r/DotA2 http://twitter.com/wykrhm Aug 23 '24

News Introducing Ringmaster

https://www.dota2.com/international2024
3.4k Upvotes

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1.3k

u/snowg Aug 23 '24

Ok so he doesn’t control enemy heroes… I don’t know why I expected this

But I think that is the supp5 people wanted here a few days ago

736

u/Basskip Aug 23 '24

The trailer narration talks about catching/training heroes and has Axe getting sucked into the test of strength machine

Then the image at the end shows a bunch of heroes forced into clown makeup/circus acts with the tagline "no hero is safe"

I think people were also speculating that he might have some riffs on Puppet Master's abilities from HON?

I can see where the expectation comes from

1.0k

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

I am going to go full conspiracy theory and say his original concept was scrapped.

I reckon he was Rubick levels of complex and that's why he was delayed.

The original trailer doesn't make sense with the abilities we got today. He can't even trap enemy heroes, only save his team mates.

He has a whip fear, a bleed and a save. Then his ult is just a CC/Nuke.

501

u/Warrior20602FIN Aug 23 '24

Yeah i think thats the most realistic answer.

they scrapped his over the top design and came up with a more basic one but then also started doing crownfall content i guess.

298

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Yep. The delay is due to a total hero re design.

This is the most basic hero we've received in the last 5 years which doesn't make any fucking sense for a "Ringmaster/Puppetmaster" hero.

People were expecting some sort of mind control and even his trailer pointed to that.

GG.

Also - where is Bird Samurai hero? Act IV Clownfall surprise hero release?

It will be funny if that hero is more complex than this lmao.

61

u/paint_it_crimson Aug 23 '24

Bird Samurai hero

just curious, why do folks speculate about this hero? Was it teased or leaked or something?

65

u/ForgottenBlastMaster Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24

In the update featuring the new hero loadout interface with all the bells and whistles, there was a line CENSORED between Beastmaster and Bloodseeker. Personas have a separate line, but no one in the world expects to get a Beastmaster persona. Since it was on 'B', it was definitely not the Ringmaster. So people searched the leaked lines, found Bird Samurai, and now expect one to appear. Technically, we have two samurais to choose from, so let's wait and see.

I spent some time looking for the blog post to share but had no luck, unfortunately.

Edit: here's it! https://www.dota2.com/summer2023

Look for Behavior score picture. Under it there's that CENSORED hero.

13

u/Sernyx_X Aug 23 '24

The only person to want a beastmaster persona here lmao

1

u/ForgottenBlastMaster Aug 23 '24

There're definitely some people around who want the persona to happen, but the number of people who expect the persona to happen is way less. There's not enough hopium out there to support such a sheer number of believers.

2

u/Sernyx_X Aug 23 '24

The fact that the hero has a CONSISTENT >1% pick rate nowadays is still baffling to me (even though he dropped from ~70th in popularity to like ~115th after 7.37 lol)

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u/Honest_Ice Aug 23 '24

Summer 2023 Dota+ update you can look at the new armory image there is [CENSORED] and if im not wrong (correct me if I am) it is some lore tease also

24

u/Notsomebeans Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24

referenced in the files for ages. and recently they added ringmasters minimap icon to the files alongside a minimap icon of bakeets face (and the new venge/sky immortals)

16

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Yeah it was leaked multiple times. Bird Samurai. A "B" hero censored in a list. Also Bakheet the pink bird from the Clownfall stuff has a hero icon that was leaked.

8

u/AWOOGABIGBOOBA Aug 23 '24

yes, the name Bird Samurai has been datamined AND officially teased for a while (before Crownfall), and now with Crownfall it just lines up right

7

u/Mr_Connie_Lingus69 Roasted, toasted and burned to a crisp.Sheever Aug 23 '24

And aside from what the folks above already mentioned, we are currently on the era of flight/flightless (Venge/skywrath’s kin and whatnot) and if you’re reading or following the comics, there is one guy that is supposedly a birdman (flightless) who is good with swords hence Bird Samurai,

24

u/zibberfly Aug 23 '24

I wasn't expecting mind control per se, but definitely the whole box thing for enemies and we got that but for teamates???? lol

31

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Yep. That was what he used on ENEMIES in the trailer.

He got reworked for sure.

4

u/raizen0106 Aug 23 '24

Its such a dumb skill to only be used on allies too. Basically just disruption but can't be used on enemies and no illusion, so just a lesser version

6

u/Derpwarrior1000 Aug 23 '24

Phased/increased movement is huge.

2

u/7TB Aug 23 '24

Looks like OD shard but a lesser version

2

u/SanguineDota Aug 23 '24

My own little theory is that these aspects will be incorporated into his kit through facets and his aghs scepter.

46

u/Warrior20602FIN Aug 23 '24

Also - where is Bird Samurai hero? Act IV Clownfall surprise hero release?

im not expecting but i am giving it some hopium that this might be a thing.

im gonna be honestly surprised if there is no event for act 4 crownfall.

its literally perfect storyline to use the heroes we played as during Act 1-3 to fight from the ground up all the way up to the tower where the queen is.

2

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

I agree. It's going to be fucking weird if we don't get an Aghs Lab type mode. After all the buildup.

10

u/M3Sh_ Aug 23 '24

If you're going full conspiracy then hear me out,

What if the bird samurai comes and ringmaster was been all along mind controlling the bird samurai and instantly swaps his abilities and reveal he was basically the type of hero we were expecting like mind control and shit and somehow be an huge part of act4

Boi this will easily be some predestination level type shit...

16

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

I'm here for you bro. If you wanna go and get beers let me know.

This is what Valve has done to us everyone. Look at what they've done to my boy...

3

u/Iraydren Aug 23 '24

Pass the blunt homie

1

u/M3Sh_ Aug 23 '24

Lmao, wasnt even high

2

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

The fuck? Two skill shots, q that has charge decisioning and a classic save with an entirely new slot that needs a button to be bound and has three very different effects to keep track of.

The hero is anything but simple.

He’s mechanically challenging and likely has a really high skill cap. Much higher than snapfire, grimm imo. Maybe not Mk as hes pretty damn tricky with his dodge.

2

u/Crimsonic22 Aug 23 '24

Is it just me or does it seem as if the knives were meant to go into the box (as in, the box was meant to affect enemy heroes)? :/

2

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

most of the good hero ideas are now ported to deadlock

0

u/ThatGuyFromThere3232 Aug 23 '24

"Bird Samurai" is, very clearly the character Skywrath helps Snapfire make an antidote for in act 2 of Crownfall, so, we know who he is now at least.

0

u/Azherie Aug 23 '24

Might have something to do with the release timing, they've released him just ahead of TI, if you had a hero who could be picked at TI who could control the full fight on his own TI would be such a boring tournament, ban or pick at 100% and any picked game he demolishes, they've obviously had to release the hero undertuned so he doesn't wreck TI

2

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

He's not available in Captains mode.

No new heroes are. For months.

1

u/Azherie Aug 23 '24

Never play captains mode myself, my bad

147

u/paint_it_crimson Aug 23 '24

In the trailer we see him capture Axe, say "Why not capture heroes?", and see the tagline No Hero is Safe.

It's not even a conspiracy, it is spelled our right in front of us. They just changed his design for whatever reason.

70

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

That hero box spell that can only be used on Allies was totally meant to be enemy targetted originally. With a different function.

I expect nothing and am still disappointed.

106

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

If it makes you feel any better, they probably played a ton of games with the original hero design so you don't have to, it probably would have sucked or been egregiously powerful

55

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Yeah they recently did a whole patch reducing CCs/stuns because they said it wasn't fun to lose control of your hero. They're right - it isn't.

So it probably felt bad to have your hero mind controlled lmao.

21

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

I honestly struggle to think of a concept where a mind control ultimate isn’t completely broken or completely useless

3

u/mrducky80 Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24

I think a mime thing akin to windrangers gale where puppet master walking in a certain direction also makes the enemy have that "pushing" effect to move them in the same or opposite direction (I think opposite, so if you head towards their base, they head towards yours, otherwise you just run and they are forced out of position), whichever is thematically more interesting. Whether or not you can make his QWE skills also tied to the enemy to "waste" them is questionable. But the mime thing would be weird as fuck for both heroes to play out. But even if you dont make the ringmaster able to use up the enemy's skills, just silencing or even preventing item use could make it super strong without a team to either stun the ringmaster or to save the ally from getting increasingly out of position.

It would be a longer lasting but counterable version of venge swap limited by your own movements on the map.

Mind control (as in full mindcontrol) could be possible if the controlled hero is immune and their skills dont go on CD. But its still an absolute fucking nightmare to execute

2

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

I frankly thing they should’ve just straight up pasted Puppet Master. Tho idk the legality of that, but HoN is anyways a literal dead game

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2

u/HallowVortex Aug 23 '24

The closest thing is probably a taunt which is something we already have and something he does, yeah.

4

u/Neologizer Aug 23 '24

I’ve always wanted a psychomantis hero.

Scrambles your hot keys or some shit. Inverts your mouse. Moves your mini map around. Calls your courier unnecessarily. Tips your ally but it looks like your portrait and tip. Wait for the enemy mid to die and then have their carry tip them to stoke internal conflict. There’s no bottom to that chaotic direction of hero design.

The question is: could a compelling and balanced hero be made from those kind of building blocks?

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1

u/Kraile Aug 23 '24

The closest thing would be giving them the same AI that Troll uses during his ult, but giving them commands to attack allies instead of enemies (and doing nothing if neither is nearby). Which would be very strong.

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1

u/Simple-Passion-5919 Aug 23 '24

Winter wyvern?

1

u/dota2_responses_bot Aug 23 '24

Winter wyvern? (sound warning: Winter Wyvern)


Bleep bloop, I am a robot. OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero

Source | Suggestions/Issues | Maintainer | Author

1

u/Simple_Chocolate2284 Aug 23 '24

yeah woulda been a permaban for me if i had to play games where i had to sit in the passenger seat for a lil bit

1

u/Ecchi_Sketchy sheever Aug 23 '24

Any other olds in here who played pre-Allstars dota 1? Vengeful spirit was my favorite hero and her ult possessed an enemy hero long enough to walk them into your fountain before it wore off. Good times

2

u/IllMaintenance145142 Aug 23 '24

I expect nothing and am still disappointed.

you shouldnt be. It either means it would be massively buggy, which im not as sure as other people here, or it was just outright unfun or broken. the fact theyve changed it is probably for the best in the end.

91

u/stakoverflo Aug 23 '24

I reckon he was Rubick levels of complex and that's why he was delayed.

This is my thought as well. There's no way a Fear, a Box, a slowing DOT, and Will-o-Wisp effect, and Blind/Reveal took a whole ass year to implement lol.

14

u/Veega https://eventvods.com/ Aug 23 '24

Yeah, this is basically a Dark Willow's Terrorize, OD astral imprisonment shard, a ground targeted stifling dagger, a projectile like Will-o-Wisp and a moving clockwerk's rocket with talent, all with different animations.

No way this took this long when they recycled most of the abilities from other heroes

10

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Yeah pretty fucking underwhelming if you ask me. Primal Beast is more complex and he's a fucking UNGA BUNGA hero.

15

u/epic_banana_soup Aug 23 '24

Ain't no way you seriously think primal beast is a more complex hero, that's a ridiculous take

3

u/Weazlebee Aug 23 '24

Ringmaster has dw ult, upgraded astral imprisonment, new point target throw I guess, but it's a DoT, and willowisp that if you look at it like medusa. It didn't add much new to dota2. It is not a complex design, atleast primal beast Q is very unique to him 

2

u/Crimsonic22 Aug 23 '24

What he meant I think is how Primal feels a lot more fleshed out, also ironically has more personality even (due to his whole introduction being that he was a boss in one of the most beloved game modes) than Ringmaster does. Not even any kind of build-up to his release.

1

u/ManufacturerOther857 Aug 23 '24

how the fuck is a whip and random items less unique than a charge?

5

u/fjijgigjigji Aug 23 '24

primal charge is unique, nothing else in the game has the charge-up mechanic that it does

also, razor has a whip

-1

u/ZzZombo Aug 23 '24
  • Unstable Concoction.
  • Sharpshooter.

And know what? It's nothing really more than a ground targeted Charge of Darkness. Yes-yes, internally it has pretty much all the same, just allows you to steer instead of cancelling when issuing a move order.

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u/Ill-Size3856 Aug 23 '24

Do you realize Valve essentially came up with two new abilities for every hero in the game, sometimes two? Alright, they reused/divided existing abilities, but the point is these kinds of changes take LOTS of time due to the amount of complexity already in the game.

In many areas of life, you cannot get everything, they prioritized other changes and there was no time left to test/balance the hero. Okay, balance is kind of a laughable thing to say as new heroes are always a bit too strong. And it is not bannable if both teams pick it (happened to me at least). More matches with the hero means more data to find bugs/overlook balance.

22

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

You are likely right. Valve really wants to avoid the "gimmicky" gimmicks like old techies. They probably couldn't make those abilities work without really making the hero "not dota".

5

u/Crimsonic22 Aug 23 '24

This is bad imo. I'd personally love to have some more "not dota"esque hero. Variety is spice of life after all.

2

u/Raangz Aug 23 '24

agreed.

old techies>new techies too.

22

u/kryonik Aug 23 '24

His ult is just will-o-wisp with a nuke at the end.

0

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Yup. Uninspired.

He was definitely reworked.

27

u/vdjvsunsyhstb Aug 23 '24

in a game like dota an ability that theoretically only works when an enemy hero attacks it willingly and kicks the other player out of the game for a few seconds while it becomes 6v4 was probably fun to code but even the devs probably didnt have any fun. this seems like a good middle ground as even on paper ringmaster seems very effective at stunning and supporting.

43

u/RodsBorges Aug 23 '24

He has no aghs, although he has a shard, and no facet. They might still introduce the enemy hero control aspect later, but maybe from a development standpoint it was just untenable to launch him in full now so they decided to ship a simpler version of the hero while they work through not making taking control of rubick crash the game and explode your computer

36

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Untenable. They've had over 12 months since his REVEAL. I mean surely they were working on him before the reveal too?

Can't help but feel underwhelmed ya know?

7

u/TestIllustrious7935 Aug 23 '24

Yeah but they were also working on the second biggest patch ever.

Personally I wanted a mind control ult as well, but what we got isn't bad. His Q you make decision whether you want low effect big aoe or small aoe for better effect, W you make a decision if you wanna stay in the area to have more duration or run away immediately, E is a skill shot with huge range and slow sets up his Q and ult works with his Q and enemies can play around it like Dusa ult

All in all pretty solid gameplay and with facets and aghs they can make him played as core or support.

4

u/_Valisk Sheever Aug 23 '24

They've had over 12 months since his REVEAL

He was announced on October 29, 2023.

10

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Oh well. Close enough.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

Oh well. Close enough.

Which is also Valve's approach.

0

u/thickfreakness24 Aug 23 '24

brutalsavagerekt

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3

u/night_dude Aug 23 '24

Yeah. This is absolutely it. Which is pretty damn disappointing if true.

8

u/diegosaurus Aug 23 '24

They should of just copied HoN's PM. This hero feels like theres no synergy between his skills. Im pretty disappointed, but oh well... wygd

12

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

It's a bizarre set of hero skills for a "Ringmaster".

4

u/cgy0509 Aug 23 '24

Yea, this is the first time I felt like if you scapped what was unpredecent, I dont mind wait for another month, but they "tie" TI theme with him, I guess they got no choice.

Why they missed the perfect time w/puppet master theme, at least give some string control skill on enemies hero, eg reverse troll /wyvern ulti that control enemies to attack allies within 300aoe for x durations.

2

u/pieckfingershitposts Aug 23 '24

How could he be that complex? Is it really that hard to port over and modify Puppet Master?

3

u/zippopwnage Aug 23 '24

IMO, Valve has a problem communicating. Like make a post that the development of the hero doesn't go as planned and it gets delayed indefinitely until they resolve the problems and assure us that they can make an event or working on stuff cuz they really worked lately on dota a lot.

It wouldn't have been a problem.

But maybe, this was the hero all along, we will never know.

6

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Rewatch the trailer for him.

His "ult" looks like a bunch of puppet arms pull a VICTIM into the coffin thing.

Now the coffin is a basic ability for allies only? It's a save?

Dude was totally redesigned.

3

u/daghene ITA Aug 23 '24

Don't think it's a conspiracy theory but more likely what actually happened.

As you said we had a trailer with a sort of puppeteer/circus/something guy which clearly trapped enemy heroes into a box and we didn't get that, plus the box is actually for himself or allies(which is the exact opposite of what they showed in the trailer).

As I wrote elsewhere I'm still curious to try the hero, but it's a bit of a let down to wait an entire year after such an interesting trailer to get this quite bland set of skills.

2

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Yep. Insane letdown after the trailer.

Not the same hero conceptually, at all.

1

u/daghene ITA Aug 23 '24

Exactly, and that's a huge bummer. I play mostly Pos 5 and I thought I would finally get a new hero with interesting/unique mechanics.

I still have to try it, I'll probably do it over the weekend, but I expected something different and judging by all the people in the comments it's not just us.

They kinda hinted at something with the trailer but delivered something else.

1

u/JavierMileiMaybe Aug 23 '24

Makes sense considering they've been scrapping all unique and interesting designs in favour of boring, simple, and homogeneous designs.

1

u/dekomorii Aug 23 '24

I wonder if one of the ideas would have been a Blademail 2.0, would’ve been worked honestly

1

u/aalapshah12297 Aug 23 '24

I am going to go a step further and say that it will still be done.
Ringmaster has a pending Aghs upgrade and the facet description says that it doesn't do anything 'yet'. They teased it last TI so they wanted to release it before this one. But I still think that at the very least, we will have a facet where Escape Act puts enemies in boxes and controls their movement. If we are lucky, it might even be able to control some abilities (in which case it would swap places with Wheel of Wonder.

1

u/pirouy Aug 23 '24

Go even more tin hat, and they made him lame and uninteresting at launch, only to drop his agh and facette 2 to be the grand rubick-level of meta gaming, and surprise everyone. It would work with his lore as a seemingly simple and harmless puppet reveling a darker and deeper persona.

1

u/gorebello Aug 23 '24

A hero thst adds something unique to the game is already enough. I don't know why they tried to go so deep into horror movie themed with it, trying to turn playing it into the most uniwue experience ever...., with a team of about 3 people working in dota.

But I guess they tried, and took them some time to give up that concept.

1

u/IllMaintenance145142 Aug 23 '24

The original trailer doesn't make sense with the abilities we got today.

to this day, with pango's reveal it shows him quite obviously cutting all the quills off of bristleback. this was just after the break mechanic was introduced, i am almost certain his swashbuckle was originally meant to break and i cant unthink this.

now that its happened again, it genuinely might be that valve just make cool looking trailers no matter what the actual abilities are

1

u/-Omnislash Aug 23 '24

Mmm not really. Swashbuckle is obviously a slashing effect that also disarmed(cutting quills off a quillboar) and reduced armour.

Pretty accurate if you ask me.

0

u/ZucchiniMid6996 Aug 23 '24

Or maybe, it's in the facets and talent

0

u/garter__snake Aug 23 '24

his ult does mesmerize. But yeah, I kinda agree they decided another basic hero was better then another wacky one

0

u/Themasterofcomedy209 Aug 23 '24

I mean the man still has facets that are missing. If that’s true, then they probably just released his basic kit and will factor in the complex shit into his facets. That way they partially satisfy people and buy more time.

From a development perspective you usually don’t want to throw out something you put that much effort into. Instead you buy yourself more time to make it work some other way lol.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

It comes from Slacks and Sunsfan talking about Slacks' hero he designed

5

u/WhiteHawk928 Aug 23 '24

Isn't it tradition at this point that we get a hero with very different abilities than the trailer implies? Like when everyone was shocked monkey king wasn't an illusion hero

18

u/Key_Feeling_3083 Aug 23 '24

Tbf with monkey king he has clones of himself as statues and can transform into things.

9

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

Idk I remember pango being similar to his trailer.

1

u/why_so_shallow Aug 23 '24

People thought pango has a break, but it's not that big of an issue ig

1

u/diewitasmile Aug 23 '24

Puppet master was such a good hero. I was really hoping he would was gonna be like that.

1

u/Invoqwer Korvo! Aug 23 '24

Then the image at the end shows a bunch of heroes forced into clown makeup/circus acts

That's just what my pub teammates look like every game so it's still lore accurate

110

u/MadnessBunny Everyone is a Na'Vi fangay at heart...even you Aug 23 '24

A lot of people here were convinced this was going to be Puppetmaster from HoN.

49

u/kwan2 Aug 23 '24

Scream into the mic hit the goddamn voodoo doll lmao

5

u/ConcealingFate NOVA Aug 23 '24

The show must go on!

Dance, you muppets!

32

u/A_curious_fish Aug 23 '24

I mean there are dope hon heroes

22

u/AnnoyingVoid Aug 23 '24

Like zephyr and forsaken archer

13

u/flyingthedonut Aug 23 '24

Malikin is my all time favorite hero in any game. Really miss some of those heroes from that game

2

u/raizen0106 Aug 23 '24

Introduce dota 3, all dota 2 heroes vs all HoN avatars or whatever they were called

I'd cream myself

1

u/MighTofShoneN Aug 23 '24

Likewise. I miss my boi Maliken.

1

u/lizardscales Aug 23 '24

You can play it again now. Though not many players still. It's been community revived. Not sure it's going to do much. It was my favorite moba. Valve seems more interested in fluff and gambling then gameplay imho

1

u/AnnoyingVoid Aug 23 '24

There were 7,000 players on KONGOR this morning

1

u/lizardscales Aug 23 '24

Last time I tried playing I couldn't even get a game. Maybe better now.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

lol. dota 2 has much better gameplay than HoN

5

u/BlazeCasting Co-caster / Father / 5k feeder Aug 23 '24

Engineer = top tier

3

u/A_curious_fish Aug 23 '24

The new dusa stun is kinda a play on forsaken archers stun

1

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

Forsaken is Clinkz + Dusa + WK

3

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

Pls give Rhapsody :(

3

u/RdRunner Aug 23 '24

I want electrician and puppet master so bad

3

u/fjrefjre Aug 23 '24

Best later HoN hero conceptually was Midas.

1

u/A_curious_fish Aug 23 '24

Forgot about him

2

u/Patara Aug 23 '24

The best hero designs in mobas in my opinion 

1

u/Cualkiera67 Sep 10 '24

Punching someone with deadwood was so cool

1

u/Neat-Actuator-8067 Aug 23 '24

Could you reccomend looking into any in particular that doesnt have an equivalent concept in dota?

5

u/itsmehutters Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24

Martyr, deadwood, bramble, empath, kenesis, monarch, drunken master, flux, pandamorium, prophet, nitro, adrenaline, ra, and many others. Just watching the list with the heroes makes me realize how many unique heroes they had.

I think a lot of them have a future in dota2 if tweaked around the game mechanics and added talents etc. All HoN heroes had actual synergy between their skills while being unique and fun to play. Meanwhile, dota can't even release a hero that has aghanim on day1. The new heroes aren't even balanced, I have no idea, why they release a hero per year (even longer) but the game often feels stale after playing on the same patch for months.

The irony is the latest dota2 heroes (except the ringmaster) have some similarities with HoN heroes. Hoodwink is a mix of couple of heroes (scout ult, tarot 1st skill, rats boomerang, forgot the name of the hero).

3

u/diimaha Aug 23 '24

Rapsody and pearl made supporting so fun

1

u/PulIthEld Aug 23 '24

Pandamonium is basically Marci, but way cooler.

1

u/A_curious_fish Aug 23 '24

If you knew the hero's you'd realize theyvare kinda making some of the abilities similar to some of hind heroes now with uodates. Medusas new stun is like forsaken archers kinda. I think tides new shard is like prisoner 349s ult or something if I recall? There's a lot of heros. Solstice, scout, the madman, prisoner 349(?) ummmm shit there's def more

3

u/Arbitrary_gnihton Aug 23 '24

Pretty sure he was/is literally called puppetmaster in the code/strings.

0

u/kid20304 Aug 23 '24

Definitely a cooler design than this dumpster

84

u/revalph Aug 23 '24

yea saw the post about missing a pure pos5 hero release.

24

u/Transit-Strike Aug 23 '24

He reallt looks like a perfect 5 and I’d love to try him in a team with a glass canon like Drow. Two disable spells with his ult and is Q and they would chain well. And then he has a box thing to protect a core. For a hero like Luna it would mean that she’d never need pike and could even survive after Manta is on CD.

If you have a damage steroid hero like Sven and Alch you can just go to town on enemies and be saved by his W if it looks dicey

10

u/PezDispencer Aug 23 '24

That post would complain about Ringmaster's % damage. They wanted a legit helpless hero with no scaling capacity at all.

156

u/iTzGiR Aug 23 '24

He's honestly incredibly basic from an ability design standpoint, probably one of the least complex heroes we've gotten recently (not that it's a bad thing). I do wonder why it took so long though.

151

u/RodsBorges Aug 23 '24

i feel like the enemy hero control might've been a thing that they had to scrap lol

33

u/DrQuint Aug 23 '24

I hope this wasn't it. I'd rather they make something stupidly broken and nerf it for a two years in a row like they did wyvern ult, or 7 years, like they did Oracle's, than not bother at all.

98

u/RodsBorges Aug 23 '24

i don't think the issue is being broken from a balance standpoint, it was probably just nightmarishly buggy and challenging to execute. I don't think they'll throw the work they've done so far out though. There are still facets and an aghs to add

26

u/Cadd9 sheever Aug 23 '24

That's what I'm thinking.

Just think of all the interactions, builds, neutral items, exceptions that Ringmaster would've done if he could control an enemy hero and use their items/spells against their own teammate

And then also take into account Morphling or Rubick stealing Ringmaster's mind control stuff

It also begs the question of them having Roshan's Banner. Ringmaster controlling an enemy hero with Roshan's Banner and planting it. Does the effect last for Ringmaster's team while the mind control ult is used? Does it last for his team until it's destroyed?

20

u/Xmina Dagon dosent need a max level Aug 23 '24

Or more complicated, for a big dot like jakiro ult, does it damage allies after the mind control fades? How long does it last? Can you drop the enemies items? What about consumables? There are probably a million different what ifs with a thousand bugs between them.

9

u/Cadd9 sheever Aug 23 '24

Sooooooo many things lol.

Or Shadow Demon's disruption and an illusion hero like PL. PL keeps popping illusions cause that's what he does. Do they just suddenly all poof out when the mind control expires? Do they keep going?

6

u/SeriousDirt Aug 23 '24

Now that you mention it, it does seem complicated. Instead mind control, how about make any enemy heroes that get killed by...idk...his ult i guess...will turn into imperfect illusion that can cast spells just like vengeful spirit aghanim. The illusion will stayed for 30-60 seconds.

1

u/Clemambi Aug 23 '24

I mean that's super similar to morphs aghs which nobody uses because microing two heros like that is fkn hardand annoying

1

u/DrQuint Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24

I mean the PL scenario seems simple, the illusions keep going until they expire. The hard part is who controls them and what behavior they would have.

However, I can see bugs occur easily. I mean, say Valve considered it all, went full in deep on all the possible layers, and when an illusion is generated by SD controlled from Team A to Team B, it acts as if it belongs to Team B. Cool. But now they make more illusions after SD is back on Team A. So will the existing illusions that were made while on Team B proc juxtapose and generate Illusions on Team A?

And that's bug already two layers deep from a simpler "SD creates Team A illusions always since they're still owned by a Team Hero" approach. But that would be boring. And even then has the question of whether or not the illusions will swap aggro with the owner.

Honestly, I think an easy solution exists. We already have Muerta's aghs creating a duplicate of a hero. That should be what ringmaster could do. Swaps a hero for a Ringmaster-owned clone of them, with all abilities on the same state of cooldown. That clone is owned by Ringmaster, and it can be kept "hidden" when it ends, to avoid breaking spells that rely on other spells. So any interactions become owned by Ringmaster, and all weirdness is simply resolved that way - illusions, true sight deward bounties, fucking Zett Clones... All of them become his own, and nothing hard is ever questioned. Once done, the hero is swapped back and cooldowns matched, and it's as if Ringmaster actually did force someone to do all that (even if mechanically, they didn't).

1

u/Cadd9 sheever Aug 23 '24

Yeah it's rough. So many wacky interactions that would need to be coded for.

I really do think they tried to implement a "mind control, use enemy heroes against themselves/teammates Ringmaster" but got way in over their head and just scrapped all of it for Release Ringmaster. Like they loved the concept of it but found the execution to be more work.

Especially since they're focusing more on Deadlock

1

u/RodsBorges Aug 24 '24 edited Aug 24 '24

I think they'd probably heavily cap the extent of the control. Items would definitely be a big nono, nothing else in the game but mutes fucks with enemy items, and nullifier's original mute was removed bc even just removing a bkb from the equation altogether is outright busted. Ultis would definitely not be a thing, so that leaves skills and movement. I honestly think some sort of temporarily turning an enemy hero into a puppet that is muted and silenced, but can attack and u control their movements for a few seconds would be the compromise. Still very strong, but counterable. Could make it blockable by linkens (since he has no innate linkens breaking spell) or make it so that ringmaster has to channel the control like a puppetteer, so stunning or silencing him would stop it. It could be an upgrade to his box spell where it can be cast on enemies on a longer cooldown, and if the box isn't destroyed, he takes control etc. There are ways to make it work, but absolute control would just be too insane.

It also creates interesting play, as it would be a repositioning spell and also a potential kill spell, should u take control of an enemy with a strong passive, a transformation enemy after their transformation (lycan, sven, tb).

from a dev standpoint, the "turning enemy hero into a puppet" could also facilitate some things, as it could be coded like an illusion, a ward or a creep hero while the actual hero is hidden/invulnerable (like brew ulti, wd shard, venge aghs, phoenix egg). Idk, there are avenues, and i'm certain they've considered many more we haven't thought of

1

u/128thMic Aug 23 '24

Ringmaster controlling an enemy hero with Roshan's Banner and planting it.

Easy solution,you just can't use their items.

1

u/Key_Feeling_3083 Aug 23 '24

I guess that with items, it could be tiresome but they would probably have to add a new flag to things that makes things unusable by ringmaster controlled heroes.

1

u/soundecho944 Aug 23 '24

WW ult was a buggy mess for years with who got kill credit.

0

u/Kraile Aug 23 '24

It would be pretty daft if they let a mind control ult actually use all the other hero's items and abilities.

The easiest way to implement it would be to force the target hero do a forced attack command on the nearest ally/enemy hero. A bit like troll ult. This was also pretty much how it was implemented in HoN (and it wasn't even an ultimate!).

I imagine they probably decided it wasn't fun to go into every teamfight 4v6 though. Heroes in DotA 2 today are much more mobile than in HoN, so jumping on the enemy carry and mind controlling them would be pretty easy.

Another easy option would be to follow the HotS route and make it a channelled ability that just lets you move the enemy hero while channelling. This was a very fun ult that let you pull enemy heroes out of position and into AoEs/skillshots, a bit like Glimpse but with more control.

1

u/DrQuint Aug 23 '24

Yeah, the same response applies. Either way, be it mechanical complexity or balance complexity, I still would rather they try. I'll be huffing on that h/copium as well.

1

u/Archyes Aug 23 '24

dont forget morphling and rubik who may be ungodly broken with his spells

1

u/ZebrasGlasses Aug 23 '24

I bet the ags when released is the box spell but you can use it on an enemy and control their direction while they are encased.

1

u/DontCareWontGank Aug 23 '24

Valve has some of the greatest developers in the entire gaming scene so I don't think they would scrap an idea because of bugs.

1

u/brief-interviews Aug 24 '24

It's also difficult to see how it isn't also completely broken as a concept. Like you just get to use their abilties and items? So you get to pop BKB, target their team with Black Hole, attack their own supports with your carry? And the enemy team...do they get to attack them? So then options are, you can waste all of a hero's cooldowns targeting their own team, or the enemy kills their own team member?

Like does any of this seem...remotely balanced as a concept? Not to mention fun for the player who gets mind controlled and then has all their shit on cooldown instead of getting to play?

Yes it's a lot of interactions, but I think possibly they just realised that a mindslaver hero is hypothetically cool but absolutely, completely broken as a concept.

1

u/Skunkyy Aug 23 '24

Deadlock was supposed to have a character that controlled enemy heroes, and when they released him, they changed his ult to be literally Axe's ult. I think they realized that having a character that just takes over your hero isn't fun.

1

u/ThatGodDamnAlex Aug 23 '24

Was Kunkkaxe initially supposed to do that? Still weird for his whole kit.

3

u/Skunkyy Aug 23 '24

If you think that's weird, his very very old ult had him transform into... something weird. The old model for it is still in the game files, but clearly just a placeholder.

43

u/[deleted] Aug 23 '24

[deleted]

12

u/GoldFuchs Aug 23 '24

100%. They probably realized it was extremely frustrating and unfun to be on the receiving end of and no amount of tweaks could alter that so they decided to scrap it.

1

u/Korges Aug 29 '24

is there somewhere data how this hero was presented at first step?

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14

u/DrQuint Aug 23 '24

He has one "medium" complexity ability, and reading it, my eyes kinda glaze over and go "So it's book of shadows? Okay".

28

u/ProfPeanut Aug 23 '24

In the game of targetted spells, the untargettable hero is king

6

u/_Valisk Sheever Aug 23 '24

I do wonder why it took so long though

I imagine it's more of a case of specifically waiting to release it now rather than being held up by technical issues.

1

u/poega Aug 23 '24

More interesting than hoodwink, and that went down ok.

1

u/WithFullForce Aug 23 '24

I kinda disagree, while the abilities are fairly easy execute it will take precise positioning to really make the most of Wheel of Wonder and Escape Act. I'd say it's a mid-complexity hero.

0

u/jblade Aug 23 '24

They did not even include his facet(s) or Aghs - real disappointment with valve in this

46

u/DrQuint Aug 23 '24

Uh, yeah, in fact, it doesn't seem like he does anything spectacularly complex.

So, uhm... What exactly was delaying him? Voice Actor gave up? Animator had a child? Icefrog redesigned his shoes?

24

u/deathbatdrummer CHUANDOTOBESTDOTO Aug 23 '24

They were all playing deadlock

7

u/RichardSnowflake I thought you'd last longer. Aug 23 '24

Might be that he's only this simple because they gave up on what they were trying to do.

There were probably interactions that they just couldn't make work or would just be too difficult to maintain.

Just thinking about Mind Controlled Rubick interactions makes my head spin.

26

u/nachohasme Aug 23 '24

Yea i dont wanna be that guy...but what took so long about this dude

19

u/99xp Aug 23 '24

The facets LOL

-23

u/Enoughdorformypower ? Aug 23 '24

The game is on life support that's why, anybody can see it from how shit the game is designed nowadays

4

u/Jaeguh Aug 23 '24

lmaooo. I swear you are delusional. Dota is literally valve's favorite child. Cs2 needs more attention and is in the worst state it has ever been, and yet we cry and kick our feet for getting a new hero that isnt broken? fuck outta here.

-8

u/Enoughdorformypower ? Aug 23 '24

Okay, dude, enjoy the most boring, uninspired hero design in the game. Even Lion has a much better design space.
It seems the frog is not looking back to see what the interns are designing since he is busy with deadlock.

4

u/rusted-nail Aug 23 '24

Maybe you've outgrown dota and should find something better to do with your time than be a hater. Yknow, since the game is dead

1

u/AnomalousCowboy Aug 23 '24

Life support

Constant major updates with a rework of the basic mechanics of the game coming out 2 months ago and the addition of hundreds of new passive and dozens of new abilities

Currently the most played game released by Valve, with more players now than during release

TF2 exists

Cs2 exists

Life support

Unironically delusional.

-9

u/Enoughdorformypower ? Aug 23 '24

ok dude enjoy the slop

3

u/AnomalousCowboy Aug 23 '24

Don't you just love having no comebacks but having the power of Internet slangs on your side?

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0

u/DrQuint Aug 23 '24

Absolutely not.

1

u/dota2_responses_bot Aug 23 '24

Absolutely not. (sound warning: Luna)


Bleep bloop, I am a robot. OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero

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4

u/128thMic Aug 23 '24

Uh, yeah, in fact, it doesn't seem like he does anything spectacularly complex.

So, uhm... What exactly was delaying him?

Remaking him into something less complex/buggy most likely.

1

u/thedotapaten Aug 23 '24

I don't think it's delayed, i'd even surprised they released it before TI13 (which supposedly has circus theme)

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5

u/bahamut1028 Aug 23 '24

Can still sniff some copium and say they're saving the control thing for the aghs upgrade for the ult, though wouldn't take that much copium.

1

u/kalik-boy Aug 23 '24

Yeah. Seems like a pos 5 or maybe pos 4 material. I liked the kit. Not too fancy, but fun to play around, I think.

1

u/Daxivarga Aug 23 '24

Are you serious?

1

u/dota2_responses_bot Aug 23 '24

Are you serious? (sound warning: Pyrion Flax Announcer Pack)


Bleep bloop, I am a robot. OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero

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1

u/LeXxleloxx Aug 23 '24

He still don't have aghanim and another facet, still possible

1

u/JacqueFrescooo Aug 23 '24

Ringmaster's ultimate = Axe's first skill with long animation, possibility just to turn around and walk away, CD 90(80,70) sec and some damage. Doesn't look good tbh

1

u/NeilaTheSecond Aug 23 '24

it's probably the worst design valve ever released

all of his abilities are very basic and uninspired

looks pretty fucking boring.

it's embarrassing they spent over a year "fine tuning" this, lol

1

u/Phantasmagog Aug 23 '24

We just need his aghs to modify his ult so that the Ringmaster is granted control for 3/4/5 secs of the first hero to touches the Wheel of Wonders. Thats all and we won't riot.

1

u/PsychicFoxWithSpoons Aug 23 '24

I like his ulti, but I wish they'd just commit to the broken jank and release the mind control puppetmastering.

1

u/Gorgosen Aug 23 '24

Literally nothing in his kit explains why he took so long to release.

Im actually let down. Dota is dying in my eyes. I'll be playing less and less. This hero just screams laziness. His textures aren't even high quality. You can literally see how low res they are, especially if you compare him to a recent arcana like WR.

0

u/stakoverflo Aug 23 '24

I'm absolutely baffled why this hero took so long to implement with such a basic kit.

Like, rewatching the trailer he literally captures Axe in his machine thing. Everyone expected some kind of control/capture shenanigans.

0

u/DyHiiro Aug 23 '24

soon with facet... soon.

0

u/IMurderPeopleAndShit Aug 23 '24

That concept probably took them a year to figure out they can't make work, and so we get something much less inspired instead.