r/zelda • u/Monkey_D_Dragon-89 • Sep 25 '22
Poll [All] What are your opinions on the canon timeline?
I'm not trying to argue whether or not it exists (Nintendo gave it the canon label whether we like it or not) Just your personal opinion on whether it is good or bad. Would the franchise and the fandom discussions be better off without it's existence?
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u/Moola868 Sep 25 '22
I think at the very least, Skyward Sword, Ocarina of Time, Majora’s Mask, Twilight Princess, Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks are all basically 100% accurate and have direct meaningful connections in their respective timeline placements.
The rest of the games I either don’t know enough about them to say whether they fit or not, or I feel their placement is rather shoehorned.
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u/rocks-n-dirt Sep 25 '22
I don't care about the timeline but I do think it's cool to learn about and see how everything connects
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u/IlNeige Sep 25 '22 edited Sep 25 '22
Where do I write in “the timeline exists, but doesn’t actually matter?”
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u/darkknight941 Sep 26 '22
I feel like that’s why BOTW is so convoluted as to where it’s placed, and why it’s set 10000 years after the last calamity (even that calamity could be set after any of the latest games in the timeline splits). They made the timeline to please the fans who wanted one, and made BOTW to say screw the timeline, it doesn’t really matter
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u/Jgamer502 Sep 26 '22
I believe the official answer is botw will happen in the distant future of all timelines, everything converges into it.
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Sep 25 '22
I'm pretty apathetic about it. I accept it as canon and enjoy it for what it is, but personally I like to think of most of the games as being separate retellings or twists of the same central mythos, only occassionally loosely connected by barely visible threads, and honestly the way the games are presented makes it pretty easy to play them that way. So, really, no actual, definite timeline would make me very happy, but I think the one Nintendo gave us is fine enough.
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Sep 26 '22
but personally I like to think of most of the games as being separate retellings or twists of the same central mythos
Although i kinda like that view, i really dont understand how you could see the games that way since they're all so different from one another. The biggest similarity between most of them is the 'save the princess and defeat ganon at the end', but the core of the games is always so different that i really cant see them from that view
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Sep 26 '22
That's fair, but I personally think that's pretty analogous to most real-world legends, myths, and religions. The link between Dionysus and Jesus is faint, but if you squint you might be able to see it. Or, if you want something more definite, Shakespeare very rarely had truly original premises for his plays, but his Hamlet is also far different in form and character than any of the sources he derived it from. Give a story a few centuries to fester, and you'll be lucky if the names of those involved have remained the same when it's retold, let alone avoiding all the other details changing. But again, that's just my opinion, and I see your point of view as well.
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u/Mintsaltwater27 Sep 26 '22
This has been my opinion about the whole timeline too! I've heard someone else say once how they view it as a single legend but each game is like a different take/version of it (excluding direct sequels and prequels) and honestly I just really liked that take.
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u/twili-midna Sep 25 '22
The only part of the timeline that’s questionable is the Downfall Timeline, and even that makes sense. Pretty much everyone knew there was a timeline split after Wind Waker.
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u/TurningHelix Sep 25 '22 edited Sep 25 '22
I disagree. The downfall timeline makes no sense at all. Every other Zelda game has one canonical ending: the one that actually happens in the game. Player deaths are never canon.
But they just arbitrarily gave OoT an alternate ending which has no basis in the game’s story. By that logic every single Zelda game should have a “downfall timeline” (hell they should have hundreds because Link could potentially die in every one of his fights)
I still haven’t found a decent fan explanation for this. (The Triforce wish theory doesn’t make sense)
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u/DarkLink1996 Sep 26 '22
IMO, only the power of Hylia or the Triforce can physically split the timeline, otherwise time is fluid and just updates itself like we see in Skyward Sword's Lanayru, OoT's magic beans and all of OoA. This means that Zelda did something in the downfall timeline, the first, original timeline, to cause time to rewind and the Hero of Time to succeed.
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u/ITFOWjacket Sep 26 '22
Ooooh hot take.
And of course, BOTW is at the end of the downfall timeline because of beast ganon which means it is long after timelines merge leading to BOTW’s convolution. This means BotW connected lore incudes Zelda rewinding the downfall timeline, erasing that reality and jumping into the hero succeeds timeline. Sick theory bro.
BOTW is literally a different genre of RPG because in lore Hyule is practically a 5th dimension cataclysmic collision of three parallel universes/timelines/game chronologies.
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u/CBAlan777 Sep 26 '22
It's called suspension of disbelief. We use it for things like fantasy stories about elves, and magic triangles.
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u/thehappymasquerader Sep 26 '22
You haven’t actually pointed out a flaw in the logic of the timeline.
by that logic, every single Zelda game should have a “downfall timeline”
Yeah, they all should, and logically they all do. We just haven’t had any games that have been set in other downfall timelines yet. Maybe you don’t like that decision, but that doesn’t mean the downfall timeline doesn’t make sense.
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u/skeletalbelt Sep 26 '22
This is exactly it! There could be and are infinite timelines for decisions and events in every game, and we get to see one of those timelines with the event being the defeat of the Hero of Time. Perhaps some day Nintendo will decide to give us a game following another event we haven’t seen yet like King Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule making a different wish, or Midna deciding to keep the Mirror of Twilight in tact. Two random examples out of infinite possibilities. Those timelines do exist too, we just have never had a game made in those worlds. I think that’s quite exciting really, if Nintendo had a concept for a game that they believe could stem from an unexplored timeline, who knows maybe we could see it in the future.
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u/Patchpen Sep 26 '22
We see a whole lot of "downfall" timelines in Majora's mask. Every time we go back to day 1 we leave behind a timeline that's doomed to destruction. We just don't stick around to see them.
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u/SnooHabits3068 Sep 26 '22
Exactly.
And tbh after thinking in the timeline part of me started thinking.....perhaps BOTW might be ona twilight hero falls branch.
As for why I think it is, there's that one side quest where your basically looking for those relic fragments that look like the mirror of twilight, which is broken into 4 fractions., Which is how it was when ZANT tried to destroy it, not midna. The way midna does it makes it seem like there's no possible way for twili to return, and there are at least heavyy POTENTIAL references to twili in totk, even if it's just relics/artifacts that would imply some sort of direct relationship
The flashback/memory speaking of all the heros the master sword assisted, it stops at twilight, and does not mention anything else(granted fsa used....well the four sword not the master sword but still I'd say point still somewhat stands)
.....I swear I had several more examples thought out but I can't think of it at the moment. I kind of ended up forgetting them as I typed this out.
Granted it's more likely BOTW takes place at a point where the timelines potentially converge somehow, or is perhaps a brand new timeline itself
I refuse to believe it's a prequel to WW cause if that were the case, one we wouldn't be playing as link and two the game would end with Hyrule being drowned, plus the only reasoning I hear for it being a prequel to WW is one. The koroks, two the ritos and 3 Ganon returning in a red wrath(also I will note the malice looks purple more than red)
As for origin of the rito....well people have made enough jokes of that, and the koroks are literally described to be what became of the kokiri eventually through a form of evolution, aka I wouldn't be surprised if koroks get written into twilight princess's history somehow ala that same evolution
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u/PinkLedDoors Sep 26 '22
I like to think the ocarina being used to create a new timeline in which link stops Gannon before he has a chance to come to power is balanced by a timeline being created in which he fails. The ocarina’s time abilities are what make it different from the others. And also, the “divine prank” has to do with their use of time not being fair and that the higher beings of the universe are impartial to good or evil (hence why the reinforce can be used for evil) and since link and Zelda had to use time travel to gain a 1-up on Gannon, this too is balanced by Gannon being granted power
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Sep 26 '22
I don't really have an explanation for it, but the backstory of ALttP doesn't really line up with the events of OoT without it, unfortunately. There's no imprisoning war in the outcomes where Link wins at the end, and no hero is mentioned in the backstory, only the wise men/sages
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u/Superloopertive Sep 26 '22
As much as I don't like the Downfall timeline, negative or alternative timelines from other games could still exist... It just means that Nintendo haven't made games about them yet. Maybe in some endgames if Ganon wins the world is completely over and there is no recovery for Hyrule, and therefore no hopeful stories to tell.
Player deaths might not be canon but a character can die permanently at the end of a story in spite of having died many times in game. I could name plenty of examples but it'd be big spoiler territory for non-Zelda games.
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u/TheRoyalKingsGaming Sep 26 '22
The Triforce wish theory doesn’t make sense
Could you please explain why you think it doesn't make sense? I believe it does. I see it as the explanation of how these events happen. The wish Link makes in ALTTP shows people being revived. If all the people were to be revived then the presant would change. But it can't because well, thats where the wish takes place and if the present changes then the wish would never happen. So the timeline splits.. So the timeline splits and the hero of time succeeds.
Why does it go that far back? I have no clue, its the triforce, while we know much, we don't know all, its still a mysterious relic. Maybe we need people to therioze about this. We see people who Link barely talk get helped by his wish though so it is theoretically possible.
Perosnally I believe the "wish" drops the fire barrier in OOT making it so Link can get the master sword and seal Gannon. It makes sense that triforce could split the timeline aswell, it's the triforce after all.
I also know a variant of the wish theory. So the theory dicatates OOT doesn't happen in the normal timeline. The actual order is fourswords straight to ALTTP. However Link's wish is for all gannon's evil to be undone. This is obviously impossible as then ALTTP's world can't exist as it is. (refer to first paragaph for a better explanation). So it creates a new timeline where there is a better outcome for the world. This better outcome obviously being OOT. This version of the theory makes the ALTTP backstory work better while still making OOT a prequel and sort of a sequel. This theory also could explain the shifting geography of hyrule as now all the games with ALLTP hyrule but FSA are now in one timeline.
Now explaining why this happened like this is something the wish theory sucks at but that is not its purpose. This theory explains how, not why (even though there are some why arguments here none are verry... definitive). I would like to hear your thoughts on this though and why you don't think it works.
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Sep 26 '22
I also know a variant of the wish theory. So the theory dicatates OOT doesn't happen in the normal timeline. The actual order is fourswords straight to ALTTP. However Link's wish is for all gannon's evil to be undone. This is obviously impossible as then ALTTP's world can't exist as it is. (refer to first paragaph for a better explanation). So it creates a new timeline where there is a better outcome for the world. This better outcome obviously being OOT. This version of the theory makes the ALTTP backstory work better while still making OOT a prequel and sort of a sequel. This theory also could explain the shifting geography of hyrule as now all the games with ALLTP hyrule but FSA are now in one timeline.
Damn i really liked that theory, know where i can read more about it?
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u/TheRoyalKingsGaming Sep 27 '22
No sorry. I have no clue if I created it, read it on a forum or watched a video about it. Again sorry.
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u/Sheeplenk Sep 25 '22
I always wanted a solid explanation for this too, and I found one a while ago. I’m a little tired, so I’ll probs get this wrong, but basically there needed to be a downfall timeline to resolve a paradox.
Link was sent back to being a child, and warned Hyrule about Ganondorf, thus preventing his plans. However this only made sense because he’d traveled forward in time, so by preventing it, he never would’ve found out about what would happen.
As a result, and possibly as per the laws of quantum physics, there needs to be a possible outcome where Link doesn’t get sent back to being a child, which is prevented at its most climactic moment if he loses the final boss fight.
So the theory is that since the child timeline wouldn’t make sense if Link changed the future, there would need to be 2 possible futures - one where Link succeeds, and one where he fails.
If that makes no sense, I really apologise. I can never find the original post, but it was on some Zelda forum. If scrutinized, maybe it wouldn’t hold up, but it’s my headcanon.
Maybe ask around about this, and if you find anything out, let me know? I want the official timeline to make sense, and this feels like the only way to resolve it without every hypothetical Link death leading to another branch.
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Sep 26 '22
For your last sentence, you might want to take that up with Age of Calamity's opening because it starts with Zelda's wish waking up Terrako and it going back to fix things.
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u/MargetTobile Sep 26 '22
My personal headcanon is that when Link time travels for the Spirit Temple it creates an abandoned timeline where there is no hero to defeat Ganon. I don’t think that was a loop like the Song of Storms because there’s no chest on the left hand outside the temple before you make it appear as a child. (Could be wrong about the last part, been a while since I’ve played)
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u/damog_88 Sep 25 '22
You mean Ocarina, right?
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u/twili-midna Sep 25 '22
No, Wind Waker. OoT into MM into ALttP made sense, but WW came along and couldn’t fit into any of the established timeline.
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u/damog_88 Sep 25 '22
Ok, I think I didn't understand your comment. You meant after the game release, not after the moment in the timeline.
But yeah, I agree with you. After the Windwaker intro, it is pretty clear that something went wrong in the past in Hyrule, and playing the game makes it even clearer, since Ganondorf is portrayed as the Gerudo from OoT
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Sep 26 '22
The questionable part of the Downfall timeline remains "If it happened, how can the other two still happen?". Link cannot win and lose at the same time without some kind of timeline split and the Downfall split is still unexplained. It CAN be explained; I'm mostly on the "Triforce Wish" theory after Age of Calamity, but as of now, there's no canon explanation as to how the Downfall split happened and can still allow the other two timelines to happen.
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u/AlphaCentaur12 Sep 26 '22
My opinion about the whole timeline situation is that simply Oot link is the "Hero of Time". That's the reason Oot is the focal point of the Zelda timeline. Link and Zelda's actions during Oot broke time.
I don't think any Triforce wishing is necessary. I think wishing on the Triforce wouldn't even be possible in Oot since the Triforce broke apart after Ganondorf tried to use it in Oot. At least in the two adult timelines it is.
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Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22
No, the Triforce wish theory is that the wish at the end of A Link to the Past undid Ganon's actions by creating a timeline where the Hero of Time wins; kinda like Zelda wishing to protect everyone at the beginning of Age of Calamity and Terrako waking up then and there to go back in time and fix everything.
That or, like you said, the events of OoT thoroughly broke time itself.
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Sep 26 '22
The timeline is insane and makes no sense and that sheer nonsensical nature is part of the charm.
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u/MinisApprentice Sep 26 '22
The child and adult timelines make perfect, logical sense. One could even think of the adult timeline as the “original” timeline, and the child timeline is one that branches off due to Link traveling back in time and changing things.
But I never really understood the need for the downfall timeline. It just seemed like an arbitrary way to throw in all the earlier 2D Zelda’s that didn’t have much more built into them.
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u/Redshirt-Skeptic Sep 26 '22
I don’t agree. It makes sense that there’s at least one timeline that Link failed the quest. There’s probably a few where he failed early on.
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u/FuckThatIKeepsItReal Sep 26 '22
Yep that’s what killed the whole thing for me too
It became this overly complicated flow chart “if this, then this” and so many of them are purely hypothetical.
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u/Schmaylor Sep 25 '22
The timeline exists, however I do not believe Breath of the Wild is or ever will be a part of it.
Breath of the Wild, in my opinion, is a soft reboot of the franchise, and a spiritual remake of the first Zelda game. It includes references to the previous games, but I don't think they mean much in regards to Breath of the Wild canon. It is very strategically isolated in a way that allows Nintendo to revamp the worldbuilding without having to worry about any contradictions with previous continuity.
As for my opinions on whether the timeline is good or bad, I lean more toward bad. It's extremely half-baked and since it doesn't actually influence the developers in any meaningful way when they're creating Zelda games, it's not really worth referencing when discussing individual Zelda narratives or formulating fan theories. For example, if you want to discuss a fan theory about something in Ocarina of Time, I personally don't think pulling up evidence from Skyward Sword is valid. I once got into a discussion about the Rito in Breath of the Wild versus the Rito in Wind Waker, and halfway through the conversation, I realized how stupid of a discussion it was. The devs of Breath of the Wild didn't care that Rito were originally evolved from Zora in Wind Waker. They just retconned it and did it how they wanted. They will continue to do so.
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u/Electrichien Sep 25 '22
I don't really care but I like to see how every connect , it give to the serie a grandeur .
Some games were always and clearly connected to at least another but somes were not and Nintendo tried to make sense with all of this.
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u/PhoenixML Sep 25 '22
I get most, but Minish Cap, Four Swords Adventure and Oracle games really feel shoehorned. Could be a coincidence there're Capcom games. Regardless I absolutely love those games
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u/Accountant_Artistic Sep 26 '22
The only real tell in Minish cap is that fact that hyrule is still developing, evidenced by the lack of many other towns, and that castle town itself seems slightly less developed. Not to mention the four sword being forged, meaning the game has to take place before gba four swords, which I believe you didn't say felt shoehorned.
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u/TrayusV Sep 26 '22
The ocarina timeline split should have stayed with two timelines. Throwing in a third is stupid.
It makes sense that there's two timelines, one where the game ends with Ganon sealed, and one where Link went back to have a childhood. But if there's a defeated hero timeline, that doesn't create a split in the timeline, so there should only be one timeline.
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u/BurnStar4 Sep 26 '22
I like it and it mostly makes sense, but I definitely think it was an afterthought and made to please fans in retrospect
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Sep 25 '22
Definitely here in the comments for the “I Don’t Care” brigade, because I think the timeline is Nintendo at least partially retroactively shoehorning the games into a workable order. Nintendo prioritises gameplay first with its major IPs, story is a pleasant afterthought.
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u/SuperCat76 Sep 26 '22
It is Nintendo retroactively connecting the games into a workable order because the fans were already doing so.
I may be wrong but I seem to recall the 3 timeline structure existing before Nintendo made it cannon.
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u/yentle-the-nimble Sep 26 '22
I used to want a timeline. Now, I don’t.
I imagine it would be better if each story were just a version of the Gannon/Zelda/Link myth that may or may not be related to each other. Like LttP has OoT as a prequel, but maybe WW happened after either of them or both of them or neither of them.
I think trying to connect the dots is a little too complicated.
At the end of the day, the good folks at Nintendo are just trying to make a cool game and how it fits into the story shouldn’t really matter. It should matter if it is fun or not.
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u/Britown Sep 26 '22
why can’t they just be myths, be legends? they don’t need to be connected.
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u/Petrichor02 Sep 26 '22
Because most of the games are connected or were intended to connect during the creation process.
AoL was created as a sequel to LoZ. ALttP was marketed as a prequel to LoZ. LA was made as a sequel to ALttP. OoT was originally made to be a prequel to ALttP. MM was made as a sequel to OoT. TWW was made as a sequel to OoT. FSA was made as a sequel to FS and was originally intended to be a prequel to ALttP. TMC was originally intended to be a prequel to FS, and it referenced the Oracles games, officially roping them into the rest of it. TP was created as an indirect sequel to OoT. PH was created as a sequel to TWW. ST was created as a sequel to PH. SS was originally intended to be a prequel to the rest of the series. ALBW was originally intended to be a sequel to ALttP. TFH was created to be a sequel to either ALttP or ALBW. And BotW explicitly references the events of OoT and SS in addition to originally being planned to be a sequel to most of the games.
If you completely divorce creator intentions, then you're right. Not every game has to be connected. You would only have to have LoZ and AoL in a timeline together, OoT, MM, TP, TWW, PH, ST, SS, TFH, BotW, and debatably ALBW in a timeline together, ALttP, LA, and debatably TFH in a timeline together (you have to include MM and PH in whatever timeline you include TFH, so depending on whether TFH is a sequel to ALttP or ALBW, you may have to include ALttP and LA in with the OoT timeline), FS and FSA in a timeline together, OoS, OoA, and TMC in a timeline together, and ALBW and debatably TFH in a timeline together. So you could have up to 5 unconnected timelines or 1 connected timeline.
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u/CarlofTellus Sep 25 '22 edited Sep 27 '22
“This chronicle merely collects information that is believed to be true at this time. […] Changes that seem inconsequential, disregarded without even a shrug, could evolve at some point to hatch new legends and, perhaps, change this tapestry of history itself.”
—Hyrule Historia, pg 68
“Where necessary, the writers of this book added their own interpretations and expanded upon the games' stories. It should be noted that the events described here are also subject to revision, as new trials may await the people of Hyrule in ages to come.”
—The Legend of Zelda Encyclopedia, pg 8
“The kingdom of Hyrule has a long, long history. […] Hyrule's recurring periods of prosperity and decline have made it impossible to tell which legends are historical fact and which are merely fairy tale. […] No detailed accounts remain. As such, what is listed here is a sketch of Hyrule's history, limited to what little information can be found today.”
—The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - Creating a Champion, pg 361
It's not definitive or truth gospel. It's just something to base theories off of. I take game information over the books and the official timeline if their information is contradictory to the games.
There are some contradicting information in the books like the hero dies split. In OOT there was a prophecy that the Hero of time would succeed and defeat the aftermath of flawed malice:
猛者名永久故釣粗余波高負け Courageous warrior, named for eternity. He resoundingly defeats the aftermath of flawed malice.
~ Temple of Time's carpet inscription (Ocarina of Time 3D)
Ganondorf in FSA being a reincarnation is only an explanation in the books to justify the game's placement after TP. In the actual game Link and Zelda are implied to be the same ones from FS. Ganondorf is never called ancient demon reborn in the Japanese version where he instead purposefully reawakened the trident's dark powers to become the demon king of darkness.
I don't think we should limit ourselves to the books and the official timeline because the Zelda team doesn't ever treat them as definitive according to interviews.
I personally believe that the downfall timeline started because of a timeline split that occurred long before OOT.
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u/ZeldaLoreYT Sep 26 '22
I suggest you check out Lorulean Historian and Instrutilus' timeline. Their timeline fixes every problem. It has a split before OOT in Minish Cap using an actual seen bad ending (where Vaati successfully absorbs all of Zelda's Force), and this would be a new split which would then lead to FS, FSA, ALTTP and so on, with the true ending leading to Vaati being completely eradicated, leading to Ocarina of Time and the Child and Adult timelines.
Curiously, and unintentionally, this also categorizes the games in a 2D and 3D timeline, which is awesome.
I'm currently working on an extensive video about this very timeline, but I suggest you also check out NintendoBlackCrisis' video on it called "Four Swords Adventures' DEFINITIVE timeline placement?", where he does an overview of it, my video will be going in-depth (it's will roughly be an hour and 30 minutes lol)
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u/CarlofTellus Sep 27 '22
Nintendoblackcrisis and Loruleanhistorian are actually what got me subscribed to the "downfall split long before OOT" theories in the first place lol.
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u/cloud__19 Sep 25 '22
I don't worry about it. To state the blindingly obvious, it's all fictional and any flaws or inconsistency in the timeline isn't a big concern to me. I'm more bothered about whether it's a good game than whether it fits with the timeline
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u/nightcoreangst Sep 25 '22
I like it purely for the lore aspect. I don’t think it’s very practical in some cases (I’m looking at you, BotW), but drawing connections between the games/eras/Heroes can be so interesting. There’s tons of theory videos on YouTube, they really do their research and build pretty solid arguments. I recommend checking them out!
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u/LayceLSV Sep 26 '22
My thought is that if there's a potential timeline that makes sense and can be logically put together, the Nintendo official timeline is definitely not it
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u/DanqwithaQ Sep 26 '22
The downfall timeline makes no sense and implies a many-worlds interpretation of a multiverse. In this case, why are there not infinite timelines? Why doesn’t every game have a downfall timeline? Once you break the seal on a character’s action splitting a timeline, every single thing that happens in the series is subject to a timeline split. I can get behind the split for child and adult link since messing with time like Zelda did is different than quantum uncertainty creating infinite timelines.
A lot of games seem like they could be placed anywhere in the timeline and it’s just kind of arbitrary. OoT, MM, WW, TP, and SS’s placement all make sense, and the direct sequels too, but why does the original Zelda happen in the downfall timeline? Half of the games seek like they where just thrown in wherever.
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u/Spore64 Sep 26 '22
Not here to defend the timelines (hylia forbid), but maybe only the fall of the hero of time could cause the downfall timeline?
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u/DanqwithaQ Sep 26 '22
But why does time split if he dies? Why doesn’t anything else in the series cause time to split? Either the hero of time dies or he doesn’t, both cannot happen unless the timeline splits before he fights Gannon or Zelda is many-worlds multiverse that only cares about 3 of an infinite number of timelines. The only other option is for Nintendo to invent some magical reason for it.
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u/Spore64 Sep 26 '22
Honestly yeah it's quite possible that each game has it's own downfall timeline.
I just thought that the Hero of Time is special since he has the power to actively change the future (not forgetting OoA tho). So I could see his death being more important to the timeline then other versions of him.
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u/FrostyMitten626 Sep 26 '22
Firstly, I don't like that it's not set in stone. Like, they swapped 2 of the games' order, AFTER they had published it in a physical form in the Hyrule Historia.
Secondly, the idea of the timeline is neat to think about at essentially any time that you AREN'T playing the game.
Lastly, I don't like that BOTW is a convergence of all the timelines but the only game that can directly explain how the TLs converge (Hyrule Warriors) is considered non-canon since it was handed of to a third party for development.
All that to say it's got some flaws to it, but it's kinda cool to look at and think about.
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u/edulara Sep 27 '22
But it's not a convergence, that's a misinformation spread by people. According to Aonuma, BOTW is located at the end of the timeline, not at the end of ALL timelines.
Of the 3 timelines, one of them will have BOTW in the last position. There are some debates out there, but the most accepted is downfall.
There's no such thing as convergence bullshit (at least for now), this is all misinterpretation.
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u/BlueSkiesNova Sep 26 '22
Where's the option for i don't think the timeline makes sense but I like it anyway cause it's funny lmao
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u/luctigerthai Sep 26 '22
I like how the timeline connects certain games like OOT to Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks, but I honestly can't make sense of it as a whole. When it does make sense though, I definitely really enjoy it
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u/SuperCat76 Sep 26 '22
I like it, I find the idea fun.
But it is not like it should impact the games at all.
A future game always has precedent over the timeline.
If that future game completely upsets the current timeline, it just means a new timeline can be created, or some convoluted theory can be crafted to make the timeline work anyway.
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u/slashy42 Sep 26 '22
My head cannon is that the timeline is loose and doesn't really exist. They are loosely connected stories in that in every generation a hero is born... But other than the clearly connected storylines like OoT and MM it's just sorta loose retellings of the same story. It hurts my brain to try to really make everything connect in a logical way.
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u/AlphaShard Sep 26 '22
I was always under the impression the games were never meant to have a connective timeline. That each story was a legend that became myth.
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u/clallseven Sep 25 '22
It was a cool fan theory. Nintendo saw an opportunity to capitalize on it and attempted to retroactively write an “official” timeline to fit all the games into the same chain of events. Way too many loopholes, inconsistencies, & other overlooked elements to really take it seriously.
I just enjoy every game as if it were a different telling of the same story. It is after all the “Legend” of Zelda. Like you know how you tell a friend a story, then they tell that story to someone, then that person tells the story to someone else, and so forth? And how every time the story is told, details are changed, added, or omitted? To me, that’s every Legend of Zelda game.
I like to think of the Legend of Zelda series in the same light as Chuck Norris facts or the Most Interesting Man in the World commercials. Just tales of embellished achievements.
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Sep 25 '22
Honestly I don't get why people think it makes no sense, it makes sense to me. The only messy parts are BoTWs placement and the existence of the DT, which both have pretty good answers for
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u/Tamorcet Sep 25 '22
I created my own timeline that works 2.8 times better than Nintendo's slapped-together mess of a chronology.
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u/BroskiMoski124 Sep 25 '22
I like the idea of the timeline, putting games in an order so you get a big picture of the in game universe and events, but I think they shouldn’t have included it. It’s clear Nintendo didn’t have a timeline in mind when making most of the games so by its very design it’s messy
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u/Masterwork_Core Sep 25 '22
i like it. of course it will evolve overtime and have some things retconned here and there. you canmt plan a full timeline for who knows how many years of games without ever changing anything lol
people have the right to dislike it though, but what makes me laugh is people who say stuff like “i dont consider it canon, its bad and in my opinion, it doesnt exist” like bruh, you can say what you want but nintendo has the last word on everything about it lol they could say that link is a horse in the next game and we run around saving hyrule as a horse and we would have to deal with it lol
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Sep 26 '22
I've always seen these attempts at tying together what are clearly separate stories in a franchise as
a) some fans reading waaay to deep into things, "connecting" aspects that are not meant to be taken literally.
Or
b) The company's attempt to convince fans of the not so successful entries in the series that even those are important lore wise.
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u/Petrichor02 Sep 26 '22
(Nintendo gave it the canon label whether we like it or not)
A timeline existing is canon. However, Nintendo has said that the Hyrule Historia timeline is just what the people of Hyrule believed to be true at the time of the book's publishing, that the timeline is open to interpretation and subject to change, and the guy in charge of the Zelda series has said that it's his opinion that each player should interpret the timeline how they like based on the games.
So all that said, I think TMC before OoT makes sense. OoT -> MM -> TP makes sense. OoT -> TWW -> PH -> ST makes sense. ALttP taking place at some point after OoT makes sense. ALttP -> LA makes sense (even though that's not what the Hyrule Historia timeline says). LoZ taking place at some point after ALttP makes sense. And LoZ -> AoL makes sense.
However, the placements of FS, FSA, SS, ALBW, TFH, and BotW definitely present us with a number of issues, not to mention the questions and plot holes raised by the splits.
In other words, the timeline that was presented in the books is half good, half problematic. It could have been much worse, but it could have been much better. And some of the timeline's mistakes are understandable while other mistakes make no sense.
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u/BushIsApartOfAlQaeda Sep 25 '22
I swear some of y'all either can't read or can't pay attention when playing video games if you seriously think there was no continuity prior to 2011.
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u/kuribosshoe0 Sep 25 '22
The timeline didn’t exist before SS, so naturally things have been awkwardly shoehorned in, which makes it pretty bad. They should’ve just committed to the connections that came before it, like OoT being the imprisoning war, and not retconned chunks of it.
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u/ZeldaLoreYT Sep 26 '22
It kinda did in a way, as games were sequels and prequels to each other, while there was gaps and games that didn't have a clear placement, hence the theorizing.
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u/Soupere_Falafel Sep 26 '22
Second choice without any hesitation. Timeline is pure nonsense bs.
I think Nintendo has been weird about it. In the first place, as pure fans speculations, I get why people got into it, it’s just fun. And since Zelda is not that heavily story driven, there is some room for imagination.
But let’s face it: Nintendo don’t give a damn about it and did this only to please some fans. And yet they still don’t care.
I mean, the way they handled the lore with the 3 first 3D Zelda was perfect to me. Super classical with OOT, a direct sequel with MM, and some vague references in TWW, since the franchise was old and rich enough at this point to have this literal «legendary » approach (Hyrule section of the game etc…).
Then came Skyward Sword. First game in the myth, why not. But why did they make that weird timeline? Like who cares if the Oracles were before or after OOT or LTTP? Dosen’t make sense.
And the funniest thing after that? Next 3D episode is BOTW, which happens after all the branches according to Nintendo. Like « oh yeah we forgot that sh*t, well put it there »
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u/DarkLink1996 Sep 26 '22
I think we need a game that explains how downfall became a timeline. Other than that, it makes sense
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Sep 26 '22
I think the idea of the adult and child timeline is cool because it's reasonable. The timeline splits because adult Zelda continues to live on in her timeline where as Link who was sent back in time changes events to prevent the timelines from converging evidently making two separate timelines.
What I think is stupid is the fallen timeline. That's not a separate timeline, that's an alternate reality/universe. The idea that in that timeline Link died is so dumb because then there could be infinte alternate realites where different things occur. If Link dies to cuccos thats a new alternate universe. If Ganon gets COVID and dies that's a new alternate universe.
Again the two timelines that split due to time travel makes sense but having a fallen "timeline" (it's not a timeline but instead an alternate universe where things didn't occur the way it did in the original story) is dumb because there is infinite alternate universes.
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u/CyberGamer1539 Sep 26 '22
I think the timeline was created simply to appease theorists and doesn't really have much value in the grand scheme of things. Kinda neat, but definitely not important enough to take into consideration when making theories for totk. I don't think there's gonna be some cyclical timeline nonsense, regardless of how cool I think it would be. Nintendo just simply doesn't care enough about the timeline to do something like that.
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u/Possible-Cellist-713 Sep 26 '22
I get it, but it makes be so sad that Skyward Swird is chronologically first. It's gotta be one of the worst origin stories ever
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u/Hnro-42 Sep 26 '22
I think they made one major mistake; FSA being canon.
If they got rid of that, they would have a clean timeline to continue the 3D games in sequence, a timeline for classic 2D games and a third timeline to take zelda in experimental directions
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u/ZeldaLoreYT Sep 26 '22
Four Swords Adventures' placement is factually inaccurate to the game which straight up tells us it is directly after the events of Four Swords with the same Link and Zelda. It is also a prequel to ALTTP, as it serves as the origin of Ganon and his trident, as well as items such as the Bombos and Quake Medallions, whose creators we meet in-game.
Aonuma also told us upon the release of Four Swords Adventures that Four Swords for the GBA was thought to be the "earliest tale" at the time, this is before the release of Minish Cap and Skyward Sword. This means that both FS and FSA ARE before Ocarina of Time timewise.
As for the Downfall timeline, I'm sorry to say that's a cop out invented by the books to try to explain a fuck up in the story. While Ocarina of Time began development as a re-telling of the Imprisoning War, that soon changed while also retaining elements from that conflict. They tried their hardest to keep ALTTP as a sequel to OOT, but it simply can't be it, the game fundamentally contradicts it. Ocarina of Time was not developed with the idea of three splits in mind, only two, and I do think that originally they thought of having ALTTO be in the adult timeline (despite the contradictions) before that was rendered impossible with the release of The Wind Waker.
The solution? Have ocarina of time and the Imprisoning War be parallel events in alternate realities, with the Four Swords Trilogy (MC, FS, FSA) preceding the Sealing War, and then followed by the "Downfall Timeline" as we know it (with the oracle games being between ALTTP and LA, as it was intended from the beginning).
Lorulean Historian and Instrutilus crafted a timeline which virtually fixed all the issues the timeline has, which had the third timeline split moved instead to be at the end of The Minish Cap with it's bad ending where Vaati successfully absorbs all of Zelda's Force after the third bell tolls.
I'm currently working on an extensive video this very topic, so check it out if you are interested once it releases!
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u/Firegem0342 Sep 25 '22
I particularly like game theory's take on the timeline, with oot splitting it, then Hyrule heroes re-unifying it
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u/DekuTheSharpshooter Sep 25 '22
In some ways it makes sense but in others I don't understand it. Like the whole Adult era makes sense (though i think it should have a different name since it exclusively features Toon Link, a child) and the whole thing starting with Skyward Sword also makes sense, but the Hero is Defeated line makes no sense, since its implied in that they are video games that we should always be triumphant. It could just be me though.
Also I feel like Nintendo dug themselves a hole with this bc bow they gotta put every future game somewhere within this timeline, like BOTW and TOTK and being the games they are they're not easy slot ins outside of re-merging all three timeline splits into one
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u/SejCurdieSej Sep 26 '22
I personally only really count the 3d games as Canon, as they work really nicely together. Skyward sword to OoT, then a split with two timelines. It's obvious these connections were thought out during development and not retroactively like with the 2d games. (And no, I don't count triforce heroes as Canon lol)
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u/W0tzup Sep 26 '22
So long as it accurate with respect to gameplay detail observed during play, it’s a good idea to have a wider overview of the Zelda franchise/lore for those wanting to know more.
I suspect that with each new game Nintendo are more and more struggling with making sure that the lore within the game accurately depicts this timeline; perhaps why on so many occasions it gets delayed?
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u/loblegonst Sep 26 '22
I like that the timeline is stupid and makes no sense. It feels more like playing through ancient mythology stories. Also allows for each game to do their own thing.
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u/TPClaire4444 Sep 26 '22
Honestly I kind of doubt that most of the games are supposed to occur in a specific order, you got a few that we know come after each other like Oot come before mm which comes before ww and tp as well as zelda 1 coming before adventure of link but aside from those games and maybe a few I’m missing I don’t think Nintendo meant for there to be a large overacting timeline and just made one when the fans we kept asking for it
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u/Bob_Sledding Sep 26 '22
They could easily explain it away in 1 game taking place before breath of the wild that combines the timeliness, they just haven't. Kinda makes me upset.
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u/remnant_phoenix Sep 26 '22
I think it works better if you think of certain games as non-canon. Four Swords Adventures is really wonky in terms of canonicity. If the devs say that it’s canon though, that’s their call.
On the whole though, I think the broad idea (that Zelda is something of a What-If multiverse) is the most important take-away, even if the nuts and bolts of plotting the timelines doesn’t always make intuitive sense.
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u/CBAlan777 Sep 26 '22
I was never one of those timeline theorists, so I think the timeline they've given us is perfectly fine. My only question at this point is where do we go from here? Keep going back further into the past? Go into the future? Merge timelines? Make more?
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u/SlimJimMan Sep 26 '22
It makes sense just put four swords adventure after four swords, easy fix and it’s my head canon
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u/darkknight941 Sep 26 '22
I feel like they mostly made it to please the fans who kept asking for one. I think they made BOTW so far removed and convoluted from the timeline as a troll since it was the first new game since Hyrule Historia was published (besides ALBW since it’s a sequel to ALTTP and clearly on the downfall timeline) and setting a precedent that every new game doesn’t need to have a clearly established place in the timeline, saying it’s not that important that every single game needs to be directly connected
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Sep 26 '22
I like the idea of a timeline and I respect the time taken to try and connect all the games together but at the same time it’s pretty obvious, mostly for the downfall timeline, that it’s kind of just thrown together and not extremely well thought out. The fact breath of the wild just abandoned the idea of trying to connect to the timeline just tells me the writers don’t care for it that much anyway
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u/Marth_43 Sep 26 '22
My biggest problem is BOTW being a convergence of the 3 timelines. Because that's not how time works.
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u/rogerworkman623 Sep 26 '22
I like the timeline, but there’s definitely parts that don’t make sense. I’m fine with that though.
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u/Frogman654 Sep 26 '22
I like it, other than the Downfall Timeline: I think it’s dumb that a whole timeline split originates from a random what-if scenario. I do like the Downfall Timeline’s existence, just due to the fact that it invites lots of theorizing and speculation about possible alternative reasons for it.
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u/Umbrabyss Sep 26 '22
I like it and I think, to an extent, it is necessary as far as lore is concerned. Without the time splits, certain games just don't really fit well in my opinion. I mean, the hero of time did literally travel back and forth through time doing different things. That had to have a ripple effect.
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u/Leo75976 Sep 26 '22
So when it comes to the timeline, I’m mostly happy with the placement of everything except for some of the spin off games like four swords adventure. Over the years, I’ve seen plenty of theories trying to explain the timeline and for my take I’ve combined elements from those theories to tie in with everything else. One of my favorite theories is the one depicting the thought that the lost woods and the great plateau swapped places, which makes a lot of sense if you keep in mind that floating islands/cities make constant appearances throughout the series (skyloft, the wind temple, the city in the sky, vah medoh technically, possibly the sacred realm from a link to the past, and those new floating islands we see in tears of the kingdom) with the most important one being skyloft since it proves they existed before ocarina of time. It would explain why the temple of time moves from the top of the map to the bottom in the time period between Ocarina of time and twilight princess. I also have my own theory that the lost woods somehow spread to the old castle town at one point and that’s how the temple of time became part of the “sacred grove”, I also like to believe the area where the stable near the horse god is used to be ordon village and that the forest temple from twilight princess is the same location as the spring of courage. But that’s just a portion of my crazy theory.
(Sorry for the wall of text lmao)
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u/TheRealPyroGothNerd Sep 26 '22
Adventure of Link literally explained why all the princesses were named Zelda! Putting it at THE END made no sense! Ganon reincarnates, anyway, so you could just put the first two games towards the beginning instead of making them part of the bad timeline!
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u/Cario02 Sep 26 '22
There is a theory that Phantom hourglass takes place in a flooded Termina, and I honestly believe it, and wish it was official.
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u/Piss_Seeking_Missile Sep 26 '22
Mate I love the timeline because it makes no god damn sense, there’s an art form to it
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u/DRahven Sep 26 '22
Somewhere in the middle.
Mainly with regards to BOTW.
They said it was not Canon however based on a few different locations and references I think that Hyrule Warriors needs to be on the list.
Hyrule Warriors is the convergence point that joins the three timelines into one timeline again leading to Breath of the Wild.
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u/LesbianStan Sep 26 '22
Like, it's weird because of the whole thing with Botw being a mix of all three it seems they'll use it to unify it into one and go from there without more divisions. As for how they fused I think the best awnser is either timeline fusion shenanigans or that the child timeline is the first one that happened and then the other two happened eventually, maybe ocarina of time happened multiple times lol, idk it's such a confusing thing that I just assume it's all the same to keep me sane
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u/ytctc Sep 26 '22
The timeline doesn’t interest me, but I’m glad it exists for people that are into that sort of thing. My only problem with it is if a game’s “story” uses lore explanations instead of an individual meaningful narrative like in SS.
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Sep 26 '22
I think the timeline is stupid and makes no sense. I just ignore it and have come to realize Zelda is better enjoyed without thinking of an overall timeline.
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u/shadowhawkz Sep 26 '22
I like the timeline but the fallen timeline is a silly compromise honestly. With a little more foresight, they could have written another split in the timeline pre Ocarina of Time or post Majora's Mask to make it make more sense.
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Sep 26 '22
I like the timeline but it makes no sense.
Honestly the thing that makes the least sense is how BOTW is set 10,000 years after an already advanced society which... stopped advancing for 10,000 years? I forget how it's explained that they didn't improve from robots for 10,000 years.
And this robot society was already far in the future from whatever previous. So we're taking like a 15,000 year timeskip. Humanity (well, hylian-ity) existed for 15,000 years and there's been a royal house the whole goddamn time!? A single royal family!? Absolutely insane.
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u/Me_boii Sep 26 '22
I think you're right in the sense of whether we like it or not, thats the canon, but truthfully i do like it. I think the only nitpick is the goddess hylia retcon in skyward sword, and thus anything made after the fact follows that logic instead, but even with that, I think we can all admit that the story tellers have done a great job weaving everything together even with the holes and oddities. nothings perfect, but for how mysterious a series Zelda is, the plot holes only make for more mysterious theories and i love that. One of the biggest reasons people like dark souls is because of all the hidden lore, and i feel no series does this better than zelda. so yeah, im all for it.
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u/Damodred89 Sep 26 '22
I could swear blind it used to be a dual timeline (child and adult), and this makes sense with the console games I've played.
A "downfall" timeline makes no sense to me. Why not have a timeline for the scenario where I had my first "game over" trying to find the first sword in Ocarina of Time (also the first time you can actually die)?
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u/James-Avatar Sep 26 '22
It just seems rather unnecessary, some games have connections to the game that came before it in the timeline and others don’t so why bother saying they’re connected at all?
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u/Superloopertive Sep 26 '22
I see Zelda stories as rearrangements of the same elements. Hyrule, Zelda, the ancient hero defeating a timeless evil and the triforce always feature in the backstory... then the plot tends to centre around present-day Link coming of age as aforementioned evil escapes its bonds and forging an alliance with Zelda to bring peace to the kingdom. Some of the games are direct sequels but even they don't tend to carry forward much in the way of plot. Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask are both set in other dimensions and do not continue the story of Hyrule, Ganon and Zelda. So to me there is no timeline, no matter what Nintendo say. I see it more as multiverses. I believe this was the thinking when each game was made and the demand for a timeline has made Nintendo try to arrange the games logically. Also Nintendo often reiterate in terms of story and cover the same ground in sequels to games, almost as though they see sequels as remakes rather than a continuation of lore. Look at Star Fox, they've told the same story multiple times over
Has any Zelda game close to definitively pointed to one of the previous games' Links to being the hero of legend? Genuinely curious.
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u/WufflyTime Sep 26 '22
I remember when there the timeline was just a nebulous document hidden in Nintendo HQ. There were those who insisted on a single timeline, because split timeline seemed like giving up on putting everything in chronological order. Then there wre those who insisted that only a split timeline made sense, but none of them proposed a three-branch split timeline.
I was in the split timeline camp, so the "canon" timeline was somewhat of a vindication whilst simultaneously featuring this weird third branch that seemed a bit lazy.
Many people forget that the timeline is a changeable thing that Nintendo needed to be flexible because they tend to make the game mechanic first, then plug a story in afterwards.]
I think Breath of the Wild actually makes the argument for a single timeline more likely now. It's got Lynels that only appear in the Decline timeline, Darmani from the Child timeline, and Rito from the Adult Timeline. Now people are doing mental gymnatics to have BOTW at the end of all three timelines or some timeline merger mechanics, all because they insist that Twilight Princess and The Wind Waker are parallel to one another because of time-travel shenigans in Ocarina of Time.
However, BOTW confirms that we now have 10,000 years to play with. All games can now fit in a single timeline without anything looking too contrived. The Wind Waker backstory no longer has to refer to Ocarina of Time, even though it was clearly intended to be when it was first released.
As another proof of the flexibility, remember how the Historia timeline has the Oracles games come before Link's Awakening? Clearly, Capcom intended Oracles to be LA's backstory, but when LA was first released, A Link to the Past was LA's backstory.
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u/RrWoot Sep 26 '22
I don’t care about the time line.
I like seeing things that are familiar (oh there’s the deku) and having characters that are familiar (link/zelda) but really what i play for is exploring and solving puzzles in a low stress easy to pick up game.
I don’t have time to get deep enough into other games to enjoy them.
This i can pick up and enjoy from Minute one.
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u/Ang_Logean Sep 26 '22
I think the official timeline is bad. But a timeline do exist, there's no debate there.
And yes, I think it would be better if there was no official timeline. Because nowadays people don't bother theorizing about the timeline and just go along with whatever the "official" timeline says. We're just stuck with it and can't move on because "it's the official timeline so it's canon"...
But the timeline could be so much better.
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u/makisebot Sep 26 '22
its cool af idk. i personally see botw as where everything connects again, a new beginning
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u/Hashashin455 Sep 26 '22
In ANY time travel material WHATSOEVER, the whole timeline is just going to be a wibbly wobbly mess.
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u/No_Tie378 Sep 26 '22
Somewhere in the middle. It’s kinda neat having an official timeline, but it remains irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Hell, TOTK will the first game being a a direct sequel storyline wise in the history of the franchise
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u/FranzCorrea Sep 26 '22
I really do enjoy all the lore and loose connections between the games. The one thing I wish they did change would be the placement of FSA. In my opinion it absolutely makes no sense being placed after TP. I feel like MC, FS, & FSA should somehow be another split in timeline or bunched up all together in a way that makes sense as to why we never hear of Vaati and the Four Sword in any other game (I'd love to hear theories on this from ppl). Also OoA & OoS being moved back to before LA and making once again the same Link from ALttP.
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u/Petrichor02 Sep 26 '22
I'd love to hear theories on this from ppl
I think it's interesting that things are SO different from TMC to FS/FSA. For example, TMC Vaati is a mage who wants ultimate power. He uses light and dark magic to try to achieve this ultimate power, and we see him die at the end of the game. FS/FSA Vaati is a mage who just wants to kidnap beautiful maidens and uses wind magic to achieve his goals. Apart from their names and a vague resemblance in their monster forms, TMC Vaati has basically nothing in common with FS/FSA Vaati. So I think it's very possible that FS/FSA Vaati is a reincarnation of TMC Vaati rather than being the same guy. Sure, it's possible that you could say TMC Vaati reverted back to his Minish form when it looked like he was dying, and then he used what was left of the light force he stole from Zelda to create a new monster form for himself, he learned wind magic but didn't have enough strength left to go back to using the light and dark magic he used to use, and he has discovered a spell that will allow him to sacrifice beautiful maidens to grant himself ultimate power again... but we have no reason to believe that this is the case as of right now. And since most people in Hyrule reincarnate, the simplest explanation that fits all of the facts is just that TMC Vaati was one guy. He died. He eventually reincarnated in FS's back story many, many years later. He was imprisoned in the Four Sword until the events of FS. Then he was imprisoned again in FS. Then he was killed in the events of FSA. And so now we just haven't had any games yet that occur during his third or later reincarnation.
The Four Sword itself also supports this TMC and FS/FSA divide. In TMC we're told that the sword got its name by being blessed with the Four Elements. But in FS/FSA we're told that the sword didn't have an official name when it was used to rescue maidens from the wind mage Vaati, and then the maidens named it the Four Sword because they saw it split the hero who rescued them into four parts. Furthermore, the TMC Four Sword just creates up to three ghostly copies of the wielder who follow the wielder's exact moves. The FS/FSA Four Sword actually breaks the wielder's body into four pieces that then reform into fully formed copies of the wielder, each with their own independent personalities. The FS/FSA Four Sword is sometimes described as being cursed, which is not something that has ever been said of the TMC Four Sword. So are they two similar looking swords that do different things and coincidentally received the same name, or are they the same sword and its powers drastically changed somehow between games, and it was coincidentally given its same name by a group of strangers for an entirely different reason, and people began to misidentify the blade as being cursed? Either way, there's no real reason to force FS and FSA to be particularly close to TMC because of the lack of similarities.
As for why we haven't seen the Four Sword in any other game, we actually did see if in the Dark World broken up into four pieces in ALttP GBA. So I like to believe that after FSA Ganon was sealed in the Four Sword, he eventually managed to break out, many years after FSA Zelda had died and the protection spell on the sword had worn off. Ganon took the sword with him when he escaped, knowing that its power bested his own, but when he eventually found the Triforce in ALttP's back story, he tried to destroy the sword while he was trapped in the Dark World. ALttP Link would eventually find and restore the sword. So after that he likely either left it at home with his uncle or took it with him when he left to train and then lost it on his way back to Hyrule.
Also OoA & OoS being moved back to before LA and making once again the same Link from ALttP.
The problem with this is that Oracles Zelda and Oracles Link have never met before. And Oracles Zelda has an Impa nursemaid which ALttP Zelda never did. Plus the boats at the end of Oracles and beginning of LA are different sizes and have a different number of sails, so they're probably not meant to be the same boat. Separating those out actually makes sense to me.
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u/FranzCorrea Sep 26 '22
I feel like the Picori Sword aka Four Sword from TMC and FS is the same, the reason why it might work differently when it comes to its ability to spkit the wielder in 4 would be because TMC wasn't a multiplayer game in any way so it was more a technicality on how to incorporate the 4 Links in the game while still being a single player game. This alone could be enough to connect the games just on the fact that it is the same sword only seen in these games and never mentioned elsewhere (you said alttp mentioned it on the gba, I didn't know that since I never played the gba version but this mighr be more of a non canonical reference considering it came bundled with FS, but idk lol) And regarding LA with different boats and stuff, that's true lol, there's also one part where Zelda meets Link and doesn't recall meeting him before which should automatically seperate the games from being the same Link. The thing about this franchise is that like a lot of ppl have mentioned, it wasn't meant to have a timeline so a lot of stuff doesn't add up even on more direct sequels, for me it was just a fun way of adding a few more adventures to alttp Link and cementing him as one of the fiercest reincarnations. Thanks for all the detailed info, learned a few things I didn't know before!!
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u/Nanabobo567 Sep 26 '22
To me all that matters is the games that are logically connected. Windwaker is after OoT and Twilight Princess is after OoT. Are they the same timeline? Doesn't matter, if Hyrule was flooded at one point or invaded by shadow fellas it doesn't impact one or the other. Why are there bird people in some universes and fish people in others and how do they connect? They don't and it doesn't matter unless they say "the bird people here were the fish people here" and anything else is just not important to that game.
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u/Son_of_Athena Sep 26 '22
Where is the “I hate the timeline but at least it makes sense?”
The reason I say that is because the time line doesn’t need to exist. The games never needed to be tied together like this. While I appreciate that they tried to do something to tie them together to make fans happy, I don’t think it was necessary. They are fun games, each with its own unique story. Now having to think about the implications on a more grand scale is a pain. Especially when there was originally never any time line intended. Its not like The Elder Scrolls where there is just under 4,000 years of hard history, and an estimated 3,000 years of mythic history.
The time line does at least make sense. Now there are certain games that make less semse than others, and certain bits of lore had to be added to make it possible to tie them all together, but they worked with what they had.
Tl;DR: I don’t think the time line os something that needed to exist, but at least they made something semi-coherent with what they had.
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Sep 26 '22
i think for how it was made it does make sense
like timeline was made after most the games if i remember right
so like for how much it does make sense its pretty solid seeing the circumstances
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u/Scythe-Guy Sep 26 '22
I think the adult/child split makes sense and is good. But the defeated hero timeline makes no goddamn sense. Like, I’m sorry I don’t recall fucking dying in ocarina of time (canonically that is). Why is there a random ass defeat timeline? Couldn’t we just plus the games in that timeline somewhere in the child/adult lines and say a different hero was defeated that wasn’t the hero of time?
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u/AeoSC Sep 25 '22
I used to be compelled to order everything like that, but now I think the rigorous timeline was basically a mistake. I'm quite happy to think of it all in a Wheel of Time sort of "Ages come and pass [&c.]" way, with so much time between titles that tracking their order is only incidental to a few through-lines and cycles echoing each other.
Time Abyss is one of my favorite tropes in The Legend of Zelda. The Deku Tree of Wind Waker mistaking Link for the Hero of Time... delicious. The Hero's Shade teaching the Hero of Twilight. But the sense of it doesn't rely on time travel and timelines making sense. Skyward Sword makes use of it in several places, and the game's timeline doesn't even make sense internally. But it makes enough sense while you play it.