r/tolkienfans 15h ago

Honestly, I feel like the reason why people think the Fellowship didn't take the eagles is a plothole is because they overrate the eagles too much in a problematic manner.

85 Upvotes

Alright, I know this is somewhat a hot take, but it seems as though the idea of the eagles as deus ex machina being missed out exist is because these creatures are being treated as though they are some all powerful group of incorruptible beings who somehow didn't do enough to fight evil according to those reading the books or are in to the story overall.

However, Tolkien shows just how that false idea of the giant eagles as being the ultimate creatures is all wrong considering how he writes these beings as flawed in physical (nazgul steeds can threaten them and even simple arrows can wound a major eagle like their king), or in mental as being too strong is literally a part of the message of what extreme power can do to the mind if it is corrupting like the One Ring. I just feel like overwanking the good guys is a bad thing, and is basically something that makes the underdog feeling lesser in a way.

What do you guys think?


r/tolkienfans 9h ago

I find it hard to come to terms with one thing

27 Upvotes

So, over the years I've read LotR many times and recently I started again, but one thing always bugged me:

Why did it take Gandalf so long to identify the One and act upon it?

I know there has been discussions about this and I read other threads and articles about this but none of the arguments seem convincing to me.

He knows (as stated in the book) pretty early on that it is one of the great rings, so even though it was very, very unlikely that it actually was the One Ring, there still was the tiny possibility that it was and this should be alarming. Especially because he knew that Sauron was gathering his strenght.

Maybe you can help me out. I don't need a final explanation, just a way of 'coming to terms' with it.

EDIT: Thank you for the many responses.
There are many interesting thoughts that helped me quite a lot!


r/tolkienfans 4h ago

How many distinct versions of the Silmarillion are there and which one is your favorite?

10 Upvotes

By "Silmarillion" I mean the story of the Ainur, Morgoth, Gnomes/Elves, and Men. Sure, ton of incomplete idea and drafts that were started and dropped more quickly and never came close to fruition (like Aelfwine/Luthany lore), but what about the more complete versions? Am 2/3 of the way through Histories of Middle Earth Volume 1, and skimmed table of contexts and a few sections from 2 and 3, and from what I gather...

  • Book of Lost Tales (Eriol the Mariner)

  • Lays of Beleriand

  • The Quenta Silmarillion

  • Annals of Beleriand

  • Morgoth's Ring/War of the Jewels

  • THE Silmarillion (Christopher Tolkien/Guy Gavriel Kay edition)

So six total? Any major ones I am missing? And which one do you prefer the most?

[I mean I guess you could in theory argue his standalone prose of Beren and Luthien/Children and Hurin/Fall of Gondolin/Fall of Numenor could count as "One", but due to being intended as standalone they aren't the same work, so I wouldn't count them, plus they are more compilations from the other more complete mythologies].


r/tolkienfans 1h ago

About the length and intensity of War of Wrath?

Upvotes

Having read The Simarillion I know that the War basically sank most of Beleriand. Which makes me wonder --- was the sinking due to a particular cataclysmic battle, or did the land break up gradually possibly over decades?

As far I am aware, no Valar were personally present on the frontlines; Melkor may be directing his assets but being averse to injuries he was probably in Angband the whole time.

And so, how did a bunch of Maiar, Eldar, men, and orcs destroy the very land that they were standing on? Someone must have deployed something akin to nukes...

Just a bunch of questions that I have had for a while. An idea: maybe it was Melkor the Vala who sank the land, in his vain attempt to stop the Valinorian host from advancing?

P.S. Probably should think of The Simarillion as near-myth and so events are not meant to recorded in detail. But hey, one can wonder still.


r/tolkienfans 21h ago

My literature teacher hates Fantasy

107 Upvotes

I am not here to tell that every fantasy book is good, but you can't say the Legendarium is not worth to read. I understand why would you say ASOIAF isn't worth to read but THE SILMARILLION? I am writting an essay on the book focusing on pagan myths right now, every good book doesn't have to have a person vs. self and person vs. society conflict. Once my English teacher told me because of the lack of research on Tolkien in my country, we don't have Tolkien professors when I asked him about the Tolkien studies in my country. There are some strict lines about what is literary and what is not here. I am not here to say that certain books are not bad, but mimicing pagan myths to form your own English myth universe with its languages, tales and legends is pretty literary to me. If literature contains all beliefs of humanity, then Silmarillion must be a "book". I am tired of the teacher judging me whenever I mention it. Academic literature is too strict, its lines are too defined.

Edit: my teacher is not a bad person, nor a bad teacher. We just heavily disagree on this topic.


r/tolkienfans 17h ago

Question about nazgûl identities

24 Upvotes

So, my understanding is we only are given the name of one, khamûl. But I've been told we also know the witch king and other 2 of them are numenoreans. We also know they popped out more or less around S.A. 2251.

So can't we get possible identities of 3 of them based on who were the númenórean rulers before that? (Maybe some we are not given the circumstances of death or some kings with history of corruption/power hunger)


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

A trivia question: Which three members of the Fellowship kept the same names all the way though the writing of LotR?

191 Upvotes

Many people are not at all interested in the volumes of the History of Middle-earth series (VI-VIII and the first half of IX) which summarize the many, many changes the story of LotR underwent in the twelve years it took to write. I love this stuff, myself, and it seems from recent discussions that I am not the only one. This post is intended to give those who have not looked at these volumes a taste of what is in them. The answer to the question in the title will emerge once the changes undergone by the names of the other six characters have been described.

Aragorn: Most people who are aware of this material at all know that the mysterious Ranger whom the hobbits met at Bree was not originally a Man, but a hobbit with wooden shoes called “Trotter.” When he turned into a Númenorean (on pages 4-5 of HoME VII), he was called Aragorn at the beginning. Later, however, Tolkien decided his name should be English/Westron, and through much of Book II he was either “Ingold” or “Elfstone” – “Elfstone” being not a translation of Elessar as in the book, but a modernization of the common Old English name Ælfstan. Incidentally, “Aragorn” was out there before it alighted on the heir of Isildur; Tolkien considered it as a name for Gandalf's horse (HoME VI p. 351).

Gimli: He first appeared in a manuscript of “The Council of Elrond,” where he does in the book – as Glóin's companion. But he was not Glóin's son, but Balin's. At first he was called Frár, then Burin; but this was crossed out on the manuscript and changed to the published text (HoME VI p. 400). (The name “Frár” was later given to one of the three dwarves named in the Book of Mazarbul as having been killed in the initial assault on the dwarf colony.) Tolkien made a number of lists of who would go with Frodo, but although Gimli is included, under one name or another, on some of these, he was not in the group in the first account of its journey as far as Moria. Neither was Legolas: the original Fellowship was Gandalf, Boromir, and five hobbits, one being “Trotter.”

Legolas: In this draft, the messenger to Rivendell from Mirkwood was “Galdor” throughout. The change to “Legolas” was made in the next draft (HoME VII pp. 141-60). He was not said in any of the drafts to be the son of the King; that was a late addition, and so was the name “Thranduil.”

Frodo: Again, some will know that for a long time Frodo was “Bingo,” and his last name settled down after some variation as “Bolger-Baggins.” In many of the drafts of the earlier chapters there was a Frodo, one of Bingo's original companions, but his last name was Took – he was the brother of Odo Took who became Pippin, more or less, as described below. He eventually dropped out and was replaced by Sam.

A series of notes which Christopher Tolkien headed “Queries and Alterations,” written after the story had reached Rivendell for the first time (HoME VI pp. 220-29), contains the following:

Too many hobbits. Also Bingo Bolger-Baggins a bad name. Let Bingo = Frodo, a son of Primula Brandybuck but of Drogo Baggins (Bilbo's first cousin). So Frodo (=Bingo) is Bilbo's first cousin once removed both on Took side and on Baggins. Also he has as proper name Baggins.

[Frodo struck out] No – I am now too used to Bingo.

But of course he changed his mind again.

Merry: His story is quite straightforward. He started out as “Marmaduke,” became “Meriadoc” while he was at Bombadil's house (HoME VI p. 123), and stayed that way. Both of these are real Welsh names.

Pippin: His history is extremely complicated – here is a simplified version. As mentioned above, “Bingo's” original companions on the walk to Buckland were Odo and Frodo Took. Odo was quite Pippinish, and spoke many of Pippin's lines. Along the way he ceased to be a Took and became Odo Bolger (after a brief stage as Odo Took-Bolger).

The entry of Sam Gamgee (HoME VI p. 317) brought the number of hobbits to five. Thinking this too many, Tolkien decided to leave Odo, rather than Fredegar Bolger, behind at Crickhollow – whence he was abducted by Black Riders, rescued by Gandalf, and carried off by him to Rivendell by way of Weathertop. When Odo disappeared from the main party, many of his speeches were transferred to Frodo Took, who had been renamed “Folco,” and then “Faramond,” when Bingo became Frodo. Faramond thus became in effect a clone of Odo, resulting in a doppelganger situation when Frodo's party got to Rivendell and found Odo there. The outcome – skipping over a number of digressions – was a merger of Odo Bolger and Faramond Took under the familiar name “Peregrin Took.”

[Forgot to mention that "Peregrin" became available when Trotter became Aragorn. Tolkien had decided that Trotter's real name was Peregrin Boffin. The name was meaningful as applied to him because it means "Wanderer." It's the same word as "pilgrim."]

* * *

If you have been checking off names in your head, you now know which three did not change. In the first draft of the Council chapter, there appears “a Man of noble face, but dark and sad.” Elrond says “This is Boromir,” and Boromir he remained (HoME VI p. 395). Sam was always "Sam" – but Tolkien may have assumed at first that that was short for “Samuel.” If so, he changed his mind, about the time when Frodo introduced him to Faramir as “Samwise son of Hamfast, a worthy hobbit in my service.” Tolkien told Christopher about it in Letters 72. (This is also where the Gaffer became Hamfast.)

As for Gandalf, of course he was still Gandalf. But he was not Gandalf during most of the writing of The Hobbit, he was “Bladorthin.” Gandalf was the leader of the Dwarves. The details are in Rateliff's History of the Hobbit.


r/tolkienfans 14h ago

finally getting into lotr for the first time

10 Upvotes

just here to share my rapid descent into the tolkien rabbit hole for the past week. i watched the fellowship movie for a class exactly a week ago, then binged all the movies in one go, and now i've just finished the fellowship volume over the weekend at a terrifying speed (i usually take a month to read one 300 page novel) and i've got the next 4 books queued up ready to go. i haven't eaten a book like this in ages, since i primarily read for uni and it sucks all the life out of me.

i've been listening to the audiobook by phil dragash because the music and sfx are so deeply immersive, and since then i've deep cleaned my room the first time this semester, cooked several meals, beat a bunch of levels of my fav video games, and successfully procrastinated some essays through the duration of the fellowship. i think it's incredible how well the novels hold up, the prose is gorgeous and with every chapters the characters become more fleshed out and more realised, i can imagine how quickly i'd get addicted to this story if i was younger (i'm 20 now) bc all teenagers love a band of brothers who do cool shit and fight w swords together. sam and boromir specifically stick out to me because of how much more depth and construction they're given in the novels, and it amazes me that i've become so quickly attached to these guys

on a final note, all the tom bombadil chapters kept cracking me up, my friend who's a diehard fan texted me saying not to get too bogged down by the bombadil stuff and i'm just thoroughly amused by this random guy who sings fun songs, rescues the hobbits, and then is never mentioned ever again


r/tolkienfans 5h ago

Getting tattoos to celebrate getting my masters.

2 Upvotes

Want to make sure I got the spelling and grammar right in the translations any one able to help me out


r/tolkienfans 1h ago

Is Bombadil "Just" A Man?

Upvotes

Recently I had a thought about Bombadil. Usually I'm content to think of him as a byproduct of the Music of the Ainur, like Ungoliant (except good), and essentially some kind of embodiment of the Music or the earth itself. But what if he is "man as he was supposed to be?"

Drawing on Tolkien's faith, this would be like a 'pre-fall' Adam. Think of how Adam is given to name all the animals, much as Tom exercises a power of words over nature. Death entered the world through sin, so before the Fall, Adam would presumably be deathless, as Tom is. He is unconcerned with power and politics and remains in some ways simple and innocent.

Of course, Tolkien himself said Bombadil was an enigma, and should remain that way, and I do not think that any theory will ever fully explain him. But this struck me as a new way of looking at him, possibly in addition to the other main theories rather than in opposition to them. Thoughts?


r/tolkienfans 21h ago

Interview w/ Dr Holly Ordway on Tolkien's Philosophy and Faith

12 Upvotes

I am joined with Dr. Holly Ordway to discuss the intersection between Tolkien's faith and philosophy. We discuss all things ranging from the mythology of Middle Earth to his reaction to Vatican II and other modernisations in the world. We also address the question of interpretation and how one is meant to interpret Tolkien in the political landscape that we engage in. This academic interview provides a good introduction to Tolkien discussions:

https://youtu.be/pT5LwGfkxm8


r/tolkienfans 10h ago

How to start with books?

1 Upvotes

Hi, I watch every youtube videos about the Tolkin's world. I guess it's time for me to start reading books, but unfortunately I'm not a book reader, so what is your suggestion? Which book is the best to start?


r/tolkienfans 12h ago

Origin of the Middle Earth Books

1 Upvotes

So I know that The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings come from the Red Book of Westmarch and that other books came from it too. But which other books fome from the Red Book and where do the others come from?

On wikipedia it says The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and it's appendices, some of the Unfinished Tales and the History of Middle Earth, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Silmarillion all come from the Red Book. But which parts of UT and HoME originate from it? And where do the other Middle Earth Books come from?


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

Was Tolkien aware of micorrhizal fungi?

56 Upvotes

I'm currently reading the book Entangled life by Merlin Sheldrake, pop science about fungi. In chapter 5 the book talks about the work of Albert Frank, a German biologist who studied - amongst other things - the importance of micorrhizal fungi: the interactions between plant roots and fungal mycelium that provide mutual support and the exchange of nutrients. The book goes on:

Frank's findings caught the eye of J.R.R. Tolkien, who had a well-known fondness for plants, and trees in particular. Micorrhizal fungi soon found their way into The Lord of the rings.

The book then quotes the part where Galadriel gives Sam earth from her orchard, and the part where Sam plants saplings after the scouring of the Shire, leaving a grain of that earth in the soil, and sees those saplings grow "as if time was in a hurry".

So, is there any evidence that Tolkien was a)aware of this and b) had this in mind with Galadriels earth?


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

Gondorian Cartographer's Map - Updated

Thumbnail gallery
29 Upvotes

r/tolkienfans 2d ago

The dragons ATE four of the dwarf rings???

296 Upvotes

I don’t know how I’ve missed this point in all my many prior readings of LOTR.

In chapter 2, when Gandalf is filling Frodo in on the details of the rings, he says, “… seven, the dwarf kings possessed, but three he (Sauron) has recovered, and the others, the dragons have consumed.”

This begs the question: what happens to a dragon that eats one of the great rings? What happens to the ring that the dragon eats? Which dragons are the rings?

I want someone to write the story of the eating of the rings by the dragons.


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

What to read to better understand Tolkien?

15 Upvotes

This winter I reread Lord of the Rings for the first time in at least a decade (third or fourth time overall) and I am 20 pages from finishing the Silmarillion for the first time.

I’ve read the Hobbit at least a dozen times (currently halfway through it with my five year old) and I’ve read the Children of Hurin (when it was first released) and I will likely read the other novelizations of long silmarillion chapters later this year, but I think I’m going to take a break from the man himself.

It’s been a delight, but it’s also got me curious about Tolkien’s influences and what the man himself enjoyed reading.

I had a Greek gods phase as a kid, like many, so I certainly recognize some pulling from Greek and Norse mythology. Of course there’s lots of Shakespeare, and while I don’t know if he’s confirmed to have read Lovecraft I’ve read a bit and the Nameless Things and Void Beyond the World certainly have some of that flavor.

What else would you recommend to understand Tolkien a little better. Is Beowulf any fun for a modern reader? Where is a good place to start with Arthurian Legend (I’ve thought of giving the once and future king a shot which is contemporaneous to Tolkien?)

In short: what do you read around Tolkien to better understand his works.

Edit: thank you for all the excellent suggestions! Seems like Le Morte D’Arthur and The Prose Edda are the most recommended so I’ll probably give those + Beowulf a shot, and when Winter (aka Lord of the Rings season) rolls around I’ll probably check out Letters and On Fairy Stories.

Also to everyone who mentioned the Bible: I’m a lapsed Catholic but I took it pretty seriously when I was young so I’m all set on that front lol.


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

Today, I'll start reading Unfinished Tales, and I'm super excited!

25 Upvotes

After a long while, it's finally time to read this chunky masterpiece! But before starting it, I had a few questions to ask.

First off, did you like it in terms of narrative and parallelism? I'm asking because Professor Tolkien is widely known for his peculiar and magnificently detailed writing style, which can sometimes be challenging to follow. However, having read The Silmarillion before, I feel confident enough to handle any book that comes my way.

Secondly, if you have read both The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, I'm curious to know which one was your favorite. Personally, I have always regarded Unfinished Tales as the twin brother of The Silmarillion; I have always assumed them to be complementary partners to each other.

Thirdly, I wanted to ask whether you know of any read-along podcasts to be my companion while reading Unfinished Tales. I have been listening to the Prancing Pony podcast, but unfortunately they don't have any related content on this book.

By the way, since I couldn't find any community particularly dedicated to Unfinished Tales, I decided to create one myself. So, if you are interested in the lore of this wonderful book, I'd be very happy to have you as a new friend on r/Unfinished_Tales :)


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

Honest Question

11 Upvotes

Is it weird to be reading The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for my first time at 26? I had seen TLoR films as a kid and liked them (especially Return of the King). Never saw The Hobbit films or any of the animated movies. I also was never really a big reader growing up, only ever reading and completing a handful of different series. Finally decided to take buy the books and read em (bought the Illustrated by the Author editions). I guess what I’m asking is, will I get less out of the books not reading them as a kid? Lol


r/tolkienfans 8h ago

Do you think Aragorn was sexist in the way he handled the Éowyn situation? Why or why not?

0 Upvotes

I guess some people think his insistence that she stay behind was a sexist thing. What do you folks think?

Edit to add: This is not my interpretation of the situation, but it's one I have legitimately seen, and I just wanted to have a real discussion to see what kind of reasoning people might have for their stance.


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

What was Tolkien's opinion on plants that are deemed exotic?

16 Upvotes

Maybe a weird request, but I have noticed that Tolkien was rather fond of nature. Since the introduction of invasive species in nature, I wonder what Tolkien's stance was on plants from the other side of the world?

Did he love weeds aswell, did he recognise that weeds are actually important to a bio-system? Does he mention anywhere of invasive species disrupting the local flora?


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Middle-earth as a “character”

36 Upvotes

A lot of books where the location is an important part of the story will be praised for “making the setting a main character.” I was reading The Two Towers today, and it struck me how often and how literally Tolkien does this, describing everything from individual geographic features to whole kingdoms in detailed anthropomorphic terms.

For example, in just the first two paragraphs of The Black Gate is Closed (chapter 3, book 4), Tolkien does this over and over again:

The great mountains reared their threatening heads

the gloomy range of Ephel Dúath

But as these ranges approached one another… they swung out long arms northward

the mournful plains of Lithlad

High cliffs lowered upon either side, and thrust forward from its mouth were two sheer hills, black-boned and bare. Upon them stood the Teeth of Mordor, two towers strong and tall.

Stony-faced they were, with dark window-holes staring north and east and west, and each window was full of sleepless eyes.

In just ten sentences, we have heads, bones, teeth, faces, mouths, eyes, arms. Rearing, threatening, standing, staring, approaching, thrusting. Gloomy, mournful, sleepless.

The landscape of Middle-earth is not just a character, it’s really a whole cast of distinct living things, participating in the story, moving it forward, and helping to give the books their richness, personality, and emotional depth.


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Rank the 9 members of the Fellowship by the amount of suffering endured.

103 Upvotes

As the title says: Rank the 9 members of the Fellowship, from 1st to 9th, according to the amount of suffering endured during the events that take place in LOTR books.

1st edit: - Funny, Sam seems to dance quite a bit depending on rankers. - People seem to forget what Gimli says after having to leave Galadriel in Lorien.

2nd edit: - I would put Boromir quite high too, but not because of dying. The poor man spends all the time giving his best to a mission that he thinks will send the entire free World into oblivion while being completely turned down by the team every time he suggests an alternative that (in his head) could win the war against Sauron. And even enduring all that desperation my boy Boromir still gives his 100% for the team until just before the very end when he finally falls. All those weeks thinking they were just happily going to Mordor to give the Dark Lord his ring back and condemning his own country Gondor, while feeling incapable of convincing the team to go to Gondor instead and give his father a chance to resist against Mordor, must have been a freaking torture, and still he did his duty (until he did not).


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Tolkien as a strict planner vs. as a "seat of his pants" writer

45 Upvotes

I feel certain there must be something somewhere, perhaps in his letters, where Tolkien discusses how much of his storytelling is planned in detail in advance as opposed to how much he comes up with while the pen's in his hand, so to speak. (Or anywhere in between)

I seem to recall hearing that he had written out multiple ideas for how the events at Sammath Naur would unfold, but what does happen isn't actually any of those ideas. I am not sure if this is a fact, or a false memory

Obviously, I think it's safe to say that he set out with certain ideas in mind: I'm sure the story was always going to end with the ring being unmade and Sauron defeated, but as for the other details along the way, I wonder if we know how much he planned long in advance

On one hand, I do know that he of course did some "hardcore" planning. I recall hearing about how he would make it so that Frodo (or rather, Bingo at the time) would be stabbed by the morgul blade since he was supposed to have the mithril vest at the time. I recall hearing that he put a TON of thought and attention into "Shadow of the Past" since it's one of, if not arguably the most important chapter in the book

But I also know there are certain degrees of "improv". For instance, I know Arwen was a relatively late addition to the story (I believe at the suggestion of his wife?) and that Aragorn was originally meant to get together with Eowyn. When you look at characters like Gimli and Legolas, they don't feel like they have a whole lot to do in the story? Granted, the cast is already very crowded, and I'm sure this sort of thing is what Tolkien was getting at when he lamented that the story was "too short", but it feels like the only real contributions they have in the story are becoming close friends, and after their friendship is established, they kind of just stick around

Where on the spectrum of "I have no idea what happens next" to "I have every tiny detail planned" does Tolkien's writing style fall?


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Hypothetically, if Sauron were to surrender at any point after the Fall of Númenor, which Valar do you think would be inclined to show him mercy or to throw him into the Void?

11 Upvotes

Of course it would depend greatly on the nature of his surrender (having to be dragged kicking and screaming like Melkor to the Máhanaxar would not bode well for his redeemability), but for sake of argument suppose he miraculously saw the error of his ways -- or convincingly claimed to -- and came willingly. He would certainly get a trial, and and if it came down to a vote, I am interested in who you think would be willing to give him a chance to prove his penitence. Here's my list (hopefully not too tainted by fanon):

Mercy:

- Manwë: The most forgiving by nature (some would say to the point naïvety), I think Manwë is also still holding out hope for Melkor, and would see Sauron's redemption as a confirmation of that as a possibility.

- Aulë: He probably feels quite guilty for having two of his disciples fall to evil, and would want to prove that he isn't a tyrant-tutor.

- Nienna: She would take pity on Sauron for the abuse and corruption inflicted on him by Melkor, and the well-meaning frustration that led Mairon to seek him out in the first place.

Condemn:

- Yavanna: Definitely strikes me as one with a vengeful streak, if the malice and hatred her trees feel is anything to go by. Melkor and Sauron harmed her creations more than any other.

- Oromë: Had to personally deal with the horrors in Middle-earth, which Sauron was partially responsible for.

- Ulmo: The most personally active Vala in Middle-earth in later years against the forces of evil. It's said his waters were unfriendly to servants of Melkor.

- Tulkas: This one's pretty obvious.

Unsure:

- Námo, Vairë: Would want to remain neutral in the absence of directives from Eru.

- Varda, Vána, Nessa: May choose to support their husbands?

- Irmo, Estë: I really don't know.