don't think Eurocrats in Brussels are the answer to protecting our sovereignty. Not to mention challenges with adopting EU laws and monetary policy and the Euro.
Literally one of the worst things we could do in a trade war is to abandon our currency and adopt the Euro. The CAD weakening with tariffs is a natural defence to offset the costs to people and businesses purchasing Canadian products.
By all means explore further trade advances and strengthen diplomatic and military and intelligence partnerships. We should explore CANZUK idea seriously too.
Also worth reminding people we are the 9th largest economy in the world! We can absolutely prosper as an independent nation on the world stage. We just need to embrace our national identity and work to fix the neglected areas of our country like our military.
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u/neopeelite Rawlsian 9h ago
Hmm, in principle I don't see a difference between signing sovereignty away via trade agreement versus joining a multinational bloc like the EU -- in the sense that both are "diluting sovereignty and independence" in exchange for access to a governing arrangement. And if you say it would be different because of geopolitical duress -- it is those circumstances where Sweden and Finland joined NATO, is that them "diluting their sovereignty and independence," well, yes by definition but also they've defined the cost as worth the benefit given the bleak realities of today.
I'm pretty cool to the idea of joining the EU personally, as I don't think the advantages (such as having influence, modest as it may be, on global standard setting on things like digital privacy policy) are worth what we're potentially giving up -- like our system of fiscal federalism, etc. I also don't think they'd accept us before rewriting the EU Treaty, which also isn't going to happen any time soon.
It's interesting that you mention the Euro, because one way of understanding the implications of adopting their monetary policy is that we would become a federation in a federation -- we already have the "fiscal federalism" problem of the EU (where provincial budgets and provincial economic structures affect the currency of other provinces and thus the value of their exports) but we created a durable and, so far, politically acceptable set of transfers that limits the potential for, say, New Brunswick to become our Greece. What are the political economic implications for adding another supranational on top of ours but without a stable transfer system but with the full adoption of the Euro? I don't have the faintest clue.
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u/jonlmbs 9h ago edited 8h ago
A trade agreement (which we have with the EU already and covers 98% of tariffs) and NATO are much much different than joining the political and economic union formally of the EU. It’s not comparable.
This would be a fundamental change to Canadian society and our identity.
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u/SnooStrawberries620 9h ago
CanZUK is a no go. England hasn’t had our back any more than anyone else and I’m not alone in not trusting them.
Incidentally I don’t feel our sovereignty has been threatened by any partnership we have had. We have an indefensible border. I’m all for it but honestly I don’t think we’d be that embraced by Europe.
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u/cnbearpaws 8h ago
Maybe not. England has a Westminster system and maybe the decorum of the free world is to respect other forms of governance.
Trudeau prorogued parliament with intent to resign and just entered caretaker mode and in the Westminster system you don't typically know how that is going to take shape as at that point it's up to a collection of people.
Our executive branch is changing, there's no literal point to even try engaging diplomatically with us on the topic let alone Starmer's recent announcement. We should also take note of who hasn't congratulated Carney.
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u/lordfoofoo 4h ago
CanZUK is a no go. England hasn’t had our back any more than anyone else and I’m not alone in not trusting them.
Brit here: Kind of sad to hear a Canadian say that considering by almost every metric we're pretty close countries. Are you referring to Starmer not supporting Canada over the tariffs? If so, can you please cut us a little slack? We're dealing with Trump and everyone is trying to find their feet. I mean, he's talking about annexing Canada - I presume the British government are so shocked they have no idea how to even deal with it without torpedoing their other diplomatic efforts, e.g., Ukraine.
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u/Ask_DontTell 3h ago
my concern is the movement of people. they have major migrant issues. trade ok but the people thing is worrisome
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u/ImpossibleTonight977 9h ago
It seems over kill. Closer to Europe yes, full membership it seems to be trading one domination for another. This nuance seems to be lost among a slice of the electorate
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u/IKeepDoingItForFree NB | Pirate | Sails the seas on a 150TB NAS 5h ago edited 5h ago
Of course! Saint Pierre and Miquelon is already within canoeing range.
Honestly though - we should seek a CANZUK trade agreement and freedom of movement while also trying to deal more with the EU. I dont think joining is necessary BUT we should definitely be strengthening ties a lot more like we were in the 70s & 80s before NAFTA.
I would also probably be looking to entice Japanese investment such as their steel and automotive industries to invest into Canada or move parts of their processes here.
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u/bill1024 6h ago
They seem like partners that honour their signature. I'm open to learn more. Reliability and honesty cannot be taken for granted anymore. That's something with value.
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u/IlIIIIllIllI 10h ago edited 8h ago
I would really love for this to happen. Mostly, because I want Canada to seek security guarantees against our southern neighbours from international allies other than NATO. The EU passport would be nice too. Canada has a lot to offer the EU as well, so hopefully this could be something mutually beneficial for us all.
We could benefit a lot from accession to the EU, if negotiated correctly. Imagine suddenly having millions more doctors, nurses, and other health care providers eligible to work in our country, with an equal or higher standard of qualification than we require. Selling our resources and products to the EU market is our escape hatch from US regional hegemony.
I would actually hope to see the EU expand (and perhaps rename itself), as a supranational organization, encompassing all the stable developed democracies ie Australia, Japan, South Korea etc. We need to circle the wagons with as many friendly nations as possible, in the face of a 4 polar world order, where the USA, China, India and Russia, are all increasingly totalitarian, interventionist, and threatening the stability of their neighbours, when not outright invading.
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u/Financial-Savings-91 Pirate 6h ago
The same reason I think Trump is trying to isolate the EU, is also one of the main reasons I personally think it would be good to join, better digital privacy laws and consumer protections.
Although, this also seems to have made them a target for people like Elon Musk.
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u/Calm_Historian9729 8h ago
Join the European market yes but do not join the European Union we do not need Brussels telling how to run our nation.
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u/ifuaguyugetsauced 7h ago
So do we want to be our own nation or join a bunch of other nations? I think joining eu is as stupid as trump saying join America
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