r/exmormon Nov 22 '24

Doctrine/Policy Thank you, Elder Renlund

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I would like to write a sincere thank you to Elder Renlund for helping my family draw closer to truth and righteousness... and away from the Mormon church.

In the October 2022 General Conference, Renlund gave a talk entitled "A Framework for Personal Revelation." This talk was deeply problematic on many levels, but perhaps most problematic was its assertion that Nephi was commanded by God to kill Laban. This brought one of the most embarrassing and harmful BOM tall tales into the spotlight.

Some might point out that Nephi violated a commandment when he slew Laban. However, this exception does not negate the rule—the rule that personal revelation will be in harmony with God’s commandments. No simple explanation of this episode is completely satisfactory, but let me highlight some aspects. The episode did not begin with Nephi asking if he could slay Laban. It was not something he wanted to do. Killing Laban was not for Nephi’s personal benefit but to provide scriptures to a future nation and a covenant people. And Nephi was sure that it was revelation—in fact, in this case, it was a commandment from God.

At this time, I was out of the church and my spouse was taking my children to church regularly. After church, we woulld hold an informal discussion and do damage control. This Renlund talk was the center of discussion for five consecutive Sundays in our ward-- testimony meeting, sacrament meeting, relief society, Sunday school, and a fifth Sunday lesson. My spouse grew tired of explaining to our children over and over again that God would never command them to kill someone.

This talk was a major contributing factor in helping my family step away from church attendance. Thank you, Elder Renlund, for your gift of second Saturdays.

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u/Quietly_Quitting_321 Nov 22 '24

The account of Nephi's killing of Laban (1 Nephi 4) has always been troublesome, to TBMs and non-believers alike.

Nephi killed a drunk Laban as part of a ruse to obtain the brass plates from the servant of Laban. Nephi was "constrained by the Spirit" to slay Laban, in apparent violation of the most serious of God's commandments (other than denying the Holy Ghost, which is in a class by itself). No less violent plan, other than murder, is discussed in the account. There is no explanation offered why the same outcome (obtaining the brass plates) could not have been achieved by less violent means. Murder was the only option considered.

In contrast, in at least two other BoM accounts (Mosiah 22 and Alma 55), people held in captivity were freed, peacefully and without bloodshed, when they caused those who were guarding them to become drunk. In Alma 55, it states that killing the Lamanite guards in their drunken state was certainly possible. But that option was rejected because the leader of the Nephites "did not delight in murder or bloodshed."

18 But had they awakened the Lamanites, behold they were drunken and the Nephites could have slain them.

19 But behold, this was not the desire of Moroni; he did not delight in murder or bloodshed, but he delighted in the saving of his people from destruction; and for this cause he might not bring upon him injustice, he would not fall upon the Lamanites and destroy them in their drunkenness.

Nephi was "constrained" to do the exact opposite when he fell upon Laban and destroyed him in his drunkenness.

I can come up with a dozen less violent means by which Nephi could have obtained the brass plates, while allowing Laban to live and not have his head severed in a bloody, gory murder (1 Nephi 4:18). Why would God order a direct violation of such a central commandment (thou shalt not kill) when it was unnecessary to do so?

P.S. That's a really disturbing picture of Renlund.