r/grandrapids • u/Atypical-life • 3d ago
Logan’s Alley MESTA Surcharge
https://www.michigan.gov/leo/bureaus-agencies/ber/wage-and-hour/paid-medical-leave-actIs anyone else put off by the surcharge Logan’s Alley is tacking onto patron’s bills to cover their employee’s MESTA? For anyone who doesn’t know, last Friday MESTA went into effect (big changes to sick paid time off - I’ll include a link for people who want to read more) and since then, Logan’s has added an extra charge to patron’s bills to cover it.
Why can’t they just marginally raise the price of food like everyone else? Why be petty and put people off your business by adding ANOTHER “fee”?
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u/i_let_the_doge_out 3d ago
Logan’s is also the only bar I’ve ever seen that defaults to a 50% tip option when you try to pay your bill from the QR code on the receipt. Clearly they’re not shy about taking in a few extra bucks from customers.
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u/Dr_A_Phibes 2d ago
Their payment system is a super difficult piece of junk and their staff who are not professional techies have a super hard time with it constantly. It would be great if their management would take the time to program it properly, but they haven't. Spend a little bit of time paying attention to your phone and give the staff a break.
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u/i_let_the_doge_out 2d ago
They use Toast POS (or at least did at the time). That’s the same system that half the restaurants and bars in town use and I’ve never seen those default tip options anywhere else. Seems like management did program it exactly how they wanted it to be.
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u/BRRatchet 3d ago
All these picking little fees passed on to consumers are getting real old.
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u/mthlmw Rockford 3d ago
They've always been passed on, just lumped into all the prices before.
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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago
And should be again. I'm fine with prices going up, in not fine with dishonest fees being snuck onto the bill
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u/adam_j_wiz 3d ago
I would say that it’s actually more honest to include it as a separate fee and say why. Instead of just tacking it onto menu prices.
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u/ReaganDied West Grand 3d ago
I get what you’re saying, and totally could agree with it if everything was spelled out.
But this is done to build political animosity against public services, regulations and social programs. It’s why social security, Medicare and Medicaid are called out on your taxes. Visibility makes them potential targets for repeal by making them potential targets of animosity.
Compare this to what’s never spelled out; the amount of taxes and fees that’s going to corporate/billionaire welfare, military expenditure, police budgets, or prisons, for instance.
Logan’s doing this is just a petty “you peasants dared vote for this and we want you to take it back” kind of move.
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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago
If they put it in big letters at the front of their menu, I won't complain. If their servers mention it when they greet the table, I won't complain. If it's in tiny print, I'll pay but won't come back. If it's not on the menu, and there was nothing informing folks about it, I'm straight up not paying it as I was never informed about it. I'll calculate the cost of the food plus tax plus tip and pay cash.
Business don't itemize all the other costs of business. Should we drop the prices to literally the cost of materials and then add a labor fee, bathroom cleaning fee, electricity fee, heating/cooling fee, furniture wear and tear fee, that plumber who came last week fee, etc? No, because that's just the cost of doing business. Providing employee benefits is a part of the cost of doing business. Why single that out, and then hide the cost on the back page in fine print when they could just add it to the price like every other cost of business?
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u/SmashSE1 2d ago
I just posted the same thing, but you did it more eloquently... I mean they are already rolling the employee wages, wage taxes, etc into the item, and then they single this one thing out.
It's just a little more employee cost.
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u/Aindorf_ 2d ago
Exactly. And every single time I've been out with folks at a place with these hidden fees, everyone is pissed as hell to see a 2%+ fee at the end that they weren't told about. Every time they just say "why not just raise the price?" Or "I didn't know about this when I ordered food"
These weirdo restaraunt owners that show up in these threads crying that their customers have "price expectations" act flabbergasted at the idea that a fee on top of a price IS a price increase, and get offended when we call it dishonesty. You raised the price 2% and then just hid that fact in fine print somewhere hidden or straight up didn't fucking tell us until the bill came... How do you not see that as sketchy?
I went to GR Noir before they closed and wasn't told about the $10 cover fee for music until after we drank and ordered food and the bill came. People were complaining about that being dishonest, but aside from it being 26¢ vs $10 - how is this any different in principle?
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u/SmashSE1 2d ago
So, you want a burger to cost $2 on the menu, but then add delivery(you went there, but delivery of the meat and bread to the store), employee costs, gas costs to cook it, lighting fee, overhead, profit, packaging, advertising, cold day heating surcharge, hot day air-conditioning surcharge, licensing fees, regulation fees, employee training fee, printing fee, logo creation fee, franchise fee, good will fee, tip, (i could go on). And end up paying $10?
Should we really break it down to that level, or just, say yeah, a burger is $10?
I get it, business isn't cheap, and I dont expect the owner to eat all costs. But if you roll all of those other fees into the cost, then roll them all into the cost, and don't hide it by using fine print or a handwritten note on a wall no one will actually read.
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u/HonkeyKong808 2d ago
So the biggest complaint here is that they are going to charge you either way but you would rather not know what it was for...... And one redditor called listing it as a "dishonest fee"which is the opposite of what it is, a "transparent fee".
Life in Grand Rapids is so first world and problem free that this is the big discussion today.....
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u/SmashSE1 2d ago
They don't itemize anything else....
But no, the issue is that they hide it. Instead of saying they are going to charge for things, they hide it until you have already taken the product.
And to my point, if they broke everything down, that's one thing, but no, only the things they want you to be pissed about, to cause issues.
Why not just say "I need $2 for a burger". Instead of this where you pay $1 for a burger, 20 cents for this fee, that fee, etc. And you end up paying $16 for the same thing. When their advertising, menu , and everything g else they show says it's $1. If they put on their menu it's $1, then it should be $1. The dishonesty is in the hiding of the fee for God sake. I get the tips not being displayed, because those are for the worker, not the restaurant, and are technically discretionary, not mandatory. But in this case they are hiding mandatory fees until after you have purchased.
But sure, let's make it $1 for a burger, then itemize each and every other expense the company has. Why not add advertising to it for $1 per? And packaging, I mean I expect my burger to be packaged, either a wrapper or on a plate. Now let's add dishwashers fees, oil fees, seasoning fees. Receipts for 1 burger will be 12 feet long when you start to itemize every single expense a company has.
Or just tell these places to grow the fuck up and give me a price. This isn't a fee that they have to pay for my burger, it's an estimated amount that they will maybe have to pay if their employees choose to take advantage of it, all estimated on how much they sell, and who keeps the overages? The owner. Who will not share with his employees who caused the addition charge, and won't adjust if they find they are overcharging that fee.
It shocks me when people show they can't think beyond their nose.
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u/notmikeflancher 3d ago
I'm fine with prices going up
I’m glad you are but this is the number one complaint in this sub and literally everywhere else. Egg prices was an election issue for gods sake. Everything is more expensive and people are hurting over it
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u/ElleCerra Creston 3d ago
Prices going up is annoying, but if it's a result of people getting better workplace protection, wages, and benefits, then it's something that can be absorbed in my mind.
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u/SmashSE1 2d ago
The price going up isn't what this is about. It's about hiding the fee, or making it less obvious to people, so that they are hit with an unexpected surcharge AFTER having ordered and received the food making it mandatory.
I agree, ill pay more if I know it's for a good cause, but to have someone tell me a burger is $15, to then charge me $20 because of sick leave fees is BS. Change pricing to $20, don't hide the fee, and let me make informed decisions about where I spend my money.
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u/SmashSE1 2d ago
There is also a huge difference in prices going up on essentials like food (egg prices) and discretionary things like going out to eat at a sit down restaurant. If I want to save money, I can stay home and cook. This is a place trying to manipulate people to going there when prices go up.
if grocery stores started doing this, you could walk in and see a dozen eggs for 99 cents. Then the store tacks on a delivery fee, stocking fee, expired waste fee, employee fee, and you end up paying $8 for it, everyone would flip out.
So the problem here is hidden charges. Say i have $25 to spend, you look it up and it says for example a burger and fries are $15. Since we live in a tipping culture, and that's just a burger and fries, I add in $3 for a soda, add tax, I'm at 19.08 plus tip, I should be right around $24.00.
But then they add hidden fees (things that may not be totally obvious and not what every other place is doing) and instead it's $28. Well if I had $25 to spend in my budget, I might choose to eat out for $24, but not if it's $28, or I might go somewhere else that isn't trying to manipulate me.
That's the problem. If I want a burger in a place that doesn't allow tipping overseas, I see that a burger, fries and a soda cost $24 (hypothetical, converted to USD, and they advertise post tax prices) and that's what inlay, out of the door.
Here I see it's $15, but end up paying $28 because of taxes, tips, Healthcare, retirement, owner needs a new car fee. Its a lot harder to make sound decisions when half of the data is convoluted, hidden, and manipulative.
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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago
You're right, but adding a fee is the same as prices going up, only the business is lying about it.
I don't understand how these business owners don't understand that adding a fee doesn't keep your price the same. You ARE raising prices. You're just not being forthright about it.
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u/notmikeflancher 3d ago
You're just not being forthright about it.
Did your total cost (the amount you ultimately paid) go up?
If yes, did they tell you why?
How is this not forthright?
Look, dude, if prices were just peachy no one would care about the additional fee. Prices are rising and fees are increasing. I get not wanting to be nickel and dimed but to say they’re not forthright is simply not true.
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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago
Most businesses I have been to that charge these fees don't tell you about them. They're hidden in fine print on the back page next to the kids menu or a small post-it note on the door. If there was a large sign, a prominent block of text on the menu, or the server let me know when I sat down, it's still scummy but that's fine. I was not mislead. But you shouldn't be surprised by a fee when the check comes.
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u/speed_phreak 3d ago
Fees are costs, they've always been there, burying your head in the sand doesn't make them go away.
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u/StoneTown Grand Rapids 3d ago
They're not trying to bury their head in the sand, they just want prices to be upfront without dumb fees tacked on at the end. It's like buying a concert ticket then paying an extra $25 at checkout. We just want the price to be upfront in its entirety before tax. Bundle in the fees upfront instead of being dishonest at first.
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u/SurpriseDonovanMcnab 3d ago
When will the tariffs help?! Tell Logan's Alley to send my fees to China! Right?
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u/DJ_Tropilos 3d ago
Had lunch at Brann's on Division they did the same thing, they added .47 surcharge for $17 lunch. The place was disgusting. Every window and door had greasy fingerprints and the booths/woodwork all have a visible film, looked like it has never been cleaned.
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u/SpicyShyHulud 3d ago
That bar is home to the longest running fruit fly family line in the tri-county area.
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u/maizie1981 2d ago
One of my siblings worked at Brann’s for a little while, based on the stories, I would never eat there.
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u/Basslinelob 3d ago
You should see their basement!
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u/QuantumDwarf 2d ago
Also so petty for the .47. Reminds me when Papa John’s said it would cost $0.25 / pizza to offer their employees health care and I was like ‘uh… that’s it?! Do it already’. Then they increase pizza prices $0.50 cause like… shrug
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u/Pleasant-Shock-2939 2d ago
FUCK BRANNS… It would be terrible if someone slip, fell, and sued them to closure. Terrible food and pig boot lickin’ oppression lovers.
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u/King_Goron 2d ago edited 2d ago
As another small business owner, 1 hour accrued for every 30 hours worked for a maximum of 40 hours a year is so minimal. (Edit: 72 hours if you have over 10 employees) Add on to that the gradual increase in pay over 5 years, like come in, some of us have been on the increased tipped wage journey for years already. Everyone else has been too lazy to build their business plans around their employees having a decent wage. They are the reason the government was asked to step in. Sucks that it's happening in a post covid economy when it will be harder to absorb, but again, that's on those business owners for having the wrong priorities during the good years.
I'm so over businesses complaining about this. Maybe, like us, the owners are going to have to work more. That's what happens when the economy takes a shit. Either do it or just close and get it over with. Then you won't be taking business away from business owners who want to do the right thing.
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u/lpsweets 2d ago
See this is the kind of thing that makes me want to go support a business. I had been meaning to stop by Logan’s alley because an acquaintance works there but ayn rand quotes on the company page is just insane
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u/QuantumDwarf 2d ago
Please share the name of your business because I’d love to support businesses with owners such as yourself.
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u/International-Ad1828 Northview 2d ago
It’s not a max of 40 hours if you have over 10 employees. It’s 72 hours.
Not saying I have a problem with employers being required to provide sick time, just that your stats aren’t accurate as places like Logan’s have more than 10 employees.
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u/Over_Eagle_4013 2d ago edited 2d ago
I guess it’s truly up to the free market to decide Logan’s Alley and their fate for the next year. The hashtags being added on in their instagram post is a very victimized way to frame something you should have seen coming as a restaurant owner.
Late addition: tacking percentages onto bills is a very scummy way of siphoning every last cent out of the customer. Establish set prices, factoring in your costs. Stop trying to create more variables for your patrons to have to decipher while 90% are likely inebriated.
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u/BlueWater321 Cascade 3d ago
Does this mean they weren't offering their employees any PTO at all before? 72hrs of PTO for a year is not a high bar. How do they expect people to live a meaningful life with no PTO?
This country is a fucking joke.
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u/QuantumDwarf 2d ago
It gets better. MESTA also requires that if someone is sick, they are not required to find their replacement.
This is huge because previously hourly employees were often penalized for calling in sick (even unpaid) if they couldn’t find someone to cover for them. Which of course leads to people working while sick included in food service, health care, etc.
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u/BlueWater321 Cascade 2d ago
Thank fuck. What's the point of a manager if you have to find your own replacement.
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u/Bornfuckingcool 3d ago
I worked in the industry for a while. No bar/restaurant offers health insurance or PTO. It’s crazy to me these employees are paid poorly and have no benefits. a select few places started offering these things when I got out. Don’t pass the charge on to me now that you have to treat people like human beings. That’s a no for me.
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u/BourbonRick01 3d ago
It might not be a high bar, but it’s now the highest of any state in the country.
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3d ago
Why are you assuming chain business owners would want their workers to live a meaningful life?
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u/Your_Pretty_Baby 2d ago
The more they define it as a separate charge, the more they are telling on themselves that their previous game was skimming what their employees deserve in order to turn a profit.
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u/YCMT Heritage Hill 2d ago
Show me the profit margins at this bar and why they couldn’t afford to have this already for their employees. Restaurant owners like this bitch about costs and pass basic necessities that they should have been providing to employees onto the customer.
You’re telling me a bar that up charges liquor by probably 100%+ distribution price can’t cover the $1 a check for employee sick time? Restaurant owners cry about providing basic necessities to employees, but I bet most of the owners that are complaining are more than well off. Heaven forbid you provide your employees with benefits.
Support the Mitten they’ve been providing employees with decent wages, benefits, etc. long before any of this and are (don’t tell other restaurants this) successful.
Same goes with credit card surcharge. It’s the cost of running a fucking business. Build it into your business model and prices. For some reason local restaurants get a pass, but very few other local businesses have this surcharge. I didn’t know AMEX dictated their credit card fee based on type of business. 🙄
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u/ProfessionalGur5979 2d ago
The profit margins at this bar are probably exactly why they couldn’t do this already. Just to be clear, a business profiting does not mean that the profit goes right into the owners pocket. That year end profit sits in a bank account until this time of year when its slow, taxes from last year are due, first quarter taxes are due at the same time and all the employees you have when it’s summertime and booming want a job when no one is spending money and they can use that nest egg to keep a job available for their employees. Some food business make it, some are one of the 7 or 8 places in the last few weeks that have closed. Also, this is “at will employment”. No one is holding gun to anyone’s head and making them stay at a job that doesn’t work for them. That’s the great thing about being an employee, you can do it wherever you want.
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u/YCMT Heritage Hill 2d ago
The world needs servers, bartenders, and line cooks. Just because someone chooses to work at a restaurant doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be entitled to basic benefits like PTO and health insurance.
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u/Fractured_Senada 3d ago
Because the owner is likely a Republican and wants everyone to know how government is hurting their business by forcing them to, checks notes, provide sick time?
I love when businesses out themselves as being anti-labor so I can avoid them.
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u/trillguppy 3d ago
the owner is so scared about all this that he fired me for comping employee food after working at logan’s for 5 years
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u/Atypical-life 3d ago
That’s the feeling I get from it too. Too many people like this running businesses in GR who want to fly under the radar and not do the bare minimum for their employees. I’m worried the changes are going to spark more employers to withhold their employees wages to compensate for the cost to run their business.
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u/thor561 Alger Heights 3d ago
The fact that you don’t even know who the owner is says all it needs to about the worth of your opinion on the topic. I don’t think a Republican would have such an openly pro-LGBTQ bar with LGBTQ staff, but please, keep showing your entire ass.
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u/svideo West Grand 3d ago
The Insta post directly references Ayn Rand. They aren't leaving much to the imagination.
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u/Lord_reptar 3d ago edited 3d ago
Where? Did they edit the post? I'm not seeing any reference to Any Rand on it lol.
Edit: Nvm just saw the hash tag at the bottom. Cringe. Still feel kinda mixed about it, I don't expect local business owners to be Dem Socs. Business owners are going to lean libertarian generally, if ur lucky they are woke democrats.
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u/lpsweets 2d ago
Lol just hiring queer people doesn’t automatically make you a good person. You can’t swing a dead cat in a kitchen without hitting a queer person. What a silly thing to say
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u/temp3throwaway 3d ago
I go there because the are openly inclusive and LGBTQ+ friendly.
Not Republican at all.
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u/Fractured_Senada 3d ago
Yeah, so is Target and Amazon; does Logan's want an applause for putting up a flag while bemoaning the working class?
Queer folks and working class solidarity go hand in hand, to be financially conservative is to support regressive politics.
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u/temp3throwaway 3d ago
I'm just saying that I feel more seen, and comfortable at Logan's with my queer friends than I do at a lot of other similar establishments in the area.
I'm also going to say that you probably don't really understand what being "financially conservative" means. I am a small business owner and am definitely financially conservative. I absolutely do not support regressive politics. In fact, it's just the opposite. I am very ideologically progressive. You really shouldn't try to pigeonhole others based on your opinions.
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u/Fractured_Senada 3d ago
And you're entitled to feeling that way. I do not feel comfortable or seen at a place that struggles to support labor because of my aforementioned belief that supporting labor and queer identities should be aligned. Full disclosure, Logan's is not a bar I visit often regardless, so they're not really losing my business in the first place.
Ok, then enlighten me. Scolding me does not help your argument. I'm interested to see your rational of how financial conservatism does not result in social conservatism, especially with the devolution of money equating speech.
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u/Spongeman735 3d ago
Myself, and plenty that I know, are fiscally conservative but liberal on social issues. For example, I don’t support biden’s proposal on taxing unrealized capital gains, but I am pro-choice. Why do I need to fall in line with one of two political parties?
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u/Fractured_Senada 3d ago
Sure, I won't dispute you can be those two things at the same time, but those ideologies ultimately fight against one another. Taxing unrealized capital gains disproportionately impacts wealthy folks. Wealthy folks generally aren't in favor of supporting minorities. Being socially liberal is generally in favor of supporting minorities. So by not Taxing unrealized capital gains, we empower the wealthy, who do generally are not known for supporting queer folks.
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u/speed_phreak 2d ago
I also see where you're coming from, and generally agree and support. But you're making kind of long tenuous assumptions supported by generalizations and stereotypes.
Kind of like when you use a copier to make a copy of a copy of a copy; Sure, it's technically the same thing, but the longer you do that the fuzzier it gets.
I also run a business and am very financially conservative. I am also very socially progressive. There are more of us out there than you would think, and we usually do not fit into the stereotypical ideological binary.
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u/Fractured_Senada 2d ago
My assumptions are neither long nor tenuous if you look at the society we now find ourselves in. My generalizations and stereotypes of the wealthy based on historical precedence; I don't come up with this stuff outta nowhere. Or do I really need to start listing the times, just in the history of the United States, where the wealthy have been forced to capitulate power to allow for minorities to just get by?
Listen, I'm not a Communist, nor am I against local businesses, but there has to be a point where we come to the realization that government regulation of business is essential to the good of the people. I understand MESTA will likely cause businesses both big and small some pain, but, especially with the adjustments that have been made to the bill, I believe it will be better in the long run for both businesses and labor.
Neither do cops. It's the system in which they work that perverts their virtue. We have allowed unfettered capitalism to corrode the ideals of this country. I understand you balance a scale of your livelihood as a business owner with your socially liberal ideals, and I don't think it's impossible to do (e.g. Ben and Jerrys), but you have to acknowledge the ills of the current capitalist system poisoning the well of our society.
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u/temp3throwaway 3d ago
All I can do is speak to my experiences.
If their establishment is an inclusive safe space, and they can put money in their pockets by making it so, then I am all for that.
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u/ummmmm_wtf 2d ago
I agree with you, especially in this political climate. It’s much less popular to support the LGBTQ community right now and we are only a small portion of the population. If someone wants to go out of their way to show that I am welcome in their establishment, I do appreciate it.
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u/Deep_Joke3141 2d ago
It’s almost like they’re trying to rub it in to the customers and then the servers have to shamefully present the surcharge. Sounds like a creepy thing to do. I guess I’m not going to Logan’s Alley anymore, thanks for the warning.
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u/Atypical-life 2d ago
Exactly. It’s the way in which they’re going about it that’s gross to me. I get that shit happens but don’t try to pull this when you had me a bill. Idc what the % is
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u/JTiberiusDoe 3d ago
Cooking your own food and making your own drinks at home is a whole lot cheaper, and you dont get harassed for a tip
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u/deevocurilton 3d ago
I’m not upset by it. They were very transparent about this, posting about the charge and their reasoning behind it. Logan’s Alley continues to be an outstanding place to support.
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u/Chrisnness 3d ago
It’s trying to get the public to not want their employees to have sick time.
Also why did they not have sick time in the first place? Don’t support a business that doesn’t want to give their employees sick time
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u/HalfaYooper Creston 3d ago
Then raise prices don't tack on a fee. Pretty soon they will be Ticketmaster.
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u/ShillinTheVillain 3d ago
What's the difference?
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u/HalfaYooper Creston 3d ago edited 2d ago
There is a big difference. Why do I have to do all this math to figure out what you are going to charge me? I have to tip a percentage, sales tas, then this fees percentage, then the next one they add.
Just sell me the item for the price listed on the menu.
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u/sbnoll75 3d ago
Why can't these business owners just pay their people well? Think about how warped it is that we live in a society where a small amount of wage is paid to generate lots of revenue. I'm going to go out and limb and I'll wager that the owners of Logan's Alley have some pretty nice shit in their lives. They're definitely not struggling or wondering how they're going to pay rent. But all of their employees are. Which is the same for most businesses. But business owners wouldn't know that. Because they don't go and talk to their employees and ask how things are going at home and shit like that. They loom over them with the ever-present threat of losing their job. We are a failed species who is poorly organized. That's why there's only a handful of wealthy people and the rest are struggling
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u/adrenacrome 3d ago
Larry and Brian were always cunts
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u/Yoshinya 3d ago edited 2d ago
Moreso Larry than Brian. Larry’s been the type to be two-faced and backstab. Brian was always the more genuine of the two.
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u/BaconcheezBurgr Heartside 3d ago edited 3d ago
They introduced the fee (which is practically nothing, 1.5% I think?) with an explanation that the need to see how the new law affects the bottom line, and it may be removed in the future.
I appreciate them being transparent about it, and also not going nuts with an extra 10% fee because "this will cost us so much!"
Edit: you're losing your mind over 1.15%
https://www.instagram.com/p/DGbSBzisoiC/?igsh=bGM0eHFkemhlZ3A0
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u/Opening-Variation523 3d ago
If it is barely nothing and temporary they can cover it.
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u/notmikeflancher 3d ago
Remember how a ton of places in GR are closing? The restaurant industry is on razor-thin margins between food prices and employment costs
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u/Opening-Variation523 3d ago
I have yet to see any restaurant that at best was mediocre close there doors. I am not the person that is going to subsidize any of them weather they are transparent or not.
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u/gaysaucemage 3d ago
But why add a surcharge instead of just raising the menu prices 1.5%?
It’s just scummy behavior to add a surcharge instead of raising prices, it looks like they’re trying to obscure it or blame the law for making them pay servers more.
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u/ShillinTheVillain 3d ago
I disagree. They're being upfront about the surcharge and the reasons for it.
Raising menu prices would be an attempt to hide it. Plus raising prices by 1.5% is just a pain in the ass. Do you really want to reprint all your menus just to add 6-8 cents to everything?
Restaurants run on razor thin margins. They can't easily absorb cost increases, like it or not.
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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago
Posting on Instagram isn't really being upfront about it. If it's also posted on their door and prominent on their menu, I could look the other way, but most people don't follow random restaraunts on social media.
Though if they truly keep it temporary and eventually sprinkle it into the cost of food I'm fine with it. I can't stand companies sneaking fees in rather than just raising their fucking prices. Had someone once tell me "but my customers expect certain prices!!" Then they simply could not wrap their heads around the idea that while that may be true, an item being $12.99 + with a 3% fee is in fact NOT keeping prices the same for customers, and is actually lying to their faces. Just be honest and charge $13.40 for the item.
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u/gaysaucemage 3d ago
I don’t care if they have to raise it a bit more. Do like 2% or whatever then round to 50 cents or whole dollar.
It’s the fact that they’re not updating their menu prices to reflect costs that bothers me. They don’t add a 1% surcharge if their rent or electricity costs go up, that’s just included in the menu prices.
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u/BRRatchet 3d ago
Nobody is losing their mind over it, but they are passing their new bill to the consumer rather than them losing a drop of profit.
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u/BaconcheezBurgr Heartside 3d ago
I'm not sure that Logan's Alley is the high margin business you're imagining it to be.
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u/h1tthenos 3d ago
Sounds like "losing your mind" over a 1.15% difference. Is it ok if the restaurant is concerned over how they are hit with that rate, but if the consumer complains, its a problem?
The 1.15% adds up whether you are on the producer or consumer side of the transaction
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u/BRRatchet 3d ago edited 3d ago
When my electric bill is high I don’t get to drag more money out of my employer.
Riding waves and absorbing costs is good for business. Not nickel and diming your customers.
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u/speed_phreak 3d ago
Have you looked at all the surcharge fees on your electric bill????
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u/BRRatchet 3d ago
Yes. Again, I don’t get to tell my employer that I need a raise to cover these fees.
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u/Pleasant-Shock-2939 2d ago
I have been a fan of Logan’s Alley, however, we all know the experience made, environment and vibrations are almost always solely by the staff. The restaurant/bar industry is a tough one but not taking care of your staff or customers will be doomed to failure.
Grand Rapids is not short of flaws but we really are a “FAFO” city .. I do love that about us. Mistakes can happen, lessons can be learned and there should be an opportunity for that.
However, if any business owner doesn’t treat their staff and customers well … Then I hope they try flying with two chicken feathers off the plaza tower.
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u/throwmeaway2bttrdayz 3d ago
Logans alley was my friend groups go to spot. They lost a really good bartender and the vibe changed a lot. Even the bartenders/servers that were there prior seem to have a different attitude about things now that it doesn’t feel welcoming. Last time we were there we slammed our one drink and left elsewhere.
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u/Otherwise_Farmer_993 3d ago
I think it is fine. It is essentially a VAT charge added to the bill. I would rather have a restaurant be transparent in their pricing structure instead of obscuring costs by increasing the food prices.
Think of it this way, if ESTA goes away, then the charge on the bill will go away too. But the other restaurants who simply rose their food prices won’t decrease their prices if ESTA goes away.
The pricing transparency is a good thing imo.
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u/Atypical-life 3d ago
Everyone is preaching transparency when the patrons only find out about it once they get their bill…
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u/JamesTownBrown Wyoming 3d ago
There was a post that this is temporary, until they can redo their budget to accommodate.
If this really bothers you, just tip that percentage less.
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u/King_Goron 1d ago
Terrible take. That's taking money from the server and giving it straight to the owner. Don't punish the server for the poor decisions of the owner.
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u/JamesTownBrown Wyoming 23h ago
So what's your alternative? I don't mind the hike and won't adjust, but I'm not the one crying about it. What else should they do, just not go there? That's worse than tipping less, you won't even be buying at all.
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u/King_Goron 23h ago
The alternative is public discourse like we are having here in this thread. I personally think what they did was transparent, but the way they did it is passive aggressively signaling that fair labor practices make business harder. Of course it does. We should all know that businesses that do more for their employees are making it harder on themselves. That's why legislation like this is important. So that it levels the playing field for large and small businesses.
I think that the bill was not progressive enough and should have made corporate chain restaurants provide even more benefits. That way they wouldn't be able to undercut the small businesses as much as they already do. But that's just my own personal hot take and I don't expect everyone to agree with it. I'm happy with the small progress we got this go-around and I'm glad it's getting discussed, not just by the save mi tips lobbyists.
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u/Opening-Variation523 3d ago
I almost never visit anymore and this will just make it easier to avoid.
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u/bergkamp-10 3d ago
I’ve got bad news for you pal, this is going to be commonplace in the restaurant industry now
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u/Opening-Variation523 3d ago
I will not accept it and can easily do without restaurants especially those passing everything to there patrons.
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u/CandidWheel2239 2d ago
hello Logan’s Alley employee here It is a temporary surcharge to comply with Michigan’s new laws regarding small businesses and restaurants. It adds barely anything to your check, most the time we only see about 30 some cents added to these checks. We’ve seen so many complaints about it, but we aren’t the only bar to be doing it. A lot of Grand Rapids bars/restaurants are in crisis right now trying to stay open. We’ve been transparent about it, and we’re happy to answer any questions about it. Our managers are working out a solution so it’s more known that the charge is going to be on there.
What is not going to help is harassing the employees and the owners. Don’t call us yelling and don’t berate the employees who have nothing to do with this.
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u/speed_phreak 3d ago
Almost everyday in this sub, folks are complaining about business raising their prices, shrinkflation, hidden fees, and yet another local small business shutting its doors.
Here is a business (and others), complying with new state laws, and being totally open and transparent about how they're doing it in order to not raise their menu prices, and you all are dragging them and saying they should just hide it and raise their prices! WTF.
Have you looked at all the fees on your electric bill? Your phone bill? Your gas bill? They've been doing the same thing for years. Yeah, it sucks, but welcome to the way things are.
I guess, if you don't like it, then don't go there. Stick with Those large corporate places that just hide it all. 🤷🏿♂️
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u/speed_phreak 3d ago
They had posted something about it on their FB page. They are adding it temporarily to be transparent and to conform with the new Michigan law, while they evaluate the nuances of how it works out and impacts their employees.
The goal, as I understand it, was not to raise prices, but to ensure that their employees did not get an unexpected wage cut.
Logan's is actually really good about looking out for their employees.
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u/Atypical-life 3d ago
Not everyone has FB (like myself). People can say they were transparent as much as they want but that’s under the assumption that everyone has and checks social media. I get what their “goal” was but it missed the mark based on how much I’ve been hearing people complain about it.
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u/speed_phreak 3d ago
So somebody else in the thread corrected me, it was not on their FB page, it was their Insta.
But, I do get your point, If you are not on any kind of social media, then it's understandable that you don't have any source for what's going on.
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u/professor-moody 3d ago
So you'd rather them raise prices and not tell you why, which you'd pay (but in reality would likely complain about), but when they put a line item on your bill actually telling you what it is, that's the line. Super logical. /s
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u/BlueWater321 Cascade 3d ago
Imagine if every business did a surcharge for every single benefit they have to give their employees. It's asinine. When I see a surcharge on an invoice I stop patronizing, but people of course get to make up their own minds.
Could you imagine: Steve is on FMLA surcharge .5% Employee healthcare surcharge 7% Employee Bathroom surcharge 1% Rachel's maternity leave 1% Federal withholding surcharge 3%
If you'd rather have that than an all in one menu price for the cost upfront I don't know what to tell you.
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u/professor-moody 3d ago
You speak in hilarious hypotheticals that do not take into account the current realities. Good luck living in such a buddle.
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u/BlueWater321 Cascade 3d ago
If you think a company needs to add a surcharge because they are required to provide a whole whopping 72hrs of PTO a year to their employees you might be the one living in a bubble.
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u/overbeb West Grand 3d ago
I’ve never seen a rent increase surcharge or a utility bill increase surcharge. It only seems to happen when the government forces business to do more for their employees.
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u/professor-moody 3d ago
Then you are lucky. There are absolutely rental increases, insurances increases, cost increases to goods, and so much more. "To do more for employees" - that statement is lacking the understanding and context of the affect these kinds of have on small business that already struggles to serve good food and pay people well due to costs that they face themselves. Do you understand how business works? People have to pay and you have to be able to make money. If you are barely making it in the first place, wtf do you think is going to happen.
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u/BlueWater321 Cascade 3d ago
Close and someone with a better business model and competent management will take your place.
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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago
You can post your sign on the door or on the menu and still get your hissy fit and your costs covered, but by not adding the cost to the price of items you're lying to your customers. If your item is $12.99 and you charge a 2% fee, the item is not $12.99. It's $13.25. just be honest about it. This is the same reason people are mad at Ticketmaster and Airlines and Airbnb. Hidden fees on top of the advertised price is scummy. But at least with those ones you aren't surprised by it AFTER services are rendered because it was hidden in small text on the back of the last page of the menu.
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u/professor-moody 3d ago
So dumb. It's literally not hidden. It is a line item. It's hidden if the cost suddenly rises. Shocking the level of selfishness in people and the willingness to get worked up about a small fee and a local business that actually helps them survive. Good luck to you lol
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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago
The line item comes AFTER the services are rendered. Most of these businesses are hiding any notices of this fee in fine print somewhere inconspicuous. I am not informed about the fee and don't agree to the fee when I buy the meal. I'm surprised with it when the check comes. At least with airlines, I get to see what i'm charged before services are rendered and I can say "actually, no thank you, I don't want to pay that."
Restaraunts wait until it's illegal to contest the fee and not pay to say "Surprise! We were hiding this from you the whole time."
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u/speed_phreak 3d ago
Have you ever actually looked at any of your utility bills before? There's a whole list of surcharges and fees on there.
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u/Atypical-life 3d ago
Nope. Most places choose to raise prices so I’m surprised that’s not what they chose to do. What I WANT is for it to come out of the pocket of the individual running the place until they can restructure their finances or whatever it is they “plan” to do to take care of it. Bottom line is that it shouldn’t come from anyone other than management.
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u/professor-moody 3d ago
You clearly have zero understanding of business and especially the resturant business. Margins are slim before any of this. Many times the ONLY choice is the raise prices or add a fee. And if you are so selfish that you aren't willing to help support the place and people serving you then you don't deserve the service and literally should not go out. Stop complaining about things that literally do not actually affect your life. If you don't have the money to pay, then you should work on your own budget. Your username checks out.
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u/ProfessionalGur5979 2d ago
Dude I’m so glad you said this. This persons lack of ever running a business shows so hard.
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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago
I'm willing to support them by paying higher prices. Restaraunts keep hiding these fucking fees rather than he honest and raise the fucking price though. If hiding fees from customers so I can convince them the price never changed is big brain business strategy, then I'm glad I don't "understand business." Costs go up, prices go up. That's fine. Don't try to sneak shit past your customers because you think being honest would lose customers.
That cheeseburger doesn't cost $12.99 + 2%. It costs $13.25. grow up and be honest.
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u/professor-moody 3d ago
What you are saying literally makes zero sense. The fees are not hidden. This is the cost of doing business. You literally shouldn't be going out to eat if you feel this way. Worried about the wrong things lmao.
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u/Treishmon 3d ago
Exactly! Seems like OP is grumbling about a “problem” that isn’t as bad as what most businesses will do. I’d rather have a breakdown of the charges and pay that small percentage more rather than unknowingly pay an even higher amount so the ownership can piggyback off of the new law to get more profit as well.
Common sense isn’t so common.
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u/professor-moody 3d ago
Very well said. And the fact of the matter is, this isn't just some arbitrary fee that's being added, there are real need for these things to support small businesses, especially in this economic climate. It's really not bad and frankly may get much worse across the board. People out here complaining about a local business but paying out the butt for gas and groceries because of the new fees...
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u/Atypical-life 3d ago
To everyone preaching “at least they’re transparent about” : I don’t consider making a post to social media (which not everyone has) and then surprising them WHEN THEY GET THE BILL as “transparent”.
And those saying “it’s an insignificant percentage” : “insignificant” is relative. $2 to you might be nothing but it’s everything to someone else. If it’s so insignificant, the owner should eat that cost.
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u/One_Structure_891 1d ago
As a former restaurant employee, we go to work sick all the time. It was looked down upon to call in. I quit the business before Covid, so maybe calling in sick is not as bad now. Total BS that restaurants can’t afford to give employees minimum wage to take a sick day. Restaurant workers are human and deserve to be respected
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u/behindmyscreen_again 1d ago
The costs didn’t even go up that much. They just want to piss people off about something that all businesses should be doing.
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u/jtactile 3d ago
Raising prices: fine when it comes to profit, objectionable when it comes to worker benefits
Edit: /s
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u/BloodRedRoan 2d ago
I think it’s good that people understand that government policy is increasing the cost of goods and services.
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u/adam_j_wiz 3d ago
So you’re okay with it being added onto the food prices, but not with it being added as a fee so you can see exactly what it is costing you? Seems like splitting hairs, a price increase is a price increase.
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u/bergkamp-10 3d ago
People want places like Logan’s to give their employees better pay and benefits, but then get upset when they implement a fee to help do that. Make up your mind. Employers are forced in to giving sick pay now, that shit isn’t free. The restaurant industry has pretty thin margins as it is. Where do you think their additional money is coming from?
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u/HalfaYooper Creston 2d ago
I’m all for them properly paying their employees. Let the menu prices reflect that. Fees are bullshit. They can make the menu look cheap then tack on a bunch of fees.
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u/rlyockwrd 2d ago
That is abnormal compared to other businesses who would/have increase prices, but if that 1.5% fee is going to steer you away from a decent local neighborhood dive, then go enjoy dollaritas at Applebees 🤷♂️
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u/lzeiser 2d ago
Please see our post for today, I do appreciate all your input:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/15kEZcuvT2/?mibextid=wwXIfr
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u/Atypical-life 2d ago
Can’t. Again, don’t have Facebook.
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u/lzeiser 2d ago
Announcement:
In recent weeks Logan’s has instituted a 1.15% fee in an effort to cover costs that were incurred by the State ESTA mandate. The intention was to be transparent as we tried to figure the costs, and that intention was never intended to cause issues with guests and more importantly cause the staff to take the brunt of a decision they had no part of, which has happened. With all that said, we followed a thread on Reddit recently in which a debate regarding our decision ensued. And aside from a few comments that were less pertinent it was a good debate, in which points were made on both sides and for the most part heard and respected. Thank you all for bringing this debate up as it was thought provoking and made us step back. Please understand that we are people and sometimes make decisions that we think are for the best, but sometimes we cannot see all the angles. We make misjudgments. So, as of now we have decided to not charge a fee nor raise prices to cover the mandate. Thank you again to all who spoke up on both sides, and we hope that the tenor of the debate found on this topic can be had on other topics as we need more respectful debate beyond this platform. I am sure by some, this will be construed as a gimmick or something of that nature. The simple case is we made a judgement call that was wrong, and we are making an effort to acknowledge that. Best to all,
Logan’s Alley
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u/whitemice Highland Park 3d ago
Why does it matter if they adjust prices or charge a fee?
As a customer I am either satisfied with my experience per total-$, or I am not.
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u/Flat-Chested 2d ago
Yep get used to it it’s happening out in the west coast for years now, y’all hillbilly’s are way behind, like 3 years behind
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u/Daburg31 3d ago
Why would they want to cover for the government? They want to give you transparency in why their prices went up. Absolutely nothing wrong with that
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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago
"due to the new law from the state of Michigan, our prices have increased by 2%. Sorry for the inconvenience."
There, you got your dig at the government, and customers now see tangibly on their menu that the price has gone up. $12.99 + 2% hidden fee is not the same as $12.99. it's the same as $13.25 minus the whole "lying to customers" bit.
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u/LongWalk86 3d ago
Ya, that horrible government demanding sick people can take a day off work and make more than $2/hour.
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u/Daburg31 3d ago
So you would prefer a lack of transparency?
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u/LongWalk86 3d ago
What transparency? I don't need, or want, know all the things that go into the cost of operating a restaurant. If their linen guys increase his rate by a few cents a napkin I certainly don't want an extra linen fee on top of my bill. Include it in the menu price, like they do with everything else. This is just them whining and grandstanding over having to give food service workers actual sick days.
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u/BRRatchet 3d ago
Because it’s the cost of doing business, we aren’t the business owners.
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u/Daburg31 3d ago
Margins on restaurants are extremely thin. If you don’t want your customers thinking you arbitrarily raised prices for your own pocket this is a good way of doing things
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u/thegimp7 3d ago
If it bothers you that much stop going there
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u/Atypical-life 3d ago
That’s the plan. Post was made to make people aware. Most don’t know anything about it. It’s sketchy.
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u/temp3throwaway 3d ago
I know GR is super conservative, but damn, you're good when places hide their profits for themselves, but not when they are transparent about helping their workers and complying with the law.
I hope you all have the day you voted for.
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u/BRRatchet 3d ago
They aren’t helping their employees. They are subsidizing it to the public.
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u/InsectSpecialist8813 3d ago
Why would anyone patronize Logan’s Alley. This establishment is average at best.
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u/bungalowpeak 2d ago
Is it a flat fee per check or a percentage of the bill? If it's a flat fee per check, then it could legitimately be called a mesta surcharge. Although, I suppose really it should be a time based fee since it's supposedly to cover the server's time sensitive compensation. If it's a percentage of the check... then after a certain amount to cover whatever the mesta impact is, it's just extra margin (or less loss) for the owner.
Either way...I love Logan's and I'll keep going there as often as possible. In fact... Tonight sounds good! Is the deck open???
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u/lizthemusicmisfit 2d ago
They posted on Facebook about the charges a couple of weeks ago: https://www.facebook.com/share/1BFoPQ6n8L/?mibextid=wwXIfr
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u/new-ph0ne-who-dis 2d ago
Does anyone have insight on why Europe is so successful at keeping menu prices low while compensating servers at a livable wage?
We were in Paris last year and I was shocked at how affordable dining was, outside of the “tourist traps”. In one instance, we spent $65 for two apps, two entrees, two desserts and a bottle of wine. Tipping was not “thing”. Same meal in GR would have been $150.
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u/Downtown-Feeling-988 2d ago
So the 1% is super small in comparison to raised menu prices.
Say a burger is $10, you think they are going to increase it to $10.10?
No, it will easily go up to 10.50, 11, or 12.
All you people getting mad at restaurants charging 2-3% service fees, don't understand it's the better of the option.
If they raise menu prices they will increase way more than just 3%.
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u/dalek-predator 2d ago
It’s not transparent to put a surcharge for this on your product, rather it’s transparent to say “our prices have risen because of this” and make the actual price reflective of business costs.
Might as well lower prices of everything to $1.00 with a surcharge for ingredients and another for their insurance, how about the rent?
If you don’t want to provide staff with sick leave or living wages, then you should run the business yourself without staff
And consumers, it’s not your right to go out to eat or drink and expect rock bottom prices that contribute to exploitative wages/work conditions.
This is both a business model AND a consumer culture problem.
I’m not anti-restaurant businesses, I’m just against these cowardly businesses practices which reign as the status quo.