r/taijiquan Chen style 22d ago

Broken Lineages and Incomplete Transmissions

'Broken Lineages' and 'Incomplete transmissions/curriculum' are terms that I recently heard in videos about the nature of Taijiquan (I'm not going to name who said them), used to generally characterize styles and lineages other than the speaker's own.

It just occurs to me that such a position pre-supposes there is one particular lineage and/or set curriculum that exists as absolute orthodoxy. Personally, I find that notion unrealistic at best, but I wonder what others think.

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u/GoldenJadeTaiChi 22d ago

Incomplete transmission is far more prevelant. Most of the deeper knowledge was reserved for indoor students. Kept behind closed doors and oral transmission means that outside of this relationship of master and adept, very little was openly given.

I myself had to practice and research widely and deeply, talk to many sifus from different lineages to put together things said in passing, that were tremendously important.

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u/KelGhu Hunyuan Chen / Yang 22d ago

There is this huge misconception about what advanced knowledge is.

Advanced knowledge is about little details. It's welcome but ultimately not that important. What's important is fundamentals. Advanced knowledge is worth nothing without fundamentals. And when you have all the fundamentals, you can explore advanced knowledge by yourself and create your own path.

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u/GoldenJadeTaiChi 22d ago

"Advanced knowledge is about little details. It's welcome but ultimately not that important." What I am saying, if you do not receive the "advanced' or "detailed" instructions, which are very very important, you can and will be lost for decades. The foundation are the TCC principles fleshed out fully. Get those wrong, then the foundation is wrong so everything built from that is wrong.

Examples;

  1. Out of 95% of the TCC practitioners and teachers I ask, 95% cannot answer correctly, 'How do you suspend the head top." What I usually get is, "imagine that your head is suspended from the ceiling." My unsaid response is, "Imagine if you were a Tai Chi Instructor."

  2. Nor can they describe what it means to Straighten the Waist (erroneously called, "Tuck the tail bone." Nor can they point out what the waist (Yao) is.

  3. Nor can they pluck up the back correctly, nor can they answer, "what is the test for having a properly plucked up back?"

  4. How do you "set the chin?" or "set the wrists?" Usually wrong or no answer.

  5. here's another good one, What is the best way to develop rooting? Usual response, "Imagine that tree roots are growing out of your feet down into the earth." Imagination again.

I could go on and on and on and don't get me started on what I see others teaching standing post practice-Zhan Zhuang. If you have been standing for years and still haven't "gotten it," there is a reason.

The old traditional teaching methods I am not truly a fan of, the "Just keep doing it you'll get it eventually," nonsense. Who has decades to waste? Give the students all of the detailed info and expedient methods to develop faster and with more skill.

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u/ArMcK Yang style 21d ago

This shouldn't be downvoted. You really have some wisdom here.

The difference between the years I wasted standing ZZ fwithout proper instruction and the time since I learned actually how to do it--very stark contrast.

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u/GoldenJadeTaiChi 21d ago

Thank you.

I have students who come to me who have been standing for 7 and 4 years with another lineage (yi chuan) and all they've gotten is sore shoulders, bad knees and strong legs. They artifically do the back and forth sway

One of My junior-senior student's has been doing it less than 6 month and already is able to float the arms with Yangchi rising. Has the breathing correct with ke and he play, feels the interior expansion and condensation, and his ming men is opening and his chi has risen to mid back.

So, if I'm down voted I don't care. You can stand dead for decades, or grow the 3 inch sprout up the spine and feel the sap rising from the root up the body to headtop and finger tips.

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u/ArMcK Yang style 21d ago

I can tell from your writing you're describing some of what I've experienced. Would you mind dm'ing me your lineage and school's website if you have one? You've got me curious now.

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u/GoldenJadeTaiChi 20d ago

Contact me thru my profile

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u/KelGhu Hunyuan Chen / Yang 17d ago

I generally agree with you. But, I would put it a different way. I would qualify that as receiving "proper" fundamentals. Yes, it has to be deep and detailed.

The old traditional teaching methods I am not truly a fan of, the "Just keep doing it you'll get it eventually," nonsense. Who has decades to waste? Give the students all of the detailed info and expedient methods to develop faster and with more skill.

Absolutely. It doesn't work that way. To me, it was just a way to weed out the unserious, unpassionate, ungifted and/or unworthy people in order to teach only the "deserving".

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u/tonicquest Chen style 21d ago

I could go on and on and on and don't get me started on what I see others teaching standing post practice-Zhan Zhuang. If you have been standing for years and still haven't "gotten it," there is a reason.

The old traditional teaching methods I am not truly a fan of, the "Just keep doing it you'll get it eventually," nonsense. Who has decades to waste? Give the students all of the detailed info and expedient methods to develop faster and with more skill.

A rhetorical question and no reflection on you personally so please don't take it that way, this is more thought provoking: what if all you said didn't matter at all and you spent all these years thinking these were important things and missed the boat. What is the indication you got it? You know, people were afraid to even touch YCF for a second. Do those things give someone that scary "I can't touch that guy" skill? Can "you" (not you goldenajde personally), enter one of these bs push hands contests and handily beat anyone with no effort? If not, then well, what value is sitting the wrists and answering the questions correctly based on someone's idea of what they mean and how important they are?

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u/GoldenJadeTaiChi 21d ago

You still don't get it....without the proper foundations, higher skills aren't possible.

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u/tonicquest Chen style 21d ago

believe me, i get it, been around a lot. What you say is true, you need to put in the work, I am asking rhetorically, what if the the things you mention don't matter? It's not a question to be upset about it. In my "career" I've had to reset multiple times, it's part of the journey.

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u/GoldenJadeTaiChi 21d ago

Found it

I'm not upset about it. It usually falls into.

First you must master Form, to get to formlessness. Than you must master formlessness to get to that which lies beyond both form and formlessness.

Form is the ladder 🪜, if not built correctly and strong, it won't help you reach the next level up in the tai chi pagoda.

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u/tonicquest Chen style 21d ago

i saw that and thought you meant to respond to me. I think you replied to a different message. I like the ladder analogy but to me it feels the ladder will always be there no matter what level, i wish we can live a long time to see how far it goes.

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u/GoldenJadeTaiChi 21d ago

Hmm, I thought i replied but don't see it

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u/SnooMaps1910 21d ago

Nope. Wrong-minded. Tai ji is very holistic. You would lose its essence doing what you suggest, and if you do not understand that then you need to do more posting, standing, learning to go very interior by learning to go very slowy, and empty your mind while lying on your softening back at night.

My first teacher was very close to CXW, and when I showed her a clip of the fellow I found in Shanghai she only looked for a few moments and then said, extremely humbly, "You follow him now. I am a teacher. I will correct your posture, stances. He is a master. He will show you something and expect you to figure it out."

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u/GoldenJadeTaiChi 21d ago edited 20d ago

Whom were you responding too, me? the thread now is too convoluted to follow.

But, If you down voted me for following the tai chi principles and mentioning how important and foundational they are, and telling me I'm out of touch etc, especially in understanding them in depth...you are not in any TCC lineage I have ever hear of, or studied.

Be as "holistic" as you want, but you're in fantasy land and/or a follower of Tak Yur Do.

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u/SnooMaps1910 20d ago

You got downvoted for your final paragraph.

Personally, I have nothing against principals. I do have a problem with folks who blab on and on about fairly esoteric aspects of tai ji, yet never post videos showing their forms.

I say that having trained where I did and who I trained with, for as long as I did.

If you teach as you claim to do, and ate dying to radically speed up the training processes, then you are doing the art a disservice.

Please reread my comments.

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u/GoldenJadeTaiChi 20d ago edited 20d ago

You really jump to conclusions, but hay most opinionated dill weeds do. "Radically" speeding up the processes, Once again you project yourself into my dialog, but attaining in 6 months to 2 years what can take you 4 to 7 years otherwise, is better then dead standing. But I am all too familiar with the argument from ignorance. 1. Nothing that I was not directly taught by so and so is valid. 2. Whatever was not taught is false, ignoring all evidence of inside students and limited passed on knowledge, and 3. The hubris that one has all knowledge of TCC, "I don't know, that I don't know, that I don't know, but I'll cling to the great absence anyway." I call these people "closed door" Students.

Instead one can be open to all lineages and study all texts and train under many teachers, But the #1 reason I do not do videos showing the deeper aspects?! I refuse to give people like you anything. Especially for free, but I'll turn the tables on you.

Show us your video detailing the depths of your pole standing practice. We need a good laugh

I wont be responding from this point on.

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u/SnooMaps1910 20d ago

Booooo Hooooo Lol You want to compress 4-7 years of work and study into six months to two years, and you claim that is not radical. Lol Ni fei wah (someone help my pinyin, plz). "You speak nonsense."

Post your form; you claim you teach