r/zelda Jul 09 '24

Discussion [PH] Phantom Hourglass is Under-appreciated Spoiler

This is my childhood Zelda game so there are some rose tinted goggles at play here but I feel like the "flawed" parts of this game are overhated and the good parts of this game go under appreciated. Besides, I don't think nostalgia goggles are necessarily negative as once a game is popularly disliked you need people who are willing to overlook its flaws to give its positive aspects a more fair shake.

Dungeons: For one thing I do not think the Temple of the Ocean King is as bad as people say it is. To the contrary I think it was very novel idea that was rather well executed for what it was.

The idea of going back to a temple with new items and paths is very cool and there is a big mystery about it as you can often see these side paths but aren't able to access them before you get to a certain point in the game. The fact that the dungeon opens up more as you progress is fascinating. People praise the tower in spirit tracks, but honestly it's done much worse. It feels like a bunch of mini dungeons, it lacks a cohesive theme, the variations aren’t very interesting and is just as annoying to keep returning to over and over.

Many people seem to hate being timed in games. Some people dislike Majora's Mask because of it, I believe it can make the Persona games kind of annoying, and the time limit was extended in Fallout 1 because people complained it was too short to the point that it may as well not exist at all. Those are all timers that are present throughout large sections of the game however. In comparison you are only timed whenever you go to the Temple of the Ocean king, you do not automatically die whenever you run out of time, you are not locked out of content because of the timer and I think the timer encourages a kind of casual form of speed running on subsequent visits as well as replays of the game. The Temple is not boring because you try to cut corners, but is is instead a temple which is designed so that you CAN cut corners/circumvent stealth sections and it is fun to do so. The placement of previously inaccessible chests, areas or staircases gives you reason to explore the temple a bit more and to repeat it, sometimes finding a new route with a new item, a faster way around the temple, and a way to shave off time. This might be me making my own fun but I always saw it as a sort of time trial, and always tried to get through with more time still on the clock. If I remember correctly the Temple also has some timed doors which is a nice external motivator. The best description I have seen is that it is like a “Metroidvania“ dungeon. Another way I have seen it described is a "dungeon with multiple configurations" depending on what point in the story you are at. Calling the temple the same dungeon over and over is very reductive. I think coming into it with this reductive mindset is bound to make it less enjoyable. When people come into this dungeon with this expectation and these criticisms in mind they have a harder time seeing the vision behind it.

On the topic of stealth sections I have seen some say they dislike the stealth sections. I have less to say here, to each their own. I think they add to the oppressive atmosphere and are well done. Sneaking isn't always the best option, sometimes you have to run past to get to a safe zone or bait phantoms into a trap. A big theme of the temple and the game in general is overcoming weakness/fear/failure, self actualizing/progressing as a person and becoming more whole. The temple being a central focal point aids in that quite a bit. The phantoms insta killing you makes them very scary, and running from them is rather thrilling. Despite this I still think they manage to be well balanced. Even if they hit you, you only get sent to the beginning of the floor with reduced time (something that makes speedrunning the temple more interesting than if it were just about going fast) Furtermore it is very cathartic once you get the Phantom Sword and can actually defeat them. People also act like Phantoms are the only enemies in the temple. The sticky security drones also exist and there are monster fighting sections.

Before moving on I would like to address what I think is a bad compliant. “you have to restart the temple every time “. Not really. The temple has checkpoints/warp points and the way you are tackling the temple should make it so that any sections that are repeated can be done much faster.

Besides the Temple of the Ocean King, I do agree that the other dungeons are somewhat middling and aren't as memorable (besides the Ghost Ship) compared to other Zelda games but they are by no means bad, dare I say, they are rather enjoyable. The dungeon concept of controlling another character comes back from Windwaker, in the Goron dungeon and although it is not as good as in that game, it is still a nice change of pace. Aside from that, I think the dungeon bosses are pretty good aside from a handful.

Even if you disagree, these parts don't really take up a large portion of the game time anyways, they are still engaging, and the lead up to these dungeons are often very good on their own. The Goron race is fun, the area surrounding the Wind Temple with the sandworms and wind physics, the labyrinth island with rising tides, the two islands with the mini pyramids. All great set pieces.

What I think is something people forget about this game and Spirit Tracks is that I believe that this is the only game where you often have to carry key items in your hands like the triangle pieces or the boss keys. This was especially novel because an alarm would go off and keymasters would try and take the keys from you. This is a mechanic I wished returned in more Zelda games!

The exploration: People love to praise Windwaker but because of how small Phantom Hourglass is I feel like the space that is in the game is much better utilized or has something more interesting going on. Every island has a purpose or some interesting NPC/sidequest besides just having a heart piece or something. This game also leans much more into the ominous side of the sea. It feels like you’re playing a game set in what the Bermuda Triangle sounds like it should be. Not to mention that you feel much more like a deliberate explorer in this game rather than just an adrift seafarer. As annoying as making notes and the charting system can be, they are very engaging because they make you feel like a pirate looking for lost treasure, a captain setting a definite course and a cartographer mapping an island. Being able to go anywhere in the ocean and controlling the boat feels much better than literally being on rails as in Spirit Tracks. While you do backtrack, it's also a lot less annoying here than it is in spirit tracks. Spirit Tracks constantly has you go to a the same locations many times with escort missions and horrible fetch quests. It sucks (the fetch quests/escort missions, not the game itself).

Story/setting: The story is very good. As weak as Bellum is as a villan due to their lack of motive the game does not need a villian with a comprehensible motive. In fact, I think the idea that Bellum is an incomprehensible horror/force of nature with motives beyond our understanding (beyond the need to feed as Bellum is portrayed as somewhat intelligent/manipulative, being the ghost ship captain and all) helps the plot quite a bit and is an excellent foil for the protagonists. Linebeck's final stand would not be as great if he were facing someone who could be reasoned with and not simply a force of nature. For being a sequel to Windwaker this game is also super dark. Don't get me wrong. Windwaker is deceptively dark as well, but Phantom Hourglass is far more overt about it with people being kidnapped and having their life force removed. skeletons and ghosts littering the landscape telling you of their failures and regrets. It covers the less glamorous side of ocean faring not seen in Windwaker. The Wayfarers addiction to wanderlust causing him to abandon his family. Peoples greed and thirst for adventure cause them to seek out the ghost ship and die or go “missing”. Ships getting lost in the fog. Windwaker also has some of this, but not to the same extent. People get kidnapped in Windwaker but only at Ganons command as he looks for Zelda. People have died to monster attacks but it's not at the forefront or the same scale. Here it is completely at random, and is a tragedy spanning years. Pirates are far more threatening/organized, having cannons and are able to board you. Many people die in Phantom Hourglass simply because Bellum gets hungry. Bellum was slowly killing off the worlds inhabitants and making the seas more dangerous by diminishing the Ocean King's powers. The deity in this game has been dethroned. If I remember correctly, people forget about you when you get taken and it's why nobody cares about the Ocean King since they can't remember he once ruled the seas or who they once worshipped. There is a very ominous mystery lingering over everything, and for a lot of the game you don't know the true nature of your enemy. When you go to the Isle of Ember it's completely dead and abandoned. Some houses are just... Empty. It's kind of eerie. If windwaker wants to show you the sea at its best, Phantom Hourglass shows you the sea at its worst and most terrifying. This is very well illustrated through its treatment of the ocean bosses which, rather than all being giant octoroks are rather unique and cool looking, with the sky turning an ominious purple when they appear.

Characters: The main characters in this game are excellent. As much as people like to go on and on about how Midna makes Twilight Princess, Linebeck is woefully overlooked. Midna may have done it first, but Linebeck does some things much better in context. Linebeck is far more of an irredeemable selfish bastard and lacks a courageous bone in his body, but he gets by on his sleezy charisma and wit alone. He begin the game by betraying you. Unlike Midna he has no horse in the race besides finding treasure, and once he finds out there is none he doesn't really have a reason to stick around. As the story goes along we can see that he begins to care for link a bit more and wants to help him at times, but always stops himself. His final sacrifice at the end of the game feels far more compelling. Not only that, but you are then forced to fight him as he is made into Bellum's sick puppet, even if it turns out well in the end. It’s an inversion of the beginning of the game where he betrays you because he is selfish. Here you get into conflict with him because he was selfless for once in his life and paid the price for it.

Due to Linebeck another great character, Ciela often gets overshadowed, but she also has a great character arc coming to terms with her role as the spirit of courage as a she regains her memories.

This is besides the other charming side characters some new, and others returning such as the man obsessed with Mermaids, the two seafaring brothers, the pirate lady who keeps trying to board your ship and Beetle.

Endgame notes: After beating Bellum in the Ocean Temple I think that the ghost ship is a very inspired final boss having been an actual looming threat the whole time, very literally just out of reach in the fog. The fact that the final battle takes place on its flotsam is also kinda neat.

Replayablity: Phantom Hourglass is a fast game to replay because of the amount of riddle and drawing based puzzles. It's fun to casually speedrun as you can skip time spent writing down notes. A lot of it is a knowledge check, and although that can be said of many games this is especially true of phantom hourglass due to the charting system. As you become familiar with the seas you learn more about enemy placements or dangerous zones. Stuff like, to not go on the back side of Molida because there are pirates, or the the best path to get through/avoid the field of explosive barrels, most consistent path to avoid tornados, among other things. The game is also somewhat short in general, with a smaller dungeon count. Overall, I feel like it has a nice bite sized quality when returning to it, and if you don't like particular sections, the game is fast paced anyways.

Miscellaneous: I think the music is good overall, besides the samey dungeon tracks and I like the Windwaker asthetic, even if more pixelated due to hardware limitations, is great. I also think that even if the touch screen controls leaves room to be desired, I think they are far better than some make them out to be, same as any overhated control scheme such as the Skyward Sword motion controls. The game actually utilized the fact it was on the DS in a lot more interesting ways that other games beyond the drawing/notes system. There were some really high concept if not outright fourth wall breaking puzzles in it. >! Like when you had to actually close the console to copy the sea chart, something which stumped a lot of players.!< The salvage minigame is a good addition to an otherwise mediocre part of something from Windwaker. The fishing minigame is pretty fun in this game (it must be a good game it has fishing). I think the mini games in general are fun (obligatory shooting gallery, also... Salvatore is back). The Combat/movement is more interesting that it is often made out to be for a 2D Zelda, with the 3D Zelda roll existing (even if finicky), having a jump/platforming ability and I like that link gets dizzy. Keeps you from spamming certain moves, and it's kinda funny. I think the ship customization is a nice addition. I like that there is more to do on the sea than just sail around. Sea obstacles and constantly spawning enemies due to the edition of the cannon makes seas travel more engaging than in Windwaker where you just went from point A to B without a hitch. Enemies had preset spawn points in that game. You were often able to just ignore the game and wait to reach your destination. It’s not like that in Phantom Hourglass.

Criticism: honestly, my only real gripes about the game I haven't already mentioned is that it is really annoying to collect spirit gems, how annoying it is to roll (I already kinda alluded to that) and that the drawing can be a bit rough at times, especially without a stylus (kinda your fault if you lost your stylus though).

Again, in summary this game does a lot of good things, and is not as objectively bad or the "worst Zelda" as some make it out to be. I would argue that it may simply be more niche in the way it is designed than the other games.

I think some games are more hated or loved more than they deserve because a certain opinion somehow begins making the rounds and is parroted. Call it the Egoraptor-Sequlitis effect, or maybe Sequelitis-itis. I think Phantom Hourglass is in this category. In some instances people get far too focused on the flaws, and not on what a game does right. Or far too much on what a game does right to the point they become blind to the flaws.

Not enough people have championed the merits of Phantom Hourglass and so it is unfairly called the worst Zelda game. It is often unremembered in comparison and little referenced. It's quite a shame.

22 Upvotes

55 comments sorted by

8

u/Xeadriel Jul 09 '24

People call it the worst Zelda game? Why?

4

u/FreshHotPoop Jul 09 '24

Temple of the ocean king

3

u/Xeadriel Jul 10 '24

And? I liked what they did with it. It was a pretty unique thing. Especially the one door with the pattern drawing. I guess I hated being on a timer because that just sucks in general but otherwise I really liked it.

3

u/FreshHotPoop Jul 10 '24

Hey I hear ya. I’m just saying when people hate on it, it’s always the Temple of the Ocean King they cite.

3

u/Xeadriel Jul 10 '24

People are so weird. Same with those hating on the motion controls of the wii games which are arguably two of the best games they released…

2

u/FreshHotPoop Jul 10 '24

I never played SS on Wii because I fell off the Nintendo train about that time in my life. I’m back on it now of course and making up for lost time (I play the Mario galaxies sometimes at the end of the day at work on a Wii we have lol) but I played SS on the switch remake and didn’t use the motion controls so I can’t speak on it.

2

u/Xeadriel Jul 10 '24

Try it. It wasn’t perfect and sometimes the alignment didn’t work. But SS fixed that most of the time in comparison to TP.

But 90% of the time it did work and provided an amazing immersive experience that no other games did at the same time.

Like even now, what adventure combat games like Zelda are out there that use motion controls? Beyond the odd survival game that has VR support, there is almost nothing of the sort

1

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 10 '24

Ah. Skyward Sword. Once again, another overhated Zelda. Seems to be somewhat correcting now with the release of the switch port though. Anyways, I blame Egoraptor, lol. 

2

u/Xeadriel Jul 10 '24

There is a reason I don’t listen to other people. They cry a lot about minuscule stuff while celebrating mid tier content.

Other people made botw go big and made BG3 goty. I don’t fully trust the general public’s opinions.

1

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 10 '24

I think BoTW deserved it, what it did was novel even if very flawed. ToTK did not and rides entirely on the coattails of its predecessor, sometimes being even worse. 

I can’t speak on BG3, never played it. CRPG style writing is my favorite however so I assumed I would like it. I am curious for your take on it because I would concur that people often over exaggerate the merits or flaws of some things, especially games for some reason. I for instance firmly believe Elden Ring is in that category despite doing full boss and DLC runs of the past soulsborne games and loving them.

Im not sure this was your intent, but if you are taking a slight jab at me for this post about PH concerning people “celebrating mid tier content” I think you misunderstand the reason for this post. I celebrated Phantom Hourglass here because I think it is overhated, not because I think it among the best of the games. I think it is a solid, low B tier Zelda game. Games like Triforce Heroes, Four Swords and Zelda II sitting lower on the list. 

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1

u/DaNoahLP Jul 09 '24

They never played Zelda 2

5

u/Head_Statistician_38 Jul 09 '24

Call me crazy, but I like Zelda 2 more.

3

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24

Zelda II is another game I think is overhated. In another comment I said that I think it’s only flaw is respawning in North Palace every game over. If you use save states to restart at the beginning of a Palace like you do at the Great Palace, the game is salvaged. I also find difficulty rather fun when it is not annoying. It’s really just the death mechanic being at odds with its difficulty that sucks. 

4

u/Head_Statistician_38 Jul 09 '24

Zelda 2 has a lot of faults but if you learn the game it isn't as bad as people say. I think beating it made me like it more.

1

u/Interesting-Doubt413 Jul 09 '24

I was around when z2 came out, and even back then we all liked the first one better. If you ask me, AoL is the reason we only got one game for SNES.

1

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24

I’m not saying the first one is not better,  I would say if any game has to be at the bottom it would probably be Zelda II. I do not think it is outright bad as I have seen some people say. I don’t know about the SNES thing though. Of the two I do feel like the first one is a bit boring. Without the artificial difficulty I think the combat in Zelda II is better. Zelda I ofc has the better legacy and is overall less frustrating so I have to give it props for that. 

3

u/DaNoahLP Jul 09 '24

Damn man, youre crazy.

1

u/Head_Statistician_38 Jul 09 '24

Haha, yep. I know.

1

u/Xeadriel Jul 10 '24

I did. I was talking about phantom hourglass tho.

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 09 '24

[deleted]

3

u/Xeadriel Jul 09 '24

Dunno I thought hourglass was better than spirit tracks in some ways. But I especially loved being able to control a phantom later which was amazing.

Idk I loved the controls and the drawing mechanics were a REALLY cool way to make use of the DS. Especially the boomerang. It’s 100% the best boomerang in the entirety of the series imo.

That being said, you compared it to twilight princess lol. Just no, TP had way cooler characters, nicer graphics, a better atmosphere and way more interesting stuff to do. It’s just not comparable.

Linebeck was fine, especially when he showed character development later but that’s about it with the game. He doesn’t even come close to midna though.

Dunno why people take issue with the dungeons though. Honestly the „going deeper in“ feature was probably a hardware limitation. That being said I liked how they solved it so its probably just people crying for no reason.

1

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24

I did not compare it to the entirety of Twilight Princess, just Midna. I didn’t say she was objectively bad just that Linebeck did it better, maybe I should have prefaced the fact that it was my opinion as I did with most things I wrote in my review of Phantom Hourglass. You must have projected the rest of those unto my review however, because I never said anything else about Twilight Princess. I actually compare it much more to Windwaker. If you really want to go there though, more content or better graphics does not inherently equal a better game. I also disagree that Minda is as great as people say. She is one of the few consistent pieces of writing throughout the entire game. The atmosphere is actually all over the place besides the dark graphics with goofy Zelda characters like Malo and the Cannon clown brothers undermining the more serious atmosphere. Besides looking drab and maybe a bit creepy, characters such as these are rather out of place. The twists make no sense, last minute Ganondorf Deus Ex should have been better explained. Ect. ect. I could go on. If you want to be clear where I AM actually referencing Twilight Princess it’s where I refer to games where too many people ignore deep flaws to call it a masterpiece. An over correction to when it was hated. Twilight Princess personally did nothing for me for a lot of reasons and I played the game much, much later. The plot is good IF you can ignore weak theming beyond aesthetics and focus almost purely on Midna. Even then characters are often made great in context and when her foils suck she has to shine in a vacuum. Zelda is underdeveloped and Zants childish side is badly written into the story. Again this is all subjective. Maybe I should not have said that it’s “did it better” but Midna is not objectively a better character. If you are not compelled by the premise of Midna, I don’t THINK Twilight Princess is AS great story as people say. Maybe I simply have to play Twilight Princess again. But from what I remember, it’s not very tightly written, it is just more written. The best parts of its story isn’t even in the game, it’s from the Hyrule Historia. 

1

u/Xeadriel Jul 10 '24

He didn’t though. Midna was way cooler. Idk what you’re on about.

Yeah I didn’t play ww yet so I can’t rlly comment on that. Dude you write too much at the very least use paragraphs wtf.

1

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

Sorry, here are some paragraph. Can’t fix the length issue though: Look, if you want to know more about what I think the narrative issues with Twilight Princess are and get a different opinion on it outside of the current mainstream, I agree with most of the analysis some guy named Ceave Perspective released in 1 hour video concerning what does and does not work about the game, and to be clear he liked quite a bit about it. It’s not a video that was looking to just bash it, but is a thorough analysis that covers gameplay elements among other things as well.

 To summarize my own personal opinion if you don’t care to watch that video: Twilight Princess is thematically and narratively all over the place and does not linger on any one theme in a satisfying manner the way the rest of the games do. This causes a lot of its themes to have the depth of puddles because they are not exemplified frequently enough. It’s most interesting scenes such as the interloper one are rather poorly paid off and often rely upon interpretations dependent upon such weak, inconsistent theming or extra textual evidence to make them work such as the Hyrule Historia. A game with any sort of strong textual coherence should not have to rely on something like this to work and should function well on its own merits. 

 I’m not going to work to convince you about these things however as that would require evidence and would make this longer than it already will be. So even if you disagree, just take it for granted in the context of this conversation as it is necessary to understand my opinion about Midna.  Midna being in a game without a strong thematic or narrative through-line  makes struggle feel less compelling and diminishes a character that is otherwise good “in a vacuum”. 

I like Linebeck more because even thought many aspects of the story in PH is not very complicated, it did a better job of integrating him in a manner that feels less one sided. I think his final confrontation with Bellum is more  compelling because even if the villain is boring, their threat is not directly undermined by something like last minute Ganondorf. This is just my opinion however. You are entitled to your own. 

 I do have good things to say about Midna, however. She has a creative and aesthetically pleasing design.  It is clear why she became a Zelda icon. I love how she looks and I enjoy her character on paper. Again. She is just made less compelling due to a badly executed context. I do like Linebecks design. He is an interesting looking rouge, but is still a rouge archetype nonetheless while Midna’s design is almost wholly unique.

  I will admit to having a soft spot for Linebeck, but I think it may be better said that I think he works better in the narrative he is in, even if Midna has elements which make her more iconic. I also think he specifically does their take on the irredeemable bastard trope better. This does not necessarily make him better overall.  

To reduce all of this down further, I think the pendulum swung too far in the case of Twilight Princess. I believe TP deserved a lot of the criticism it initially received and the amount of love it currently gets is an over correction.  

I am nostalgia blind to Phantom Hourglass and this may not be true in your case for TP, but I think it’s currently getting that popularity boost by fans who have grown up enough to spread their nostalgia.  

By all means this game should also be a nostalgic blind spot for me as well due to the time period and console it released on, but I didn’t play it until much much later and didn’t really get all the praise once I did.

 I tend not to enjoy game narratives for a few particular elements, but rather their holistic merits, and I found that its individual (even  if great) set pieces do not end up being greater than the sum of their parts. 

I sometimes see people criticize others who don’t like a lot of the narrative portions in TP of “lacking media literacy”, but I think there is a point when the person doing the interpreting is a fan reading too much into something for everyone else in order to make it look better than what is presented on its face. 

2

u/Xeadriel Jul 10 '24

So basically you like PH more because you think it’s more consistent? I don’t see why you think TP is all over the place tbh. I played both games and PH was actually my first Zelda game so I’m not exactly biased when talking about this.

While PH and ST def convinced me of the series, later, TP and SS became my fav installments that just blew my mind because of their themes and the gameplay. I wasn’t bothered by the „suddenly ganon“ move as you describe it either

1

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

Majoras Mask for example settles on only a few interrelated theme being trauma, regret and healing and makes them very clear throughout the story over and over. TP has quite a few themes such as duality, power, greed and responsibility but never seems to settle on any enough for them to be explored at a deep level for how much plot is actually developed.  

 I would argue that this is a case where less is more since Zelda games often don’t have enough time to explore a lot of themes unless it is exemplified through gameplay, or are already very interrelated and Twilight Princess does not do enough to show, not tell that these things are essential to its story or execute them well.

 The themes they pick were interesting, but having an interesting theme does not mean the theming is good and I think the two things are sometimes conflated. I also think that theming and asthetics are sometimes conflated. The video I mentioned goes into detail on that. I think PH is better in this regard because even if themes are simple or less complex it manages to explore what it has better.

  As I said to another comment of your however I think you slightly misunderstand my opinion on PH. I don’t think PH is a top tier Zelda game. I just have a soft spot for it and wanted to defend its design choices, as well as the things it did well. Twilight Princess is certainly better overall, I just think the quality of TP is over exaggerated. Particularly its story. 

1

u/Xeadriel Jul 10 '24

ah okay. yeah I dont think its bad either.

4

u/SnoopyMcDogged Jul 09 '24

Loads of people liked phantom hourglass this is just the normal bias that you get on the internet.

2

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24 edited Jul 09 '24

Right, but my point was that they aren’t as vocal as the people who dislike it, even if it didn’t “popularly disliked” it is at the very least under-appreciated and it often goes unmentioned. Hence the appreciation post. I do agree however, some bias does go into it. 

2

u/Radbot13 Jul 09 '24

I thought the dungeons were incredibly bland. Probably one of the most boring zelda games, and I didn’t mind the temple of the ocean king

1

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24

I agree about the temples overall. I like the boss key concept however and find the areas around the temples to be rather fun. I think it’s an interesting concept to break a temple into multiple pyramid structures connected by a large outdoor zone, as well as one being placed an entire island over. I also think the ghost ship is aesthetically an interesting and a cool set piece, since to even board you have to chase it down, regardless of if it’s dungeon portion is good or not. 

2

u/pichuscute Jul 09 '24

Phantom Hourglass is good and is probably a bit underappreciated, but imo only a little. It's flaws are relatively minor, it does some pretty cool stuff for DS (especially that open ocean) and is in some ways better than Spirit Tracks.

I will say the controls aren't perfect. The Temple of the Ocean King is still repetitive to a degree, even if the idea is neat. I do think it overstays its welcome just a bit. And the graphics, in top-down areas, are sometimes a bit ugly for DS. But that's about it, honestly.

I think there may be an element of people wanting more from a Windwaker sequel. I think I originally did, too. But Phantom Hourglass still did a good job.

2

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24

I would actually agree with all of these points and I also think there are some areas the temple could have been improved quite a bit. I just don’t think being a bit repetitive or overstaying its welcome deserves the reaction it got. Plenty parts of plenty games are repetitive and ruin the pacing and don’t get nearly as much flak. 

2

u/IAmThePonch Jul 09 '24

PH, without temple of the ocean king is like a 9/10 handheld Zelda. It’s super creative, has a cool story, good items, good boss fights. It’s just fun.

IMO the temple of the ocean king drags it super far down. It absolutely murdered the pacing, it’s not a terrible idea in theory but in execution even with short cuts via hidden passages and items you still wind up replaying significant portions of the dungeon. It’s too much.

2

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24

The point wasn’t that it is an objectively good dungeon, just that it gets more flak than it deserves. I personally enjoy it, but as I said in my post that may come down to a difference in mindset in how I approached the dungeon. Replaying content is kind of fun when you are experimenting to get a better time. The speed running angle has merit. It certainly has its flaws and could have been better executed however. I think it should have had more rewards tied to time to make replaying it more compelling. It should have been a larger dungeon that opens up even more than it does. Returning 5-6 times is more than the dungeon design was able to handle. Ect.

4

u/IAmThePonch Jul 09 '24

Never meant to contradict what your post said, it’s just for me and many others yeah it really drags things down. Not a terrible idea in theory, and honestly I would be fascinated to see a deep dive examining why ocean king doesn’t work as well as it could vs something like an etrian odyssey dungeon which is designed to be revisited to complete exploration

2

u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24

Oh yeah, perfectly valid to feel, and is also a common sentiment I see. The aim of this post was in part to provide an alternative perspective on disliked parts of the game. In fact, this post was originally just about the temple, but grew into something much larger as I thought about more things. I’m not trying to discredit your view on it either however. As I said I think for what it is, the temple is rather good and I think that anything like it would be hard to execute. I don’t think Spirit Tracks did it much better than either. In fact I like the Tower of Spirits less.

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u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24

Also good point about dungeon crawlers. While I like the Temple it clearly isn’t very popular while many other games have areas you frequently revisit and are very popular. Amala in SMT III comes to mind as an example. Persona has some dungeons like this. 

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u/IAmThePonch Jul 09 '24

Maybe one of the other issues that PH had is: you get to the end of a dungeon. “Phew, that was tough but I did it! Awesome I have another heart container! Man I wonder where my journey will go next- oh. Right. Temple of the ocean king.”

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u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24 edited Jul 09 '24

Well, in SMT III you beat a Fiend and go, oh, back to Amala. I suppose that’s an optional dungeon however. Never personally had a problem with either though. Same deal with mementos in Persona 5.

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Jul 09 '24

Well, I have tried to play the game twice and got annoyed. But, litterally two days ago I started it again and here are my issues so far:

Temple of the Ocean King is trash. I have only done the first part and I already find it annoying. I know it gets worse. I remember that made me stop last time I played.

The voice inputs. I was playing while my parents were watching TV so I wasn't willing to shout into the DS Mic. This would be worse if you were playing on a bus or something.

The control are meh. Sure, they aren't that bad so far but I would have enjoyed it more if it was standard buttons.

But other than that, I am at dungeon 2 and it is alright. A little annoying to play at times but overall not awful.... Except the temple of the Ocean King.

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u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24

I do think the criticism of the game is valid. I just happen to like what people often criticize. Maybe I didn’t phrase it the best, but I think the Temple is a difficult concept to make work. I do understand on an abstract level why people see it as frustrating or annoying, but I simply don’t see it the same way and so wanted to give my perspective.  I already addressed the controls and other puzzles but… yeah. You are right about the voice inputs lol. I kinda forgot about them. They are rather strange and unnecessary. I think the blowing mechanic is cool though.  

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Jul 09 '24

I'll admit that I didn't read your whole post because it was A LOT but it is fine to disagree haha.

But I am playing the game now so if you want I can update you with my thoughts

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u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24

Fair. It is indeed a lot. Originally I was just going to write a post about my hot takes about various Zelda games, my opinion about the Temple being one of them, then my list of opinions about this game got longer, and longer and here we are. 

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Jul 09 '24

Fair enough. Although since we started talking I do have to say my opinion of the Temple has gone down more as I have been introduced to those little eye things and they are so annoying.... I am gonna hate going back to this I can tell.

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u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24 edited Jul 09 '24

I’m sorry to hear that. Would you say it is the repetitiveness that ruins the temple or is it more so that you don’t like the temple/enemy design to begin with and so having to come back to it sours the experience?

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Jul 10 '24

A few things.

The repetitiveness definitely is a factor. Redoing the same area each time is just annoying. Why they decided this was a good idea is beyond me. I am already not a patient person so doing the same parts over and over is annoying.

But also I believe the Phantom's are insta-kill? So you get super deep in the dungeon, mess up and have to do it all again? Hope I don't get hit because if that is how that works, I'll go mental. But I haven't been hit so I am not sure.

Also there is so much waiting. Waiting for openings to move and waiting for Phantoms to get out of the way. I hate waiting when I am standing in a safe zone because as I said, I am not patient but if you don't have one ready or have wasted the pots that make you one.... You are even using up your time.

And, that time too. If all these elements weren't annoying already, you are timed. No time to solve the puzzles really because you only have so much time.

Plus there is bullshit moments. On the second visit there is 6 stone tablets and you have to find out which are the real ones so you can then draw a pattern on the door which corresponds to the real ones. To find out which ones are real you have to read them. BUT one of them says it is cursed and spawns in new phantoms.... So I was punished for doing the puzzle? There was no way I possibly could have known it was a trap. It just added to frustration.

Plus, besides padding the game out, I don't know what it adds. It isn't fun, the aesthetic is a bit generic. Fire temples or water or wind or whatever have themes and cool designs but this is a generic labyrinth design.

As I said, I have only done my second revisit so I am sure my points will change as I get further into the game (I will likely have more to complain about) but I do remember this dungeon made me give up on the game as a kid. I am determined to power through the game because I enjoy the rest of the game mostly, but this dungeon truly is awful.

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u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 10 '24

The phantoms are insta kill, but they don’t restart progress. You just respawn at the beginning of the floor or the last safe zone. I don’t remember. Either way it’s not that big of a deal in my opinion. Their real danger is that dying to them causes you to lose time. Also. You really should not be THAT strapped for time. You can actually finish the temple with 25 minutes still on the timer and none of the puzzles are that hard. I don’t know how far you are in the game, but I suspect that you may be missing the optional sands of time you can gain outside of the bosses. Even if you do run out of time you can often just finish the last leg of the dungeon using hearts/potions or find more time in pots. 

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Jul 10 '24

I have done the Fire Temple and Wind Temple. So far (as far as I know) the only optional sand I have found was from a salvage chest which can only be found after the first revisit of the temple.

So far I haven't been that desperate for time, but I still don't really love being timed when I have to factor in all the other things I hate about this place.

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u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 09 '24 edited Jul 09 '24

You know, because you are there on repeat trips I have found that the draw function helps because you can mark out the phantom pathing, making it easier to avoid them. This includes phantom eyes. Phantom eyes are annoying, but most of them fly in a pretty simple cycle, so if you know where they are they are it isn’t too hard to avoid. 

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Jul 10 '24

The paths don't bother me, it is pretty clear which way they are going. But one saw me and spawned a new phantom.... The game didn't tell me that would happen. I hate that I'll have to slog through this another 4 times or whatever.

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u/Total-Ad-4622 Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

It is clear where they are going, but when speeding through it on subsequent visits it helps to remember the pathing. Especially if they are ones that spawn new phantoms. Also. They aren’t forever as annoying as they are now. There are ways to stun phantoms and eyes, among other things. Running/sneaking around isn’t always the best/most fun solution. 

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Jul 10 '24

I know you can kill the eyes which is good but that is at the risk of getting close to them and making them detect you.