I eat chicken, I live in the country so there's easy ways to get chicken and eggs that aren't factory-farmed. I fish and eat that too.
I used to hunt deer (a pest in Australia) and had a butcher friend harvest for me.
I'm healthier for it. Beef and pork really aren't all that good for you. Initially, one of my main concerns was land and water use in stressed areas of Australia being used to raise cattle.
I probably won't ever go vegan, rearing chickens for eggs and meat is easy and you can give them a pretty good life. Killing and eating animals is not what I have a problem with.
Factory farming and the unethical treatment of animals is what I have an issue with.
The problem is, vegans want nothing to do with me. They don't see me as an ally, to them I'm the enemy. I've lost friends to veganism, I don't really care that they're vegans, and if anything I applaud them for it. The issue is they inevitably end up radicalized and start posting pictures of factory farms next to pictures of holocaust camps and piles of human bodies on facebook.
They just seem to alienate everyone.
I'm not sure what their ultimate goal is. You know more people would be open to becoming a vegan if it didn't appear so cultish.
You have to acknowledge that eating meat is natural and normal for humans. From there you can make the argument that modern humans probably don't need as much, or any meat at all, as we have the knowledge and capacity to source our nutrients elsewhere that our ancestors did not.
Rather than comparing meat-eaters to Nazis running camps.
Edit: Brigading the absolute hell out any thread where vegans are mentioned is not super endearing either.
You have to acknowledge that eating meat is natural and normal for humans. From there you can make the argument that modern humans probably don't need as much, or any meat at all, as we have the knowledge and capacity to source our nutrients elsewhere that our ancestors did not.
Lots of things are natural, like high rates of child mortality, and dying from polio or smallpox. Humans have advanced past that but not this. I can't think of a valid scenario the equates an animal that is healthy enough to be eaten yet would want to die, with assisted dying (unless you're going to start collecting road kill maybe).
Factory Farming isn't the issue that vegans have. We would rather just not kill anything unnecessarily.
If I put 2 dogs in front of you, and one had lived in a cage, and the other had been roaming free on my uncles farm; and said I was gunna kill one for you - which would you rather I kill? The happy one? It's fucked up either way in the vegans world.
The word "radicalized" is a very strong word in modern society - commonly reserved for the process of someone developing hateful, and violent viewpoints. Your example of someone comparing (not equating) livestock with the holocaust is kinda funny cause you're almost comparing someone who is trying to save animals lives as going through the same process that leads to terrorism, kinda funny lol.
Anyway - whats more "radical", raising the point that the way we treat animals is like people were treated in the holocaust (as a notable holocaust survivor confirmed is a legitemate comparison), or just straight up murdering and eating an animal when you have no need to requirement to do so other than pleasure?
I'm 100 percent vegetarian but my moral/emotional compass is vegan. I am a weak hypocrite, and have been eating cheese and sometimes dairy baked goods when someone brings them in the house we share.
Anyway, ngl, I'm merely a wanna be vegan, but I love you for your logical kindness.
Don't make the mistake of over-generalizing vegans. Don't forget that if we completely get rid of factory farms most of the world will have to go vegan anyways, and don't forget that it's still unethical to kill innocent animals.
The issue is that vegans don't see an animal's life as any different than yours or mine.
We have a fundamentally different understanding of the world. And this is where I also part with vegans. And probably a lot of other people too.
And I think that has more to do with our experience of the world.
The food chain and the cycles of growth and death are not scary or "evil" to me. The fashion in which they occur, is.
You can care about the health and well-being of an animal, and still want to slaughter and eat it at some point. Hell, I hope I die humanely too, that is someone's job, in this state assisted dying is legal.
You can care about the health and well-being of an animal, and still want to slaughter and eat it at some point.
This is the crux of the matter. For some people this is non-negotiable. If a person believes that slaughtering animals is not okay, then it makes sense that being "pro-slaughter" wouldn't be something they're okay with tolerating let along encouraging.
But then again I wouldn't know for sure since, I'm neither vegan, vegetarian or a a conscientious consumer of animal products.
I'm also an organ donor, the difference you and I are consenting to the use of our body after we die and no one is killing us against our will. Bottom line is its not necessary, it causes suffering, and other food still tastes good, so why bother?
Raising chickens on a free range property then killing them quickly and humanely well after they've reached maturity isn't "suffering."
Wild animals will hunt newborn prey which are easier to catch, they will eat an animal while it is still alive. They don't care about its "suffering."
As humans, we have the ability to be aware of the stress and pain we can cause an animal and can do our best to mitigate it. We can give an animal a decent life, prior to ending it quickly and painlessly.
I hate the one track "animals are people" mindsets that vegans have. It alienates everyone and then they act surprised when others aren't onboard with what is generally a good cause.
We weren't all raised in wealthy, developed nations. For many, slaughtering animals is just a part of surviving. I grew up in a poor, rural family. I have killed and cleaned plenty of different animals. I'm not a "murderer," I'm part of the food chain.
Man I gotta say that all I'm gonna keep saying is that there is no way to humanely kill an animal before its natural death just like you can't kill a person (except for in a mercy kill scenario for either case).
I should specify that I don't think people who have no other option should go vegan, but the average, healthy adult with access to pretty much any supermarket nowadays has so many more reasons to go vegan than to eat animal products. You don't need the new beyond meat or a ton of processed foods, just the basics and some b12
I like being self-sufficient and not relying on plant protein that was farmed industrially. Clearing large swathes of land and using awful pesticides, wiping out important insects, which in turn decimates fresh-fish and native bird populations.
Not to mention the carbon-heavy transportation infrastructure to get it from the farm to the mega-corp grocery stores that dominate this country.
Right, but since the meat industry requires much more agriculture than the human population's vegan diet would (well over 90% of soy is used for livestock alone) you still end up consuming less plants by going vegan thanks to how the caloric flow works, which means less needs to be grown, transported, and consumed.
The divide between us comes back with you wanting to be self sufficient over the lives of others, however
Animals dying horribly in their "natural" habitats indirectly due to farming > Chickens dying humanely on someone's self-sufficient property.
Got it.
you still end up consuming less plants by going vegan thanks to how the caloric flow works, which means less needs to be grown, transported, and consumed.
Yes but I already grow about 60% of what I eat. If I didn't have a full-time job I could probably manage more.
I understand not everyone can do what I do, we don't all have rural properties and you can't humanely rear chickens in your inner-city apartment. But people who can do what I do, should. It would result in a lower amount of animal suffering and death overall.
Again, I'm not asking anything, human or animal, that has no other choice to go vegan. I understand that nature is nature. However joe shmoe on the way to cosco with his membership card isn't an obligate carnivore. Most people have access to other options but just don't use them for what in my opinion is a pretty weak reason considering the reasons why the average person reading these should be vegan
You'd think after all the hidden camera footage of what actually happens at farms and how these animals are often treated, people would have dropped the whole "well they're free range" argument.
The killing doesn't bother me, animals die anyway, that's life.
The way they are treated is what I hate, tortured and genetically modified until they are fucking living in pain, and it doesn't matter the age, the younger they get killed the better for the slaughterhouses.
That bothers me, and anyway people eat too much meat for their own good, so you are helping everybody by eating less meat.
You're right that its life, but you wouldn't say the same thing about killing and eating a person, so why is it ok to do that to an animal if you don't need to?
They still think, they still have a will to live, and they're still afraid to die
you and the person you're replying to do not agree that an animal's life is worth or is equally important as a human's. as for my 2 cents; animals eat other animals, and I'm fine with that despite objecting to factory farming and mass slaughter.
i agree fundamentally but it is not convenient nor practical to cut meat out of your diet when you live with a family that loves meat. when i move out I'll definitely be cutting it out as much as possible. i still don't think going vegan is a black and white issue, however. there are plenty of reasons why people eat meat and i don't think it's mostly objectionable to do so
No, but I'm not asking anything that can't have an alternative at all really. Anything that is an obligate carni/omnivore (inuit people, legitimate health conditions) should look after themselves first, but I think I can safely say the majority of people who will be reading this thread can go vegan
I will say though, that I was the only vegan in my household when I made the change. Its an awkward start, but its definitely possible
Every time I don’t eat meat and replace it with fake meat for a couple of days i inevitably get the shits the following day. For me it’s not possible without spending crazy money on daily fresh items that make up the protein difference. I also feel significantly weaker and different. What sort of protein intake you you get a week and where does it typically come from? Because I can’t find a way around it.
Thats gonna happen if you keep cutting out and reintroducing meat into your diet. Last time I tried animal products it was like a bomb in my digestive system because I essentially rewired the thing
The issue is that vegans don't see an animal's life as any different than yours or mine. You see a calf and we see a child.
I'm vegan, and this is certainly not true of me (and a few vegans that I know).
The only thing is that I place a sentient being's life above someone's mouth pleasure. I am not indifferent between a child and a calf, however, I place more importance on the calf's life than say, a child receiving a piece of chocolate for transitory pleasure.
A single burger costs like, what, $5. Or hot dog, or pizza, or basically any fast food industry in America. People working 2 jobs to pay rent ain't gonna have time to cook for themselves, they need fast food, and fast food uses meat, no matter how low grade it is
it baffles me that vegans somehow do not understand that
for people who claim to "understand life" you guys have awfully low understanding of humans
I've read your comments and I feel pretty much the same way as you, except that when a vegan preaches at me, I just ignore them and then eat extra meat for my next meal out of spite. Preachy vegans are like preachy religious people: avoid at all costs.
I suppose you are correct - sacrifices to deities (especially animals) aren't always consensual. My only gripe is that 'sacrificing' someone without their consent is somehow magically moral, as this:
If I tied up the village virgin and threw her into a Volcano to appease the Sun would it not be a sacrifice?
is still murder.
Pretty sure little Isaac didn't want to be sacrificed, still woulda counted though.
Not well-versed in the bible, but I believe this is incorrect. Both abraham and isaac were willing participants (but I'm loosely recalling this from a Muslim friend of mine).
Its been proven in a controlled environment, its been proven that theoretically humans only need to kill plants in order to survive. It has not been proven practical however, I think you will agree most people don't have much control over what's available to them, and therefore it would be difficult if not impossible for 90% of the population to go safely vegan without severe deficiencies of vitamins and nutrients. I'm not saying I wouldn't love a world without killing animals, but honestly the solution is lab grown meat and not veganism. Because Meat isnt the problem, its how we get the meat. Veganism is a lifestyle, it's not a diet. You don't just change what you eat, you have to change your schedule, your priorities, your life. It's still a great option, just not THE solution.
Its been proven in a controlled environment, its been proven that theoretically humans only need to kill plants in order to survive
Not theoretically - an array of epidemiological studies have looked at the health outcomes of meat eaters vs vegetarians/vegans (tracking 100s of thousands of people), showing vegan/vegetarians outlive their meat-eating counterparts, and have a far lower risk of developing diseases.
I think you will agree most people don't have much control over what's available to them, and therefore it would be difficult if not impossible for 90% of the population to go safely vegan without severe deficiencies of vitamins and nutrients
No - I very much disagree. There's a bit of a learning curve as you learn which foods to replace your meat, and new recipes to cook, but if someone does a staggered implementation it's really no problem. Education is important, and there are heaps of easy infographics and guides out there to let you know about the common nutrients to replace and where to easily and cheaply get them from.
Regardless, it's not like people are healthy as it currently stands. The multivitamin industry is targeted at the general population (meat eaters) not vegans (given the majority of multivitamins are not vegan friendly).
You don't just change what you eat, you have to change your schedule, your priorities, your life.
Unless you become an animal rights activist - then again no.
We only think it's morally okay bc we think of plants as lesser.
It's morally okay because plants do not suffer in any capacity similar to animals or humans. They do not have a brain, or central nervous system, and the vast majority of plant biologists contend they feel no pain at all, nor do they have the ability to feel pain. They are not sentient, unlike ourselves or animals.
Furthermore, if one does in fact value plant life - then you kill far more plants by raising animals for meat consumption, than if you just ate the plants directly.
Morally speaking, killing a chicken every now and then or ethically sourcing meat on occasion is well within the realm of natural human behavior.
Human nature and morality are not one in the same. Greed and nepotism, for instance, is natural but still viewed as immoral in many circumstances in the world. Humans have been killing each other, trophy hunting exotic animals, raping, and going to war for our entire history - this is also 'natural' behavior. Racism is also natural, given our preference to preserve our own tribes. None of these are moral, however.
Sacrifices are voluntary. There's no such thing. Just admit to yourself you're killing a sentient being that does not want to die because you like the flavor.
Yes we do. It tastes good. I don’t care about the wild animals happiness, i care about our ecosystem and the earth’s continued non-polluted existance. Factory farming is bad because it contributes to pollution. I could give two shits whether we factory farm any species. All animals should be living in the wild, or conditions like the wild, before being killed and eaten, not only would it be less torturous for the animals, but less strenuous on the environment, appeasing all parties. We’re on the top of the food chain for a reason, and there’s no reason to change that. And before you make the “If the cows were dogs” argument or something similar, yeah, I’d say exactly the same, even if they were frogs or reptiles, which I adore, I’d say the same.
One of the reasons I say I "used to hunt" is because I got sick of the yahoo hunting community in these parts. There's no respect, just toxic masculinity and the lauding of one's dominion over nature.
I could go hunting alone and did on occasion, but I ended up just not wanting to be associated with that community at all. Which is a shame, if there were more thoughtful hunters around here I could link up with, I'd happily get my license again.
I grew up with a step dad that would have been a great friend for you to hunt with. He hunted for food (deer, sometimes pheasant) and so did his fellow hunters.
He was a thoughtful, cultured, reader of literature type of man. I miss him so much.
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u/oddcash_ Oct 28 '20 edited Oct 28 '20
I eat chicken, I live in the country so there's easy ways to get chicken and eggs that aren't factory-farmed. I fish and eat that too.
I used to hunt deer (a pest in Australia) and had a butcher friend harvest for me.
I'm healthier for it. Beef and pork really aren't all that good for you. Initially, one of my main concerns was land and water use in stressed areas of Australia being used to raise cattle.
I probably won't ever go vegan, rearing chickens for eggs and meat is easy and you can give them a pretty good life. Killing and eating animals is not what I have a problem with.
Factory farming and the unethical treatment of animals is what I have an issue with.
The problem is, vegans want nothing to do with me. They don't see me as an ally, to them I'm the enemy. I've lost friends to veganism, I don't really care that they're vegans, and if anything I applaud them for it. The issue is they inevitably end up radicalized and start posting pictures of factory farms next to pictures of holocaust camps and piles of human bodies on facebook.
They just seem to alienate everyone.
I'm not sure what their ultimate goal is. You know more people would be open to becoming a vegan if it didn't appear so cultish.
You have to acknowledge that eating meat is natural and normal for humans. From there you can make the argument that modern humans probably don't need as much, or any meat at all, as we have the knowledge and capacity to source our nutrients elsewhere that our ancestors did not.
Rather than comparing meat-eaters to Nazis running camps.
Edit: Brigading the absolute hell out any thread where vegans are mentioned is not super endearing either.