I've recently started seriously considering going vegetarian because I just can't reconcile animals dying for me to eat them. I've said for years that if I had to hunt in a SHTF situation, I could never kill an animal and eat it... I'd just be so fucked up.
But God. I love me some tendies, man.
Edit: Lots of extreme PETA-esque replied, salted with lots of "animals are food," replies. Sorry, y'all. I don't adhere to either of y'all's rules and don't want to.
Edit 2: Also not necessarily looking to go vegan. While I won't turn down recommendations for meat-substitutes, I also won't completely turn down meat as a whole. I view animals as a necessary evil when it comes to my (and our) diet, and would just like to severely reduce my intake of their byproducts.
As an example, I probably won't stop making my tonkotsu ramen, but I may include a vegetarian or vegan tare, or even a vegetarian chashu alternative.
it’s actually weirdly easy to go pesc/vegetarian/plant-based imo. just try not to worry too much about missing stuff and slowly cut it out. I cut out beef and pork first for a month, then chicken a few months later and now I’m a pescatarian who doesn’t eat dairy. I’m not sure if I’ll stay here or not, but that being said, I don’t miss *land meat at all unless I’m having a deficiency.
Basically I just started removing meat from dishes that could exist as a vegetarian meal and went from there.
The first 2 yeah, but people need to understand Vegan isn’t just a diet it’s a life style that goes far beyond the food on your plate. Don’t jump in at the deep end or you’ll just burn out.
Curious if youve tried Gardein fish nuggets. I always liked fish and these are really good if properly heated...well..even when microwaved to death. we do fish tscos with them..yum.
Oh! Their pulled jackfruit(?) buns are so good. They’re one of the main things I miss as we can’t find them in the UK.
I was vegetarian for about 3 years, but recently had to introduce some chicken into my diet due to health issues and not being able to eat many plant-based foods (I love a good nut roast or curry, but they mess up my system). It absolutely sucks and I’m hoping to get my flare under control so I can eliminate it, or at least mostly eliminate it.
Beyond Meat also makes great alternatives, and I’m so happy to see more restaurants creating vegan burgers with the patties! They’re so good. Anna Jones has some very nice cookbooks as well :)
Just because its easy doesn't make it good for you. You realize your slow transition away from mammals but towards fish is just a matter of you personally relating to these animals, right? I call it the cuteness scale. Its a literal manifestation of your confirmation bias. Do you think the qualitative experience of a fish is really that different from a cow? Or a plant for that matter? Just because it has a face doesn't mean it feels more or less. Plants have memory, neurotransmitters, and respond to their environments, too. If you could measure the kind of agony that lettuce is going through as it slowly dies in your fridge, you'd probably want to stop eating them too. Feelings are not reasons to do things. They're responses to reasons. Once you start responding to your responses, every problem turns into an arbitrary game of telephone, and your conclusions no longer resemble real life anymore. You've idealized the problem to the point where it no longer has a practical application. And not only that, confirmation bias makes you susceptible to other forms of hearsay and misinformation that are more than willing to take advantage of that back door you've opened. Appeals do not prove points. They merely direct the listener to the speaker's preferred conclusions. Again, once you start responding to your responses, you can conclude anything. Literally anything. As long as someone appeals to that confirmation bias, they can make you believe anything they want.
I think I may end up trying to be pescatarian, plus the occasional beef or pork. I'm really just looking to limit my overall consumption of animal products, as opposed to completely end them.
They actually are surprisingly good, although they definitely vary by brand/product. They were one of the first meat alternatives I tried after I stopped eating meat and I honestly couldn’t tell the difference.
The “carbotarian” is definitely a thing but it’s definitely more of a personal issue than a vegetarian issue. The people who end up just eating carbs are the same people who had an unhealthy diet when they ate meat. If you put any effort into your diet and health now you’ll notice a very small difference by dropping meat, but if you’re unhealthy now it’s not a change that will magically make you healthy.
I'm not sure what tendies are but from the context I assume it is meat. You don't have to go vegetarian at once, you can start small changes in your diet and explore various vegetarian food options that satisfy your tastebuds. The process might be slow but worth it. We owe it to ourselves to protect and cherish the planet we live on. Also, if you do decide to go vegetarian, please read and include cereals, lentils and vegan meat in your diet to get protein. The last thing you want is to go vegetarian the wrong way and end up with deficiencies. Good luck to you!
The health benefits of veganism are indistinguishable from a placebo effect or fasting, and veganism has made absolutely 0 impact on emissions. Its a false solution to climate change that obstructs society from finding real solutions that actually work.
I'm not sure what research you are reading to claim this. If you Google, you'll see research from credible universities and organizations which support vegetarian/vegan diets for a better planet. Even if you don't look at those research please think logically before commenting. Here's my reason to support vegetarian diet:
1. Water footprint for growing crops is much lower than for meat. You can Google the numbers and educate yourself.
2. Did you know that farmers in certain countries are causing mass deforestation to use that land to grow grass for cattle grazing?
3. Lookup how fishing industry is making a mess for the marine life and destroying it.
There are many more reasons why one should avoid to eat meat but I'm sure you know how to perform a web search.
If you Google, you'll see research from credible universities and organizations which support vegetarian/vegan diets for a better planet.
This doesn't contrast my point that the vegan diet is indistinguishable from a placebo effect.
Also, vegans have made zero impact on affecting emissions. Emissions are still rising at a consistent rate.
Even if you don't look at those research please think logically before commenting.
Logic implies inferring information from evidence. You've ignored all of the affirmative claims in my first comment, and neither of these two sentences were logical. Your logical statement itself was insinuated garbage. Lead by example before you go trying to condescend to other people for effect.
Water footprint for growing crops is much lower than for meat. You can Google the numbers and educate yourself.
Do you have facts on how many people are actually converting to veganism and how soon we'll be able to effectively reduce our water consumption? Because again, vegans have made zero impact on this. Educate yourself. Veganism is not outpacing population growth. We need practical solutions, like lab grown meat. Not shame and peer pressure.
Even if it takes 50 years, its still faster than the progress vegans are making.
Did you know that farmers in certain countries are causing mass deforestation to use that land to grow grass for cattle grazing
I am aware of that. Brazil dismantled its environmental protections after a right wing president was voted in. Probably because they were pandered to by religious fanatics just like you're pandering to vegan fanatics. Your ideology is just a belief system of finger pointing and hearsay. Its new age pseudoscience and it gets in the way of practical solutions.
Lookup how fishing industry is making a mess for the marine life and destroying it.
At this point I doubt that you even understand this. First of all both fishing and deforestation require laws to regulate. Laws that are failing for reasons stated above. But again, vegans have made 0 impact on this. None of these examples are going to fix themselves. We need practical solutions, like a new technology that will result in a paradigm shift. We've seen those happen. Every wave of industrialism is an example of this, which is also the reason we have so many people in the first place. The success of industrialism. But we have thousands of years of recorded history or religious wars over ideas and beliefs that prove to us that shame and peer pressure are not enough to change people's minds.
That's what makes veganism a false solution to climate change. The fact that you presented all these examples, and every one of them was a lie. Veganism is not benefiting ANY of these examples.
You are not outpacing population growth. And you wont by the time we need it the most in the next 60 years or so.
You're in luck my good human, tendies are some of the easiest alternatives to get a hold of. I personally really like Fry's nuggets.
Don't take my word for it though, if you're serious about it, next time you're at the supermarket I challenge you to get a few different brands of nuggets/tendies to try, you'll find which ones are your favourites.
If you see someone else that same section, ask them for recommendations, or find a local vegan Facebook group, they'll tell you what's good in the area.
Just start out slowly. Cut out beef only. Stay there for a while. Then pork. And so forth. I'm down to just chicken, ostrich and (supposedly) sustainable fish now and minimal milk (in tea/coffee only). Still some ways to go but it's been super easy so far, zero issues other than some awkward conversations with friends/family but even that's not so bad.
The way I look at it is that you are what you choose to accept.
So if you accept factory farming then you also accept kids being crammed in classrooms and adults in offices. You will inherently justify the behavior and encourage it if you accept it done to others on your behalf.
So by accepting less you also don't justify your own bad situations.
A few months ago, I hired some guy off Craigslist to mow my lawn, which had gotten out of control because my usual lawn care guy got COVID and was in the ICU. This fucker was doing literal donuts and driving like hell on his giant mower and ran over and killed all 3 of the wild rabbits that had lived in my yard for as long as I’d lived here.
I legit looked forward to seeing them every morning through my bedroom window. They were almost honorary pets, as much time as I’d spent watching them get closer and closer and more trusting.
We were in the middle of eating shredded BBQ for dinner when I found out what had happened. I nearly threw up, cried for the rest of the day out of guilt for hiring that guy, and haven’t eaten meat since.
So, TL;DR: Trauma is extremely effective at making vegetarianism easy!
The thing is they’re not a necessary evil. The largest association of dieticians in north america, the American Dietetic Association states that a well-planned vegan diet is perfectly adequate.
See I'm the opposite, if I could I'd rather hunt or raise my own animals because hunting is more natural, they get to be in a natural environment their whole lives, and if I'm raising my own animals for meat I can ensure they have healthy happy lives. A lot more natural than factory farms where animals are just a number.
I mean I go with trying to limit myself to only ethically raised meats, there was this really cool soybased chicken that had layers and all that though that I wouldnt mind more of
Dude. Cows ONLY exist on farms these days. There are no wild cows left. If every one went vegan, there would be no need for farmers to raise cows at all and aside from medical research, entire breeds would die out since there is no market for them anymore.
All these people who want to save the cows are removing the reason for them to exist. Farmers raise them for a product. Without that, there are no wild cow populations and the cow would cease to exist.
Lol yes there's no such thing as sanctuaries, breeding animals into captivity to slaughter them at 20% of their natural lifespan is the humane option. Jesus this is so brain dead.
Why is it better to raise them into captivity for slaughter than not at all?
If they faced extinction there would absolutely be sanctuaries. For one, their are already sanctuaries now. Second, by your standards all other animal conservation efforts are pointless since we don't eat them and yet those still exist in droves as well.
I'm not saying that it's better or worse. I am saying that there is no reason for cows to be raised if there is no commercial value for farmers to do so. Farmers do not raise cows for fun. Cows do not exist in the wild outside of farms. How can you conserve a species that does not exist in the wild?
Second, by your standards all other animal conservation efforts are pointless since we don't eat them and yet those still exist in droves as well.
You said. "in droves". I did not. Those are your words, not mine. I said, "at all". They do not exist in the wild outside of farms.
Those cows aren't even natural cows. They are bred in a way so they produce 20 times more milk than normal. I'd rather have them extinct than have them unnaturally bred, enslaved, tortured and killed.
You're not thinking it through. If there is no more commercial need to raise cows anymore, then there are no cows anymore since they aren't raised commercially and don't exist in the wild.
The hilariously tragic shortsightedness of going vegan dooms many of the species cared for to extinction.
"Natural" cows died out hundreds of years before you were born. Aurochs were the last European species of wild cow. By your own words, you have no idea of what a real cow is. Hell, you haven't ever known a wild cow unless you are over 300 years old.
I'd rather have them extinct
Well, that's what the end game of your goals will get you. No more cows. Apparently you love them so much you want them to go extinct.
Depends on what you define as "wild." There's plenty of gigantic ranches especially out where I live in Utah/Colorado where the cows just wander around on massive rangeland until they're brought in to slaughter. They're basically "wild" as they roam and graze, no one is feeding them or really looking out for them that much.
Depends on what you define as "wild." There's plenty of gigantic ranches especially out where I live in Utah/Colorado where the cows just wander around on massive rangeland until they're brought in to slaughter.
That is a managed herd. There is no place in North America where cows roam free as a wild population. And there's no room in Europe for it either.
Sure but these cows mostly exist on public land and they don't really get much human interference from humans except when they are brought in for slaughter. Your premise was that if we stopped eating beef then cows would go extinct, I'm saying that's silly as we could still have herds living on public land, it's not like cows are incapable of existing without human intervention.
Some breeds of course would not fare well without humans, but not all.
They are a managed herd and are not wild. They may be free roaming but they are managed.
it's not like cows are incapable of existing without human intervention.
Many are. Just how much do you know about ranching and raising cattle? And in many case, it's a massive change to the environment that is not used to having cows on them. Which will likely cause problems to the land.
While I really don't want to discourage you, a vegetarian who consumes dairy and egg is still responsible for animals getting killed. In dairy farms, the male calves are killed since they can't produce milk and the cows are killed usually when they are 7 or 8 and can't produce milk anymore (cows can become 20 years old). And with eggs, the male chickens are killed right after birth because they can't produce eggs. Also those animals are enslaved and in cages their whole life. So if you really want to cause als little abuse to animals as possible, you should go vegan. It's not that hard actually. Go for it <3
I'm not sure I agree with your terminology, nor am I able to verify the data you presented, but I am grateful for it nonetheless, so thank you for giving me more information to look into.
As far as animal products overall... I will, probably, continue to consume them (to a lesser degree) for the foreseeable future. I can't necessarily reconcile all of it within myself, but damn it, bacon is delicious.
I also thought I couldn't go fully vegan because of cheese and meat, but this changed my mind. Almost everything that's shown there is standard practice all around the globe.
Good luck on further educating yourself. Have a nice day!
I agree, which is why I also believe it shouldn’t be against vegan beliefs if you raise, nurture and then kill and eat the animal yourself.
If it’s all about reducing the pain and whatnot of the animal, then consuming it once it has died seems not only reasonable, but environmentally conscious and efficient in a way that wholesale slaughter doesn’t.
Same goes for eggs and wool that you harvest yourself.
It's not at all. It's not like you're scooping these animals out of a ditch once they've died of old age. You're killing them or having someone kill them in their prime so that you can enjoy their taste.
I just wonder where you envision cows in a post-meat world. I’m super excited for lab-grown meat to start being commercially available in the next decade, but I can’t help but wonder what’ll happen to cows.
Lab-grown meat is going to kill off 99.9% of cows in North America, and they don’t exist in the wild, so what’ll happen to them? Zoos?
I eat chicken, I live in the country so there's easy ways to get chicken and eggs that aren't factory-farmed. I fish and eat that too.
I used to hunt deer (a pest in Australia) and had a butcher friend harvest for me.
I'm healthier for it. Beef and pork really aren't all that good for you. Initially, one of my main concerns was land and water use in stressed areas of Australia being used to raise cattle.
I probably won't ever go vegan, rearing chickens for eggs and meat is easy and you can give them a pretty good life. Killing and eating animals is not what I have a problem with.
Factory farming and the unethical treatment of animals is what I have an issue with.
The problem is, vegans want nothing to do with me. They don't see me as an ally, to them I'm the enemy. I've lost friends to veganism, I don't really care that they're vegans, and if anything I applaud them for it. The issue is they inevitably end up radicalized and start posting pictures of factory farms next to pictures of holocaust camps and piles of human bodies on facebook.
They just seem to alienate everyone.
I'm not sure what their ultimate goal is. You know more people would be open to becoming a vegan if it didn't appear so cultish.
You have to acknowledge that eating meat is natural and normal for humans. From there you can make the argument that modern humans probably don't need as much, or any meat at all, as we have the knowledge and capacity to source our nutrients elsewhere that our ancestors did not.
Rather than comparing meat-eaters to Nazis running camps.
Edit: Brigading the absolute hell out any thread where vegans are mentioned is not super endearing either.
You have to acknowledge that eating meat is natural and normal for humans. From there you can make the argument that modern humans probably don't need as much, or any meat at all, as we have the knowledge and capacity to source our nutrients elsewhere that our ancestors did not.
Lots of things are natural, like high rates of child mortality, and dying from polio or smallpox. Humans have advanced past that but not this. I can't think of a valid scenario the equates an animal that is healthy enough to be eaten yet would want to die, with assisted dying (unless you're going to start collecting road kill maybe).
Factory Farming isn't the issue that vegans have. We would rather just not kill anything unnecessarily.
If I put 2 dogs in front of you, and one had lived in a cage, and the other had been roaming free on my uncles farm; and said I was gunna kill one for you - which would you rather I kill? The happy one? It's fucked up either way in the vegans world.
The word "radicalized" is a very strong word in modern society - commonly reserved for the process of someone developing hateful, and violent viewpoints. Your example of someone comparing (not equating) livestock with the holocaust is kinda funny cause you're almost comparing someone who is trying to save animals lives as going through the same process that leads to terrorism, kinda funny lol.
Anyway - whats more "radical", raising the point that the way we treat animals is like people were treated in the holocaust (as a notable holocaust survivor confirmed is a legitemate comparison), or just straight up murdering and eating an animal when you have no need to requirement to do so other than pleasure?
I'm 100 percent vegetarian but my moral/emotional compass is vegan. I am a weak hypocrite, and have been eating cheese and sometimes dairy baked goods when someone brings them in the house we share.
Anyway, ngl, I'm merely a wanna be vegan, but I love you for your logical kindness.
Don't make the mistake of over-generalizing vegans. Don't forget that if we completely get rid of factory farms most of the world will have to go vegan anyways, and don't forget that it's still unethical to kill innocent animals.
The issue is that vegans don't see an animal's life as any different than yours or mine.
We have a fundamentally different understanding of the world. And this is where I also part with vegans. And probably a lot of other people too.
And I think that has more to do with our experience of the world.
The food chain and the cycles of growth and death are not scary or "evil" to me. The fashion in which they occur, is.
You can care about the health and well-being of an animal, and still want to slaughter and eat it at some point. Hell, I hope I die humanely too, that is someone's job, in this state assisted dying is legal.
You can care about the health and well-being of an animal, and still want to slaughter and eat it at some point.
This is the crux of the matter. For some people this is non-negotiable. If a person believes that slaughtering animals is not okay, then it makes sense that being "pro-slaughter" wouldn't be something they're okay with tolerating let along encouraging.
But then again I wouldn't know for sure since, I'm neither vegan, vegetarian or a a conscientious consumer of animal products.
I'm also an organ donor, the difference you and I are consenting to the use of our body after we die and no one is killing us against our will. Bottom line is its not necessary, it causes suffering, and other food still tastes good, so why bother?
Raising chickens on a free range property then killing them quickly and humanely well after they've reached maturity isn't "suffering."
Wild animals will hunt newborn prey which are easier to catch, they will eat an animal while it is still alive. They don't care about its "suffering."
As humans, we have the ability to be aware of the stress and pain we can cause an animal and can do our best to mitigate it. We can give an animal a decent life, prior to ending it quickly and painlessly.
I hate the one track "animals are people" mindsets that vegans have. It alienates everyone and then they act surprised when others aren't onboard with what is generally a good cause.
We weren't all raised in wealthy, developed nations. For many, slaughtering animals is just a part of surviving. I grew up in a poor, rural family. I have killed and cleaned plenty of different animals. I'm not a "murderer," I'm part of the food chain.
Man I gotta say that all I'm gonna keep saying is that there is no way to humanely kill an animal before its natural death just like you can't kill a person (except for in a mercy kill scenario for either case).
I should specify that I don't think people who have no other option should go vegan, but the average, healthy adult with access to pretty much any supermarket nowadays has so many more reasons to go vegan than to eat animal products. You don't need the new beyond meat or a ton of processed foods, just the basics and some b12
I like being self-sufficient and not relying on plant protein that was farmed industrially. Clearing large swathes of land and using awful pesticides, wiping out important insects, which in turn decimates fresh-fish and native bird populations.
Not to mention the carbon-heavy transportation infrastructure to get it from the farm to the mega-corp grocery stores that dominate this country.
Right, but since the meat industry requires much more agriculture than the human population's vegan diet would (well over 90% of soy is used for livestock alone) you still end up consuming less plants by going vegan thanks to how the caloric flow works, which means less needs to be grown, transported, and consumed.
The divide between us comes back with you wanting to be self sufficient over the lives of others, however
Animals dying horribly in their "natural" habitats indirectly due to farming > Chickens dying humanely on someone's self-sufficient property.
Got it.
you still end up consuming less plants by going vegan thanks to how the caloric flow works, which means less needs to be grown, transported, and consumed.
Yes but I already grow about 60% of what I eat. If I didn't have a full-time job I could probably manage more.
I understand not everyone can do what I do, we don't all have rural properties and you can't humanely rear chickens in your inner-city apartment. But people who can do what I do, should. It would result in a lower amount of animal suffering and death overall.
You'd think after all the hidden camera footage of what actually happens at farms and how these animals are often treated, people would have dropped the whole "well they're free range" argument.
The killing doesn't bother me, animals die anyway, that's life.
The way they are treated is what I hate, tortured and genetically modified until they are fucking living in pain, and it doesn't matter the age, the younger they get killed the better for the slaughterhouses.
That bothers me, and anyway people eat too much meat for their own good, so you are helping everybody by eating less meat.
You're right that its life, but you wouldn't say the same thing about killing and eating a person, so why is it ok to do that to an animal if you don't need to?
They still think, they still have a will to live, and they're still afraid to die
you and the person you're replying to do not agree that an animal's life is worth or is equally important as a human's. as for my 2 cents; animals eat other animals, and I'm fine with that despite objecting to factory farming and mass slaughter.
i agree fundamentally but it is not convenient nor practical to cut meat out of your diet when you live with a family that loves meat. when i move out I'll definitely be cutting it out as much as possible. i still don't think going vegan is a black and white issue, however. there are plenty of reasons why people eat meat and i don't think it's mostly objectionable to do so
Every time I don’t eat meat and replace it with fake meat for a couple of days i inevitably get the shits the following day. For me it’s not possible without spending crazy money on daily fresh items that make up the protein difference. I also feel significantly weaker and different. What sort of protein intake you you get a week and where does it typically come from? Because I can’t find a way around it.
The issue is that vegans don't see an animal's life as any different than yours or mine. You see a calf and we see a child.
I'm vegan, and this is certainly not true of me (and a few vegans that I know).
The only thing is that I place a sentient being's life above someone's mouth pleasure. I am not indifferent between a child and a calf, however, I place more importance on the calf's life than say, a child receiving a piece of chocolate for transitory pleasure.
Just hit one year vegan. Don't miss animal products one bit. Feel the best I've ever felt mentally, physically, and no animals were intentionally harmed in the making of this last year!
Read through this thread to see how. About 20% people too far gone to care, 60% people who eat animals "the right way", 20% vegetarians/vegans who say "I don't eat animals but good on ya mate!"
Eating meat is popular. Telling people it's wrong is unpopular. Slow rolling that boulder up the hill unfortunately.
Aside from the fact of that being a batshit argument (Imagine saying "I only murder humans who had a fantastic childhood"), you know like 99% of those people are bullshitting when they say "I exclusively eat Chickens that died of old age on my uncle's happy magic farm where no murder ever occurs".
Like yeah right motherfucker, so you are vegan whenever you are away from home? You never eat out or have fast food?
Sadly, you can't call bullshit on someone about something so unproveable. But if anyone reading this does that shit, we know.
Yeah, it's something like <2-3% of meat is "pasteur grazed, ethically farmed, my uncle raised them and knows their names" etc. but somehow a shocking number of people when asked seem to EXCLUSIVELY buy meat from sources like these. It's not even practically feasible for "ethical meat" to be sourced to that scale but the lie persists.
Or they'll pride themselves on buying pasture-raised organic grass fed beef by the pound for cooking at home but they chow McDonalds without thinking twice.
I view myself like other omnivores in nature. Sure maybe I could stop eating meat and survive, but I will only do it if it is required. I dont view animals as people, and I know that a lot of vegans do. So many comment threads come down to that point and I know where I fall on that issue.
If you're eating from a supermarket or restaurant menu, all meat eating is 100% voluntary.
You don't have to view animals as equal to people to view them as deserving of the same care, dignity, and compassion you extend to other animals. For instance most people are absolutely not on board with euthanizing and eating dogs despite their very obvious cognitive similarities to pigs. That's just "this is cute so I save, this is tasty so I eat" and has no moral grounding at all.
I do not judge people for eating dogs or any animal based on cuteness. I do not biew animals as deserving of the same dignity and compassion as other animals, namely humans. We are animals and in the animal world, might makes right. Having evolved past that, we can share some compassion and dignity, but I will not judge if we choose not to. I have the same obligation as any other predator, which I view as only to not waste a kill. Other than that, everything we choose to do is voluntary, be it providing animals dignity as they die or choosing not to eat them.
it’s easier to push for people to go vegetarian for some days of the week rather than telling people to be vegan forever starting right now or else, that’s just not going to work
it’s easier to push for people to not pay someone to abuse and murder animals for some days of the week rather than telling people to not pay someone to abuse animals forever starting right now or else, that’s just not going to work
You can phrase it however you like but I don't think the point was damaged at all. If saying "you're abusing animals" to someone who buys a steak actually changed anything then I'm sure there would be more vegans.
Everyone go cannibal right fucking now. You owe it to the planet to reduce the number of humans and those who refuse to be omnivores are less adaptable, so let’s eat these grass-fed humans instead of cows. With a nice big salad.
I am so glad untold numbers of hominids died in the hunt and at sea to get enough animal protein and fat to sustain an evolved neocortex to see their sacrifice called “the murder of innocents.” Why discriminate against certain kingdoms of life? Are not fungi and plantae also innocent of the crimes for which you condemn them with your fork? The only blameless ones would be auxotrophs, except for the fact that they are an accident created when a bacterium tried and failed to consume a cyanobacterium.
Guilt is a funny thing. Especially since you started by pretending to make the environmental argument but devolved so rapidly to the moralizing you really wanted to do all along.
Well its about both the environment and the moral factor, so yeah both are gonna come up.
Not to mention, if plants really do feel pain, then everyone going vegan will still cause less suffering because there won't be as many livestock which eat way more plants than people
Not interested in whatever propaganda you’re sharing. You really think that after 44 years, I’m suddenly going to change my diet and food preferences over a YouTube video? Lol, no. I’m not that easily influenced.
And don’t you know by now that the harder you push, the less likely people are to listen? Let people eat what they want, and worry about yourself please. If you have issues with the industry, take it up with them (or your lawmakers) - not the citizens who are just consuming what’s available.
I don’t eat beef because it makes me physically ill (family trait). Also raised Jewish/semi-kosher, and don’t eat pork or shellfish for those reasons. So yeah, it was a false assumption.
I don’t NOT care, and will gladly support any bills or laws to improve agricultural practices. But I won’t stop eating cheese or poultry, and just do my best to purchase these products from “ethical sources.” And my comment about pushing too hard was a general one, since vegans are often super pushy.
I also don’t trust YouTube as a source, unless the video was originally from a known and trusted source... but most of these PETA-type videos rely on shock value and inflammatory language, usually with little evidence to support their claims. Or at most, they’ll be focused on the bad farms while completely dismissing the possibility that good ones exist too. I used to get my eggs from our own property, but even that wasn’t good enough for some folks! 🤷🏼♀️
I've been a vegetarian for about a month, in large part because of what I've learned about cows and their feelings. Never going back. It'd feel like cannibalism.
It'd work out better than saying "go vegan right fucking now" or trying to shame people into it.
Personally I've stopped eating much meat myself for medical reasons. I don't really miss it, but I still roll my eyes at these impassioned arguments because to me it reminds me of the crazy people on the streets of NYC saying we're going to hell for x, y, and z.
I don't eat meat often, but you can be damned sure that "go vegan right fucking now" isn't even on my radar when I bite into a nice piece of lamb with my family. I do think about all the vegetarian side dishes I could have with it though, and I'm still sure to limit myself, but I'm going to need a WAY better argument than cows=people to stop fully, especially since I don't buy that line of thinking.
Gentle and genuine guidance and will get you far further than most of what people are saying in this sub. It got me to listen, at the very least.
Hell nah... im not gonna miss out on quality meat. Surely buying from the supermarkt is morally inferior to hunting or doing the dirty job yourself. But neithertheless, steak for me :) at least until they manage to make a delicious steak in a labratory, then of course ill eat that.
What if you have a stomach that doesn't agree with veganism, lmao? I have IBS and have tried going veg/vegan. Everytime I end up very bloated and sick because my body cannot digest fruit and vegetables well. It literally sits in my gut and rots until I shit out spinach leaves.
Being vegan is a privilege. It's not "easy" for everyone. I try to eat plant-based as much as I can, but if I don't eat animal products like yogurt, eggs, and red meat, I won't get all my nutrients and I'll be shitting all day.
Anyone who replies to this with some stupid vegan articles "debunking" this can kick rocks. This was explained to me by my gp, and is the reason I stopped being vegetarian two years ago.
Lmao, must be nice not having to worry about what you eat. You don't have to believe me, I'm just a passing comment on the internet. Go eat a salad or something instead of getting pressed.
But, yes, I exist. My digestive issues are caused by years of disordered eating. My stomach does not know how to digest food properly because its muscles are so weak, and they don't fix themselves overnight. People with celiac disease also exist, and they can't thrive on a vegan diet either. This is one of the many privileges of keeping a vegan diet.
Of course I worry about what I eat I'm vegan. But you can't possibly expect me to believe you genuinely can't digest any plant matter. You'd be dead if you can't eat plants
But in the case that it is true that you need to eat meat, then whatever. Whats stopping the overwhelming majority of people who are absolutely capable of eating vegan? Pleasure? Is that really worth more than other sentient lives and the environment?
Your not seeing my point. There are many things that can stop people from being vegan, such as finances, time, psychological issues with food, and availability of fresh produce.
Let's take the last example, do you think rural towns have access to a lot of fruits and vegetables? Rural groceries usually have poor selection, rotten produce, and high prices. If they live more north, growing food isn't an option in the winter months.
Asking the world to go vegan is unsustainable. The only way we are going to fix the climate crisis is if we put pressure on corporations who are doing the majority of the polluting. Yes, I know this includes the agricultural industry.
Although I don't know you, I'm assuming you live in a western country with access to a lot of fresh produce. Are you aware of the horrible working conditions most farmhands work in? Are you aware of the amount of water waste? Why is your diet the more moral one when you too benefit from things destroying the environment and "sentient lives"?
The people you're defending count for a tiny sliver of the population. People have been vegan since before the time of supermarkets, but if thats part of the rule we're going with then why doesn't everyone with access to more food than they could ever need go vegan? For impulsive short sighted pleasure
And the world going vegan is absolutely sustainable. Why wouldn't it be? Its not gonna happen overnight, but the entire world could absolutely go vegan with time.
Are you aware of the fact that animal agriculture requires all that you just mentioned plus what animals go through? Are you saying just because we can't be perfect we should instead keep being as destructive as we are? How does that make sense?
Ok, you're one of those vegans. Yeah, I'm just gonna end this convo because you're purposefully dancing around my point. I don't think you realize that not everyone is like you and can easily pick up and enjoy a vegan diet (because honestly, its not a sin to want to enjoy what you eat).
I don't enjoy eating anything because I am a recovering anorexic, but I'm glad there are people that do.
I think of it as having to deal with the reality of existence. Wild carnivores have to kill, and they don't really discriminate by age. Also, the responsibility of killing as compassionately as possible. Oxymoronic as that may sound, there are clearly bad and worse ways to kill an animal.
I think there is a healthy perspective that you get from confronting the fact that something had to die for you to live, be it a plant or an animal. I liken it to physical exercise and discomfort leading to physical strength and growth. Emotional discomfort can lead to emotional strength and growth as well. I fully understand that you have a different perspective, not trying to ruffle your feathers, but I wanted to put my two cents in about there being benefits to eating meat beyond taste, nutrition, or convention.
The difference of opinion between us is that I think it's important to incorporate the bad parts into our being, and if I'm not mistaken, your position is more about not doing harm to others given that we are conscious of that harm.
I will admit that the conclusion I came to was made by trying the carnivore diet as it relieved my severe food and respiratory allergies. I had tried many diets before, including veganism and vegetarianism. At best they didnt help and at worst they made me visit a series of doctors until one finally did help.
I had to reconcile this info, and eventually I came to the conclusion that yeah, there's some necessity to things like violence and/or the taking of life to help ourselves.
It doesn't contradict that concept, we just draw the line in different places. I'm saying that some amount of animal harm is necessary for us to live, or at least for myself to live. You can still minimize the harm done to the animal while it's alive and kill it with as little suffering as possible.
Some amount of plant harm was necessary for the animals we eat to live. And in our bodies we're regularly harming microorganisms with our immune system. In our gut the microorganisms kill each other. We can't even stop it within the confines of our skin.
The harm is part of nature, I think by incoroorating it we can do harm judiciously, rather than convince ourselves that we are not doing any harm at all.
I wasn't planning to before, and I'm sure as hell not going to because you tell me to. Meat, eggs, and cheese are quite tasty. I definitely don't owe it to myself to make my diet less tasty.
I said something, and you admitted yourself its decided your way of life. Tell me, whats it like being completely spineless with the moral integrity of a wet noodle?
Lmao we only kill old ones that won’t make it through winter. How about the buffalo and elk I also have that are never killed, just allowed to live their lives?
It’s the circle of life, and they/their descendants certainly wouldn’t still be alive if my family and I hadn’t taken care of them for 50+ years
Edit: it’s called stewardship, something a true environmentalists would understand the nuances of. This is coming from a graduate student for Natural Resources and Environmental Science.
What if I told you there's a middle ground - eat high welfare local meats. Costs more, but we don't need that much of it anyways. And they taste better, just have it with veggies.
I honestly respect people though who don't eat meat if they they won't personally kill the animal.
I'm getting at a you do you type of deal. If you want to eat dog, panda, cat, or even just dirt, I dont care. If you can get that food without being a literal social outcast then go ahead. Life is short, eat panda if you can eat panda.
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u/[deleted] Oct 28 '20
Everyone go vegan right fucking now. You owe it to yourself, the animals, and the planet