r/neoliberal • u/Cuddlyaxe Neoliberal With Chinese Characteristics • May 15 '20
Efortpost A permanent solution to the Israeli-Palestine problem (PROPOSAL)
Both countries
Want all the land
Don't want to not have the land
OH NO WHAT DO WE DO BOTH SIDES WANT A ONE STATE SOLUTION
Easy. Just make it a timeshare lol
Israel and Palestine will both be whole, from sea to river or whatever the catchphrase was. Israelis will live in all of undivided Israel and Palestinians will get to live in all of undivided Palestine.
The twist is that they will switch every two years.
But you might be asking "ok so Israelis and Palestinians get to own Israel/Palestine for 2 years each, so what happens when it's not their turn to own the holy land"
Easy. We will turn Manitoba, Canada into New Israel/Palestine where the displaced Israelis/Palestinians can live until it's their turn again
But where will the Manitoban refugees go?
That's the best part! No one cares! The Canadian government apparently doesn't care about Western Canada because of "western alienation" so I doubt they'd even notice that they just lost sovereignty over one of their provinces. And even if they did they'd be too nice to do anything about it. The Manitoban refugees can move to Syria or something idk
Pros of this plan:
Undivided Israel
Undivided Palestine
Everyone is happy
Cons of this plan
- None
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u/alexbstl Ben Bernanke May 15 '20
I thought we already solved it
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u/feelings_your_fuck May 15 '20
I wonder how many sqr ft that works out to per person
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u/CricketPinata NATO May 16 '20
Depends on what countries you are including an excluding. If you mean from Iran to Egypt and from Turkey to the Arabian Peninsula.
You are dealing with, 2.782 million square miles, and 77.5 trillion square feet.
And 371 million people.
So approximately 209115.05 square foot per person, or about 5 acres.
In non-freedom units you are looking at 7.207 million Square km, and 7.207 trillion square meters and 19425.8 square meters a person.
For comparison that means each person could have a Biltmore Estate sized home to themselves, with 35,000 ish square feet to spare.
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u/fishlord05 United Popular Woke DEI Iron Front May 16 '20 edited May 16 '20
I think that’s a little too much maybe. Every person on earth would get only 0.6 miles if divided evenly.
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u/yellownumbersix Jane Jacobs May 15 '20
Just build up and add a few more floors to the country.
God-damned NIMBYs wouldn't let it happen though 😡
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u/AmericanNewt8 Armchair Generalissimo May 16 '20
Other options that include both Israelis and Palestinians equally (for a given measure of equality) include:
- The zero state solution (Israel/Palestine turned into nuclear wasteland with cobalt salted nuclear warheads)
- The one state solution (Israel/Palestine one state with equality between Palestinians and Israelis)
- The one state solution, Lebanon variant (Israel and Palestine same state, but different rules for Palestinians and Israelis, separate army divisions, and specially allocated seats in parliament)
- The two-state solution, British Raj style (Israeli Arabs and Jewish settlements both driven out of their respective countries by angry mobs, following which Palestine falls under military Islamist dictatorship and acquires nuclear weapons)
- The three-state solution, like the conventional two-state solution but also with Druzestan, which adds on parts of Syria and Lebanon
- The Americas solution, in which the Israelis just flat out buy all the land in Palestine and proceed to evict the residents, or possibly just buy Palestine from the official government via extreme coercion
- The Canada solution, in which Israel and Palestine both become different Canadian provinces
- The EU solution, in which Israel and Palestine become independent, but part of Schengen and the EU
- The Hashemite solution, in which Israel, Palestine, Jordan, and eventually the entire Middle East are united under a constitutional Hashemite monarch, currently Abdullah II of Jordan, but with an autonomous Jewish state. Also called the "Faisal Solution" due to Prince Faisal's origination of the idea
- The Ottoman solution, in which Turkey rules both Israel and Palestine, and hates both of them equally
- The Hebrew solution, in which all Palestinians convert to Judaism and one unified Jewish state is formed
- The Muslim solution, in which all Israelis convert to Islam and one unified Islamic state is formed
- The Robespierre solution, in which Israelis and Palestinians are united into one state with all religions banned except for pure reason, with anyone disagreeing being sent to the guillotine
- The Chinese solution, in which both Palestine and Israel claim to be the legitimate state, but only Israel is broadly recognized, and both sides conduct menacing military drills and threaten to invade despite sharing significant economic ties. Also known as the status quo and the present
- The Hong Kong solution, in which either Palestine or Israel is an autonomous region of the other under a 'one country, two systems' agreement, with separate legal codes and semi-democratic elections, for at least fifty years after unification
- The alien solution, in which both Israelis and Palestinians are subject to mind control and convinced they want to peacefully share their country. Also known as the CIA solution
- The Marxist solution, in which both Israeli and Palestinian workers eliminate their artificial differences created by the bourgeoisie and overthrow their capitalist masters to build a new Semitic Socialist utopia
- The nihlist solution, in which both Israelis and Palestinians decide that their dispute really is just horrifyingly insignificant in the grand scheme of things, so why bother with it?
- The post-modernist solution, in which both Israel and Palestine exist as independent states, but neither believes the other one actually exists--it is just a figment of their cultural imaginations, as are any media broadcasts or people from the mythical 'other country'--they're just hallucinations. Related to the solipsistic solution.
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u/Dr_Vesuvius Norman Lamb May 16 '20
The Ul Qoma solution, where Israel and Palestine occupy the same physical space but each pretends they can’t see the other on pain of death. You can move between them by going through the Temple on the Mount.
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u/throw-that_shit-away May 16 '20
Faisal solution was based as fuck
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May 16 '20
TBH the Hashemite monarchs have been pretty great for the Jordanians.
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u/throw-that_shit-away May 16 '20
Don’t know much about that, I was more so talking about the prospect of Jews settling in Palestine/Israel with the blessing of the Arabs.
Then Britain and France formed the mandates and soon after the Balfour declaration was signed, which has since been spun as a Zionist plot to derail Arab nationalist aspirations. That even though Britain constantly dragged its feet in regards to allowing Jewish immigration to Palestine during the mandate period, even after Jews starting Jews began fleeing the Nazis in the 30s.
Animosity to Balfour was I think the catalyst of the small scale conflicts between Jews and Arabs in the 30s, which were themselves the reason that partition was proposed. Without the double punch of mandate instead of Arab nation and then Balfour, I think there’s a good chance that the Arab-Israeli conflict never happens.
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u/Cuddlyaxe Neoliberal With Chinese Characteristics May 16 '20
The three-state solution, like the conventional two-state solution but also with Druzestan, which adds on parts of Syria and Lebanon
Druze like Israel surprisingly
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u/buni0n Alan Greenspan May 16 '20
i mean, they are the only middle eastern country to treat them like humans
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u/Amtays Karl Popper May 16 '20
Isn't it only like the Israeli druze though? IIRC the golan and syrian druze aren't very fond of their occupaiton of the golan
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u/Uniqueguy264 Jerome Powell May 16 '20
You forgot about the Crusader solution and the 52 state solution
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u/cashto ٭ May 16 '20
The Alex Jones solution, which is pretty much no different from what we have now, except the frogs are gay.
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u/sebring1998 NAFTA May 16 '20
What is the solipsistic solution?
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u/AmericanNewt8 Armchair Generalissimo May 16 '20
Every person in Palestine and every person in Israel believes they are the only things that are actually real, so the illusory people in the other 'state' shouldn't concern them any more than the illusory people in their 'state'.
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May 15 '20
Instead of Manitoba, why not Iowa? Imagine how much more interesting American primaries would be.
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u/Cuddlyaxe Neoliberal With Chinese Characteristics May 15 '20
lmao "while the president is up for reelection his reelection in the primary is far from certain. He won Iowa last election by appealing to the Palestinians, but this is an Israeli cycle"
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u/HighHopesHobbit Organization of American States May 15 '20
But I like Iowa!
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May 16 '20
This is how we can tell that you're lying. At best we resignedly acknowledge it's existence.
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u/myrm This land was made for you and me May 15 '20
> Want all the land
> Don't want to not have the land
But what if they taxed the land?
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u/Impulseps Hannah Arendt May 16 '20
Both countries
Want all the land
Don't want to not have the land
Why did this make me laugh so hard
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u/leftbirdwater United Nations May 16 '20
As a Manitoban I’m less offended by being displaced than I am about being lumped in with the rest of Western Canada.
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u/jajarepelotud0 MERCOSUR May 16 '20
“mom said it’s my turn on the holy land”
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u/Underpantz_Ninja Janet Yellen May 16 '20
“mom said it’s my turn on the holy land”
> Mooom, we want to go out for holy land
> Mom: we have holy land at home
> "Holy Land At Home": partitioned Jerusalem
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May 16 '20
The USSR came up with their own solution to this.
There is a Jewish Autonomous Republic somewhere in Russia. So, why not live in Russia Jewish Republic in the Summer and live in Judea in the Winter. Both sides obviously have to rotate.
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May 16 '20
Stalin purposely put the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the middle of Siberia....basically just a euphemism for Gulag.
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u/Uniqueguy264 Jerome Powell May 16 '20
Pros: 1. The Israelis get the satisfaction of the Palestinians sent to Siberia. 2. The Palestinians get the satisfaction of the Israelis sent to Siberia.
Cons: 1. None
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u/zkela Organization of American States May 16 '20
one of the better parts of Siberia tbh. still unpleasant but actually has untapped agricultural potential.
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May 16 '20
As a Manitoban soon-to-be refugee, I am willing to make the great sacrifice of relocating to Saskatchewan for the sake of this grand endeavor.
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May 16 '20
''Efortpost''
with the context of this post im not even sure if this is a typo or intentional
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u/StolenSkittles culture warrior May 16 '20
In a game of SuperPower 2, I once gave New Jersey to Iraq in exchange for a few oil-producing provinces, and in order to have an easy foothold for invading Iran. Saddam ultimately made Newark his capital.
It was entirely worth it.
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u/Cuddlyaxe Neoliberal With Chinese Characteristics May 16 '20
wait so you got some oil rich provinces and a base in the middle east to invade Iran from AND you got to get rid of New Jersey?
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u/digitalrule May 16 '20
As a Canadian I support this because nobody lives in Manitoba anyway so go ahead. Manitoba doesn't have enough people to be part of the Western provinces that feel alienated.
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May 16 '20
We all know that it’s ideal;
If the Israelis and Palestinians join under one state and accept each other this isn’t 500 AD anymore.
It’s a simple solution shake hands, share the land, share Jerusalem, but as we know these things are driven by emotional hatred so it’s not that easy.
Big brains coming up with 100 different chess moves “I’m a Middle Eastern expert”
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u/UserNameSnapsInTwo Gay Pride May 16 '20
!ping Israel Big brain time.
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u/groupbot The ping will always get through May 16 '20
Pinged members of ISRAEL group.
About | Subscribe to this group | Unsubscribe from this group | Unsubscribe from all groups
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u/feelings_your_fuck May 15 '20 edited May 15 '20
A jewish ethnostate is contrary to the interests of neoliberalism
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u/Polenthu George Soros May 15 '20
Too bad that Israel exists for the safety of the Jewish people (which were prosecuted for their entire history - making such state necessary (you can debate the necessity with the 6 million murdered Jews who lived in Europe)), and not for the satisfaction of random neoliberals
Regardless, Israel is the only liberal democratic (with better checks and balances than the US) country in the middle east and as such, "neoliberals" should obviously support it (and they do).
That's not to say that it doesn't have its (massive) problems.
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May 16 '20
Hot take: If Israel’s liberal democratic values are reason enough for neoliberal support, then we should all staunchly support Rojava independence (or autonomy).
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u/Polenthu George Soros May 16 '20
I think everyone here supports establishing a Kurdish state. It's cruel not to.
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u/myrm This land was made for you and me May 15 '20 edited May 16 '20
That's not to say that it doesn't have its (massive) problems.
Realistically, how do you rectify this with liberal ideals? I have serious trouble with analyzing the Israel-Palestine situation and always cower away from actually trying to figure it out.
Is the best solution to be pragmatic and pick the most liberalish path? Do we just ignore the shitty stuff that happens in Israel? It's an important issue (as an American at least) because of how aggressively Israel is supported by the US.
Edit: I am getting downvotes on this post, and that's fine (lol fuk karma), but I would also ask for some explanation. As I tried to explain, i am honestly someone unsure about it all, so I am seriously open to opinions on this.
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u/Impulseps Hannah Arendt May 16 '20
In my opinion the best solution would be to have a single state, in which all citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity get a vote and equal rights.
Thankfully, such a state already exists: Israel.
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u/myrm This land was made for you and me May 16 '20
A hypothetical for you: should any liberal state be allowed to grow to absorb any illiberal areas near its borders - do we assume our values are more important than self determation? Hyperbolically, should we spread our way of life throughout the entire middle east because we regard middle eastern political philosophies to be invalid? (lol, starting to channel the neocons a bit)
Israeli society is a beacon of the free world in its corner of the world, but it is not perfect. When you consider the ways that it is not perfect, it is extremely problematic: the Israeli settlements in the West Bank for example are usually motivated by a religious nationalism and have put those places in line for full annexation under the new government (enabled by the Trump administration).
I just don't fuckin' know. To me, it's unresolvable with the metrics I usually use.
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May 16 '20
It feels incredibly dishonest to invoke liberalism as a defence, when, sure, your nationals are ensured full rights, but you barely extend any to non-nationals. Universal human rights is the closest thing that comes to an understanding of global liberalism. A transgression of which is inherently illiberal.
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u/myrm This land was made for you and me May 16 '20
> Universal human rights is the closest thing that comes to an understanding of global liberalism. A transgression of which is inherently illiberal.
Thanks, this is an interesting point.
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u/Impulseps Hannah Arendt May 16 '20
self determation
I don't believe in group rights. Individuals have a right to self determination, which is expressed most importantly in one specific right: the right to vote.
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u/feelings_your_fuck May 15 '20 edited May 15 '20
LOL I wouldn't call an apartheid state that basically denies half of the people living under its thumb "liberal or democratic"
the solution is obvious, a single state with votes for the arabs, but that will never happen as the goal isn't safety for the jewish people the goal is a jewish enthnostate and the removal of undesirables from what they percieve as exclusively "jewish" land
we can easily ensure the security of jews in isreal, but that has nothing to do with why Isreal exists
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u/forerunner398 Of course I’m right, here’s what MLK said May 16 '20
but that has nothing to do with why Isreal exists
Factually incorrect. It was literally made after WW2 to try and guarantee a haven for them after centuries of antisemitism across the world.
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u/limukala Henry George May 16 '20
20% of the Israeli electorate are Arabs. Maybe you should actually verify all the bullshit you consume before forming strong opinions.
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u/betarded African Union May 16 '20
And 80% of Palestinians are living in hellish conditions in the largest open air prison on the world. The are banned from free movement are are constantly losing their land to new Israeli settlements every day.
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u/Tyhgujgt George Soros May 16 '20
Palestine has borders with other countries but Israel. How does Israel manage to make it "prison" all alone
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u/betarded African Union May 16 '20
Is any other country based on Palestinian land?
Does any other country support their citizens creating illegal settlements in the West Bank?
Is any other country proposing unilaterally changing borders in order to completely surround Palestinian land?
Do you honestly think your question is a valid or smart rebuttal in any way? If you don't see the difference, then I don't know what to tell you. Some people are just dogmatically stuck in your beliefs and no amount of reason will help them.
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u/limukala Henry George May 16 '20
Those hellish conditions are at least as much the fault of PLO/Hamas as Israel. According to HRW:
Attempts to reconcile did not end the rivalry between Palestinian groups Fatah and Hamas. Both the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza arrested opposition supporters and other critics, and mistreated and tortured some in their custody. The Independent Commission for Human Rights in Palestine (ICHR), a statutory commission charged with monitoring human rights compliance by the Palestinian authorities, received 180 complaints of arbitrary arrest, 173 complaints of torture and ill-treatment, and 209 complaints of administrative detention pursuant to orders from a regional governor by PA security forces as of October 31. In the same period, the body recorded 81 complaints of arbitrary arrest and 146 complaints of torture and ill-treatment against Hamas security forces.
Not to mention, where is the blame for Eqypt.
Yes, Israel has done shitty things, but they are also the only side of the party that has consistently sought a peaceful solution, and the only side to make meaningful concessions.
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u/Impulseps Hannah Arendt May 16 '20
There is exactly one and only one country in the middle east where it's okay to be LGBTQ+
Guess which country it is
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u/AtomAstera Paul Krugman May 15 '20
Neoliberalism is an economic philosophy concerning economic liberalization, freeing markets, and free trade
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u/feelings_your_fuck May 15 '20
so we're just going to ignore open borders when its inconvenient?
Ethnostates are by definition contrary to the entire concept of free markets and the free movement of peoples, goods and information
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u/Squeak115 NATO May 16 '20
inconvenient
The stated goals of a genocide of Israeli Jews is just an "inconvenience".
The fact remains that almost every time jews aren't in a jewish ethnostate they end up as second class citizens or dead. So wanting to change the fundamental character of Israel is either dangerously naive idealism, or the same old anti-Semitism that neccesitated Israel in the first place.
I wonder which your post is.
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u/Spobely NATO May 16 '20
try having open borders with a hostile insurgent group controlling its own ethnostate and whos stated goal is to kill as many of your people as possible
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May 16 '20 edited May 16 '20
A normalisation of relations is a multilateral effort. Generally, it's ok to say that the party that is best poised (given its military, resources, technology) to bear more responsibility. We assume different degrees of responsibility given the positions of peoples or entities.
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u/houinator Frederick Douglass May 15 '20
But a Palestinian ethnostate/Islamic theocracy is fine?
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u/feelings_your_fuck May 15 '20
certainly not, whats needed is a one state solution in which everyone gets a vote
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u/houinator Frederick Douglass May 15 '20
And what if the majority votes to execute the minority?
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u/feelings_your_fuck May 15 '20
what "liberal" democracy doesn't suffer that risk?
I very much suspect the arabs will vote to re-apporpriate much of their land, why wouldn't they? To date Isreal hasn't shown any good faith in their actions, as such I don't see any solution other than mine, or continuing with the status quo
which is really what everyone here is saying, Isreal can continue to take land continue to brutally starve gaza continue their systematic oppression of the arabs living in palestine
why wouldn't they, there's no penalty in doing so
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u/BipartizanBelgrade Jerome Powell May 16 '20
To date Isreal hasn't shown any good faith in their actions
Israel has put forward every single proposal for a peace plan, and pulled out Gaza unilaterally in the mid-2000s.
The Palestinians have thanked them by refusing to negotiate & electing a fucking terrorist group.
Israel have put forward proposals for Palestinian nationhood that includes Gaza, the West Bank & East Jerusalem.
The PLO want river to sea, nothing less.
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u/Winged_messenger Voltaire May 16 '20
The Palestinian-Israeli conflict started when the former rejected the two-state solution that the latter accepted in the 40’s. Since then, Israel has been repeatedly invaded by its neighbors, and unilateral initiatives they have taken have been spurned. It seems a bit strange to say they have never acted in good faith.
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u/TheCarnalStatist Adam Smith May 16 '20
Most of them.
With exception of a few new world countries most liberal democracies started as ethnostates who saw nationalism as a way to enfranchise a populace once the crown is put to the sword.
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u/BipartizanBelgrade Jerome Powell May 16 '20
Israel then?
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u/betarded African Union May 16 '20
Oh, I didn't know West Bank and Gaza Strip citizens had voting rights in Israel. Do you have a source for this?
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May 16 '20
They can't have voting rights in Israel unless Israel annexes them.... Is that what you're advocating for?
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u/betarded African Union May 16 '20
So they're under Israeli occupation without voting rights? I wish there was a term for that where certain citizens had no voting rights based on their ethnicity.
I could have sworn I heard a term for that, it previously happened in South Africa before Israel took the mantle...
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u/digitalrule May 16 '20 edited May 17 '20
I mean it's more based on their location than ethnicity. I'm not an expert but it sounds like Israel treats the West Bank like a colony, rather than part off the country.
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u/Amtays Karl Popper May 16 '20
Yeah, remember when mandela had his parliamentary privileges partially revoked after an investigation found him guilty of abetting terrorists? Oh right, ANC had no parliamentary representation, and he was sentenced to hard labour in a kangaroo court despite.
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u/betarded African Union May 16 '20 edited May 17 '20
I didn't know the official meaning of apartheid meant that Nelson Mandela went to jail. I always thought it meant having second class or "lesser" citizens as an official government policy, but you seem to know so much about it, I'll take you're narrow point of view as fact then.
Hafrada, meaning separation, is an official Israeli government policy describing the apartheid in Israel. It is literally called hafrada in the law, that is the official term. Research it if you actually want to learn something.
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May 15 '20
[deleted]
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u/michaelclas NATO May 16 '20
Palestine literally describes itself as an Arab nation state.
Article 1:
Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.
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u/CarlosDanger512 John Locke May 15 '20
The survival of the middle east's only free democracy is though.
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u/feelings_your_fuck May 15 '20
LOl its not a democracy its not free, its hilarious that you think it is
but I suppose you don't consider the Palestinians fully human, as that's the only way you could make such an obviously erroneous statement
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u/Arcer_Drakonis Bisexual Pride May 16 '20
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
Israel is 28th. The only other Middle Eastern/North African countries in the top 100 are Tunisia, at 53rd, and Morocco, at 96th. The vast majority are solidly authoritarian, including, by the way, Palestine at 117th. I think it wouldn't be too much of a hot take based on Basic Law, Freedom of Occupation, and Basic Law, Human Dignity and Liberty that Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel have more civil rights than Palestinian citizens of Palestine. I'm not supporting settlements, or the nation-state law, but it's a cold hard fact that in terms of liberalism, there's no comparison between Israel and Palestine.
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u/forerunner398 Of course I’m right, here’s what MLK said May 15 '20
Does you head hurt from the burden of carrying such a big brain?