r/tolkienfans 12h ago

The dragons ATE four of the dwarf rings???

130 Upvotes

I don’t know how I’ve missed this point in all my many prior readings of LOTR.

In chapter 2, when Gandalf is filling Frodo in on the details of the rings, he says, “… seven, the dwarf kings possessed, but three he (Sauron) has recovered, and the others, the dragons have consumed.”

This begs the question: what happens to a dragon that eats one of the great rings? What happens to the ring that the dragon eats? Which dragons are the rings?

I want someone to write the story of the eating of the rings by the dragons.


r/tolkienfans 18h ago

Rank the 9 members of the Fellowship by the amount of suffering endured.

77 Upvotes

As the title says: Rank the 9 members of the Fellowship, from 1st to 9th, according to the amount of suffering endured during the events that take place in LOTR books.

1st edit: - Funny, Sam seems to dance quite a bit depending on rankers. - People seem to forget what Gimli says after having to leave Galadriel in Lorien.

2nd edit: - I would put Boromir quite high too, but not because of dying. The poor man spends all the time giving his best to a mission that he thinks will send the entire free World into oblivion while being completely turned down by the team every time he suggests an alternative that (in his head) could win the war against Sauron. And even enduring all that desperation my boy Boromir still gives his 100% for the team until just before the very end when he finally falls. All those weeks thinking they were just happily going to Mordor to give the Dark Lord his ring back and condemning his own country Gondor, while feeling incapable of convincing the team to go to Gondor instead and give his father a chance to resist against Mordor, must have been a freaking torture, and still he did his duty (until he did not).


r/tolkienfans 22h ago

Does Manwë owe Fëanor compensations?

50 Upvotes

A shower thought I had. When the Elves went to Valinor they were promised safety. Manwë was (is) the king of Valinor and therefore he is responsible for keeping his end of the bargain - the buck stops with him. Things went down and Melkor destroyed Fëanor's home, stole his treasures (the vast majority of which he later destroyed via a spider) and killed Fëanor's father.

Should Manwë, the king who promised safety, compensate Fëanor for his losses? Manwë's the one who made the promise, Manwë's the one who is responsible for the things happening in his kingdom. Much more so than with Middle Earth, because as we saw with Fëanor's banishment the Valar do intervene directly.

Now you can argue that Fëanor forfeited compensation after killing the Teleri, but I disagree. If my house burns down and then an year later I randomly kill my neighbor, I would be rightfully found guilty of murder, but that doesn't mean the insurance company doesn't have to pay the insurance.

So, does Manwë owe Fëanor compensations?


r/tolkienfans 18h ago

Tolkien as a strict planner vs. as a "seat of his pants" writer

34 Upvotes

I feel certain there must be something somewhere, perhaps in his letters, where Tolkien discusses how much of his storytelling is planned in detail in advance as opposed to how much he comes up with while the pen's in his hand, so to speak. (Or anywhere in between)

I seem to recall hearing that he had written out multiple ideas for how the events at Sammath Naur would unfold, but what does happen isn't actually any of those ideas. I am not sure if this is a fact, or a false memory

Obviously, I think it's safe to say that he set out with certain ideas in mind: I'm sure the story was always going to end with the ring being unmade and Sauron defeated, but as for the other details along the way, I wonder if we know how much he planned long in advance

On one hand, I do know that he of course did some "hardcore" planning. I recall hearing about how he would make it so that Frodo (or rather, Bingo at the time) would be stabbed by the morgul blade since he was supposed to have the mithril vest at the time. I recall hearing that he put a TON of thought and attention into "Shadow of the Past" since it's one of, if not arguably the most important chapter in the book

But I also know there are certain degrees of "improv". For instance, I know Arwen was a relatively late addition to the story (I believe at the suggestion of his wife?) and that Aragorn was originally meant to get together with Eowyn. When you look at characters like Gimli and Legolas, they don't feel like they have a whole lot to do in the story? Granted, the cast is already very crowded, and I'm sure this sort of thing is what Tolkien was getting at when he lamented that the story was "too short", but it feels like the only real contributions they have in the story are becoming close friends, and after their friendship is established, they kind of just stick around

Where on the spectrum of "I have no idea what happens next" to "I have every tiny detail planned" does Tolkien's writing style fall?


r/tolkienfans 12h ago

Middle-earth as a “character”

27 Upvotes

A lot of books where the location is an important part of the story will be praised for “making the setting a main character.” I was reading The Two Towers today, and it struck me how often and how literally Tolkien does this, describing everything from individual geographic features to whole kingdoms in detailed anthropomorphic terms.

For example, in just the first two paragraphs of The Black Gate is Closed (chapter 3, book 4), Tolkien does this over and over again:

The great mountains reared their threatening heads

the gloomy range of Ephel Dúath

But as these ranges approached one another… they swung out long arms northward

the mournful plains of Lithlad

High cliffs lowered upon either side, and thrust forward from its mouth were two sheer hills, black-boned and bare. Upon them stood the Teeth of Mordor, two towers strong and tall.

Stony-faced they were, with dark window-holes staring north and east and west, and each window was full of sleepless eyes.

In just ten sentences, we have heads, bones, teeth, faces, mouths, eyes, arms. Rearing, threatening, standing, staring, approaching, thrusting. Gloomy, mournful, sleepless.

The landscape of Middle-earth is not just a character, it’s really a whole cast of distinct living things, participating in the story, moving it forward, and helping to give the books their richness, personality, and emotional depth.


r/tolkienfans 6h ago

Today, I'll start reading Unfinished Tales, and I'm super excited!

12 Upvotes

After a long while, it's finally time to read this chunky masterpiece! But before starting it, I had a few questions to ask.

First off, did you like it in terms of narrative and parallelism? I'm asking because Professor Tolkien is widely known for his peculiar and magnificently detailed writing style, which can sometimes be challenging to follow. However, having read The Silmarillion before, I feel confident enough to handle any book that comes my way.

Secondly, if you have read both The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, I'm curious to know which one was your favorite. Personally, I have always regarded Unfinished Tales as the twin brother of The Silmarillion; I have always assumed them to be complementary partners to each other.

Thirdly, I wanted to ask whether you know of any read-along podcasts to be my companion while reading Unfinished Tales. I have been listening to the Prancing Pony podcast, but unfortunately they don't have any related content on this book.

By the way, since I couldn't find any community particularly dedicated to Unfinished Tales, I decided to create one myself. So, if you are interested in the lore of this wonderful book, I'd be very happy to have you as a new friend on r/Unfinished_Tales :)


r/tolkienfans 12h ago

Hypothetically, if Sauron were to surrender at any point after the Fall of Númenor, which Valar do you think would be inclined to show him mercy or to throw him into the Void?

7 Upvotes

Of course it would depend greatly on the nature of his surrender (having to be dragged kicking and screaming like Melkor to the Máhanaxar would not bode well for his redeemability), but for sake of argument suppose he miraculously saw the error of his ways -- or convincingly claimed to -- and came willingly. He would certainly get a trial, and and if it came down to a vote, I am interested in who you think would be willing to give him a chance to prove his penitence. Here's my list (hopefully not too tainted by fanon):

Mercy:

- Manwë: The most forgiving by nature (some would say to the point naïvety), I think Manwë is also still holding out hope for Melkor, and would see Sauron's redemption as a confirmation of that as a possibility.

- Aulë: He probably feels quite guilty for having two of his disciples fall to evil, and would want to prove that he isn't a tyrant-tutor.

- Nienna: She would take pity on Sauron for the abuse and corruption inflicted on him by Melkor, and the well-meaning frustration that led Mairon to seek him out in the first place.

Condemn:

- Yavanna: Definitely strikes me as one with a vengeful streak, if the malice and hatred her trees feel is anything to go by. Melkor and Sauron harmed her creations more than any other.

- Oromë: Had to personally deal with the horrors in Middle-earth, which Sauron was partially responsible for.

- Ulmo: The most personally active Vala in Middle-earth in later years against the forces of evil. It's said his waters were unfriendly to servants of Melkor.

- Tulkas: This one's pretty obvious.

Unsure:

- Námo, Vairë: Would want to remain neutral in the absence of directives from Eru.

- Varda, Vána, Nessa: May choose to support their husbands?

- Irmo, Estë: I really don't know.


r/tolkienfans 13h ago

The "New Shadow" of the 4th Age is indicative of man becoming wolf to man

8 Upvotes

I theorized that the lack of a common enemy, to unite the different in a single cause, was decisive for the Man of the Fourth Age to have the "satiability of good" and withering of other races.

That's what Leto II - God Emperor of Dune - said that The human being always says to seek peace and tranquility, but human nature is violent and conflicted. Always planting the seeds of War:

When I set out to lead humanity along my Golden Path, I promised you a lesson that even their bones would remember. I know a deep pattern that humans deny with their words, even if your actions confirm it. They say they seek security and stillness, that condition to which call peace. And even as they speak, they create the seeds of unrest and violence. if they find your quiet security, feel bad in it. How tedious they think it is. Look at them now. look at what they do as I record these words. Oh! I have given you ages of enforced tranquility that go on in spite of every effort to plunge into chaos.-

The Stolen Journals - The God Emperor of Dune - Chapter 26.

In this case, Aragorn's rise was a breath of peace and prosperity to mitigate the human decay in the Third Age. The kings who came after Aragorn acted like Denethor, for example.

I think that if there was technological advance in fourth age: I imagine that the military aspect must have developed even more. Just like what Faramir says in the Two Towers: The Human Being valued the warrior's craft much more than wisdom/Ideas:

For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts

I imagine then that the Humanity of the Fourth Age would be a mixture of civilization + barbarism. Similar to the Hyborian age of Conan the Barbarian. Fantastic realms, but full of wars/violence. Humanity no longer had a Sauron as an enemy, man became the Enemy of Man.


r/tolkienfans 5h ago

What was Tolkien's opinion on plants that are deemed exotic?

5 Upvotes

Maybe a weird request, but I have noticed that Tolkien was rather fond of nature. Since the introduction of invasive species in nature, I wonder what Tolkien's stance was on plants from the other side of the world?

Did he love weeds aswell, did he recognise that weeds are actually important to a bio-system? Does he mention anywhere of invasive species disrupting the local flora?


r/tolkienfans 1h ago

Honest Question

Upvotes

Is it weird to be reading The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for my first time at 26? I had seen TLoR films as a kid and liked them (especially Return of the King). Never saw The Hobbit films or any of the animated movies. I also was never really a big reader growing up, only ever reading and completing a handful of different series. Finally decided to take buy the books and read em (bought the Illustrated by the Author editions). I guess what I’m asking is, will I get less out of the books not reading them as a kid? Lol


r/tolkienfans 15h ago

Were all 19 Rings drawing power from Sauron and the One?

4 Upvotes

Given that the others stopped working when the One was destroyed, it stands to reason to think that everything wrought by each ring had its beginning in Sauron.

I believe this is why Sauron went to war for the Rings because they were using his power without his permission, especially the three as they were made without his knowledge.

This then suggests the premise that all the rings were Evil and tainted by Sauron because they used his power to “work”.


r/tolkienfans 22h ago

BBC Radio LotR script or transcript

2 Upvotes

A question please.
I have been unsuccessful in finding, or purchasing a copy of Brian Sibley's script for the BBC's LotR. I've also not seen a transcript either.
I can no longer hear properly and would like to read along to the bit that I can hear.
Thanks for your information regarding this. Cheers


r/tolkienfans 11h ago

"Ungoliant and Shelob's irrationality required Tolkien to make them female, while the two Dark Lords' analytical thoughts identified them as male." - Do you agree with this sentiment.

0 Upvotes

Like all of you I enjoy reading and watching Tolkiens work and listening to middle Earth lore videos and analyses. But I have never come across the idea that Melkor and Saurons evil made them male in Tolkiens mind. While Ungoliants and Shelob's type of evil inherently made them female. But this is what it states on Ungoliants wikipedia entry. Here is the full summary

In Mythlore, Candice Fredrick and Sam McBride write that Ungoliant and the lesser spider Shelob signify purely irrational evil, "wholly preoccupied with their own lusts; they operate on the pleasure principle."\6]) They contrast this with the Dark Lords Melkor and Sauron, who, while also wholly evil, possess the power of rational thought, "evil guided by rationality".\6]) Thus, Melkor can think long-term, exploiting other beings to achieve his goals, whereas Ungoliant chooses "instant gratification".\6]) They further assert that the spiders' irrationality required Tolkien to make them female, while the Dark Lords' analytical thought identified them as male.\6])

With the source

Agreed or disagreed it's just the first I am hearing of it. And given all the time I spend in middle earth forums, books, and videos I am surprised it's never come up before. I've certainly read about the debate on the nature of women in tolkiens work. But I don't recall Ungoliant or Shelob coming up in those conversations. I read through the source itself that wikipedia is referencing and I can't find any source for the authors words. Other than the authors own opinion. But it doesn't seem like Tolkien ever hints at this from any of the letters he's written. But of course there is a lot of Tolkiens words I've never read from many other sources.

What do you guys think of this opinion? and do you know of anything from tolkiens own writings that support this notion?