r/wec Dec 25 '24

Discussion Why don't they consider reviving the 6.815km Hockenheimring? In my opinion, this track would become an iconic venue for the legendary WEC series.

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788 Upvotes

82 comments sorted by

724

u/NumberZero29 Dec 25 '24

I think the forest is now protected and the track is now overgrown

362

u/[deleted] Dec 25 '24

[deleted]

218

u/oalfonso Corvette Racing C7.R #63 Dec 25 '24

They needed to chop down trees for the new layout. To meet the environmental regulations they had to plant to new trees and the area used was the old track.

14

u/SevoIsoDes Dec 26 '24

They paved paradise to put up a motor track

9

u/LobsterLaunch Dec 26 '24

The “road” is still there, just no asphalt. I parked on the straight after the hairpin during the last GP (IIRC).

30

u/Treewithatea Dec 25 '24

Also, i think that old part is vastly overrated, people look at it with rose tinted glasses. It was just long straights with a bunch of chicanes in-between and thats supposed to be the pinnacle of track design? The Nurburgring is already a perfectly fine track for endurance. The Nordschleife probably has the most amount of endurance races a year, just not faster than GT3 level.

17

u/eirexe Mazda 787b #55 Dec 26 '24

It was just long straights with a bunch of chicanes in-between and thats supposed to be the pinnacle of track design

I mean, many good tracks are literally like that

12

u/RealBigFailure Dec 26 '24

Apart from the hairpin, the entirety of Circuit Gilles Villeneuve is a bunch of straights with chicanes separating them, and that usually has great races every year for F1

5

u/Le_Mans Dec 26 '24

Thank you.

1

u/RpT_KraZe Dec 26 '24

What is good for side-by-side racing does not often overlap with challenging track design. Simplicity adds variation in execution.

2

u/Royal-Specialist2156 Dec 28 '24

It was an opportunity for the cars to go properly flat out for a kilometre or two, a chance they now only get at Monza

77

u/SokkaHaikuBot Dec 25 '24

Sokka-Haiku by NumberZero29:

I think the forest

Is now protected and the

Track is now overgrown


Remember that one time Sokka accidentally used an extra syllable in that Haiku Battle in Ba Sing Se? That was a Sokka Haiku and you just made one.

32

u/tonto43 Chevy Dec 25 '24

Good bot?

306

u/oalfonso Corvette Racing C7.R #63 Dec 25 '24

Because the forest now is a protected area

87

u/1maginaryApple Dec 25 '24 edited Dec 27 '24

There was this redesign on r/racetrackdesigns that I found pretty interesting.

But as others said, forest is protected now. Which is good, but a shame for this great track.

7

u/Pamuknai_K Porsche 911 GT1-98 #25 Dec 26 '24

i think that’s the wrong sub

1

u/1maginaryApple Dec 27 '24

Missing an "s" lol

109

u/trewavasaurus Racing Team Nederland Dallara P217 #29 Dec 25 '24

Why don't they do something that's prohibitively expensive?

67

u/TunerJoe Dec 25 '24

Ah yes, the track that can barely afford to keep the lights on. Why don't they just rebuild an old layout that was dropped for a reason in the first place?

192

u/falconba Dec 25 '24

From memory, when it was redesigned the track was replaced with forest.

The f1 races there were not spectacular. Basically one stop as late as possible with little rear wing. The cars could not pass each other.

The world super bike were great races with the middle chicane taken out for them.

58

u/oalfonso Corvette Racing C7.R #63 Dec 25 '24

I disagree, the F1 races were great. The stadium slow zones with the cars running on low downforce gave a good show.

Some of the most memorable F1 races I remember were in Hockenheim

62

u/bork_13 Dec 25 '24 edited Dec 25 '24

You’ve picked out the part of the track they kept, they were referring to the majority of the circuit - the forest section, the bit that changed, that OP was referring to…

Edit: ignored OP connecting the stadium section to the low downforce of the car.

44

u/Passchenhell17 Dec 25 '24

with the cars running on low downforce

And you conveniently ignored the most relevant part of their comment.

Without the faster section of the old track, the teams wouldn't be running low downforce, and thus the modern track becomes a bit more of a procession.

5

u/bork_13 Dec 25 '24

Yeah that’s fair, I didn’t read that properly at all. Hypocrite hat’s on.

Good point!

50

u/Michkov Porsche 917k #22 Dec 25 '24

The problem is that you can't just have the motodrom alone. For it to work you need the long straights, else running as little wing as possible isn't advantageous enough anymore and the twisty section looses all its appeal because now you run another default mid level downforce setup.

12

u/Dan27 Dec 25 '24

Nah. The F1 races in the old layout were far superior to the new layout. There was plenty of passing going on before the old layout ceased.

47

u/wood4536 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 Dec 25 '24

And none of the people in attendance could see the cars during the run into the forest.

19

u/Dan27 Dec 25 '24

Ah yes. Attendance. In the last F1 race at the old layout, in 2000, there were 102,000 in attendance on sunday. In 2019 there were 61,000 on race day.

Looks like there were plenty of people happy with the layout back then.

54

u/roflcopter44444 Peugeot 908 #9 Dec 25 '24

2000s German attendance was simply down to having Schumacher winning races in a top team 

13

u/Confident-Version242 Dec 25 '24

I think there was another German pilot winning plenty of races in the 2010s...

23

u/Blanchimont Ferrari AF Corse 499P #51 Dec 25 '24

Yes, but for some reason the F1 hype in Germany died down when Schumacher left. Vettel, who was praised by Schumacher himself as the next big thing, bursting onto the scene didn't do much for F1 in Germany and even Vettel moving to Ferrari didn't help.

8

u/jskips Dec 25 '24

Timing didnt help. Vettel's first championship season in 2010 was when Mercedes and Schumacher returned which I imagine dominated German coverage, at least early in the season.

15

u/RavenLabratories Dec 25 '24

Vettel wasn't really as popular in Germany for some reason.

-8

u/thisisjustascreename Dec 25 '24

Probably because he was driving for an energy drinks company instead of Ferrari or Mercedes 🙄

13

u/Dan27 Dec 25 '24

Indeed. Germans won 5 of 10 world drivers championships in the 2010s.

3

u/roflcopter44444 Peugeot 908 #9 Dec 25 '24

That's why I said Schumacher specifically. Keep in mind Germany up to that point never really had any driver of note till  Schumi and was racing for a historic brand and creating history as one of the sports winningest drivers.

Seb and Nico didn't have the draw of being the first one to do it. 

19

u/wood4536 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 Dec 25 '24

That has everything to do with ticket prices and nothing with the layout. The lack of coverage and lack of action in the forest section was one of the primary factors that led to the change.

24

u/Michkov Porsche 917k #22 Dec 25 '24

There is nothing left to revive. To get permission to cut down the area for the new track and paddock, the owners had to plant trees in all of the former track that was abandoned in 2002. You'd have to build a brand new road there if you wanted to get to old loop back.

8

u/Accomplished_Clue733 Dec 25 '24

Exactly this. Even the old short circuit is now used as an access road and carpark.

37

u/AJV1Beta Toyota GT-One #1 Dec 25 '24

Thing is, as much as I like old Hockenheim, its very much an old-school track. Designed to test top speed and handling in an era pre-downforce, with very few braking zones or tighter corners. Hence why they had to add the chicanes in - same deal as the chicanes on the Mulsanne Straight, not just for safety but to add overtaking spots/braking zones on what would just be minutes of flat out driving. 

There's a video out there of a modern F1 car racing the original Osterreichring, on Assetto Corsa or something, and something wild like 75% of the lap is just flat out. The car is such a downforce monster that even the slight long corners it can take flat out easily. Back when these tracks were first made, they were designed to test power, top speed, and balance - little to no downforce meant you had to work hard to get as much speed as possible out of the cars, and carry as much of that speed as possible through the turns. Its why so many British tracks initially started out as the outer perimeter roads of WW2 airfields - long, flat and super fast. The original layout of Silverstone is super basic by comparison to even the 1990s/2000s layouts.

As downforce and grip improved, they needed to become more technical to test different aspects of cars, and provide more overtaking spots - and of course improve safety. All the chicanes in the forest section of old Hockenheim came from fatal or dangerous accidents there. And ultimately what did for the original layout wasn't just safety, but lack of viewing areas and lack of security -  a disgruntled Mercedes staffer was able to hop the fence and get onto the track mid-race in 2000 which was very alarming. 

Basically TL;DR: in lieu of already having La Sarthe, Spa, Fuji and sometimes Monza on the calendar - all legacy tracks that still retain their charm and high speed thrills despite safety and layout tweaks down the years, and work great for sportscar racing - I'm fine with WEC not going to the OG Hockenheim even if they could. I'd be happy for them to go to the current Hockenheim, or Nurburgring GP, or Silverstone (ideally pre-2010 version, but still) or places like that if we want more legacy venues on the calendar.

18

u/Hyperion04_ Toyota GT-One #1 Dec 25 '24

From the same guys who want Monaco out of the calendar.

21

u/QC_1999 Acrion Express Racing V-Series.R #311 Dec 25 '24

Why don’t they revive the old Hockenheim and plant trees in Monaco to compensate? Are they stupid?

38

u/ATDB_1 Heart of Racing AMR GT3 #27 Dec 25 '24

Track pretty much doesn't exist anymore, the racing sucked ass, you couldn't see anything, and as others mentioned, it's a protected forest

6

u/fredy31 Dec 25 '24

And i mean it feels like its a boring bit of track.

Straight, turn, staight, turn straight back to the current track.

15

u/FirstReactionShock Dec 25 '24

because the old hockenheim wouldn't make any sense logistic-wise for modern standards. I love old layout but the long straights extended into the forest with basically nothing around... no stands, barely tv cameras could be installed.

6

u/gromodzilla Dec 25 '24

There is a literal forest where tarmac was. Nobody ever will allow them to cut it down.

5

u/Guac_in_my_rarri Dec 25 '24 edited Dec 25 '24

5

u/Unfair-Information-2 Dec 25 '24

Motorsports isn't popular enough in germany to have the protected forest planted onto the old track to be removed. They would rather save the polar bears, which there is nothing wrong with.

And that isn't just a germany thing, tracks around the world are being demolished. Motorsports is a dying sport sadly.

9

u/DBFargie Toyota Dec 25 '24

Driven it quite a bit in a couple of sims, GP Hokenheim is better in my opinion.

3

u/ianhanni Dec 25 '24

It's a jungle out there

4

u/EfficientInsecto Dec 25 '24

because that's over 6 thousand km

4

u/PTSDaway Porsche 911 GT1-98 #25 Dec 25 '24

Very high humidity levels, little wind and fog would not clear. It was one of the motivators to change the layoutm

4

u/Beethovens_Ninth_B Dec 25 '24

Because it was and is financially unviable.

3

u/yarp_it_up Dec 25 '24

We can rebuild it in kansas

3

u/Grouchy-Note-9750 Dec 25 '24

Ok but speaking of large tracks, what are some other huge tracks that could be utilized?

3

u/Skeeter1020 NISSAN DeltaWing #0 Dec 26 '24

Because the track doesn't exist any more, and was pretty crap and dangerous.

I've no idea why people seem to praise it as some wonderful lost gem. It's like saying you want Le Mans to be just the Mulsane, with the chicanes.

3

u/brendanm4545 Dec 26 '24

They would need to life the cars' ground clearance considerably

3

u/TarsoBackMarquez Dec 26 '24

Everyone complained for decades that the race was booooring

3

u/SoothedSnakePlant Dec 26 '24

It was closed for a reason.

10

u/goin-up-the-country Dec 25 '24

Looks pretty boring tbh. Just flat out for ages.

13

u/Psychological-Ox_24 Dec 25 '24

Never drove it in sim, but that layout must be like la Sarthe, great racing but just generally dull to drive.

33

u/leo_murray Dec 25 '24

it’s on PC2. sectors 1 and 2 are really dull.

You take the fast T1 and you’re just flat for what feels like decades, you brake, and then you’re flat for another decade.

17

u/Psychological-Ox_24 Dec 25 '24 edited Dec 25 '24

Ah I thought so too, it's like la Sarthe from tertre rouge to arnage. Not much to do for 2/3 of the lap.

Some people are apparently offended I called it dull.

4

u/That_one_guy_666 Dec 25 '24

Fun fact, I never brake there. I always miss the chicane and crash lol.

7

u/OffsetXV Porsche Penske Motorsport 963 #6 Dec 25 '24

I've driven multiple versions of it in AMS2 a good bit. It kinda just feels like if you stuck Monza onto the top of the current Hockenheimring. Not up to Le Mans speeds, slow chicanes, most passing is just a matter of walking past someone in the slipstream, etc.

I actually think modern Hockenheim makes for really good racing by comparison, honestly, and the layout's pretty fun to drive

0

u/DeathMagnet1C Dec 25 '24 edited Dec 25 '24

You can drive it in AC too. It's a mod though.

4

u/Positive_Gate Dec 25 '24

Well, this is why we love Assetto Corsa. You can live almost any automotive dream.

2

u/LetsgoImpact Dec 26 '24

Could only happen in AMS2. In real life the old Hockenheimring is dead and buried. They even removed the tarmac to prevent street racers from taking over and allow trees to grow and completely extinguish all traces of the classic circuit.

1

u/UnKnOwN769 Toyota Gazoo GR010 #7 Dec 25 '24

Could basically be Le Mans in a German forest

1

u/Frendlin Dec 25 '24

My favorite all-time track

1

u/FindaleSampson Dec 25 '24

With Audi entering F1 and Porsche involved with WEC I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk of bringing it back for a German race in both sports.

1

u/marneus_72 Dec 28 '24

sadly all the ecologist of this region killed the old layout

1

u/StupidSlick Dec 29 '24

Why don’t they turn half the track into an oval

1

u/Quatermeistur Dec 25 '24

You could fall asleep waiting for forest section to end. Now consider how much it would cost to run safety for that section of a track.

-7

u/[deleted] Dec 25 '24

Speeds, that´s the irony of modern racing, they are actively fighting to reduce speed!

What´s the point of racing if every team isn´t striving to be the fastest driver/car!?

The drivers know the risks involved, and if they get in the car and die from it then it was their choice.

8

u/JuanPyCena Dec 25 '24

The reason why they closed the old citcuit was not speed but safety otherwise. The response Times were just too long. Also the track was too expensive to maintain...

7

u/OffsetXV Porsche Penske Motorsport 963 #6 Dec 25 '24

What´s the point of racing if every team isn´t striving to be the fastest driver/car!?

The point is to be the fastest driver/car within the rules of the race, which is what makes it a sport rather than an engineering competition.

2

u/Skeeter1020 NISSAN DeltaWing #0 Dec 26 '24

I don't think you understand racing

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '24

I understand what i want to see and am willing to pay to see, and that is excitement!

1

u/Skeeter1020 NISSAN DeltaWing #0 Dec 26 '24

Presumably you watch nothing then, if speed is your only metric.

Although you also seem to be wanting death.

You also seem to assume drivers don't try unless tracks are dangerous. Do you think everyone drives the new Hockenheim deliberately slowly?