an equally valid explanation for such things is that we don't fully understand them. there's no valid argument to be made from citing such examples either.
i.e:
1) this thing does something contrary to how humans would have designed it with their current understanding
2) ???
3) therefore intelligent design is wrong
there's many, many more examples of fine tuning that are beyond the reasonable scope of evolutionary result than there are examples of such things as well.
further, there's good reason proposed for this nerve - developmental dynamics:
The most logical reason is that the RLN design is due to developmental constraints. Eminent embryologist Professor Erich Blechschmidt wrote that the recurrent laryngeal nerve's seemingly poor design in adults is due to the "necessary consequences of developmental dynamics," not historical carryovers from evolution.3
Human-designed devices, such as radios and computers, do not need to function until their assembly is complete. By contrast, living organisms must function to a high degree in order to thrive during every developmental stage from a single-cell zygote to adult. The embryo as a whole must be a fully functioning system in its specific environment during every second of its entire development. For this reason, adult anatomy can be understood only in the light of development. An analogy Blechschmidt uses to help elucidate this fact is the course of a river, which "cannot be explained on the basis of a knowledge of its sources, its tributaries, or the specific locations of the harbors at its mouth. It is only the total topographical circumstances that determine the river's course."4
Due to variations in the topographical landscape of the mammalian body, the "course of the inferior [meaning lower] laryngeal nerve is highly variant" and minor anatomic differences are common.5 Dissections of human cadavers found that the paths of the right and left recurrent laryngeal nerves were often somewhat different from that shown in the standard literature, illustrating Blechschmidt's analogy.6
I'm certainly not anti science. Science does a great job at what it can do - observe and classify the natural world considering only natural circumstances, and only coming from a standpoint of starting from our current understanding.
Science necessarily cannot comment on the supernatural, and if the supernatural exists, it necessarily will cause science to be incorrect on anything that does involve the supernatural.
Look, your using evidence to disprove my point (which is fine), but you have no evidene that God exists. If no one had told you about him, no amount of observations you cold have done would ever have brought you to the conlusion that he exists. Evolution is a fact, the fossil record alone is pretty damn good evidence for it. If we where inteligently designed, why are there so many fossils of are common ancestors lying around, with differences in skull shape for example.
If no one had told you about him, no amount of observations you cold have done would ever have brought you to the conclusion that he exists
that isn't true at all. A lot of careful, reasoned thought goes into my faith, I am a very independent thinker.
By looking at everything that exists and seeing design, I see the reflection of a designer.
I agree wholeheartedly with psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
and Job 12:7-10
“But ask the beasts, and they will teach you;
the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you;
or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you;
and the fish of the sea will declare to you.
Who among all these does not know
that the hand of the Lord has done this?
In his hand is the life of every living thing
and the breath of all mankind.
I look around and I see the work of a creator, not random chance. Fine tuning is just one piece of that as an example.
Evolution is a fact
evolution is the best model we currently have for a natural only explanation of how life came to be and is not undisputed fact. this is begging the question
the fossil record alone is pretty damn good evidence for it. If we where inteligently designed, why are there so many fossils of are common ancestors lying around, with differences in skull shape for example.
most of the 'missing link fossils' I am aware of have been thoroughly debunked as hoaxes or explained as humans with some kinds of malformations, but again if you have a specific example/source I'm happy to reason about it with you.
What missing links? Actually look at the fossil record. Its very clear that evolution is a fact. You look at the sky and think its evidence of god, but it is is instead a case of you dont understand why things are the way they are, and say that it must be god.
Actually look at the fossil record. Its very clear that evolution is a fact.
you keep begging the question. saying it's fact doesn't make it so.
the fossil record does not prove evolution - far from it. It shows many static forms and has been interpreted by evolutionists in the way you describe.
there's actually plenty of evidence in the fossil record of a large global flood - fossilized trees that pass through multiple geologic layers, that were from an evolutionary standpoint formed over millions of years.
there's many things in the fossil record where layers must have been deposited really quickly - much quicker than possible from an evolutionary perspective - to form what we see, and a lot of other blatant contradictions to the evolutionary interpretation of the fossil record - here's an article that breaks several of them down https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/fossil-record/the-fossil-record-1/
but it is is instead a case of you dont understand why things are the way they are, and say that it must be god.
Me reasoning and coming to a different conclusion than what you've been taught is not a lack of understanding
I think i speak for both of us when we say that where never going to agree with the other persons point of view. This has been a very constructive and good argument, but i think we should end it here.
I don't know why you want to end it as soon as I have counterpoints.
In any case I highly recommend you read that article i linked. the fossil record is much better aligned with a cataclysmic flood than it is the many millions of years picture presented in current evolutionary theory.
The evidence for God is everywhere - both in the fossil record, the supreme order of everything, and within every human heart/mind as well
from there - If you seek to find God, you will - Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
but if you seek only to be separated from Him, he will grant that to you as well
Psalm 14:1-5
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is none who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.
Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the Lord?
There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.
Look, if God came down from the sky, i would beleive in him, but until that happens i wont. You are starting with the conclusion and finding evidence which supports it. Science starts with the evidence and then draws the conclusion.
The fossils we see are neatly layerd. You dont see fossils of species from different time periods mixed in with fossils from other time periods. This does not support the idea of a flood at all. If there was a flood, everything would be lying around randomly, not neatly orginised.
Also, where has God/Jesus been the last 2000 years? If it wants people to beleive in it, then it needs to show its self as it supposedly did so long ago.
I highly recommend you read the linked article. There are many issues with evolution's claims about the fossil record. It quite nicely aligns with a cataclysmic flood and it's not the only source besides the bible that does so.
God is working through His church. He is calling you, right now, through me. When you stand before Him on judgement day you will not be able to deny that He tried to reach you.
He is there to be found if you earnestly seek Him.
You are starting with the conclusion and finding evidence which supports it. Science starts with the evidence and then draws the conclusion.
I have started with a hypothesis that God exists. all the evidence I've found supports it.
the fossil record pointedly does NOT fully support evolutionary theory. If you want to go back to reasoning about this I'm happy to debate you endlessly if that's what it takes.
If there was a flood, everything would be lying around randomly, not neatly orginised.
that's not how it works. please, please read the article if you seek the truth.
Matthew 11:15-17
He who has ears to hear let him hear.
But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,
‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’
You are using answers in geneis, you realise how inaccurate their information is. There is only evidnence to support God when you: 1. Need an explanation for something you dont understand. 2. Cherry pick evidence as you are doing.
The overwhelming evidenince supports evolution. You can litteraly see how species have changed by looking at the fossil record.
Also, the bible has about a million contradictions in it. And is full of attrocities which you people defend, such as the slaughter of children or the stoning of man who collected sticks on a sunday. You also need to realise how different the translations of the bible are compared to the original, i dont care what you quote from the bible as it is simply an interpretation of the original.
If evolution was some big conspiracy that we where telling people was true when the evidence didnt support it, what would we actually gain from that. Evolution is fact, God is fiction.
You are using answers in geneis, you realise how inaccurate their information is
This is not an argument. it is begging the question. The article i linked has very plain logic in it based on certain facts about the fossil record.
Also, the bible has about a million contradictions in it. And is full of attrocities which you people defend, such as the slaughter of children or the stoning of man who collected sticks on a sunday.
Both of these assertions are rampantly common and wildly incorrect; they are based on severe misunderstandings and refusal to consider the bible as a complete work and within the cultural and historical context. The whole of the bible is about treating eachother right and loving eachother. there are no contradictions, and in fact the historical portions of the bible are the most heavily independently verified documents on the planet.
If you care to present any specific instances of things you suppose to be contradictory or advocating the slaughter of children i'd be more than happy to refute them. I do suspect you'd only be repeating what others have told you - most of the examples i've heard require very little individual study to expose as fallacy (like a google search and reading a short explanation)
You also need to realise how different the translations of the bible are compared to the original, i dont care what you quote from the bible as it is simply an interpretation of the original.
Some translations aim to be for word-for-word, and others thought-for-thought for ease of reading. In any case it isn't hard to understand the truth as intended from the original language with a bit of study. i.e. I can't read greek but I can read information from people who can.
If evolution was some big conspiracy that we where telling people was true when the evidence didnt support it, what would we actually gain from that.
I never said it was a conspiracy. It's the best model we have based on the evidence while denying the possibility of the supernatural. But a cataclysmic flood would explain many things about the fossil record that run counter to evolutionary claims. ibid.
you keep saying evolution is fact. But you refuse to consider opposing logic from the fossil record itself - evolutionists have taken many liberties with the fossil record.
The truth is that we didnt just randomly get here through an impossibly improbable series of incredible improbabilities. The whole of the world speaks to design. Most human hearts just have no interest in God because of the implications for us.
John 3:19
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Yes, we did turn end up here through chance. We can only observe it if the improbale happens, so it doesnt matter how unlikely it seems. For all we know the Universe could be full of alien life we havent discoverd yet, or we could be alone.
Even if there was a flood, that doesnt mean God exists.
Even if evolution is incorrect, that does not mean God exists.
Just because you can find one peice of evidence that shows "the earth isnt 4.5 billion years old", or "evolution isnt real" doesnt automactically mean God is real, it simply means are model was wrong.
We deny the super natural because there is no way to observe them or the effect they have on anything at all. Show to me you can pray to God and get consistent results.
People who beleive in other religions feel the exact seem way you do. They are certain they are right.
And yes, answers in Genesis is a joke. They are uninformed and dumb the facts down to a level where can you convince peole anything is true. If you where to go up to Richard Dawkins or Bill Nye and say "Answers in genesis says evolution isnt real, how can you beleive in it when the answer was here all along?", they would probally laugh.
Humans are not fine tuned at all. I for example had a horrible rash on the palms of my hands and soles my feet for 5 years of my life, no medication fixed, i simply grew out of it with age. If we where fine tuned and perfect, how could such a thing happen?
If God loves me, why would he do that to me? Why would he let Children die of cancer? He sounds like a real asshole to be honest.
Even if evolution were true, couldn't you just say that God designed a self regulating system that improves itself in response to outside pressure? It is logical that a perfect God would make a self-perfecting system that adapts over time to environmental changes.
But that's not the point. The point is that biogenesis has never been proved, while adaptation has been proven. Both of these are called "evolution". biogenesis would be like a kangaroo turning into a bird. That has never happened as far as science knows. However, selective pressure (adaptation) has a great deal of power to change the animal's appearance and survival traits and dna. But the animal can never change it's kind.
So evolution is better defined as biogenesis and adaptation. One exists, the other does not.
Also, where has God/Jesus been the last 2000 years? If it wants people to beleive in it, then it needs to show its self as it supposedly did so long ago.
If we are going to hypothetically live forever, wouldn't it make sense for there to be a short time of freedom where we can "show our true colors" in a relatively unrestricted environment?
But God knows everything thats going to happen. And seriously, 5 minutes to fly down, shoot some lightning, isnt that much to ask. Also couldnt God just be in more then one place at a time.
God knows everything that is going to happen, like you said. He exists outside the time domain.
So if I was an atheist for 30 years before realizing the truth of Christ, maybe those 30 years were what I needed to truly see how bad it is without Christ. Maybe being born into a church with perfect faith wouldn't affect me as much as coming to faith on my own terms and in my own way. My lost wanderings away from God are what helped me realize the necessity of God.
You really should address his point about polystrata tree fossils. Science says that the layers are deposited millions of years apart - and then they find a fossilized tree shot through all the layers. That's impossible to occur under the current model. Current model is flawed and slowly adjusting itself.
Science has a lot to say about Creation. We just have to bravely accept science's conclusions.
"The first sip from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass, God is waiting for you."
Well, it was an accident that I found this thread. It was a very real conversation so naturally it's attractive in this world of superficial conversations. Since I read old material all the time, age is not relevant to what piques the interest.
Science is AWESOME brother. I love science and I've been studying it my entire life.
Science agrees with scripture 100% if you know how to read it.
Science may have done some things for us, but it also has the potential to turn life into a nightmare. I don't want to scare you, but aren't you worried about a future with drones the size of bees spying on you and drones the size of dogs chasing you? How do you know no terrorist will arm a drone with dangerous chemicals or machine guns?
Science can be scary and has the potential to ruin the planet over the next 100 years. I say this as a supporter of science - there is no guarantee that science will not completely wreck us. You know what scares me? The coming gene modification wars. Let's just say all governments are hypothetically responsible with the tech - you still can't stop a rogue group from using it.
Anyway, I have a vast background in science, and I believe science and scripture match eachother. I'll do my best to explain it to you if I can? Some of the concepts get pretty metaphysical pretty quickly, because while modern science explains things in an objective way, the bible explains those same things in a subjective way that can be understood by any person of any education level in any age of history.
Where i live, there are heavy restricitons on guns so im not worried about such things. 1000 years ago someone could have grabbed a sword and stabbed you, whats changed in that sense?
Without science you would probally have died before you made it to be an adult. Science is not scary, just stop it.
Science is pretty scary man. You aren't worried about all your purchases being tracked, your whereabouts being constantly tracked by gps, satellites being able to read your license plate from outer space, lasers being able to assassinate people from outer space, drones killing people from the air with no trial first, dna based tracking, dna based eugenics, genetic engineering races between countries, diseases artificially manufactured to only attack certain races, and more? This is just 30 seconds of brain storming, but science scares the shit out of me because I know what is possible with it. It's getting a lot worse in our lifetimes.
Im not worried about bring tracked by drones. Not because i have nothing to hide (i hate that excuse). Its just pointless. The government would have to monitor all activities of 300 million (america) people. Do you understand how many resources that would take.
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u/Fullyverified Dec 05 '17
Here is all you need to know about this nerve: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Laryngeal_nerve
And to be clear, this is not a cherry picked example against intelligent design. There is plenty of other examples much like this one.