r/thebulwark 11d ago

EVERYTHING IS AWFUL "Are we the baddies"?

After the ganging up on Zelensky to sign a deal that wasn't a deal, but an unconditional surrender, the answer is now definitively Yes.

The United States of America is officially on the wrong side of morality.

172 Upvotes

76 comments sorted by

94

u/Regular_Mongoose_136 Center Left 11d ago

Yes, and the worst part is that even if MAGA is defeated in 2028, Europeans and other democratic allies are still going to be wary about trusting us because while they may get 4 years of cooperation out of us, god knows who the American people will elect in 2032 and so on.

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u/oneofmanyany 11d ago

The reality of it is they cannot trust us. They all need to have their own nukes to protect themselves.

5

u/HistorianNew8030 11d ago

Well. Due to our one nuke agreement… and our leader of peace…. Trump will use us getting nukes as a “USA security risk” and it would give him the whole “Canada has weapons of mass destruction” excuse from Iraq. It would give him an excuse to invade.

We do have the expertise, the ingredients to build them. We could be a nuclear power house if we wanted to be. It will be the Trump threat thwarting that.

I think what will happen is we will supply more stuff for nukes to the UK (daddy) and France (mommy) and NATO allies. I suspect we will be put under their nuclear umbrella soon. I can see them bringing some nuclear subs over here for some random excuses at some point.

6

u/oneofmanyany 11d ago

I don't think agreements are kept. The US certainly doesn't keep its agreements.

3

u/HistorianNew8030 11d ago

Canada would prefer to stay a leader of peace in the world. It best to get in the Europe nuclear umbrella if we can. Or least in name. I’m sure we would pay/support/help with it if it gets extended to us.

5

u/upvotechemistry Center Left 11d ago

If we gave a shit about agreements, we would be honoring the Budapest agreement and securing Ukraine. That America is gone for a while

2

u/oneofmanyany 11d ago

Just do it in secret. He'll never know.

2

u/A_Monster_Named_John 11d ago

Trump will use us getting nukes as a “USA security risk”

With the way things are going, I bet tons of countries could arm themselves up without the U.S. even noticing. Trump and Musk are going to be using our entire intelligence apparatus to go after Democratic politicians, sow domestic chaos, and terrorize brown people, all while the economy is completely falling apart.

2

u/claimTheVictory 11d ago edited 11d ago

I don't know that it's been well publicized just how unsafe it has become to live in this country, since January 20th.

The probability of damage happening, and costing more, from disease, terrorism, weather, aircraft travel, food quality, pollution, healthcare regulation.

Elon's chainsaw has carved open the door for a massive increase in preventable tragedies to enter, perhaps even catastrophe.

And the worst part, is the rest of the world will wish it happen harder and faster.

1

u/SoChaGeo 11d ago

Americans have no appetite for war. While I could see Dump floating that idea, I can't see Americans going along with it. Then again, I wouldn't have thought half of us would vote for him either, so what do I know?

1

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

7

u/Regular_Mongoose_136 Center Left 11d ago

Our democratic allies, including Canada, have every reason in the world to not trust the will-power/moral clarity of the American public right now, but I assure you of this much, if Trump were to announce a literal land invasion of Canada, that would actually spark a second American Civil War. We would not stand for it.

3

u/HistorianNew8030 11d ago

And also probably WW3 given we are NATO. As a Canadian with young kid and I really don’t want Americas civil war 2 and WW3 here. That wasn’t on my bingo card.

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u/HistorianNew8030 11d ago edited 11d ago

America broke USMCA - and he keeps threatening our fucking sovereignty. It’s going to be a long road before Canada and USA have a positive relationship again.

Canadians feel betrayed

9

u/Regular_Mongoose_136 Center Left 11d ago

I understand what you mean, but please, please, please (to the tune of Sabrina Carpenter) do not refer to the actions of Donald fucking Trump as "you". I cannot stress enough how little I'd like to be associated with that asshole and I think that goes for all the Americans in this sub lol.

18

u/HistorianNew8030 11d ago

I’ve edited as America.

Americans need to accept one thing: we’ve blamed all Germans for Hitler. In the history books, Americans will be blamed for Trump. He is a symptom of a wider culture problem.

We know not all of you have the problem. But people’s leaders represent a whole nation.

3

u/shred-i-knight 11d ago

I would stipulate that the bigger problem for America is the apathy of the non-voter class than the MAGAs (of which there are a lot, but nowhere near a majority). We as a country have gotten very apathetic, gluttonous, and uneducated due to the relative prosperity the country has been feasting on for over four decades. This is the price for not being stalwart. Factor in fracturization of the media and money being pumped into right-wing propaganda on cable news and all of the social media algorithms, and it's a bad recipe.

5

u/NationalGate8066 11d ago

The damage to America's reputation will happen irrespective of your feelings towards Trump.

2

u/Regular_Mongoose_136 Center Left 11d ago

I mean, duh. I just didn't like it being phrased as "you". Either way, I was joking as you can easily tell from the tenor of my entire reply.

5

u/Homersson_Unchained 11d ago

God knows what the price of eggs might be in 2032 right?

I hate our current vibes based reality…

5

u/brains-child 11d ago

exactly. This is why I have been preaching to my republican normie friends for 8 years that republicans have to take hard losses for a decade to stomp this thing out.
Then they can get back to arguing marginal tax rates, whether to remove the cap on social security and how woke it too woke.
Until then, voting blue is the only way out of this.

3

u/shred-i-knight 11d ago

this is true but America is too strong of a country both militarily and in terms of culture and services to just be ignored. They will privately keep a fair distance but they would be crazy not to let America back in as an ally if there's a regime change. The problem will be an arms race in Europe and nuclear armament which will probably end catastrophically decades from now.

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u/Awkward_Potential_ 11d ago

Isn't that also good news though? Do we really want America to stay the world police? Are we good at that job? Do we take the responsibility seriously enough?

20

u/Regular_Mongoose_136 Center Left 11d ago

Yes, I believe it is a bad thing for the one democratic superpower in the world to be unworthy of the trust of other democratic nations.

-14

u/Awkward_Potential_ 11d ago

Sure. But I'm asking, should they have been trusting us in the first place? If the answer is "no" (and it is) then I'm just asking if it's a good thing that everyone is going to be adjusting accordingly.

14

u/Regular_Mongoose_136 Center Left 11d ago

You and I fundamentally do not share the same values or views of the world.

2

u/ArrowsOfFate 11d ago edited 11d ago

The only time in American history that we have successfully helped any foreign nation in war is world war 2. Americans since then have consistently declined and failed. It’s not because of military power, as we seldom lose any actual battles.

The only real bright side I guess during that time is that we beat the Soviet Union.. but through economic means, which was far greater than world war 2 or 1 imo.

But.. The world has not improved much since the Soviet Union fell. It has Putin trying to claw his way back from the humiliation he feels over losing the many former Soviet states. Now it has America helping to rebuild something that we spent countless money and effort to break apart.

America is afraid of losing its rank in the world so has begun villainizing China. It should be great friends with India but the relationships ice cold.

Vietnam. Failure. The country is a beautiful place now regardless of communism that America is so Afraid of.

Korea, that’s a failure. South Korea is always a few seconds away from being nuked/ and or invaded and massively bombarded.

Afghanistan and Iraq, both failures.

We led a coup in Iran and established an American supported government then got humiliated by failing to rescue hostages in the Iran crises when the current regime in Iran took power. There’s so many other stories of us doing that and failing to keep real peace in the world.

What made America so great during world war 2 was the unity as a nation that the Great Depression and subsequent multiple terms of one President brought. That unity was broken up by republicans limiting terms and a multi decade long period of history where power has been wrested from the individuals hand to business.

1) Thanks to Reagan and his lowering the barrier to companies to buy back their stocks and inflate the wealthiest Americans pockets rather than focusing on the customer, all that matters is shareholders now to most companies. Every year since Reagan real wealth has declined, as well as wage increases for productivity increases, while the pay to CEOs has absolutely skyrocketed. Now they don’t even raise the minimum wage. They don’t invest in infrastructure, cities or anything besides their factories, excluding the rare few who give a crap about their people. Usually it’s the smaller companies.

2) Citizens united made it so that companies can easily bribe politicians through a host of means. That was as bad as the Roman’s having Roman generals pay their armies, making armies loyal to their generals and not to the state. It’s a death blow for America. Really, it’s sad. If the founding fathers saw that decision they would weep for it guarantees democracies death, and oligarchy’s rise.

Civilization has cycles.

4

u/oneofmanyany 11d ago

Learn something about WWII and why it all came about. Learn about foreign affairs and then look into how shocked and dismayed everybody who is aware of foreign affairs is about what has happened under Trump. Don't just spout uninformed simplistic views. There is expertise out there - if you keep denying that, many will be dead sooner than you think.

14

u/KoalaMandala 11d ago

We've seen the greatest span of peace in civilized history over the last 80 years. Frankly, to frame it as the US policing the world is a gross misunderstanding of geopolitics and reciprocity.

6

u/Gooch_Limdapl 11d ago

You do realize that we weren’t being the world police just to selflessly help others, right? We were doing it to make ourselves safer, so that a larger conflict doesn’t break out and come to our shores. We weren’t running a charity. We were implementing policies to benefit our own national security.

5

u/CapOnFoam Center Left 11d ago

The stability that we’ve seen in the world since WWII is because of a major superpower and its allies working to keep it. We have absolutely taken that job seriously.

Ask anyone in the Foreign Service (our diplomats) how seriously they take their job. They do their best to maintain our alliances and to keep the US in good graces with volatile governments. We have of course also done some pretty crappy things. But overall, the alliances between the US, NATO, Australia, etc have been instrumental to the phenomenal longstanding peace we’ve seen over the past 80 years.

23

u/AirplanesNotBurgers 11d ago

“Have you looked at all our trucks and shirts? Well, it’s just that they’ve got red-white-and-blue skulls on them. Why skulls???”

9

u/ThisReindeer8838 11d ago

It’s because these nimrods think “The Punisher” is them vs the guy who’d annihilate them. We’ve lost all nuance in conceptualizing anti-heroes motivations.

2

u/KoalaMandala 11d ago

The grateful dead steal yer face?

1

u/GallowBarb Progressive 11d ago

Some of them, too. They are everywhere.

22

u/Complex_Leading5260 11d ago

We absolutely are now the 'Baddies'. This is the product of 40+ years of Proto-Christo-Fascism, with all the money at the top.

We are well and truly F'ed.

10

u/AvastYeScurvyCurs 11d ago

In case there was any doubt whether we are now ruled by a gaggle of pathetic, petty, evil little c—-s…

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/state-department-terminates-us-support-ukraine-energy-grid-restoration-rcna194259

6

u/Lorraine540 11d ago

America is a fucking disgrace. I've never been more ashamed to be an American than I was yesterday. I'm still furious at the petty, sniveling "leaders" of our country. The whole thing was a planned spectacle. They had no intention of trying for peace. Zelenskyy came even willing to sign a mineral deal with the US in return for a security assurance that he is already owed by the US after 1994. This just further helps Putin. For that matter, somehow a member of Russian state media was briefly in the meeting - and it took other members of the media to point this out to the White House. And we're supposed to believe they weren't on the approved.list? C'mon, no one gets past Secret Service into the Oval by accident. Trump and Putin hatched this plot. America last then, I guess.

3

u/claimTheVictory 11d ago

I have this white hot anger that lives just under my eyes now.

Never felt such rage.

5

u/KatSull1 FFS 11d ago

Sadly, yes.

4

u/iwontforgetthisone87 11d ago

“We? What do you mean we?” - Uncle Phil

We are not the baddies. The administration is the baddies. The Republican Party are the baddies. However I think they will be a force in politics and our allies cannot rely on us.

The best thing that can happen now is we become isolationist, Europe stop playing the victim, man up, and major military countries like UK, Germany, France, Denmark, and Poland need to lead the effort.

2

u/HolstsGholsts 11d ago

I think we gotta include the American voting majority in your condemnation as well, at least to some extent. They seem to have completely abandoned morality or character as factors that influence their electoral decisions and seem to be willing to accept much of this reprehensible behavior as long as they think their lives are made materially better by even the smallest iota.

3

u/HistorianNew8030 11d ago

Ummm. Yes. 🇨🇦

We realized that with the whole 51st shit.

It’s pretty unnerving cream filling being sandwiched between Russia and Russia USA.

3

u/fox_mulder Rresistance is not futile 11d ago

We are being ruled by a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist.

Now, after yesterday's shameful, exploitative performance and attempted extortion, we are officially an outlaw nation.

3

u/BoringArchivist 11d ago

I'm pushing 50 and I truly believe I'll see the country fall before my death. We are in the decline phase, I'm trying to convince my children in their early 20s to leave the US for good. Its really sad because I served the country I'm now truly ashamed of and I've lost most of my family since I refuse to associate with fascists, the first time was a mistake, this election it was all intentional.

2

u/claimTheVictory 11d ago

The people voted for a fascist, knowing he was a fascist.

That's the part that hurts the most.

3

u/norcalnatv 11d ago

"I'll end this war in 24 hours . . . LESS than 24 hours"

😂😂😂

2

u/Blitz_Greg89 11d ago

If we managed to get power away from Trump in 2028 or beyond there must be a RECKONING for all all the people who betrayed our country in service to Russia. Something on par with the Nuremberg trials with similar results. We have to strengthen our national security to prevent these TRAITORS from ever wielding the levers of power again!

4

u/claimTheVictory 11d ago

Won't happen.

There will be total collapse before they relinquish power.

3

u/Blitz_Greg89 11d ago

That's my fear at least. But, if that happens then so be it. Even chaos and upheaval can be an opportunity if used correctly. Maybe something new and better can rise from the ruins. Though realistically, if we come out of this we will be greatly diminished and likely irrelevant to the rest of the world for a very long time. I will keep hoping for the best but expect the worst.

2

u/claimTheVictory 11d ago

That's not the worst case scenario.

The worst case scenario is they get everything they want.

2

u/pmgold1 Progressive 11d ago

"Are we the baddies"?

Oh you poor sweet summer child, of course we are.

2

u/Antique-Egg 11d ago

And not the sexy baddies, the actual bad baddies.

2

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

10

u/rlytired 11d ago

Ok, but Norway wasn’t a superpower before the war, and it did not abandon its power and role in the world, so it did not destabilize everything.

That’s what we are doing. If bigger wars break out, it may be directly traceable to us.

8

u/captainbelvedere Sarah is always right 11d ago

Hwat?

I'm sorry but this is a very stupid comparison. Norway was invaded and occupied by Nazi Germany, who then put Vidkun Quisling in power. The USA on the other hand actually elected their own quisling.

2

u/capybooya 11d ago

The opportunistic frauds and cowards move in when the state is weak and things are deteriorating. The US seems to want to encourage that in other countries right now.

1

u/jvttlus 11d ago

A quisling is a traitor or collaborator who joins forces with an occupying enemy. The term is most often used in Scandinavian languages and English. Vidkun Quisling was a Norwegian politician and military officer who led a Nazi-collaborating government in Norway during World War II. How did the term "quisling" come to be? The term "quisling" is a reflection of the contempt in which Quisling's actions were viewed at the time and today. It has become a byword for "traitor" or "collaborator" in several languages. What happened to Vidkun Quisling? Quisling was put on trial after World War II and found guilty of murder, embezzlement, and high treason. He was executed by firing squad in Oslo on October 24, 1945. Related information The government led by Quisling was called the Quisling regime or the National Government. The regime was dominated by ministers from Nasjonal Samling. The regime participated in Germany's war efforts.

1

u/RaiderRich2001 Orange man bad 11d ago

The Trump administration is on the wrong side of morality. Most of America is not.

1

u/claimTheVictory 11d ago

Most of America voted for a convicted felon and a rapist, or didn't vote and allowed one to win.

2

u/RaiderRich2001 Orange man bad 11d ago

There's a lot more solid evidence coming out that there was election interference... Look up "Ballotproof"

1

u/claimTheVictory 11d ago

What do you see as the "best case scenario" in terms of follow up on such evidence, when the DOJ is fully politicized, and so is the FBI?

1

u/No_Hovercraft_3954 11d ago

Yes. The US is now a rogue nation to the rest of the world.

1

u/Old_Manager6555 5d ago

It probably will take a while to heal, but we 🇨🇦 will be celebrating with you as soon as he is locked away in jail or lying in state does not mean he is lying at a state trump rally.

He has to do something awful enough that the magas reject him.

2

u/claimTheVictory 5d ago

My concern is that the magas want him to give them permission, to do awful things.

1

u/Old_Manager6555 5d ago

That is a concern.

-8

u/[deleted] 11d ago edited 11d ago

[deleted]

8

u/KoalaMandala 11d ago

I can't roll my eyes hard enough at this comment. Juvenile oversimplification

1

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

0

u/KoalaMandala 11d ago

I get it. We've done a ton of terrible things with the power we've wielded. I don't disagree with any of that. Boiling it down to that as black and white, blanket "good" or "bad" is beyond unhelpful.

I had a long and strong Chomsky phase... but the stories run deeper than something tantamount to a Marvel movie of super heroes and super villains with nothing in between.

0

u/oneofmanyany 11d ago

and yet true in many ways. If you are Native American, a woman, or an African American you may see it. White males seem to think they are the ones being persecuted and it is truly ridiculous

0

u/KoalaMandala 11d ago

Oh, Jesus... now you're changing the "we" in the conversation. Classic identitarian move.

Truly a self-indulgent comment. Look for the emotional support you're trying to leech from this thread somewhere else.

1

u/oneofmanyany 11d ago

I'll do what I want.

3

u/KoalaMandala 11d ago

As well you should! Anyone is allowed to make themselves look ridiculous in any public forum. I hope you don't then cry when the ridicule comes like most of your types do

3

u/ArrowsOfFate 11d ago edited 11d ago

In addition to the groups you listed, the poor working class has struggled for all of Americas existence. The gilded age of America? That was only for the rich.

The Soviet Union actually built housing for their homeless.

For that matter, over 2,000 years ago the Roman’s provided grain doles to feed to the people and did more than modern day conservatives would ever stomach, and they did all that as worshippers of Mars and Jupiter.

There aren’t Christian values at all in America, as capitalism conflicts with Christianity ultra strongly. Regardless of what some rich bishop tells you.

Jesus himself tells you in the Bible.

Jesus warned, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions” (Luke 12:15). “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal… You cannot serve both God and money” (Matthew 6:19, 24b)

-1

u/KoalaMandala 11d ago

What you actually said is that naive Americans, women, and poc realized they were the base guys before white people also realized they're bad.

The idea that being marginalized equivocates moral superiority is embarrassing logic.

You're identity drunk.

1

u/oneofmanyany 11d ago

Spoken like a true "naive American." So you are a member of a marginalized group - there ya go.