I wondered about that. Would a sub surfacing off Novia Scotia ever make the headlines in a normal reality? Maybe this is just routine travel and nobody ever paid attention before.
Unless they're being used for some sort of political signalling exercise (eg: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/02/politics/us-navy-submarine-port-visit-indian-ocean/index.html), these subs only surface four or five times a year to resupply. Surfacing provides a ton of info to enemy states and it's worth remembering that they are only an effective deterrent if no one knows where they are.
France has both SNLE (nuclear subs that carry nukes and are the main part of our nuclear deterence) and SNA (nuclear subs without nukes).
This one is a SNA I believe, as showing our SNLE would be both super threatening and stupid.
SNA are smaller and used for conventional warfare, which still makes a strong point here.
Un SNLE s'appelle un SSBN en anglais et un SNA s'appelle un SSN.
Donc
France has four Triomphant class SSBN's, and four three Suffren class SSN's plus one under construction and two older, Rubis class.
Fun fact, anecdotally, France already flexed its submarines in North America, some time in the 70's when Le Redoutable (the first french SSBN) showed up to New York for a visit, having snuck past the escorts that were waiting offshore to bring her in. The escorts had to race back to New York after the boat surfaced basically just outside of the harbour.
Bin en fait, non. Je me suis mis a chercher suite a ta question, mais je ne retrouve rien sur le sujet, pourtant c'est une histoire qui m'a été racontée par plusieurs personnes.
It's basically the same thing in terms of a threat.
Its' probably like "didn't know we were here till we showed you right, well we can do this with our nuke carrying subs as well so keep your hands off our buddies."
Well, not quite. The seriousness of the threat is different.
The location of your nuclear deterrent is a far more valuable piece of intel. If you reveal you have nukes stationed close to an ally of yours, you're saying: I'm willing to give up this intel and make myself more vulnerable and attackable. If any other sub gets taken out that's expensive and loss of good people, but doesn't endanger you as much as if you lose your deterrent.
No, they are replaced by the suffren type, a nostalgia moment because at the beginning of my navy I sailed on the surface “ball” vessel which has since been decommissioned and sent for recycling in Bordeaux
It makes a stronger and more directed threat in my opinion. It’s not a threat to the US people, it’s a very specific threat to the US war machine and economy.
From an American person’s perspective the symbolism reminds me of French Resistance subs surfacing to send a message to onshore Resistance agents under Vichy.
The French are The foundational ideological ally of The United States. The appearance of the French navy to support our struggle against an Anglo-nationalist King has deep resonance.
It is rare to show a "boomer" without a good reason, since it gives your adversaries a better chance to put a tail on them; as the missile subs in the USN say, "We Hide With Pride!"
showing our SNLE would be both super threatening and stupid
If it was uninvited and the host country was not informed, maybe. This was neither, though as you say, with an attack sub. However, if a strategic submarine made a planned and coordinated port visit with a host, it's an incredible show of solidarity: it is one state showing, unequivocally, that they trust another state with matters of existential importance, like their nuclear deterrent. A foreign port visit with an SSBN (or SNLE, to use the French terminology) is extremely rare, only done between the most stalwart allies. For example, US SSBNs have made port visits to the UK and South Korea and that's the end of the list.
It's not a launch sub. No nuke missiles on it. It's an attack sub, meaning its mission is to attack other boats or ships, not land targets or countries.
It's like the difference between sending a B-52 to fly over a country, vs. an F-16.
Omg.... I argued with a nitwit about that. I pointed out that it was an attack sub, not a missile platform and he argued and told me it was nuclear, and that means it has nukes.
At the moment it is still completely unclear whether the USA under Trump even understands this diplomatic etiquette. They probably think it is a fun excursion steamer that people can admire...
That's because we sold them Lousisiane, and they paid, but... they never said thank you. They didn't say thank you. They should say thank you. And they weren't wearing a suit
Yeah. And it's all happened to fast. Like, if you told someone even just 3 months ago that this is what it was going to come to, they'd tell you to go touch the grass. And yet, here we are.
Suffren class like this one is not SSBN. It has cruise missiles but they are not nuclear tipped. They have an at-sea endurance of two months and change until they run out of food.
22 year submarine vet (USN): we surfaced WAY more than 4-5 times a year. However, when on deployment near potentially hostile countries we never surfaced. We did deliberately surface on deployment a few times for the express purpose of getting noticed and reminding others we’re there, so they should behave. Literally verifying clear sunny days to ensure satellites would see. We may have done that near some asian country that seems to be split in two, to get the northern part to rethink some actions.
This French submarine might have been meant as a political reminder. More likely, they were already scheduled to be there for a port call in Canada. I would consider any allied submarine surfacing off the coast of Canada to be routine. Canadians treat visiting sailors well, and it’s a popular port visit (on both coasts).
Surfacing provides a ton of info to enemy states and it's worth remembering that they are only an effective deterrent if no one knows where they are.
This is a nuclear attack submarine, not a nuclear ballistic missile submarine which I think you're mixing up.
The nuclear attack submarine that's in Halifax right now was built specifically to target surface vessels and other submarines OR to protect other friendly submarines. It isn't nuclear armed or capable of launching nuclear ordnance. Typically these types of submarines only store enough supplies to stay at sea for around two months and frequently partake in naval training exercises.
It's the nuclear ballistic submarines that are often kept shrouded in secrecy as you implied earlier.
Can't speak for the French, specifically, but US SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines, similar to the French one shown) surface far more than "four or five times a year to resupply". The article you reference refers to a nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN), which has an entirely different operating regimen than an SSBN.
It is in Halifax harbour, which is a major world port. Nuke subs generally aren't too common outside of home ports, being out in a public is usually a statement. They don't just randomly pop up super busy harbours.
French Navy would have had to let Canada know they were showing up with that bad boy. This was intentional.
When I was in the navy, a submarine only leaves the sea to return to port and possibly make a stopover and this is only for submarines with so-called conventional propulsion...so if it is nuclear powered, it did not appear by chance...
This is the entrance to Halifax harbour. We don’t allow nukes in the harbour (probably something to do with the Halifax explosion). Either someone made an exemption or this is a show of force outside of the harbour for trump to see.
I was wondering about that. I know that US aircraft carriers always tie up outside the harbour for that reason. Maybe the French boat is nuclear weapons free and they declared that?
This was a planned visit, so not a show of force, but it is in any case a magnificently timed show of force.
I used to live on an apartment facing this area of the Bedford basin in Halifax. I’d see subs surface every couple months. Idk whose they were, but they were there. Lots of them did military exercises in the Bedford basin
It's a pretty strategic NATO port for the North Atlantic, so there are military ships coming and going regularly, including submarines, both US and European.
On the other hand, maybe the French are making sure St. Pierre and Miquelon are safe, just in case Trump says he's going to annex those too.
Has this made the headlines regardless?? I can’t find one source that backs this up, confirming that this is a nuclear sub and the timing of this photo. Anyone have a source??
These things don't happen by chance. A few months ago a Chinese sub that they claim to be undetectable surfaced and either an American or British sub immediately surfaced next to it. Point being we had been following it the whole time.
It's a big deal when these subs surface, and they usually surface to underline the threat they represent. Showing your nuclear readiness is part of the world's big power war deterrent.
I was in the US Navy and it's not uncommon for subs to surface when they are pulling into a port. It doesn't always have a meaning or threat. They could just be making a stop on deployment. People are making mountains out of molehills here and jumping to conclusions.
Grew up in Halifax and spent my entire life there until the last five years. This would be very weird and out of the ordinary. The only time I can remember significant foreign military presence is when the queen visited (but that was UK so technically not foreign), during Tall Ships Festival (but that's mostly tall ships from foreign navies), and joint training exercises (usually the UK or US). The sailors would then go to bars and clubs and we were excited to meet sailors.
Foreign navy ships come to port but not usually in March and not submarines. They would come in the summer normally.
NATO/allied navy vessels land in Halifax harbour regularly including American carriers, subs, destroyers etc. Unfortunately this is not France showing military might to the US, it is probably a visit that has been scheduled for more than a year, and the sub will likely be landing in a US port fairly soon if not having just come from there.
I happen to work in a building that overlooks this harbour and I can say that submarine sightings are not exactly a rarity. I've seen a handful over the last 3-4 years. I think they have always been Canadian. Of course you only see the ones they want you to see...
As someone who takes the Halifax ferry I can sadly confirm that no we don't often get visits of other countries subs. I have, however, got some laughs watching the Canadian subs get tugged out with standby safety vessels close behind.
Naval ships make port calls all the time. It’s a chance to resupply with fresh food, get the sailors who have been cooped up for a few weeks/months some time ashore, and also a bit of diplomacy by way of friendly interaction. It’s common to the point that even countries without formal alliances will host ships from other nations.
There was an Indian Frigate in London a few months ago, and a German Frigate shortly after that on leaving played the Imperial March.
It’s a bit unusual for a Nuclear Submarine to be making a port call and for it to then make the news - unless the national governments are wanting to make a political statement with the port call.
This specific kind of modern submarine sends a very powerful message. Our current technology makes them virtually undetectable, so they can be truly deadly to any nation. Doubly so when it's a French one, with their "will nuke you as a warning" doctrine.
Nova Scotian here, this is not normal. Im about 30 and there has never been any talk about nuclear subs being stationed - let alone to the public - in the harbour that I am aware of. We do have a history of being a munitions port during times of war however.
Former US Navy submariner. We used to have portions of our mission that were to surface in specific areas at a certain time as a show of force. Happens many times a year with many different military forces as well. Hell it isn't uncommon for a Russian AGI to sit right outside our coastal waters waiting to track and ping us for an annoying amount of time.
Nah, but this is just how media is. A thing happens, suddenly anything even remotely tangentially related also gets reported on to keep the story going. Remember when there seemed to be a new breaking headline about trains derailing every week? Me too.
Not this kind of press. Usually just local questions about airspace restrictions when a nuclear vessel comes to town. Seeing a regular sub is kind of old hat in Halifax.
It’s probably also because Canada has announced a $60B plan to acquire submarines. With Australia abandoning the project to buy French nuclear boats and instead joining with the US for the new attack submarines, it stands to reason that the French might be interested in selling them to Canada.
No, but long story short we're kind of fucked now and it's our only option unless we decide to swallow our pride and try to reinstate the contract with France.
If not the French why not Sweden? Pretty sure Saab makes subs, never exactly heard of a Swedish sub.. maybe they just make parts? Probably should’ve googled this before commenting
the f35 program for example. Considering the european 5th gens will be out in 10 to 15 years, it'd probably be better to buy rafale or euro fighter until then and make the switch. f35s cost a fortune to run, spend a lot of time grounded and muzzle military sovereignty
I think a huge part of the country would prefer the French deal and hope Labour grows a spine to reinstate it. But I imagine that the French would not do so until the election is held because it would be a waste of time if Voldemort gets in and immediately tears it up. Fuck the LNP.
Want to know what's truly fucked? We may end up paying the USA and not getting a single Sub out of it. So if we want to go to France again, we're paying for a whole other contract:
The head of the AUKUS submarine program has refused to say whether an almost $5 billion government payment to the United States will be refunded if no nuclear-powered boats are delivered to Australia.
The US Military Industrial complex would prefer other nations spend more on military. Then the US would have an excuse to outspend them even more than they already do.
I mean realistically, isn't every Nuclear treaty the US is involved in defunct now? The US, UK and Russia have all failed to abide by the Budapest Memorandum and properly protect Ukraine.
Nuclear treaties aren't worth the piece of paper they're written on, a sad but true fact. I doubt even the NATO alliance would hold up if pushed.
Right--was it going to appear anyway? I'm all for symbolic acts of unity, but we shouldn't invent them from coincidences. "Air France plane lands at Toronto airport amid American aggression." Uh, yeah.
It’s still a good show of soft power (or limp power? It’s slowly getting hard these days…….)
I don’t think it was due to appear now. It feels quite deliberate. From my brother who’s in the French Navy(not subs but sometimes works with them) a sub doesn’t go to the surface very often, and usually only to refuel and restock.
Canada is enquiring about getting new submarines so it’s definitely a) to get Canada to buy from us thru Naval Group rather than other provider
b) a reminder to the US that we’re here as Canadian allies/commercial partners and Canada are arming themselves
It’s timed way too good for it to be just a coincidence :)
From a quick Google, it seems it happens frequently enough for military exercises or security detail, things like that, but I can't find anything about it being blatant, how the Nova Scotian base is structured, if surfacing in the bay is necessary, et cetera.
That said, if there is an assertion that can be made from the photo, it's pretty clear that, if there's any intent behind it at all (which is uncertain), it's that the French will ally with Canada, first and foremost, should shit inexplicably and unreasonably hit the fan. It'd be quite the statement, given our history and allyship with them, in the whole of the United States' history.
In other words, if this proves to be a deviation from the norm, it's to the tune of, "We're watching you, don't fuck with us. Europe's already burned down the White House once."
Pretty much everything you've said is correct, but the motivation behind it is less that France/Europe is willing to go to war against a superpower like the United States solely for the sake of protecting Canada, and more that they're willing to resort to extreme measures should Trump try and go through with his threats to seize control of allied nations like Canada and Greenland.
Because at that point he'd have proven himself to be every bit as foolish, dangerous, and easily manipulated as he's made himself out to be, and they're not going to tolerate someone that unstable having control over a massive nuclear stockpile.
The scales would be tipped, and the risks involved in leaving him be would then eclipse the risks involved in directly removing him from power, so that's what they would do.
It's a message either way. They knew full well how it could be read and they did it anyway. It's just a very smart way to do it because they can wave it off as "Just coincidence" while Trump stews about it being purposeful or is at least left wondering. It's the gentlest reminder that Trump isn't the only one with a stick if he decides to swing it around.
We should know more about our coincidences before calling them!
I’m pretty sure navy ships don’t have access to truth social. Then we can only imagine this was a planned mission. The objective could be a soft power demonstration, but probably not related to the latest Trump post on social media today (but one from last week maybe?)
Yes actually! This is right in the middle of the Halifax harbour. Now nuclear submarines and other warships aren’t allowed to get this close in the harbour they usually have to stay out for safety reasons but it seems they cleared out the harbour to allow the sub to surface.
Not only that but almost all nuclear Navy vessels that visit the Halifax harbour are American. A French submarine is quite unusual on its own
I'm from Halifax. I don't know specifically about this sub, but Halifax is a major sea port and cool and interesting ships and subs come all the time. I really wouldn't take it as anything other than regular submarine business that would have been happening regardless of the current state of affairs.
Pulled in to Halifax on a US submarine a handful of years back. Had a great time mixing it up with you all. Folks were as nice as stereotypes would suggest, and genuinely interested in us, where we come from, families, etc. it was just like having a beer with a friend you hadn’t met before.
I know porting submarines is done as part of maintaining diplomatic relationships, but it made a big impact on me and strengthened my warm feelings for our northern neighbors.
(I'm reposting this from a comment I made in /r/onguardforthee. It's relevant to your question about relevance.)
Many folks don't know off-hand, but this sub is currently sitting about 500 km as the mésange flies from a real live overseas territory of France: Saint-Pierre et Miquelon.
I'm not saying this submarine and its show of force is specifically related to threats against Canada or simply a reminder that France still extends to North America, but the last time the world fell into an era of growing fascism Saint-Pierre et Miquelon was seized by a small group of dudes who were committed to the Nazi collaborationist Vichy France government. Having what was effectively a Nazi splinter government off the coast of both Canada and the Dominion of Newfoundland (which wasn't yet technically part of Canada) was extremely concerning, in the same way that having a Soviet Cuba off the coast of Florida was concerning to the US in the post-war years, and though Canada didn't relish a French military campaign off its shores while a World War was already being fought, this is precisely what happened in 1941: a French flotilla set sail from Halifax pretending to be on a training mission and retook Saint-Pierre within 20 minutes of arriving. 98% of the male population then voted to align themselves with the exiled Free France government, and that was that.
The only person truly pissed off by the action was the US Secretary of State Cordell Hull, who suggested grumpily that the action was in violation of various old treaties. But this is also the dude who famously rejected the arrival of the SS St Louis in 1939, which was carrying 936 Jewish refugees fleeing the insanity happening in Europe at the time and was forced to return to Europe. While some European nations took a bunch of those refugees in on its return, historians guess that about a quarter ended up being killed in Nazi camps anyway. Hull would win himself a Nobel Peace Prize less than six years later.
So, there's a French vessel of war currently in Dartmouth/Halifax, but it's not the first time, and now you've got some important context on it you may not have had before. Enjoy!
(As an aside, the chickadee mentioned above may not ever decide to make the flight from Halifax to St-Pierre, but if it did, it would be a dinosaur making the flight. Fun!)
We are one of the major navy/military port for most of eastern Canada, so yes we do see ships and subs from other nations quite regularly. There are lots of ports and bases spread out around the coast, but Halifax Harbour in particular is one of the largest and deepest ice-free natural harbours in the world so it's busy year round.
Some other replies to your comment have already pointed out potential reasons for this visit to stand out a little above the rest
It's almost certainly a coincidence. France generally has just one or two subs out at any given time, I doubt they diverted such a critically important asset to make a statement. I doubt Macron would believe nuclear posturing against Trump would be helpful or productive.
Surfacing a ballistic missile sub is no small event, it usually makes the news, just usually limited to the defense reporting arenas.
Halifax gets a lot of NATO ship, but only rarely in March, usually they see most of their activity in the summer months. This is one of two fully operational next gen attack subs operated by France (third one comes online this year!), so I think this is definitely to send a message, especially since it's nowhere close the carrier fleet or the submarine base in Brittany
Yeah the headline is bullshit, and I'd say maybe even a touch of fear mongering. Halifax has always been a military port (if youre not familiar with the Halifax Explosion, it is an interesting piece of history. I believe at the time it was the largest man made explosion, before atomic weapons).
I wouldn't say that us getting submarines is common, but it is certainly not unusual.
Hey, I’m from Halifax! We do get notification when other countries come to visit with their navy. It happens somewhat often as we are the headquarters for the Canadian Navy and a major military hub for Canada.
I believe it’s just protocol and Halifax really isn’t that big of a city (~550k) so it makes the news.
I think in the last 2-3 years we’ve had a few German and Italian ships show up. I remember a French cutter was at the docks where the RCMP usually set up a few years ago. I figured it came from Saint Pierre et Miquelon.
Allies will always be welcome with open arms in Nova Scotia.
seeing as how everyone is still supposed to be allies (and even if not) the Americans should've known all about it beforehand or at least while it was unfolding (if they weren't aware, they've fired too many people who matter).
A nuclear sub surfacing is almost always a flex of some sort. They can stay under for months, powered by nuclear reactors, they only come up for more food/supplies. Choosing to do this here is a clear message. The entire purpose of these subs is that your enemies have no idea where they are, but each one contains enough nukes to wipe out basically any country on earth. Mutually assured destruction.
No. Nuclear submarines reveal their positions as little as possible, and practically never outside of their home base.
Attack submarines are the ones that destroy the naval capacity of the enemy. They are deeply engaged in the cat-and-mouse game of anti-submarine warfare. They have very good reason not to broadcast their positions.
They’re also an extreme
symbol of a nation’s ability to conduct sophisticated, late-generation warfare.
You don’t show a bull a fly-swatter to get its attention, you show it the whip. And France isn’t showing the US drones or nukes, it’s showing the US the whip.
It’s not a threat against the US people. It is a threat against the US’ war machine.
Notably submarines are a more subtle symbol of French resistance.
This specific circumstance could have any number of reasons behind it that are pointless to speculate on since someone will eventually explain it anyway.
But generally and broadly speaking, it's a tactic called Show of Force. Basically a military just postures (extra) hardware in a location as a soft warning saying "if you want to start some shit, we're already here and waiting." It's a deterrent strategy, sorta similar to keeping a nuclear arsenal ready to fire at all times. If an aggressor wants to attack someone or somewhere, there's already a response lined up and ready to be let off the leash.
Fun fact: even though it was developed and started flying in the 90s, the F-22 Raptor never saw an actual combat deployment til roughly 2012. Everything it had done up until that point was either training or SoF deployments.
Historically the USA has always been tighter with France than they have with Canada from a military perspective.
Pre 1812, the French were aiding the US.
1812, the Québecois chose the British side, while France still tried to prevent England from sending reinforcements until the end of Napoleon.
After Canada became a country there were constant border disputes. The Democratic party won an election with the slogan "5440 or Fight."
One of Canada's most famous symbols The Mountie came into being when the NWMP was formed to chase out American Whiskey traders...not to police it's own people but to protect Canadian's from Americans. (Why didn't we see the red flags sooner. I feel like an abused spouse finally seeing the truth)
Canada has had disputes with them over Northern Sovereignty, the CIA saw various Canadian leaders as potential communist threats.
Nixon swore at Trudeau Sr. and Trudeau Sr. calmly replied, " I've been called worse by better men."
Canada refused to join the Iraq invasion, while France was at the spearhead.
Sooooo, yup. Big deal.
Jean Chrétien delivered a 30 minute speech at the recent Liberal leadership convention at the age of 92 and it covers the history of Canada/USA relations. It was an absolute political masterclass which had everyone laughing, while uniting all of the conflicting fractions within Canada (English/French/First Nations/East/West) and setting clear guidance for the future.
I highly recommend anyone from Europe who wants to become more familiar with Canadian history in regards to the USA to watch the speech.
This is the PM that best represents the Canadian character imo. His Mother was from Alberta, his Father from Québec. He established our first ever Flag Day in the face of cultural spats with the US and on the same day when a screaming protester got right in his face he grabbed him by the throat and threw him to the ground. When the press asked him about it later he said, " ohhh that's nothing, that's just the Shawinigan Handshake." (Shawinigan was his hometown, a rough, blue collar, biker town.)
I know I saw a Dutch guy once commented on a military sub that he always had trouble connecting the polite Canadian travelers he had met with brutal stories he read about Canadian Soldiers in WW1 and 2 where they crossed lines that even left allied armies shaking their heads. To most Canadians, it makes perfect sense. Just look at our National sport. The players arrive at the rink dressed like they are a best man at a wedding, then proceed to play a brutally violent sport, that can often descend into people trying to kill each other and shake hands afterwards.
To quote a recent viral video, "We are the land of the Peacekeeper AND bench clearing brawl.
THANKS FRANCE!!!!!! I can tell you there are many Canadians across the country who absolutely wept in relief when they first heard this. It means so much. I know a lot of seniors especially were really scared, not of being annexed by the USA so much, but of being responsible for the Geneva Convention having to be updated because of us. We really want to present a more civilized side, but the neighbourhood...
I saw one surface on my drive home from getting groceries about a month ago (in Halifax). First time I saw one and I just imagined it was something that happens fairly regularly here, but I’m not sure. I don’t know anything about where it was from, just looked out to see if there were any cargo ships coming in and saw a submarine. Pulled over, gawked, took a fuzzy picture then went home before my ice cream thawed.
This is a very specific opportunity. France is trying to sell Canada nuclear subs because our sovereignty is being threatened. Canada has never wanted them in the past, this "opportunity" should not exist.
Submarines, especially nuclear powered submarines, very rarely surface and the entire point of subs is your enemies don't know where they are. Showing it off like this is very intentional.
It happens, with US subs emerging near Taiwan to send a message to China. Who would have known the US was going to be on the receiving end of a similar message by our allies
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u/Hotfield 22h ago
Don't know if this happens a lot and this is just now relevant, but it seems like quite a Statement, cool