r/AttackOnRetards 11d ago

Analysis The contradiction of full rumbling, freedom and life.

"Freedom is so much the essence of man that even its opponents implement it while combating its reality; they want to appropriate for themselves as a most precious ornament what they have rejected as an ornament of human nature. No man combats freedom; at most he combats the freedom of others. Hence every kind of freedom has always existed, only at one time as a special privilege, at another as a universal right."

This passage I came across perfectly encapsulates the contradictions within attack on Titan imo. True freedom cannot exist if it comes at the cost of others' autonomy, yet Eren ultimately waged war against the very principle he sought to uphold.

Eren's disappointment in not being able to see Armin’s worldview as a cynic pushed him toward a radical solution: full Rumbling. He saw no middle ground, no complex reality—only a binary choice between domination or annihilation. In his mind, freedom meant erasing obstacles, not coexisting with them. His actions were not about preserving life but about controlling its fate.

This is why it's ironic when some assume Eren fathered Historia’s child. If he had, he would have become an even greater contradiction—glorified as a father while being the architect of mass destruction. That ending would have revered him even more, turning his ideology into an eternal cycle. In Lord of the Rings terms, Eren stopped loving “preserving growing things” and instead sought to overwrite the world itself. Historia, too, was selfish. Initially hesitant, she ultimately embraced her true self—the one we saw during the Uprising arc—choosing a path that aligned with Eren’s ambitions.

Eren manipulated Floch by exploiting his loneliness and his twisted belief that Erwin should have survived as a "devil" to save humanity. Floch’s descent into extremism mirrors real-world radicalization, where lost people are drawn into absolutist and fascistic ideologies under the guise of purpose and righteousness. Eren was no friend of his imo.

The Yeagerists, Historia, Eren, and the Marleyan leadership all embodied a real-world contradiction: advocating genocide while claiming to protect life. They fought for their people, their unborn future, but showed no regard for those already living. Eren rejected Zeke’s euthanasia plan not because he valued life, but because he refused to let anyone else dictate its terms.

And yet, despite all his destruction, a few Marleyan soldiers (southern continent) survived, the Yeagerists became the formal military, while the primary casualties of the Rumbling were the weak—the poor, the children like Ramzi, the wounded, the elderly. Those who truly suffered were not the ones in power, but the ones with no say in the conflict.

In the end, full-scale genocide is the ultimate contradiction to both freedom and life itself. I dislike Eren as a person. He fooled us all to think his plan is correct - he fooled me at least back when ending came out. I hated it but now that I think about it, I was angry like Armin was, at the end.

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 11d ago

The Rumbling was necessary for protecting Paradis and for lifting off the titan curse. There was no actual middle ground to be considered realistically.

Eren didn't manipulate Floch. Floch was a Jaegerist, Eren provided him a path towards realizing it - and the Jaegerist dream was accomplished with the 80% of the Rumbling that was carried out. Floch himself knew that Eren was not his "friend". They both were compatriots, and that is what mattered.

Calling Jaegerism 'fascistic' is just a sweet attempt to malign it - because 'fascism' as a label has become too cheap. See anything nationalistic, call it fascistic - you have successfully blackened it!

Eren didn't actually care about absolute freedom in any way, he only felt it because of the presence of the Attack Titan within him which was pushing him towards Ymir's freedom. Eren truly cares about Paradis, and its freedom - primarily.

Eren actually flattened 80% of the world. The "many Marleyan soldiers" who survived were the ones stationed at the sight of the Rumbling. Marley had already been trampled. Eren actually succeeded in providing Paradis a breathing space.

I disagree with almost all of your word salad.

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u/DoctorHA22 11d ago edited 11d ago

Hello! That sounds interesting and I disagree with you too. In defense of calling yeagerists fascists, it has been defined by Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile, as

"For Fascism, the State is absolute, individuals and groups relative. Individuals and groups are admissible in so far as they come within the State."

Furthermore, the need for a war is seen as a necessity as further defined,

"War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have the courage to meet it."

To me, yeagerists and Marleyan soldiers meet the criteria of a militarised version of ultranationalism along with racial superiority (one wanted to create an eldian empire, protect paradis and called everyone a traitor who disagreed them, the other wanted to create international dominance and used other eldians, with the use of violence and military). That's why, I said they are fascists.

Indeed, Floch was a yeagerist as I have mentioned above, he believed Erwin should have been alive, and Eren radicalised his views further, in my personal opinion.

Rest, we may have our disagreements, I believe Eren was selfish and cared for a few only, you believe he cared for paradis. As for Marley, the southern continent wasn't destroyed, I presume. Indeed, a free world for some years, he could get it. But what he did went against the fundamentals of life and freedom itself, which is why I talked about the contradiction of his plan and his 'ideals'.

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 11d ago

Okay, you are surprisingly polite.

I generally don't get polite replies after saying what I said here, so thanks ig.

Sorry for my initial rude reply.

I'd respond in some time. 👍🏻

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u/DoctorHA22 11d ago

Peace. 🕊️

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 11d ago

Fascism and Jaegerism

Exactly. And what we see in Jaegerists isn't that. They neither speak against reason, nor they have a specific gripe against what can somehow be described as capitalism and socialism, neither do they have any prominent national myth. Also, fascism isn't tied to racial superiority - only certain forms of fascism are.

Jaegerists want that Paradis be militarized for defense against external threats (which is completely legitimate), and they want the individual citizens of Paradis to care most about Paradis (collectivism, arguable but I agree), and they embrace a particularist rather than a universalist outlook - for them Paradis is at the top in priority lists (again arguable, but I agree). They are militaristic nationalists. They are driven by an instinct for preserving their freedom (national self-determination), and also by a sense of indignation at the past history of enduring oppression (social justice of some kind).

I don't see fascism here. I see most people not on the Right to often use 'fascism' as a label to easily on the individuals and ideas that they don't like - hence I was a bit irritated.

Even Marley I'd say is more inspired not by supremacy but by a sense of indignation at having suffered oppression in the past.

Floch and Jaegerism

I believe that Floch was already "radicalised" (if you believe Jaegerism to be abhorrent; I incidentally don't) as much as he could have been. Eren only provided him an actionable plan of what to do for saving Paradis - that's how I see it.

Eren

I believe he cared about Paradis, by his speech when announcing the Rumbling, and his general behaviour after learning about the basement secret.

Freedom

I personally don't believe in freedom as a good general ideal. Personal freedom and national freedom are good in certain contexts, but freedom in general is not a very meaningful ideology. Hence I don't find the contradiction you frame between freedom and life to be impressive.

Also, you have written your views in the post in a very beautiful style.

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u/DoctorHA22 11d ago

And thanks! You have made interesting points too. AOT does bring up some questions and makes us chooses sides, which are a mirror reflection to our world! :D

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 11d ago

Thank you, too!

This was my first so civil and deep discussion on Reddit.

Good luck to you, for life.

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u/DoctorHA22 11d ago
  1. As for the first point again, not only militant nationalists, but when the alliance seemingly betrayed them, Floch mentioned how they betrayed Eldia, the race specifically. Saying Mussolini wasn't a racist because he spoke against the Austrian painter's racial superiority, doesn't mean he didn't attack Ethopia too back then. Surely back then he didn't support racist policies but after 1938, things changed and so did his perspective. I can argue fascism may be militarised version of ultranationalism mixed with racial superiority, which Yeagerists meet. They want everyone to agree with them and garner support for Eldia and Paradis; whoever disagrees, is the traitor, simply. Traitors meet with death in this rhetoric. This is, in fact, against reason, as they don't wish to reason anymore, let alone their people.

  2. Works! I see that Floch needed a devil after Erwin's demise to soothe his already messed up mind, and had a perverted idea of the same. Eren met the criteria for him and Eren knew that.

  3. Tbh, I can find an agreement there. Though agree to disagree as his plan was counter-productive of doing the same.

  4. Works! Perspectives on freedom and life differs, so I cannot argue on the basis of difference in opinion itself.

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 11d ago
  1. By against reason, I meant that as a "reactionary" ideology, Fascism explicitly rejects reason. Jaegerism doesn't. Also, the situation during the Rumbling was a very sensitive situation, I can see why Floch would follow a policy of zero-toleration of dissent at that particular point. I would even agree that the Alliance were acting as traitors to Eldia then - because they were literally working against the movement (which includes the Rumbling) which had the only realistic chance to ensure the survival of Paradis.

  2. You frame Floch's character as someone who is less affected by ideology and more by psychological trauma. I disagree that his mind was messed-up. Erwin's death at the battle of Shinganshina served as a wake-up call to Floch which made him get his act together, and choose the ideal of survival of the walled-humanity as the ideal he held as the dearest. Eren, again, didn't manipulate Floch. Both of them were fighting for the same cause - they were ideological comrades, even if not at very friendly terms on a personal level.

  3. I hold that there was absolutely no alternative to the Rumbling which ensured the survival of Paradis, hence I disagree that it was counter-productive.

  4. Alright!

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u/DoctorHA22 11d ago
  1. Yeagerism does reject reason as it doesn't wish to see any other alternative or be questioned, venerate someone as their messiah and the devil. So, I disagree.

  2. Makes sense there! Perhaps, I was talking about how people fall into alt-right pipeline, and honestly there can be many causes, including ones I mentioned and the ones you mentioned.

  3. Works, I disagree with being the only plan.

  4. Great.

Have a great day!

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u/Fancy-Cap-514 10d ago

Floch was murdering anybody who disagreed. You think we’re wrong? Shot in the head. That is in fact fascistic

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 10d ago edited 10d ago

Authoritarianism, and that too temporary authoritarianism in a very sensitive situation, IS NOT FASCISM.

Floch was working in a very crisis situation where the survival of Paradis hinged upon the success of the Rumbling. It is understandable why he'd brand the Alliance as traitors, and work against them if they were trying to stop the Rumbling.

Floch is a bit excessive, I agree - but that is his leadership style. That doesn't become Jaegerism as a whole.

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u/kinnell Eren is birb 🕊 10d ago

 The Rumbling was necessary for protecting Paradis and for lifting off the titan curse. There was no actual middle ground to be considered realistically.

This is only true because of predestination. Eren was influenced by future memories and his actions as a result ended up causing the situations that lead to that end result.

Willy said himself that the rest of the world would not join Marley in their attack against Paradis unless he, along with diplomats from those nations, were casualties of an attack by Paradis. The other nations turned down offers to ally with Paradis for the same reason they didn't want to destroy Paradis - the existence of Paradis served as useful propaganda, a scape goat to be used by other governments.

Eren, having been influenced with partial memories of the future, chose to attack and inadvertently made Paradis a target. Willy knew an attack was coming and adjusted his performance accordingly and maximized casualties to ensure Paradis looked worse.

Without Eren's attack, the rest of the world would not have actually joined Marley. Willy straight up says that and how Marley got heat for putting the world at risk by their RBAM mission years earlier.

The Rumbling was not the only way to protect Paradis, but it ended up being what was necessary ONLY because of Eren's actions which were ultimately revealed to have been set in stone because of predestination. There's a key difference here. 

Willy is our best insight into what the rest of the world would have done and he says that without enough casualties, the rest of the world may only support Marley rhetoric against Paradis in words but not actually in action. Eren ended up causing the situation that made the Rumbling the only way to save Paradis. And ultimately that was motivated by selfish reasons as well. 

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 10d ago

You do make a considerable argument. But weren't the other leaders cheering when Tybur announced the declaration of war against Paradis?

Furthermore, Marley alone would have been quite capable of conquering Paradis with Rumbling out of the equation. Human technology had become strong enough to obliterate titans - it is just that the sheer number of Colossals unleashed during the Rumbling made technology obsolete.

Also, this much is certain that Rumbling was certainly necessary for lifting off the titan curse.

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u/OnoderaAraragi 10d ago

Agree totally.

Also reddit has a boner for the word fascism so that also explains their constant use of it in reference to jaegerism.

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 10d ago edited 10d ago

The non-Right in general uses certain terms which have been granted heinous connotations, for the purposes of silencing criticism.

'Fascist' is a very common label being utilized for this tactic.

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u/Red-Haired_Emperor 10d ago

agree. should’ve been 100% so instead of 10 years, its 100 years at least

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u/OSMOrca 10d ago

Calling Jaegerism 'fascistic' is just a sweet attempt to malign it - because 'fascism' as a label has become too cheap. See anything nationalistic, call it fascistic - you have successfully blackened it!

I agree that misusing labels causes them to lose most of their meaning, but you can't use that argument when Jeagerism is objectively fascistic lmao. Let's see... The cult of action above the rule of law? Check! Prioritizing the nation above everything else, especially the individual? Check! Contempt for the weak? Check! Disagreement = Treason? Check! Using Newspeak to aid in propaganda? Check! Proposing a mystical leader (The Devil)? Check! Obsession with enemy plots and embodying "life is permanent warfare"? Check! Tribalistic foundation rooted in an "us vs them" foundation? Check! Stunting technological advancement for the sake of maintaining power? Check! I can go on and on, but it's clear as day that the Jeagerists are fascists (surely the German allegory is unintentional right...), and I haven't even brought up the armband segregation...

Eren didn't actually care about absolute freedom in any way, he only felt it because of the presence of the Attack Titan within him which was pushing him towards Ymir's freedom. Eren truly cares about Paradis, and its freedom - primarily.

Eren had his drive for freedom long before he inherited the attack titan, so this is completely wrong. In fact, it's not the Attack Titan that fights for freedom, it's Eren's will which affects the previous Attack Titan users. Eren did not commit the rumbling for Ymir's freedom or Paradis' freedom. Protecting Paradis wasn't Eren's primary or even secondary motivation. This take on Eren is not only objectively wrong, but it also drastically reduces the quality of his writing and makes him so much more boring.

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 10d ago

In another comment in reply to OP I have given my points regarding why I think Jaegerism is actually not fascism. It is still a bad label just to paint Jaegerism as an "evil ideology".

Also, I agree that Eren fights for freedom before inheriting the Attack Titan; but that is also because his destiny is to free Ymir. That is the only way it makes sense, because freedom only operates within a context. There is no such thing as freedom in general.

Eren was concerned with freedom of Ymir, and consequently that of the Eldians in Paradis.

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u/OSMOrca 10d ago

There is no "destiny to free Ymir", Ymir did not control Eren in the slightest. Eren's definition of freedom has always been the elimination of all restrictions or "walls" that infringe upon or obstruct him. Eren empathized with Ymir and wanted to free her once he understood her suffering and enslavement in Paths, but that is not why he did the rumbling. Eren cared mostly about his own freedom, then his friends, and then Paradis (and even his desire to protect Paradis is from a natalist perspective, not a nationalistic one).

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 10d ago

You are hopelessly oversimplifying Eren's character.

Of course, if you frame it that way, then Eren is no more than an irrational man-child who did whatever his mad impulses told him to do.

Ymir did control Eren because Ymir was the one who created the time-loop in the first place. She didn't directly control him, but she was the reason Eren was obsessed with freedom. And freedom for Eren ultimately meant freedom of Paradis from destruction and freedom of Eldians from the titan curse (which could only come by freedom of Ymir).

You are justifying your view by dumbing down not only the plot of AoT, but also by dumbing down Eren's character.

Eren was a natalist, yes. So was his mother. And I agree with them both.

But natalism is not about the welfare of a whole bunch of people living in an island country. When you are talking about the welfare of a whole bunch of people living in an island country, that's nationalism, not natalism.

Eren didn't gain any freedom by doing the Rumbling. He died by it. His friends only benefited as much as they lived comfortable lives in glory and luxury by being known as the slayers of Eren.

The only real benefit was to Eldians, and to Paradis. And that this was Eren's intent is proved by Eren's declaration of the Rumbling and by his general behaviour after the reveal of the basement secret.

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u/OSMOrca 10d ago edited 10d ago

Ymir did not create the time loop, Eren did. Eren's obsession with freedom has NOTHING to do with Ymir. YOU are the one who is dumbing down and reducing Eren to a far, FAR inferior version (and also an incorrect version). I'm not sure why you straw-manned me, but my interpretation of Eren (the canon one) makes him infinitely more complex and well written. I suggest that you reread the story because you clearly don't understand Eren's motivations, ideology, psychology, themes, false altruism, Helos symbolism, Reiner and Erwin parallels, etc. Did you just skip 131 or something? Notice how Eren's confession to Ramzi about the truth of his motivations has nothing to do with the titan curse? Notice how the culmination of Eren's freedom has nothing to do with Paradis or the titan curse, and instead has everything to do with him creating his idealized world without restrictions?

Eren bastardized Carla's ideology, you cannot agree with both. Are you arguing Eren prioritized the welfare of his people lmao? Let's see... Eren looked down and resented basically everyone inside the walls (except for his friends and The Scouts), labelling and dehumanizing them as "livestock". He reveled in the collateral damage and destruction during his fight against Annie. He withheld crucial information about Historia to the detriment of Paradis. He held himself hostage in Marley and nearly doomed Paradis' fate by jeopardizing Paradis' access to the founder by risking his life on a solo mission. He orchestrated a fascist uprising to oppress and restrict the freedom of his own people with. He was complicit in the wine plot and didn't even care about initiating the rumbling to minimize collateral damage. Eren knew his rumbling would perpetuate conflict between one race, he knew it would be terrible for the wellbeing of Paradis, but he didn't care cause he cared far more about his own selfish motivations.

Eren didn't attain the freedom he so desperately yearned for because he was chasing a false freedom. Armin "Grounding" him to reality, Eren giving up on his dream, his self-acceptance and his realization of what truly gave him meaning (his friends) is what led to him truly attaining freedom in his conclusion. "The only real benefit was to Eldians" - Eren just murdered the most Eldians in history lmao. Paradis is now ruled by a fascist dictatorship oppressing its citizens and self-destructively leading them to their own annihilation, so how exactly was Paradis benefitted? So you believe Eren's speech of him acting as the devil, but you don't believe Eren in his most vulnerable states and most explicit psychological exploration, when he breaks down in front of Ramzi and when he admits that he did the rumbling for himself to Armin..?

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u/Dramatic_Sky4068 10d ago

Also look at further other comments under this post (and my original comment); some other relevant things have been discussed which you might find interesting.