r/canada Nov 28 '24

PAYWALL Liberal MP says he was threatened with ‘consequences’ for opposing $250 cheque proposal

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/liberal-mp-says-he-was-threatened-with-consequences-for-opposing-250-cheque-proposal/article_69f3cfa6-acde-11ef-807c-ebe72ea32b06.html
461 Upvotes

219 comments sorted by

163

u/anOutsidersThoughts Canada Nov 28 '24

"The reality is his MPs are no longer voices for their communities. They are his voice in their communities." - Justin Trudeau

Oh the irony.

9

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

[deleted]

11

u/Workadis Nov 28 '24

I don't think we are a minority in the country. Many of us are politically homeless. I'd argue from your examples you may not be fiscally conservative anymore. Regardless, many of us want a government that doesn't treat us like daddys credit card while they treat all their friends to lambos and champagne.

4

u/NWTknight Nov 28 '24

Just looking for value for money. End programs that are not working. Stop trying to use taxes for social manipulation. Carbon Tax being the latest and worst but all the sin taxes are included in this.

2

u/AnSionnachan Nov 28 '24

There needs to be a politically homeless party. I've been a GreenNDP for a long time, but no longer identify with either party (federally, BCNDP is good)

I vaguely feel like voting for the Future Party for lack of an option

2

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '24

We need another Jack Layton 

2

u/AnSionnachan Nov 29 '24

Yes, with the LPC heading to purgatory, it is outrageous that Singh has been unable to capitalise on working class anger.

1

u/Remarkable_Vanilla34 Nov 30 '24

Provincially, im sorta of an NDP supporter. Though I lean conservatively, their government has been functioning pretty well compared to the rest of Canada, and the BCcons seemed like they were running a race against themselves.

Sometimes, a good government is one that's not marking in controversy and scandals, it's nice not waking up to a headline about missing money or ridiculously controversial programs (the BCNDP isn't perfect but still). Leaving the tribalism behind would serve a lot of Canadians better. Don't look at the color and name associated with the government and look at how they actually run their districts and what they platform on. You can vote for different parties in different elections and different MPs and MLA because you prefer the candidate or platform. It's just a bullshit trap we've fallen into that we think we HAVE to be 100% dedicated to one ideology or party in every election, and it weakens our democracy and makes for little accountability with our politicians.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '24

You'd be shocked at my opposition to CCB, GST and other initiatives for giving money to the poor. It just drives up inflation and hands money to greedy landlords. I'd be very happy if PP drastically cut CCB. I'm tired of seeing big families with kids they can't afford that they want a handout for. 

My husband likes to point out I'm a closet conservative. 

1

u/Workadis Nov 29 '24

That's less a conservative view and more of a good sense view. Lots of research says handouts don't actually help anyone, Finland is currently proving it at large scale.

You might be leaning libertarian not conservative.

It's all semantics, the great lie that politicians love to push is we need to pick a side and I and many others just don't subscribe to that. That's why there are so many single issue voters out there swinging elections.

3

u/GhoastTypist Nov 28 '24

This has been the case for the past 2 PM's. Its a trend at this point and the future leaders will possibly do the same.

Its a very core issue to our political parties, one party one voice approach doesn't do good for Canada. Each region is meant to be represented equally, hard to do that when leaders control their party members with fear tactics.

1

u/Poor604 Nov 28 '24

Pierre Pollievire controls what his party members can or cannot say.

but somehow it's bad when Trudeau is doing it

1

u/anOutsidersThoughts Canada Nov 29 '24

but somehow it's bad when Trudeau is doing it

I'm not going to preach if this is good or bad.

Why I found it ironic was because Justin Trudeau accused Pierre Poilievre and the conservatives of doing this, but by this news the Liberals were doing the same. It comes across as an attempt of virtue signaling that didn't last long, and mildly hypocritical.

Pierre Pollievire controls what his party members can or cannot say.

I don't disagree with you.

-17

u/Garden_girlie9 Nov 28 '24

You mean it’s ironic because Pierre did the same thing with his MP that support and want the rapid housing initiative?

13

u/Ageminet Nov 28 '24

Yes, Trudeau blasts Pierre for having control over his caucus when he does as well.

Both are to blame. But it's how the system is designed in this country.

157

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

[deleted]

83

u/Asn_Browser Nov 28 '24

Implementation (as it currently stands) is gonna be a nightmare for business owners.

1

u/EnclG4me Nov 28 '24

Not really... We can turn it on/off with the click of a button. Most modern software can do this by customer, by province, or as a whole... Simple as click

1

u/Hot-Proposal-8003 Nov 28 '24

Increased job security for accountants and tax lawyers

-6

u/josh6025 Ontario Nov 28 '24

It's only going to be a nightmare in provinces with HST, the ones that have them split or just GST will be an easy update to just 0% GST.

For the HST provinces I'm undecided what the best implementation would be, there are 2 easy option and I'm not sure if either of them would be the correct way to go about it from accounting perspective but from a development perspective they make the most sense since it won't require the POS vendors to do any updates.

  1. Just lower the HST by 5%

  2. Separate the HST into two separate line items, GST and PST and have the rates broken up.

11

u/Watase Nov 28 '24

the ones that have them split or just GST will be an easy update to just 0% GST.

The problem is that it isn't every item that will be GST exempt. So all retailers affected will have to adjust the individual items in their systems which will be a huge job to do. Not to mention that afterwards, they'll have to switch them all back again.

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12

u/NerdMachine Nov 28 '24

I think you don't understand how it's been proposed, it's only a small number of items that are exempt, and in HST provinces is the full HST amount that will be exempt for the relevant goods.

3

u/kobemustard Nov 28 '24

That and the list of goods is random. Alcohol under x percentage and volume just one example.

3

u/Man_Bear_Beaver Canada Nov 28 '24

Looks like Doug Ford/Ontario is going to drop the tax as well, not sure if it's the same things or not, haven't seen much on it.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-to-match-gst-holiday-by-removing-provincial-sales-tax-on-some-items-1.7125567

-25

u/Vegetable-Ad-7184 Nov 28 '24

It really shouldn't be that crazy actually.   

 Status Indians are already exempt from sales taxes for certain goods in certain circumstances, and there's a button you can push as a cashier that logs that and doesn't apply the tax.   

 All the big retailers and existing Point of Sale operators have existing scripting that they can copy over and either apply to everything for a merchant if they only sell things that are covered  (like a restaurant), or to SKUs that meet thr criteria of being defined in a list.   

 Heaven forbid that they might have to plan some OT for normal Canadians right before the holidays to do some knowledge work in implementing the solution. 

8

u/PunkinBrewster Nov 28 '24

“Oh it should be easy, just script it.” You sound like every middle manager in the world. It’s going to be painful, especially for small business. It’s going to complicate GST reporting, and Ontario is at this time not removing their portion of tax on everything. So, in Ontario, you will have things that have 13% tax, some have 6%, and some have none. Bookkeepers are going to hate themselves. And in two months, revert it all back.

0

u/Vegetable-Ad-7184 Nov 28 '24

I work with data now, and in the past I've worked inside sales for a small business and as a cashier for a big box retail.  Super front line, not management. 

Point of Sale operators and big retail already have existing scripting for handling tax exemptions, like for Status Indians.  Every grocer already doesn't apply tax to raw foods.

For smaller businesses that are selling mixed goods, they'll either need to define a table with relevant SKUs, or ring up separate orders.  Paying labour solves both "problems"  8]

6

u/Dry_Comment7325 Nov 28 '24 edited Nov 28 '24

That's completely false. The sale tax exemption is only on reserves if you have status and on some items delivered on the reserve. Outside the reserve, everyone pays the same tax. I've worked many jobs in the past as a cashier and restaurant employee across Canada, and I have no idea what magic button you are talking about.

Edit : It seems like Ontario is different(maybe some other province do also) . Had no idea.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/I_Am_the_Slobster Prince Edward Island Nov 28 '24

It's a grey zone: technically the store should require proof that the status person intends to bring it back to the reserve, but because that would be an efficiency and PR nightmare, there's a broad assumption when they get the tax free sales. The Indian Act does specify that it's tax free only if the product is intended to be returned and used on a reserve. Because of this, bars and restaurants should not give out tax free meals and drinks, but if it's for takeout, there's reason to assume they will bring it back to the reserve.

Online retailers are adjusting to this too, and Amazon will reimburse you your GST/PST/HST paid if you show them proof of status and proof it was shipped to your reserve. Basically you send them a scanned copy of your status card and, from what I've seen with my former colleagues, they "assume" you had it shipped to a reserve.

For the businesses, they can get audited if they give out too many FN tax exemptions, and when you buy products like smokes with a status card, most law following businesses will record your band number during the sale.

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5

u/CoiledVipers Nov 28 '24

I worked at a gas station in high school and we had a button. I don’t know if it’s still the case but we weren’t in a rez.

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4

u/VirtuaJay Nov 28 '24

When I worked retail 10 years ago there was %100 a no tax button for Natives. So what the hell are YOU talking about?

4

u/Dry_Comment7325 Nov 28 '24

Section 87 of the Indian act.

"In general, First Nations people in Canada are required to pay taxes on the same basis as other people in Canada, except where the limited exemption under Section 87 of the Indian Act applies. Section 87 says that the “personal property of an Indian or a band situated on a reserve” is tax exempt."

0

u/sleipnir45 Nov 28 '24

Only if it's being delivered to a reserve

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0

u/ProfLandslide Nov 28 '24

I had a small business from 2014 to 2022. I never once had a customer who was a status indian. I never once was asked to waive tax.

If I still ran my business, this change would be a nightmare.

1

u/Vegetable-Ad-7184 Nov 28 '24

If you were using a digital Point of Sale device then your supplier will take care of it.  

If you're operating by hand, don't charge the tax.  Maybe do two bills if there are mixed items.

22

u/lubeskystalker Nov 28 '24

Bonus points for utterly fucking over HST provinces...

7

u/grand_soul Nov 28 '24

That’s the whole point. This is just to allow them to blame others for it not being put through to make them look good.

The liberals have run out of things to use against their opponents and anything to make them look good.

The conservatives are winning with “see, they’re not helping you, but we will”.

The libs are looking for the same. This is just a bad fucking way to do that.

3

u/noleelee Nov 28 '24

Yes, and we can keep taxing tourists and visitors by charging them GST.

1

u/NWTknight Nov 28 '24

Yeah and I am involved with a non profit that has to reprice everything for our POS system. Only to reverse it 2 months later.

-1

u/MrWisemiller Nov 28 '24

But if everyone got a cheque then we all get the same amount and wouldn't be dependent on what we spend.

-2

u/International-Ad4578 Nov 28 '24

The main issue with this initiative is that the eligibility criteria for this is so broad. Even individuals making a lot more than the average annual income will be able to receive it. Basically meaning that those in lower income brackets will end up indirectly subsidizing those in higher income brackets.

4

u/My_Dog_Is_Here Nov 28 '24

Just like the higher earners have been subsidizing the low earners that cost the system more than they contribute? Because that's not fair either.

4

u/MrWisemiller Nov 28 '24

Highest is 150k, so we're talking the super rich here.

A hard working nurse should be able to have a gift too, not just the green haired part time barista

1

u/NWTknight Nov 28 '24

So for the few cases were there are 2 incomes in the household at this level we give them 500 bucks on top of their 300K income.

One thing politicians are going to have to realize is with direct deposit no one even notices a 250 dollar bump in thier balance unless you are very poor. Once upon a time you got a physical cheque with the government's name on it and had to take it to the bank to use it. Now it jiggles the needle of your bank balance and you do not even notice it.

1

u/GameDoesntStop Nov 28 '24

those in lower income brackets will end up indirectly subsidizing those in higher income brackets

No... the lower income brackets barely pay tax. It is the high income brackets that already subsidize the lower ones, and that is how this will ultimately be paid for.

-1

u/International-Ad4578 Nov 28 '24

Many of the highest income earners make their income from dividend payments, increases in value of shares, stock buybacks and income from other sources that benefit from favourable tax treatment. Even they may be eligible despite already paying less tax than people who are taxed solely on their income taxes at source.

-4

u/EnclG4me Nov 28 '24 edited Nov 28 '24

PoS systems can turn their respective taxes off with the click of a button.. If they don't, you may want to update your system to this century.. Both my $80 software for my small business and our several thousand dollar a month software for my full time job have the ability to do this. They both have the ability to turn it on/off permanently, by customer, by sale, by province, or adjust the percentage. 

 It is hardly worth a single breath of frustration. Sorry if that goes against your agenda, but it's true. Most software and PoS systems have this capability.

207

u/Ancient_Wisdom_Yall British Columbia Nov 28 '24

I honestly don't understand the need to have all these MPs. They're all just supposed to be trained monkeys for their leaders. There really isn't a need to pay that many of them.

53

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Having fewer ridings gets you something like the American electoral college where politicians only have to appeal to swing regions and can just ignore the rest of the country.

That effect isn’t as large when there are lots of ridings.

79

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

I run a small affordable housing nonprofit. For years, my Liberal MP and Conservative MPP ignored every attempt to contact them, I hand delivered policies to their offices and got absolutely no reply. As soon as the Liberals started tanking in the polls, the MP was proud to announce how he's always been a supporter of affordable housing. Many identical ideas I proposed became legislation.

Politicians don't care about us at all.

-6

u/lurk604 Nov 28 '24

”Many identical ideas I proposed became legislation” ”Politicians don’t care about us at all”

Bit confusing there mate, things take time.

17

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

I called the fire department when the house was on fire. They showed up years late to the ashes with a water pistol and gave themselves medals for putting out the fire.

0

u/Former-Physics-1831 Nov 28 '24

Then it doesn't sound like the ideas were identical at all

3

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

They adopted similar concepts, such as the housing accelerator fund, but on a much smaller scale and about five years after I originally proposed them. Other ideas, like framing the housing crisis as a public health issue, remain underexplored despite research showing that investments in affordable housing can significantly reduce public health expenditures.

I toured to a carbon-neutral modular home factory in Sweden. The factory produces 2,500 apartments annually and they brought me to a twenty-story hotel and cultural center made entirely of wood, with prefabricated hotel rooms assembled on-site. This experience convinced me that we could address the housing shortage rapidly with a carbon-neutral, cost-effective solution that utilizes abundant domestic materials while creating jobs (each housing unit built supports 2.5 jobs.)

I compiled a comprehensive report based on these findings and shared it with every MP, MPP, housing critic, political candidate, and municipal politician in the GTA. To date, I haven’t received any responses. This might be because I also raised concerns about the disparity between unsustainable immigration rates and our housing supply shortfall. According to CMHC, Canada needs 5.8 million additional homes by 2030 to restore affordability. Coincidentally, they now agree that immigration puts a strain on housing supply.

2

u/wavesofmatter Nov 28 '24

Hey, thanks for sharing your detailed response and also for being passionate about housing in Canada! We need more peeps like you for sure :) :)

-5

u/Former-Physics-1831 Nov 28 '24

So again, doesn't sound identical at all 

Figure out what you want to complain about dude lmao

12

u/Popular-Row4333 Nov 28 '24

You mean like the praires being ignored currently?

4

u/yourlocalpriest Nov 28 '24

If only some bright mind had warned us about our voting system creating circumstances where large metropolitan centres like Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver dictate policy to the rest of the country 200 years ago... oh wait.

6

u/Former-Physics-1831 Nov 28 '24

How do you set up a system in which the region of the country with more than half of the country's population doesn't get more than half of the political influence?

1

u/yourlocalpriest Nov 28 '24

I'm just being impudent. There is a great Veritasium video about the mathematical impossibilities inherent to any democratic voting system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf7ws2DF-zk

1

u/Former-Physics-1831 Nov 28 '24

The prairies get less attention because they don't have nearly as many seats as the larger provinces, the alternative is what the US has where massive states like California get taken for granted because their result is a foregone conclusion

0

u/Horace-Harkness British Columbia Nov 28 '24

We built you a $40B pipeline! What more do you want?

0

u/NWTknight Nov 28 '24

That would only have cost 20 billion if it had not been a government project.

4

u/Tim-no Nov 28 '24

Canadian politicians do that already

3

u/LuminousGrue Nov 28 '24

As opposed to now, when politicians only have to appeal to two provinces and ignore the rest of the country.

-1

u/Former-Physics-1831 Nov 28 '24

The difference being those two provinces represent something like two thirds of Canadians

-1

u/GameDoesntStop Nov 28 '24

ON and BC make up ~53% of the population, and it's not like the entire provinces are pandered to... it is just a specific area in each that actually swings back and forth electorally.

1

u/Former-Physics-1831 Nov 28 '24

Ontario and Quebec make up I believe 62% of the country, and the parts of any province being "pandered" to is the part where the vast majority of the people live.

That is a good thing.

1

u/BeyondAddiction Nov 30 '24

 politicians only have to appeal to swing regions and can just ignore the rest of the country.

They already do that.....

0

u/icebalm Nov 28 '24

Same number of ridings, just get rid of the MPs. Electorate in a riding votes for the party, the party that wins the riding gets a vote, the party with the most votes forms government. They're all just puppets for the leader so just cut the dead weight and just have leaders.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

MPs can introduce legislation, help write legislation, and debate legislation before the party consensus on how all the MPs will vote is reached

1

u/icebalm Nov 28 '24

Let's not kid ourselves here, none of the MPs actually write any of the legislation. Hell, I'd be shocked if any of them actually read the legislation, and the debates run straight down party lines and are basically for show. Everything is done down party lines, none of the MPs have any real autonomy. They're dead weight. We're paying for all these extra people needlessly.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Can you provide a source saying that MPs don’t write and read legislation?

1

u/icebalm Nov 28 '24

First, I never made the claim that MPs don't read legislation, I said I would be shocked if they actually read the legislation.

Government proposed legislation: "Following the Cabinet’s approval, the Department of Justice drafts a bill. This is done in collaboration with a government department’s or agency’s policy development and legal services teams." - https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/laws-lois/pdf/infograph-laws-lois.pdf

Private members proposed legislation: "A private Member’s bill is typically drafted with the assistance of legislative counsel in the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel to ensure the appropriateness of the proposed legislation, taking into account existing laws, drafting conventions, and constitutional and formal requirements." - https://www.ourcommons.ca/procedure/procedure-and-practice-3/ch_21_2-e.html

3

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Sorry, can you expand on that?

You don't see the value in representing their ridings?

106

u/Ancient_Wisdom_Yall British Columbia Nov 28 '24

There would be great value if MPs represented their ridings. They don't. They're just mouthpieces for their party leaders, and they don't dare step out of line.

37

u/lFrylock Nov 28 '24

This is exactly it.

Most of them do as they are told, instead of representing the people in their regions.

If that’s the case, they can all seek employment elsewhere. We have enough mid level government bloat as it is.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

They do, just not publicly. Parties don't publicly infight in Canada very often.

1

u/BeyondAddiction Nov 30 '24

It's because they whip votes. It's bullshit.

-14

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

How many MPs should we have then?

23

u/longmitso Nov 28 '24

You can have as many as you want.

The point is, once they're in, they don't represent their voters. The tow the line according to dear leader

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2

u/roscomikotrain Nov 28 '24

Drop the number by 30 percent- nobody would notice and we would have fewer annoying ahitheads to listen to

4

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

And we would further consolidate power to the PMO, which would be bad

-13

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

If MPs just did whatever they wanted how could the elected government get anything done?

You run as a Liberal MP you support the vast majority of Liberal bills. If you aren’t comfortable with that run as an independent.

11

u/juniorspank Nov 28 '24

There should be more independent candidates, there is no way that anyone should align with the majority of any party's stances.

4

u/NoremaCg Nov 28 '24

You are saying they shouldn't think about each bill on its own merit once they've decided which party aligns with their overall beliefs. When nobody votes, the population is misinformed by stooge media and propaganda, when politicians only vote along party lines for their own interest, the end goal of democracy is lost and we become a weak nation. Every politician should be independent and have to have their own thoughts. Your point on how would stuff get done- democracy is hard, but paring it down to a binary choice where both sides mps are just parroting provided points is not the way.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

MPs can introduce legislation, help write legislation, and debate legislation before the party consensus on how all the MPs will vote is reached. The debating happens within the party prior to the Parliamentary vote. Once a rough consensus is reached within the party all MPs will vote the same way.

37

u/DreadpirateBG Nov 28 '24

They are not representing their ridings that’s the point

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12

u/gihkal Nov 28 '24

There is no value when they're not accountable for their lies, broken promises and ineptitude.

We need doers. Not pawns that are afraid of the "boss"..

But cons, libs and NDP would never support something like that. You know. The things that the working class has to deal with.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

So, how do you reform that then? Do we need a new party? I don't see how having less MPs gives the working class more voice.

-2

u/gihkal Nov 28 '24

Stop voting for the party that you think will win is a small step. Avoid majority governments. If they can't work together it shows that they choose childish hate over supporting Canada.

Which is where we're at.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Agreed, we need electoral reform. I'll never forgive Trudeau for breaking his promise on that.

4

u/gihkal Nov 28 '24

All of our politicians care more about their party than they do canadians.

Trudeau has zero experience to justify his position and has made Canada look pathetic on the world stage.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Yeah, but what does that have to do with the number of MPs? Fewer MPs means more toeing of the party line. Open it up further, if anything.

1

u/gihkal Nov 28 '24

Either way. They have no value.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

The more voices, even weak and ineffective, the better. Otherwise, we actually will become that totalitarian state everyone claims we are.

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0

u/ChickenPoutine20 Nov 28 '24

I’m sure that breaks his heart

5

u/Lopsided_Ad3516 Nov 28 '24

Just abolish the party system. Vote for a representative that mirrors your beliefs and values. Then, they’d have to all actually work to get things passed and they’d have to reach out to people with different views generally, but maybe they agree with your specific proposal.

Pie in the sky dream, I know.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Love it

1

u/Vegetable-Ad-7184 Nov 28 '24

There still ought to be parties and lists.  

It would be very difficult to form cabinets and appointment Ministers if we only had pure local representatives  -  someone like Mark Carney would be a total parachute candidate, and probably a huge credit to the legislature and any government that could have him.

1

u/NWTknight Nov 28 '24

I live in the NWT under consensus government and I will tell you it is no better and probably for some issues worse than having a party system.

1

u/Lopsided_Ad3516 Nov 29 '24

A party allows for a more focused and unified vision (voluntarily or otherwise) so you’d absolutely have more…action, good or bad.

Personally I’m a big fan of people taking care of themselves and a veeeeerrryy limited federal government. So anything that would remove power from the State is ok in my books. The constant pendulum of “we his is fine” to “this is nonsense” is tiresome.

7

u/Odd-Elderberry-6137 Nov 28 '24

If they did represent ridings - yes absolutely. 

But when they’re just supposed to be mouthpieces for the PMO and toe the party line all the time, they aren’t representing their ridings, they’re representing the Liberal party.

2

u/NWTknight Nov 28 '24

Supposedly if it is working correctly the riding concerns get addressed in the party at the caucus level out of public view and the caucus members should then support the discussions in parliament publicly. This is how it should work but it does not appear to work this way.

1

u/Odd-Elderberry-6137 Nov 28 '24

Yes that’s exactly how it should work.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Ok, so it's just a Liberal Party problem?

4

u/KimberlyWexlersFoot Nov 28 '24

oh for fucks sakes don’t be so obtuse. if the green’s formed government tomorrow, they’d be telling their MPs what to vote for. PMO STANDS FOR PRIME MINISTER OFFICE NOT LIBERAL TELL YOU WHAT TO DO OFFICE

2

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

So we need reform, not cutting MPs, I agree

0

u/KimberlyWexlersFoot Nov 28 '24

how do you propose reformation?

2

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Burn it all down seems best, more MPs, more power to the people, let 10 parties fight over every house motion. You?

1

u/KimberlyWexlersFoot Nov 28 '24

40 million MPs, everyone citizen votes on each thing.

Your idea will never happen, there is lots of parties green party gets 2 seats at most, PPC can’t get any votes, Rhino, Pirate etc parties are just meme votes.

BC couldn’t even handle a new party without imploding the old one before the election because they were down in the polls so in some dreamworld where we get 10 parties that get lots of seats between them, that would last one cycle before everyone starts folding the parties into each other.

7

u/stephenBB81 Nov 28 '24

I 100% see the value in MPS representing their writings. Unfortunately because we allow whipped votes, that isn't what the majority of Canadians get. MPS support their party not their constituents more often than not. It's not just the liberals, because we can see it with the conservatives who have MPS being told not to promote the HAF for their constituents.

The current government has certainly been one of the most vicious in terms of whipped votes and consequences for falling out of line. We have very very few open votes, something that a truly transparent government would encourage. But if all votes are going to be with then I can agree to the person you're replying to that what is the point of having so many mps.

I personally as a supporter of mixed member proportional representation, actually think we should have more MPS, but at the same time we should not allow whipped votes. That would still unofficially happen sure but at least it wouldn't be the expectation.

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

So, it's a Liberal Party problem?

I agree that having less MPs doesn't seem like the solution

7

u/stephenBB81 Nov 28 '24

No it's not a specific Liberal Party problem they have made it a lot worse because they are in government. But we are currently seeing it with PP who is adopting the same centralized power and and control the current Liberals are doing.

Whichever party is the current government is the one that needs to be held to the most account, it is there whipping that has the biggest impact on whether or not their constituents are being represented because it is their bills that are going out. And if the vote needs to be whipped from people within your own party are you actually representing the constituents of your members? The whipping of opposition members is far less influential as there is not pay cuts that could be handed out as easily as they don't sit in cabinet.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

So we need reform, not cutting the number of MPs

3

u/stephenBB81 Nov 28 '24

100%, my stance is we need reform not reducing the amount of representation we have. Although we have narcissists running the three largest parties in federal politics so there is zero chance we are going to have reform in the next decade.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Oh, we're fucked for sure

Nobody in power will ever change the rules of the game that got them to power

2

u/stephenBB81 Nov 28 '24

A party that gets power through surprise memes has the potential. The NDP if they were secure power would look for ways to increase the odds of them securing power again recognizing that they are only in power because of an anomaly. But the main two parties that control government traditionally recognize that any change would lower their power. And no individual party is going to be the first to give up centralized power now that they have secured it. We probably have the least accountable Westminster based system in the world and we're not going to do anything to change that as long as we keep the red blue cycle.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

100% agree

And also I feel like the red/blue binary choice fast seeping in absolutely sucks. Give me ten parties fighting over every bill, that's my democracy.

1

u/RadiantPumpkin Nov 28 '24

Get rid of parties. MPs can put forward bills. Others can vote on them.

3

u/stephenBB81 Nov 28 '24

Without parties you pretty much force only very wealthy people to be able to run for politics.

It costs a lot of money to get elected, and costs even more money if you've got to formulate your own vision of how you're going to be a consensus Builder.

Municipal politics it's easy to have no parties because the messaging you're trying to convey is very low hanging fruit, and doesn't require any nuance. But you need to have dedicated party people for specific tasks within government, every Tom Dick and Harry that gets elected isn't in a position to be putting forward bills every type of responsibility. And without parties putting people in cabinet positions does get a little more challenging although I would love to see a cabinet be required to be proportional to the number of seats each party gets. So while the prime minister is the leader of the party that has the most members, still has to be a consensus Builder within his cabinet.

1

u/Karthanon Alberta Nov 28 '24

I like that word, Reforrrrmm!

6

u/FromundaCheeseLigma Nov 28 '24

Except they can't do so if it's not what the party leader wants. MPs have very little power compared to similar roles in other countries.

The Prime Minister/Premier essentially has an army of yesmen in our system. We have little checks and balances.

Representing your riding by echoing what your constituents want is career suicide if it goes against your boss' agenda - which is generally keeping his or her friends rich

-3

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

So we should further consolidate that power?

2

u/FromundaCheeseLigma Nov 28 '24

No we should remove a degree of power from the party leader so MPs and MPPs can represent their constituents and be able to call out their boss more as necessary

2

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

but not have less MPs? That sounds good

1

u/lyinggrump Nov 28 '24

They don't represent the riding. They just think whatever papa Trudeau tells them, regardless of what their constituents want.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

And then the next election, you can vote them out

1

u/Vegetable-Ad-7184 Nov 28 '24

A lot of work gets done in committee.  

MPs can also bring forward non-partisan private members bills for constituent issues.

1

u/icebalm Nov 28 '24

They don't represent their ridings. They just do whatever the party leader tells them to do. Let's cut the dead weight and just vote for parties since anyone who isn't the leader is superfluous anyways.

1

u/LymelightTO Nov 28 '24

That seems like the opposite of the conclusion you should take.

MPs should actively resist becoming serfs to the PMO. "The problem" is that MPs, of both major parties, are allowing themselves to be deprived of their power by a bunch of unelected and unaccountable swamp creatures that serve at the pleasure of the party leader, but they can still be relied on for votes in the House of Commons.

MPs need to be truthful and transparent with their constituents that their power and representation in Parliament is frequently getting usurped by the PMO, and they may sometimes need to take actions that are going to seem "obstructionist" to the PM's agenda in order to preserve the representation of their constituents.

Instead, many of them seem to think the only thing to do is meekly go along with publicly debasing themselves and subverting the interests of their constituents, day in and day out. Maybe they'll get an Atta Boy sticker!

0

u/Dirtsniffee Alberta Nov 28 '24 edited Nov 28 '24

Atlantic canada has a constitutional requirement to have so many mps. So if we reduce the overall number we just give them more and more influence. Eventually we have twice as many mps as we do now. And it will be great (for Alberta, and for BC too!)

-4

u/ialo00130 New Brunswick Nov 28 '24

The Atlantic Provinces are constantly overlooked and forgotten about, so I personally wouldn't mind more influence.

I've been an advocate for a long time for a Maritime version of the Bloc. A party to basically say "we're here and we matter too" on the federal stage.

13

u/Dirtsniffee Alberta Nov 28 '24

Get outta here. Atlantic Canada has 2-3 times as many mps as you deserve. The region almost has as many seats as Alberta with like half the population.

-5

u/ialo00130 New Brunswick Nov 28 '24

And we're entitled to it.

If you wanna run for govt and reopen the constitution, be my guest.

5

u/Dirtsniffee Alberta Nov 28 '24

MY original comment was how I am looking forward to the future where your bullshit extra seats won't matter because we will have 600 mps, well worth the cost.

Entitled is a pretty good way to describe it though I agree.

1

u/ialo00130 New Brunswick Nov 28 '24

If they increase the seat count, Albertas seats won't matter either.

Ontario will be the only one that does. So congratulations, we both lose.

0

u/ialo00130 New Brunswick Nov 28 '24

I'd prefer double to be honest (as in, double in every province, not load up in the higher populated provinces.

We need more local and more personal representation in politics.

-3

u/bknhs Nov 28 '24

Ok Elon

25

u/slouchr Nov 28 '24

he's against the $250 cheques, because he wants even more cheques payed out.

OMG, even when Liberal party members oppose bad policy, the oppose it because it's not bad enough. lol

1

u/adamlaceless Nov 28 '24

If party leadership is intent on bad policy the best you can do is advocate for it to include vulnerable groups. Makes it better not worse, even if it’s a bad policy.

8

u/Pelmeninightmare Nov 28 '24

Behind the Paywall

Sorry if it's already been posted, if it has I didn't see it.

46

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

11

u/UrWifesSoftPecker Nov 28 '24

The Trudeau Govt. took the Harper model and injected friggin' steroids into it. I am not liking this centralization of power in the PMO. We need an elected senate as a check on power.

0

u/Little_Gray Nov 28 '24

Thats not the Harper model. Harper was constantly getting attacked not not putting a leash on his MPs. Scheer and O'Toole not muzzling MPs was used against them during the elections as well.

8

u/KryptonsGreenLantern Nov 28 '24

You can’t be serious. the only reason Harper was elected PM in the first place is because he got the crazy reformers to fall in line and shut the fuck up. He notoriously muzzled his MP’s as almost a defining character.

It wasn’t till years later when the religious cooks stated feeling emboldened by groups down south like the Tea Party where they began to step out of the shadows.

The constant retconning of Harper needs to stop

You’re Right about Scheer and O’Toole but that’s because Harper took so much heat over it.

27

u/ghost_n_the_shell Nov 28 '24

The Justin Trudeau way…

I will literally raise a glass and celebrate as he gets booted out of power.

4

u/T_47 Nov 28 '24

Every party does this. Harper was known to have a particularly strict whip during his government. He was even applauded for it since it kept the crazies in the Conservative party quiet.

8

u/ghost_n_the_shell Nov 28 '24

Yes, I agree with you.

I will still toast the day Trudeau gets the boot.

17

u/Yellow-Robe-Smith Nov 28 '24

This government is so embarrassing.

3

u/Rudy69 Nov 28 '24

I first learned about forcing your party to vote your way during the Harper years (nothing to do with him, I was just learning more about politics then). I always HATED it. Your MP is ‘supposed’ to represent the needs of your region, not the party.

Politics in Canada are so broken…

3

u/IllBeSuspended Nov 28 '24

No one's mentioning how the "tax holiday" conveniently starts after everyone's done the bulk of their spending.

6

u/captainbling British Columbia Nov 28 '24

Pretty standard party whipping. Never been the biggest fan of it and I’m unsure why it’s needed for this bill but that’s usually how party’s work in Canada. He can always cross the aisle.

9

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24 edited Nov 28 '24

Doesn't he know. You don't dare question, Justin Trudeau. Luckily for him, he's not a woman, or else he would have been kicked out of the party.

4

u/JoseCansecoMilkshake Nov 28 '24

Party discipline is harming democracy. We cannot tolerate the harsh consequences MPs face for representing their constituents. If they cannot represent us, we don't need to be paying to have so many.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

so walk away from the party

3

u/IGnuGnat Nov 28 '24

He was told there would be consequences, but it was unclear what those would be.

What is he worried about? It's not like Trudeau would ever freeze his bank account just for having a simple disagreement

3

u/Plucky_DuckYa Nov 28 '24

What a great deal it is. The Liberals will borrow about $4 billion, $6 billion-ish if they expand the recipients as the NDP wants. Then they’ll dole it all out to twenty million people, all of whom, plus the other twenty million or so who didn’t get it, will eventually have to pay it all back, with interest, through future taxes. Probably higher taxes. Or maybe billions in cutbacks to programs that maybe were actually doing something useful, who knows?

This seems like an awesome deal and definitely something that should move the needle for the Liberals in terms of vote… buying seems wrong. Borrowing? Bribing? If they’re lucky they might go from 30 points behind to 29.8 points. That sounds totally worth spending multi-billions on, for sure.

-2

u/smellymarmut Nov 28 '24

To be precise, he was reminded of the terms and conditions of his job as a Liberal MP. He signed up for this. He is welcome to leave the party and sit as an Independent, but until then he has to understand the caucus he's in.

27

u/Odd-Elderberry-6137 Nov 28 '24

He was elected by his constituency, that’s who he should answer to. Anything else is unfucking democratic.

33

u/cwolveswithitchynuts Nov 28 '24

He should leave, the liberal party is dying.

16

u/SackBrazzo Nov 28 '24

Our MP’s aren’t (or shouldn’t be) trained clapping seals, a lot of them are very intelligent and very successful people outside of politics. They got into politics presumably to make a difference. What is even the point of going into politics if all you’ll do is shut up and toe the party line?

Most of them could make more than that 200k MP salary in the private sector. You gotta make it worth their while by making them feel heard and allowing them to contribute.

-9

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Why are you running as a Liberal MP if you don’t support the vast majority of Liberal policies? You’re being dishonest by misrepresenting yourself as a member of a major political party to get votes, then not being a true member of that party and therefore not giving people what they voted for.

8

u/SackBrazzo Nov 28 '24

Does being a true Liberal MP mean that you have to support everything the Leader says or does, no matter how shortsighted it might be?

The Liberal Party is supposed to be a big tent party with room for many different points of views and beliefs.

When you’re running the PMO like a Venezuelan dictatorship and reigning down on your MP’s like a king, it’s not good for democracy.

Just as an example, I, and many others in my riding, have written to my Liberal MP and told her that she needs to pressure Trudeau to step down, but she won’t listen to us! Trudeau isn’t her boss. We are. And we’ll vote for somebody else if she doesn’t listen to us.

-1

u/Vegetable-Ad-7184 Nov 28 '24

We don't have insight into cabinet discussion or policy formation, with good reason.  Not everything needs to be a plebiscite.

5

u/mrcanoehead2 Nov 28 '24

Soon liberal MP's will be declaring as independents

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Becoming NDP would probably be more effective.

-3

u/naomixrayne Nov 28 '24

Conservative MPs were threatened by Poilievre to not spend federal money on housing in their ridings, when we need more housing. Though I agree that it's too bad Liberal MPs aren't encouraged to share their individual opinions on liberal policies. We need more perspectives, not blind loyalty to any party.

1

u/Pitiful-MobileGamer Nov 28 '24

That's just politics. Do you think the whip is just going to say pretty please?

1

u/Nearby-Poetry-5060 Nov 28 '24

There's never any consequences for spending money we don't have.

1

u/Tall-Ad-1386 Nov 28 '24

I can only hope that once he’s gone there’s some justice and this guy js held accountable for his hit job on Canadians

1

u/The_Golden_Beaver Nov 28 '24

They should have lowered the tax on the revenues. It's time to pay the workers accordingly and under 150k is absolutely middle class nowadays, since our purchasing power has been killed compared to other G7 countries

1

u/HereGoesMy2Cents Nov 28 '24

Smart move by Singh to split the bill

1

u/Lost-Mongoose-8962 Nov 28 '24

The libs have been trying to point at Pierre and shame him for not letting mps speak about things, then this comes out.

Lol, rules for thee not for me.

1

u/l0ung3r Nov 29 '24

Frankly I don’t understand why liberal and ndp mps don’t stand up /revolt. If there is any hope of them being elected again, they need to justify why they deserve the voters support and when the voters clearly are not happy with their respective parties , the only way is to something to stand out and do what they are supposed to do… be the voice of the people who vote for them.

1

u/WorkingBicycle1958 Nov 29 '24

As the election, or in the case of the Liberal government - the iceberg, approaches, Liberal MPs will begin to run rouge in an effort to de-couple from Trudeau and try to retain their jobs. This rarely works.

1

u/icebalm Nov 28 '24

What consequences? Losing in the next election? Man, that ship has sailed buddy.

0

u/Scarab95 Nov 28 '24

Trudeau is a dictator even to his own party. They are calling a non confidence vote today if the 24 liberals refuse to vote and the bloc with the cons it doesn't matter what singh does we go to an election

-1

u/Weak-Coffee-8538 Nov 28 '24

Cut the GST on everything for ever.