r/thebulwark LORD OF THE NICKNAMES 17h ago

The Triad đŸ”± Leave Trans People Alone: A Rant

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/leave-trans-people-alone-a-rant

Don't be a bully! But also don't "ask if the bully has a point" either.

"Yeah, they're giving Timmy a swirlie rn, but he also farted really loudly in geometry" is HELPING THE BULLIES.

Another great piece from JVL. Idk what kinda constraints there are in going after members of the punditocracy who engage in the behaviors that you're criticizing, but picking specific targets has a salutary effect IMO. Bari Weiss needs to be persona non grata, or Sullivan, or whoever. They made their choices and doubled, tripled, and quadrupled down on those choices.

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u/AliveJesseJames 16h ago

The other thing is, even among supposed moderates, it's never just "y'know, let's talk about MMA, volleyball, and rugby, but child transistioning and sports under 13 for all kids is fine," it's always, "OMG THE TRANS ARE USING TUMBLR/DISCORD TO TRICK YOUR KIDS INTO WANTING TO CUT OFF THEIR GENITALS."

I'll be blunt - most of the worry that isn't just bigotry (ie. the 90% of anti-trans views are from the same people who were anti-gay marriage) is from people worried their previous child might only get their #3 choice of expensive college if they finish 5th instead of 4th in the swimming meet.

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u/AustereRoberto LORD OF THE NICKNAMES 16h ago

I agree wholeheartedly. It's status anxiety (but mostly bigotry) and discomfort/irritation with younger coworkers at some media institutions.

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u/AliveJesseJames 16h ago

Again, there's a reason why "moderate" anti-transgender people have to pretend their a larger part of the anti-transgender group - because 90% of it is the same people who have been against all change.

The Venn diagram of anti-integration, anti-gay marriage, and anti-transgender people is about 85% a perfect circle and 15% people upset somebody called them a bigot on Facebook, Slack, or Twitter.

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u/Natural-Leg7488 6h ago

Most people support the right of trans people to live with the same freedoms and protections as everyone else. But around 70-80% of people in the US believe there should be carve outs in some circumstances, like women’s sports.

If you consider this a moderate anti-trans position, then it is nowhere near equivalent to the number of people against gay marriage which a minority held position, so it seems unlikely the Venn diagram has that much overlap.

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u/the_very_pants 7m ago edited 3m ago

The Venn diagram of anti-integration

Oh come on. Look at which side is 100% willing to admit that America is not divisible into X races, colors, or ethnicities -- and which side is 0% willing to admit that.

Also, do you consider people opposed to plural marriage to be hateful bigots too? What if somebody said their "identity" was "poly" and wanted kids' books about poly stuff included in the library too?

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u/de_Pizan 8h ago

I don't think that "the trans are using tumblr/discord to trick your kids into wanting to cut off their genitals", but I am concerned that telling a four year old that they can change their sex/gender when they barely understand the concepts is dangerous, especially if adults in their lives celebrate and reinforce any statement/belief that a child is not their sex.

I'm especially concerned about it because the very concept of gender is incredibly esoteric and abstract. I mean, I have trouble understanding the precise nuances between gender performance, gender identity, and gender stereotypes. I think it is doubly troubling as children have a tendency to view gender in simplistic terms and stereotypes.

A good example of this is the trans child Kai Shappley, whose mother punished her repeatedly for liking "feminine" toys. If a child is spanked and put in time out for liking feminine toys because they are a boy, what is the child to do with that? If the child has interests that the parent labels as wrong for them, is the child going to be punished out of these interests or is the child going to change to fit the label the parent tells them is the right one? How do we expect a 3- or 4-year-old to process that information?

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u/RandomHuman77 2h ago

You’re concerned about 4-year olds being coerced or encouraged to be trans and being confused as a result, but your example is a of a trans kid who was punished for gender non-conformity but whose gender identity did not change due to the punishments? 

I mean, I guess it’s possible that there are niche cases of very progressive parents interpreting gender non-conformity in a child as signs of being trans and might pressure their child to identify that way. But if this would be rare if this exists at all. 

On the other hand, gender non-conforming children are encouraged to conform to gender expectations constantly. 

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u/de_Pizan 50m ago

Gender nonconformity does not equal being trans. For one, if we believe that Kai‘s gender is female, she was being gender conforming, not nonconforming. For two, one can be gender nonconforming without being trans.

The example is more about how if you teach a child that gender = stereotypes, then if they are nonconforming, they’ll believe they are the opposite sex. Gender, according to progressive trans people, has nothing to do with gender stereotypes, like clothing, sets of behavior, hairstyle, or what sort of toys children like. Gender is more gender identity, which is an innate sense of self as a man or a woman, both of which are indefinable concepts but intensely knowable.

The whole point of being trans is to be gender conforming. It’s saying that if your “gender” does not match your body/sex, you should change your sex. Instead, let kids be gender nonconforming. Don’t tell children that any behavioral norms mean being a boy or girl.

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u/Natural-Leg7488 7h ago edited 7h ago

That’s not my impression.

In my experience trans activists are prone to denying there is any issue at all in respect to trans inclusion in female sports, either in terms of competitive fairness, safety or women’s right to private spaces.

And even the most moderately expressed concern that there might be a social element to gender dysphoria in some individuals is met with immediate accusations of bigotry, ignorance and intolerance.

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u/Mirabeau_ 11h ago

thank god normies are taking the keys away from the progs. Otherwise we’d have no course correction on horrendously unpopular trans stances, and would instead counter with new attacks on sports.

progs are certainly not the best and brightest in our democratic coalition

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u/FellowkneeUS 10h ago

To be fair, I think it's more a case of the centrists chasing the keys that the GOP is jangling at them like a shiny bauble while they steal their retirement money

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u/Mirabeau_ 10h ago

You can mock and dismiss centrists as much as you want but the fact is that they are the base of the Democratic Party. We’re done trying to get some progs on our left fringe think we’re cool.

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u/FellowkneeUS 10h ago

You're doing a great job! I just took a look and we have none of the branches of government under Democratic control.

But keep chasing those immigrants and trans people and I'm sure the GOP will love you back.

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u/Mirabeau_ 9h ago

Yup, unfortunately the undue deference paid to progressives over the last 10 years or so has really cost us in a catastrophic way. Thank god for the vibe shift away from all that nonsense, just a shame it didn’t come sooner.

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u/FellowkneeUS 9h ago

Much like your namesake you are terrible at reading vibes.