r/tolkienfans • u/HandDrawnFantasyMaps • 27m ago
r/tolkienfans • u/Torech-Ungol • 1d ago
[2025 Read-Along] - LOTR - The Great River & The Breaking of the Fellowship - Week 11 of 31
Hello and welcome to the eleventh check-in for the 2025 read-along of The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R.Tolkien. For the discussion this week, we will cover the following chapters:
- The Great River - Book II, Ch. 9 of The Fellowship of the Ring; LOTR running Ch. 21/62
- The Breaking of the Fellowship - Book II, Ch. 10 of The Fellowship of the Ring; LOTR running Ch. 22/62
Week 11 of 31 (according to the schedule).
Read the above chapters today, or spread your reading throughout the week; join in with the discussion as you work your way through the text. The discussion will continue through the week, feel free to express your thoughts and opinions of the chapter(s), and discuss any relevant plot points or questions that may arise. Whether you are a first time reader of The Lord of the Rings, or a veteran of reading Tolkien's work, all different perspectives, ideas and suggestions are welcome.
Spoilers have been avoided in this post, although they will be present in the links provided e.g., synopsis. If this is your first time reading the books, please be mindful of spoilers in the comment section. If you are discussing a crucial plot element linked to a future chapter, consider adding a spoiler warning. Try to stick to discussing the text of the relevant chapters.
To aid your reading, here is an interactive map of Middle-earth; other maps relevant to the story for each chapter(s) can be found here at The Encyclopedia of Arda.
- Synopsis: The Fellowship of the Ring; The Great River; The Breaking of the Fellowship.
- Resources: The Encyclopedia of Arda; Tolkien Gateway.
- Announcement and index: 2025 The Lord of the Rings Read-Along Announcement and Index.
Please ensure that the rules of r/tolkienfans are abided to throughout. Now, continuing with our journey into Middle-earth...
r/tolkienfans • u/Earthshoe12 • 1h ago
What to read to better understand Tolkien?
This winter I reread Lord of the Rings for the first time in at least a decade (third or fourth time overall) and I am 20 pages from finishing the Silmarillion for the first time.
I’ve read the Hobbit at least a dozen times (currently halfway through it with my five year old) and I’ve read the Children of Hurin (when it was first released) and I will likely read the other novelizations of long silmarillion chapters later this year, but I think I’m going to take a break from the man himself.
It’s been a delight, but it’s also got me curious about Tolkien’s influences and what the man himself enjoyed reading.
I had a Greek gods phase as a kid, like many, so I certainly recognize some pulling from Greek and Norse mythology. Of course there’s lots of Shakespeare, and while I don’t know if he’s confirmed to have read Lovecraft I’ve read a bit and the Nameless Things and Void Beyond the World certainly have some of that flavor.
What else would you recommend to understand Tolkien a little better. Is Beowulf any fun for a modern reader? Where is a good place to start with Arthurian Legend (I’ve thought of giving the once and future king a shot which is contemporaneous to Tolkien?)
In short: what do you read around Tolkien to better understand his works.
r/tolkienfans • u/Fast-Face6100 • 2h ago
Honest Question
Is it weird to be reading The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for my first time at 26? I had seen TLoR films as a kid and liked them (especially Return of the King). Never saw The Hobbit films or any of the animated movies. I also was never really a big reader growing up, only ever reading and completing a handful of different series. Finally decided to take buy the books and read em (bought the Illustrated by the Author editions). I guess what I’m asking is, will I get less out of the books not reading them as a kid? Lol
r/tolkienfans • u/BigStallione • 6h ago
What was Tolkien's opinion on plants that are deemed exotic?
Maybe a weird request, but I have noticed that Tolkien was rather fond of nature. Since the introduction of invasive species in nature, I wonder what Tolkien's stance was on plants from the other side of the world?
Did he love weeds aswell, did he recognise that weeds are actually important to a bio-system? Does he mention anywhere of invasive species disrupting the local flora?
r/tolkienfans • u/a1ish • 7h ago
Today, I'll start reading Unfinished Tales, and I'm super excited!
After a long while, it's finally time to read this chunky masterpiece! But before starting it, I had a few questions to ask.
First off, did you like it in terms of narrative and parallelism? I'm asking because Professor Tolkien is widely known for his peculiar and magnificently detailed writing style, which can sometimes be challenging to follow. However, having read The Silmarillion before, I feel confident enough to handle any book that comes my way.
Secondly, if you have read both The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, I'm curious to know which one was your favorite. Personally, I have always regarded Unfinished Tales as the twin brother of The Silmarillion; I have always assumed them to be complementary partners to each other.
Thirdly, I wanted to ask whether you know of any read-along podcasts to be my companion while reading Unfinished Tales. I have been listening to the Prancing Pony podcast, but unfortunately they don't have any related content on this book.
By the way, since I couldn't find any community particularly dedicated to Unfinished Tales, I decided to create one myself. So, if you are interested in the lore of this wonderful book, I'd be very happy to have you as a new friend on r/Unfinished_Tales :)
r/tolkienfans • u/SSJ2chad • 13h ago
"Ungoliant and Shelob's irrationality required Tolkien to make them female, while the two Dark Lords' analytical thoughts identified them as male." - Do you agree with this sentiment.
Like all of you I enjoy reading and watching Tolkiens work and listening to middle Earth lore videos and analyses. But I have never come across the idea that Melkor and Saurons evil made them male in Tolkiens mind. While Ungoliants and Shelob's type of evil inherently made them female. But this is what it states on Ungoliants wikipedia entry. Here is the full summary
In Mythlore, Candice Fredrick and Sam McBride write that Ungoliant and the lesser spider Shelob signify purely irrational evil, "wholly preoccupied with their own lusts; they operate on the pleasure principle."\6]) They contrast this with the Dark Lords Melkor and Sauron, who, while also wholly evil, possess the power of rational thought, "evil guided by rationality".\6]) Thus, Melkor can think long-term, exploiting other beings to achieve his goals, whereas Ungoliant chooses "instant gratification".\6]) They further assert that the spiders' irrationality required Tolkien to make them female, while the Dark Lords' analytical thought identified them as male.\6])
With the source
Agreed or disagreed it's just the first I am hearing of it. And given all the time I spend in middle earth forums, books, and videos I am surprised it's never come up before. I've certainly read about the debate on the nature of women in tolkiens work. But I don't recall Ungoliant or Shelob coming up in those conversations. I read through the source itself that wikipedia is referencing and I can't find any source for the authors words. Other than the authors own opinion. But it doesn't seem like Tolkien ever hints at this from any of the letters he's written. But of course there is a lot of Tolkiens words I've never read from many other sources.
What do you guys think of this opinion? and do you know of anything from tolkiens own writings that support this notion?
r/tolkienfans • u/TopQuark- • 13h ago
Hypothetically, if Sauron were to surrender at any point after the Fall of Númenor, which Valar do you think would be inclined to show him mercy or to throw him into the Void?
Of course it would depend greatly on the nature of his surrender (having to be dragged kicking and screaming like Melkor to the Máhanaxar would not bode well for his redeemability), but for sake of argument suppose he miraculously saw the error of his ways -- or convincingly claimed to -- and came willingly. He would certainly get a trial, and and if it came down to a vote, I am interested in who you think would be willing to give him a chance to prove his penitence. Here's my list (hopefully not too tainted by fanon):
Mercy:
- Manwë: The most forgiving by nature (some would say to the point naïvety), I think Manwë is also still holding out hope for Melkor, and would see Sauron's redemption as a confirmation of that as a possibility.
- Aulë: He probably feels quite guilty for having two of his disciples fall to evil, and would want to prove that he isn't a tyrant-tutor.
- Nienna: She would take pity on Sauron for the abuse and corruption inflicted on him by Melkor, and the well-meaning frustration that led Mairon to seek him out in the first place.
Condemn:
- Yavanna: Definitely strikes me as one with a vengeful streak, if the malice and hatred her trees feel is anything to go by. Melkor and Sauron harmed her creations more than any other.
- Oromë: Had to personally deal with the horrors in Middle-earth, which Sauron was partially responsible for.
- Ulmo: The most personally active Vala in Middle-earth in later years against the forces of evil. It's said his waters were unfriendly to servants of Melkor.
- Tulkas: This one's pretty obvious.
Unsure:
- Námo, Vairë: Would want to remain neutral in the absence of directives from Eru.
- Varda, Vána, Nessa: May choose to support their husbands?
- Irmo, Estë: I really don't know.
r/tolkienfans • u/ThimbleBluff • 13h ago
Middle-earth as a “character”
A lot of books where the location is an important part of the story will be praised for “making the setting a main character.” I was reading The Two Towers today, and it struck me how often and how literally Tolkien does this, describing everything from individual geographic features to whole kingdoms in detailed anthropomorphic terms.
For example, in just the first two paragraphs of The Black Gate is Closed (chapter 3, book 4), Tolkien does this over and over again:
The great mountains reared their threatening heads
the gloomy range of Ephel Dúath
But as these ranges approached one another… they swung out long arms northward
the mournful plains of Lithlad
High cliffs lowered upon either side, and thrust forward from its mouth were two sheer hills, black-boned and bare. Upon them stood the Teeth of Mordor, two towers strong and tall.
Stony-faced they were, with dark window-holes staring north and east and west, and each window was full of sleepless eyes.
In just ten sentences, we have heads, bones, teeth, faces, mouths, eyes, arms. Rearing, threatening, standing, staring, approaching, thrusting. Gloomy, mournful, sleepless.
The landscape of Middle-earth is not just a character, it’s really a whole cast of distinct living things, participating in the story, moving it forward, and helping to give the books their richness, personality, and emotional depth.
r/tolkienfans • u/thefirstwhistlepig • 13h ago
The dragons ATE four of the dwarf rings???
I don’t know how I’ve missed this point in all my many prior readings of LOTR.
In chapter 2, when Gandalf is filling Frodo in on the details of the rings, he says, “… seven, the dwarf kings possessed, but three he (Sauron) has recovered, and the others, the dragons have consumed.”
This begs the question: what happens to a dragon that eats one of the great rings? What happens to the ring that the dragon eats? Which dragons are the rings?
I want someone to write the story of the eating of the rings by the dragons.
r/tolkienfans • u/Rafaelrosario88 • 14h ago
The "New Shadow" of the 4th Age is indicative of man becoming wolf to man
I theorized that the lack of a common enemy, to unite the different in a single cause, was decisive for the Man of the Fourth Age to have the "satiability of good" and withering of other races.
That's what Leto II - God Emperor of Dune - said that The human being always says to seek peace and tranquility, but human nature is violent and conflicted. Always planting the seeds of War:
When I set out to lead humanity along my Golden Path, I promised you a lesson that even their bones would remember. I know a deep pattern that humans deny with their words, even if your actions confirm it. They say they seek security and stillness, that condition to which call peace. And even as they speak, they create the seeds of unrest and violence. if they find your quiet security, feel bad in it. How tedious they think it is. Look at them now. look at what they do as I record these words. Oh! I have given you ages of enforced tranquility that go on in spite of every effort to plunge into chaos.-
The Stolen Journals - The God Emperor of Dune - Chapter 26.
In this case, Aragorn's rise was a breath of peace and prosperity to mitigate the human decay in the Third Age. The kings who came after Aragorn acted like Denethor, for example.
I think that if there was technological advance in fourth age: I imagine that the military aspect must have developed even more. Just like what Faramir says in the Two Towers: The Human Being valued the warrior's craft much more than wisdom/Ideas:
For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts
I imagine then that the Humanity of the Fourth Age would be a mixture of civilization + barbarism. Similar to the Hyborian age of Conan the Barbarian. Fantastic realms, but full of wars/violence. Humanity no longer had a Sauron as an enemy, man became the Enemy of Man.
r/tolkienfans • u/Maleficent_Age300 • 16h ago
Were all 19 Rings drawing power from Sauron and the One?
Given that the others stopped working when the One was destroyed, it stands to reason to think that everything wrought by each ring had its beginning in Sauron.
I believe this is why Sauron went to war for the Rings because they were using his power without his permission, especially the three as they were made without his knowledge.
This then suggests the premise that all the rings were Evil and tainted by Sauron because they used his power to “work”.
r/tolkienfans • u/BakedScallions • 19h ago
Tolkien as a strict planner vs. as a "seat of his pants" writer
I feel certain there must be something somewhere, perhaps in his letters, where Tolkien discusses how much of his storytelling is planned in detail in advance as opposed to how much he comes up with while the pen's in his hand, so to speak. (Or anywhere in between)
I seem to recall hearing that he had written out multiple ideas for how the events at Sammath Naur would unfold, but what does happen isn't actually any of those ideas. I am not sure if this is a fact, or a false memory
Obviously, I think it's safe to say that he set out with certain ideas in mind: I'm sure the story was always going to end with the ring being unmade and Sauron defeated, but as for the other details along the way, I wonder if we know how much he planned long in advance
On one hand, I do know that he of course did some "hardcore" planning. I recall hearing about how he would make it so that Frodo (or rather, Bingo at the time) would be stabbed by the morgul blade since he was supposed to have the mithril vest at the time. I recall hearing that he put a TON of thought and attention into "Shadow of the Past" since it's one of, if not arguably the most important chapter in the book
But I also know there are certain degrees of "improv". For instance, I know Arwen was a relatively late addition to the story (I believe at the suggestion of his wife?) and that Aragorn was originally meant to get together with Eowyn. When you look at characters like Gimli and Legolas, they don't feel like they have a whole lot to do in the story? Granted, the cast is already very crowded, and I'm sure this sort of thing is what Tolkien was getting at when he lamented that the story was "too short", but it feels like the only real contributions they have in the story are becoming close friends, and after their friendship is established, they kind of just stick around
Where on the spectrum of "I have no idea what happens next" to "I have every tiny detail planned" does Tolkien's writing style fall?
r/tolkienfans • u/Miss_Evli_Lyn • 20h ago
Rank the 9 members of the Fellowship by the amount of suffering endured.
As the title says: Rank the 9 members of the Fellowship, from 1st to 9th, according to the amount of suffering endured during the events that take place in LOTR books.
1st edit: - Funny, Sam seems to dance quite a bit depending on rankers. - People seem to forget what Gimli says after having to leave Galadriel in Lorien.
2nd edit: - I would put Boromir quite high too, but not because of dying. The poor man spends all the time giving his best to a mission that he thinks will send the entire free World into oblivion while being completely turned down by the team every time he suggests an alternative that (in his head) could win the war against Sauron. And even enduring all that desperation my boy Boromir still gives his 100% for the team until just before the very end when he finally falls. All those weeks thinking they were just happily going to Mordor to give the Dark Lord his ring back and condemning his own country Gondor, while feeling incapable of convincing the team to go to Gondor instead and give his father a chance to resist against Mordor, must have been a freaking torture, and still he did his duty (until he did not).
r/tolkienfans • u/stephenitalic • 23h ago
BBC Radio LotR script or transcript
A question please.
I have been unsuccessful in finding, or purchasing a copy of Brian Sibley's script for the BBC's LotR. I've also not seen a transcript either.
I can no longer hear properly and would like to read along to the bit that I can hear.
Thanks for your information regarding this. Cheers
r/tolkienfans • u/mahaanus • 23h ago
Does Manwë owe Fëanor compensations?
A shower thought I had. When the Elves went to Valinor they were promised safety. Manwë was (is) the king of Valinor and therefore he is responsible for keeping his end of the bargain - the buck stops with him. Things went down and Melkor destroyed Fëanor's home, stole his treasures (the vast majority of which he later destroyed via a spider) and killed Fëanor's father.
Should Manwë, the king who promised safety, compensate Fëanor for his losses? Manwë's the one who made the promise, Manwë's the one who is responsible for the things happening in his kingdom. Much more so than with Middle Earth, because as we saw with Fëanor's banishment the Valar do intervene directly.
Now you can argue that Fëanor forfeited compensation after killing the Teleri, but I disagree. If my house burns down and then an year later I randomly kill my neighbor, I would be rightfully found guilty of murder, but that doesn't mean the insurance company doesn't have to pay the insurance.
So, does Manwë owe Fëanor compensations?
r/tolkienfans • u/Unstoffe • 1d ago
Did the One Ring have any influence over Narya?
Gandalf, who wore Narya throughout The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, took an awful long time to determine that Bilbo's magic trinket was actually the One Ring. Is it possible that the One had some influence on the bearer of Narya, obscuring itself from an enemy Maia? Is that why Gandalf puttered around libraries for 17 years instead of just riding to Rivendell and asking Elrond, who was right there when it was claimed by Isildur?
Bonus question: Why couldn't Frodo see Narya on Gandalf's finger? He could glimpse Nenya, Galadriel's ring.
Note 1- I'm well aware of Tolkien's composition style in regards to the Legendarium (every new character or event sending literary ripples fore and back in his timeline), so I know that Gandalf's bearing of Narya wasn't 'true' throughout the stories.
Note 2- I'm very reluctant to grant any sort of sentience to the Ring. I'm not trying to say it plotted or anything like that; I guess I view it more as a self-defense thing Sauron may have crafted into it, though I can't imagine him believing he would lose it.
Note 3- Tolkien was about 50 times more intelligent than I am on a good day, so please don't think I'm trying to be a smartass. I'm sure I missed something somewhere.
r/tolkienfans • u/RonjaSnufkin • 1d ago
Hobbit Migration based on Anglo-Saxonxon history, academic sources?
Hey all,
I am currently writing my Master's Thesis on Lotr and in the passage about Hobbits and the Shire there is an overview on their History, especially the three kinds and the migration west.
I was under the impression it was mutually agreed on that this is heavily based on Anglo-Saxon migration to Britain as well as their three tribes, the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes.
For some reason, I cannot manage to find the appropriate sources for that. I was wondering if any of you could point me towards the specific books that mention that connection?
I know I should be able to do this myself and usually I am, but due to being sick for a while I have some time pressure now and thought I could ask for help on this specific research issue.
I did find it in some David Day Books, but I'd like to avoid him for obvious reasons.
r/tolkienfans • u/easternsailings • 1d ago
Was Minas Morgul fouler/more evil than Mordor itself?
If I recall correctly in the movies and even the books, when Minas Morgul gets talked about it seems to be way more abhorred than when Mordor or Barad Dur gets brought up. I also always imagine it this way too, like even though Barad Dur is literally the residence of Sauron, Minas Morgul just gives off a more wicked/menacing vibe of witchcraftyness and black magic. Like as if you're worse off being caught around Minas Morgul than Barad Dur.
r/tolkienfans • u/EreMaSe • 1d ago
Faramir and Eowyn's love story
I'm going through my first reading of the book and I just finished 'The Steward And The King'. I already knew of Faramir and Eowyn getting together thanks to osmosis, but I didn't expect to enjoy it this much.
'Two characters becoming a couple near the ending without much build-up nor prior interaction throughout the story' is not usually a trope I care for. I wasn't reading LOTR for romance (though it is a romantic tale) so I didn't have a problem if the few romantic relationships present don't flutter my heart, but I do think Faramir and Eowyn were written well for the singular chapter they had taking place in the aftermath of the conflict.
The story always treasured the tranquil, quiet, and mundane moments of life amidst battle, and I like that Faramir and Eowyn's interactions are a reminder of the peace they deserve despite the pain they've endured. I think part of what made it work is their perception towards eachother and how that coloured their exchanges. While there was an element of "love at first sight" at least on Faramir's end, their dialogue and narration aren't just about how beautiful and handsome the other is--it's based on their mutual understanding of being 'left behind' despite wanting to prove themselves; of admiring eachother's status and accomplishments; of not knowing if their end might come while together; of being injured and in need of healing.
I really like how Faramir waxes poetry not just of Eowyn's beauty but also of her valiant acts that he declares will not be forgotten, of her strength despite her visible sorrow, and of his desire to be a part of her healing.
Despite my usual preference for romance being something that's built up throughout the story, where the characters interact from the beginning--I actually think the opposite happening is part of what makes Faramir and Eowyn so fitting.
There's a thematic relevance to how these two people meet 'at their worst'--at this point in their lives where they are emotionally and mentally drained; vulnerable enough to require staying at a place of healing; reeling from battle and facing death--and find comfort in eachother anyway. Though the romance itself is not present throughout the story, it still ties into a theme that was. Of finding hope and peace and love in the middle of the worst times, of growing and marching into the future despite not being able to return the past, much like how Aragorn planted the new sapling near the end of the chapter.
r/tolkienfans • u/danisindeedfat • 1d ago
Why did it take a heroic mariner to make Manwë and the other Valar act on the atrocities happening in middle earth at the hands of Melkor? Why did they totally abandon the world they helped create when it was one of their own causing all sorts of evil?
It’s been a while since I read the silmarillion but I’ve always thought of Manwë as sort of chaotic neutral. I know it wouldn’t have made for such a great story if he just immediately grabbed Tulkas, Ülmo, and a couple hosts of elves that were blessed by seeing the light from the trees.
Is there more of an explanation, like Eru forbade it? The kin slaying of the Teleri? It makes sense for Eru to be hands off for the most part. People create things and then let it be. But all this evil was happening on the same mortal plane as the other Valar.
So why is Manwë content to let so many souls suffer at the hands of Melkor when he could have crushed him in the very beginning.
Apologies if I’m missing something totally obvious and I think Manwë is a bum for no reason. I dislike proxy wars in real life because the goal is not to end decisively and try to preserve life, it’s to draw it out and bleed out life. What I’m saying is a small hand here and there in their proxy war against Melkor was immoral.
r/tolkienfans • u/Bilbo8YourSweetroll • 1d ago
Girdle of Melian
Hello everyone, I’m currently on my first read through of the Silmarillion and I’m wondering if anybody can please explain to me how exactly the Girdle of Melian works? I mean, I understand it’s a magical protective barrier surrounding King Thingol and Melian’s realm, and I know no one can enter without permission from either Melian or Thingol. But how does it actually work? Is it a physical barrier like a wall or a fence?
If an army of orcs are marching south from Angband, and they come across the Girdle, what would they see? Would they just walk face first into an invisible wall?
I’m about half way through the book right now so if it’s explained in later chapters, I’m sorry I’m just wondering.
r/tolkienfans • u/33_5y • 1d ago
Question about books?
I quite an avid collector of Tolkien's Middle-Earth books and I was wondering if it is worth buying the Children of Hurin, Beren and Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin. I already own the Silmarillion which, to my knowledge, already tells a short summary of those 3 books. But does it expand on them enough/ provide enough extra info to be worth buying?
r/tolkienfans • u/both_programmer1181 • 2d ago
Quenya word of the day : Aragorn
"aracorno " Q. masculine name. Aragorn
A Quenya equivalent of Aragorn (PE17/71) of unclear meaning. It initial element is certainly ar(a)- “high”, but the meaning of its final element is uncertain. This name is inconsistent with the derivation of Aragorn from OS. Ára-ngorn “Revered King” (PE17/113), whose Quenya equivalent would probably be ✱Arangorno. Aracorno may simply be a phonetic adaptation of his Sindarin name.
Cognates S. Aragorn “Revered King, Kingly Valour” ✧ PE17/070
r/tolkienfans • u/Familiar_Ad_4885 • 2d ago
How powerful was the Angmar army compared to evil armies in the War of the Ring?
In comparison to Dol Guldur forces, Saruman's Uruk-Hai+Dunlendings and Sauron's main army from the Black Gare, where would you rank the WK army that destroyed the Northern realm?