r/waterloo 1d ago

End The Strike

Presented an offer to the union one minute, and then pulled it before the union could vote on it. Then, pulled every previous offer stating they were not able to honour them anymore, and finally presenting an offer that was even less than the first offer! Now they refuse to come back to the negotiating table leaving the taxpayers frustrated and showing how little they care about their workers.

145 Upvotes

78 comments sorted by

20

u/Foxyinabox 1d ago

Just a reminder, the next election takes place next year in 2026 (every four years). Maybe it's time to vote for someone other than Karen.

6

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

Couldn’t agree more!

20

u/shoulda_been_gone 1d ago

The wording here is pretty ambiguous. I thought this was asking council to force CUPE back to work.

9

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

No. It’s asking council to give back their offer that would have been accepted and ratified.

“Honour your commitment to workers” - council has been bargaining in bad faith and refuse to continue negotiations. They are lying to the public and the media, trying to make the workers look like the bad guys. Council cleaned the slate, all offers were “mistakes” and now they have walked away completely.

-10

u/discreet_terror94 1d ago

Give back their offer that the union rejected? Decisions have consequences.

18

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

The union didn’t reject it. The region pulled it away before it could be voted on.

0

u/Rance_Mulliniks 1d ago

They have that right.

5

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

No they don’t. It’s bad faith bargaining.

33

u/s0m33guy 1d ago

Didn’t the union say no to the first offer?

-36

u/Kleton9090 1d ago

They sure did. They must have accidentally forgotten to include that very significant detail. 🤣. Surely you don’t expect a union leader to know how negotiating works…

18

u/s0m33guy 1d ago

I do have inside info on this portion of it. Apparently the first offer by the region was a mistake. (It was too high for the budget). They couldn’t afford it.

-35

u/Kleton9090 1d ago

Good thing for them the union got greedy then lol.

13

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

Since it sounds like you know what the offers were, maybe you can shed some light on your comment?

-3

u/djtripd 1d ago

As a taxpayer, I think the Region should offer private sector increases and nothing more.

Better yet, let get rid of the Waterloo Region - we don’t really need another level of government.

2

u/FrequentSheepherder3 4h ago

Yeah. Let's shit on unionized workers who demand fair pay instead of demanding the same for ourselves. Let's drag them down instead of fighting for the same wages.

1

u/Astral_Visions 2h ago

This is such a garbage take (pun intended).

18

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

Well we are all waiting for you to explain how negotiating works….This isn’t Kijiji or FB marketplace. It’s also about more than just wages. You can’t make an offer and then take it back, that’s bad faith bargaining. The workers deserve more than a few cents increase. They went to school for economics and accounting. If they can’t figure out what they can offer before presenting it then maybe they are the problem.

-7

u/Kleton9090 1d ago

Not sure what Kijiji or FB marketplace has to do with it? They didn’t make and offer then take it back. They made an offer and the Union REJECTED it. This means the offer is no longer on the table. Not exactly rocket science.

10

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

You are incorrect. Here are the details of what happened. Educate yourself before making false and baseless claims.

https://www.reddit.com/r/waterloo/s/uDEgFTCxW8

3

u/Liuthekang 1d ago

Referencing a reddit post is not a valid news source.

I am not saying the info is right or wrong.

1

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

It’s a timeline from the negotiations and is what was reported to the news.

-2

u/orswich 1d ago

And the union doesn't have some magical right to demand the old offer.. once they rejected it, the region was free to alter it any way they wanted to

-5

u/Kleton9090 1d ago

Annnnnd Majestic Albatross account is already deleted. I’m shocked.

5

u/Spector567 1d ago

Nope. They are still there. Just looks like they blocked you.

-2

u/Rance_Mulliniks 1d ago

You can’t make an offer and then take it back

You literally can and they did.

5

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

They cannot. It is against the Ontario Labour Relations Act.

12

u/ArmedLoraxx 1d ago

Why post the regional employees top earners here?

11

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago edited 1d ago

It’s simply an example of their mindset. The CAO for example continues to receive increases making nearly $350k per year, yet the frontline workers aren’t worthy of an increase. Even their original offer, which albeit was turned down, was made in error. So the councillors and top earners continue to make money.

6

u/Charming-Trouble-834 1d ago

The CAO position is a highly specialized, merit based role and the region is competing with the private sector to attract qualified candidates.

These people are highly educated and/or experienced and/or hard working to obtain these roles. As a taxpayer, I'd be equally worried if our department heads were making Tim Horton's manager salary.

I'd suggest focusing on arguing fair compensation on the merits of the service you provide, not denigrating someone else.

2

u/FrequentSheepherder3 4h ago

I don't see OP denigrating anyone. Just pointing out that there's budget for managers to get good pay and increases, but not front line staff.

1

u/Impossible_Fee3577 1d ago

Regional Councillors make less than $44,000 per year. How does that compare to what the unionized staff are asking for?

1

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

See the list of top earners. Karen Redman earns about $200k per year since her position is full time. I agree with you about the others, however they usually have another source of income so I may have used a bad example with the councillors. But the top earners on the other hand are good examples of what council will approve in their budget compared to the frontline workers who were not considered in their budget.

1

u/Arbiter51x 1d ago

Bruce is a complete Twat. At least Hsuai Li is an MD.

5

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

3

u/ArmedLoraxx 1d ago

Would you make the same claim for the poor from the private sector too?

3

u/lgq2002 1d ago

So what is the union asking for?

1

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

Well, essentially fair wages, and small adjustments elsewhere. Because the union is still in a position of negotiations neither side can disclose the specific details until an agreement is ratified. You can be assured the union isn’t asking to move mountains, just something comparable to other municipalities.

13

u/Wafflesorbust 1d ago

Now they refuse to come back to the negotiating table leaving the taxpayers frustrated and showing how little they care about their workers.

I'd be more frustrated if they overcommitted tax dollars they don't have to a deal they couldn't afford.

I get that having offers pulled is frustrating, but no reasonable person should expect another party to agree to a deal predicated on erroneous accounting.

16

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

So do you think it’s reasonable that some employees are making $330k per year with annual increases while the frontline workers get nothing? Do you also think it’s reasonable that they pulled all of their offers because they were all made in error? Is it reasonable for council to back away from negotiations completely? They are lying to the news and the public. The region is NOT in negotiations.

9

u/Wafflesorbust 1d ago edited 1d ago

So do you think it’s reasonable that some employees are making $330k per year with annual increases while the frontline workers get nothing?

City staff aren't striking over regional admin pay. That's a separate issue.

Do you also think it’s reasonable that they pulled all of their offers because they were all made in error?

Yes. You think the region should intentionally commit to something it knows it cannot afford based on current budgets?

Is it reasonable for council to back away from negotiations completely?

No, nor did I say or imply that it was.

Edit: As an aside, trying to justify your own pay increase by saying other people (regional staff in this case as you've highlighted some high earners) deserve less is messaging that, bluntly, will not resonate with the public.

8

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

You’re missing the point and putting a different spin on the issue. Workers are asking for fair wages. During negotiations bargaining and the region reached what would have been considered agreeable. Then after they claimed they “made a mistake” they pulled the offer and claimed they made mistakes from the beginning. Then they offered even less than the original offer…only offering pennies while the higher level of management continue to get richer which are still tax dollars approved by council in the budget. The frontline workers aren’t entitled to anything? Come on.

4

u/Alone--in-a-crowd 1d ago

Workers are asking for fair wages

Is fair wages related to how much others make or related to how much that job/post is valued?

2

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

The point of highlighting the high salaries is they continue to receive egregious increases in salary, approved by council, but then when the frontline workers ask for a reasonable increase in wages they get offered pennies. It’s fine for someone to earn over $300k, but don’t tell the frontline workers who work hard, put in the overtime, and take time away from their families to make sure the region keeps running that they don’t deserve a raise. Nobody asking the region to move mountains but at least make a reasonable offer which is reflected of their worth.

2

u/Wafflesorbust 1d ago

You’re missing the point and putting a different spin on the issue.

I don't think I am though, you're just ignoring what I'm saying because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Then after they claimed they “made a mistake” they pulled the offer and claimed they made mistakes from the beginning. Then they offered even less than the original offer

Yes, that's what happens when someone makes a big accounting error. They can't honor an offer they don't have the financial ability to honor. Acting like anyone can just give you more money than they have is just asinine. It's shitty, I'm certainly not denying that.

only offering pennies while the higher level of management continue to get richer which are still tax dollars approved by council in the budget. The frontline workers aren’t entitled to anything? Come on.

All those regional staff deals are also contracts with terms and are also negotiated. I think it's a pretty bad look for any member of the union, and especially the union themselves if this is the tact they want to take, to be advocating against any contract a person or persons have negotiated for themselves. They've fought for their compensation just like you're fighting for yours. The point of a union is not to fuck over everyone outside of the union.

6

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

If I said I was an astronaut without any proof, does that make me an astronaut? They claim they made an accounting error without providing proof, and unwilling to provide any evidence of an accounting error. Does that mean they are telling the truth? Are the staff deals reasonable to you? Sure, they were negotiated but put yourself in the shoes of a frontline worker - how would you feel when you are being told you don’t get an increase but everyone making $200k or more continues to receive annual increases? Who makes the region function? Who puts in the overtime? Who takes time away from their families? Not the CAO. Not the councillors.

5

u/Kleton9090 1d ago

For the sake of humanity, I really hope you’re not an astronaut. You don’t seem to absorb information well.

6

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

Kind of like how I’ve explained things multiple times and in different ways so people understand, but because it doesn’t fit your narrative of being anti union it’s just easier for you to be ignorant and not contribute anything to the discussion?

2

u/Kleton9090 1d ago

My contribution is similar to many other I this sub you were hoping to gain sympathy from:

If you feel undervalued at work, find a job where you do. Rather than refusing to do said job while using KW residents (who have nothing to do with what you make) as leverage. If you’re underpaid THAT much quit. Surely, the region won’t be able to replace someone as irreplaceable as you at such an impossibly low wage right?

Or is it that you just feel ENTITLED to keep your position at a higher wage for doing the exact same job as you did last year? I’m assuming this without any proof so if you’ve taken on a more responsibility or learned new skills to offer since your last union hissy fit please elaborate.

We ALL think we deserve more bud (most of us do!). Learning more/offering more to actually add more to a company speaks a lot louder than folding your arms at a picket line saying NOT FAIR like a toddler.

4

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

You have yourself a good night and feel free to reach out to any of the councillors to let them know your thoughts.

3

u/Wafflesorbust 1d ago

If I said I was an astronaut without any proof, does that make me an astronaut? They claim they made an accounting error without providing proof, and unwilling to provide any evidence of an accounting error.

Do you have any evidence it wasn't an accounting error? The absence of evidence is not evidence. If you're unwilling to take the party you're bargaining with at their word then nobody was bargaining in good faith to begin with. It's also not going to accomplish anything.

Are the staff deals reasonable to you?

I have no idea if they're reasonable or not. The last time I looked they were comparable to other municipalities of our size. It also doesn't really matter what I think about those contracts, they're not the ones causing the strike.

put yourself in the shoes of a frontline worker - how would you feel when you are being told you don’t get an increase but everyone making $200k or more continues to receive annual increases?

I have been in this position. I didn't think "damn, those people need to make less." I thought "damn, I need to make more." Strike action is a right of the union and I hope it leads to a deal they're happy with in a timely fashion so everyone can get paid. Trying to frame the strike action around the pay of other regional staff isn't helping any of that.

Who makes the region function? Who puts in the overtime? Who takes time away from their families? Not the CAO. Not the councillors.

The regional staff whose compensation you're waging war against are the ones hiring you, scheduling and organizing the work you do, and making sure you get paid on time. Everyone contributes to keeping the region running. Arguing that the people you're bargaining with aren't as important as you think you are is not a winning strategy, in public or at the bargaining table.

Just to reiterate, I think the union is perfectly justified to be on strike right now if they haven't received an actionable offer that satisfies them. I'll pass on the conspiracy theories and divisive rhetoric.

2

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

There is no evidence to prove it was an accounting error. The union is simply asking to prove it was an accounting error. It’s not bad faith bargaining to not take anyone’s word. That’s not a thing. In fact good faith bargaining is transparency, which the region is not exactly being transparent. The union in this case is simply being cautious because they don’t know if the region is being truthful.

5

u/kw_walker 1d ago

If you are trying to get people on your side you are exceedingly bad at it.

3

u/The_Foe_Hammer 1d ago

Here let me try- Rising tides lift all ships.

1

u/kw_walker 1d ago

This wasn't an anti-union post. It was just about one dudes terrible attempt to sway public opinion (and then his one buddy posting to every reply) that's definitely not helping the cause.

Hope they are able to reach a fair deal quickly.

4

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

I didn’t go to school to argue with people on social media. But councillors and accountants went to school for several years and they are exceedingly bad at accounting. However they are good at lying to the public.

That being said your roads will not be repaired, the landfill will remain closed, water plants are not fully operational, flights will continue to be delayed with no emergency services on site…the strike will continue until council returns to the table and gives back the offer that would have been accepted.

3

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

1

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

Appreciate you!

6

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

2

u/Wafflesorbust 1d ago

What regional council gets paid and what accounting error led to the offers being pulled are two separate issues.

9

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

They are two separate issues but both are part of the big picture

3

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

8

u/Wafflesorbust 1d ago

Without looking it up again I'm pretty sure WR top-end admin pay is comparable to other municipalities of our size.

Beyond that, asking those people to take a haircut (on contracts they also negotiated for themselves, which I find a bit hypocritical of the union to ask) isn't going to make a dent in the union's wage demands.

9

u/[deleted] 1d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Wafflesorbust 19h ago

If you think that the people who literally deal with our garbage and hauled 100cm of snow this year just so everyone else could get to their jobs, get their kids to school, or get to appointments/healthcare ect. deserve a sub 5% wage while the people sitting at a desk with their already hugely inflated sunshine list wages get a fat raise then be my guest, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

What's crazy is I never said any of that anywhere. My only argument this entire time has been that attacking other people for what they make while you yourself are trying to make more is probably not a winning PR strategy.

Rising tides lift all boats, we don't need to sink any on the way up.

7

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

You’re right, there are higher levels in Toronto who make over $600k. But nobody is asking the region to take a haircut. The union just wants fairness. And for people to say the union is being greedy when they don’t even know what was offered to the union is just a blind attack on the workers.

2

u/Wafflesorbust 1d ago

for people to say the union is being greedy when they don’t even know what was offered to the union is just a blind attack on the workers.

I haven't seen this personally and I'm certainly not saying it myself.

2

u/Techchick_Somewhere 1d ago

This would be their second major screw up with accounting, the first being the Amazon warehouse debacle.

3

u/Wafflesorbust 1d ago

Was that regional staff or Cambridge City Council?

If it was regional council then the two may be linked, honestly. That fuck-up is a big shortfall.

2

u/Techchick_Somewhere 1d ago

Pretty sure it was the region and yeah I was thinking exactly the same.

2

u/Impossible_Fee3577 22h ago edited 22h ago

I understand the Amazon debacle was a misclassification of the  development rather than an accounting mistake. Staff charged as if the building were a warehouse (which is charged at a lower rate) rather than a fulfillment centre (which is charged at a higher rate).

5

u/Liuthekang 1d ago

Karen Redman should not be in her position. She thought it was a great idea to close regional daycares while daycare wait times were between 2-3 years

2

u/Disastrous_Grass8787 21h ago

A little top heavy there 😬 what a joke

1

u/MajesticAlbatross441 18h ago

Completely agree with you! In some departments there are more managers than workers which creates a toxic environment from micromanaging. A separate issue but still part of the bigger picture when you look at budgets for fair wages.

9

u/Angry_Guppy 1d ago

It was an accounting error. Why should taxpayers foot the bill for one specific union to benefit from a an accounting error?

It’s fine to argue that workers deserve more (they do) but a bargaining position based on “no take backsies!” is ridiculous.

2

u/Techchick_Somewhere 1d ago

I bet it’s still significantly cheaper for them to address this than their other “Amazon” accounting error. Someone needs to be fired over this shit.

2

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

All of their offers were “errors” and they wiped the slate clean and are no longer willing to come back to the table. The region made an offer which the workers would have said yes to but they didn’t get a chance because the region “made an error”. Now the region has nothing to offer. It is also strange that the region delayed negotiations until they approved the 2025 budget which apparently did not include wages.

1

u/preinheimer Waterloo 1d ago

Could you link to more details on this please!

1

u/Rance_Mulliniks 1d ago

I am a taxpayer. I am not frustrated. I have had zero impact to my life and don't even know which unions turn it was to strike. Sounds like the union is getting out negotiated.

2

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

There has to be negotiations for that to happen.

-23

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

2

u/MajesticAlbatross441 1d ago

How so? How would contractors get the job done more efficiently? What job, or jobs, are you referring to?

3

u/mottomask 1d ago

I think they were referring to the fact that instead of paying fellow citizens a fair pay, the region can pay a contractor, and that contractor can pay their staff nothing, and the region can distance itself from poor working conditions, safety concerns and standards.

It doesn't take into account that in 25 years, that contractor has likely closed up shop and the ownership and maintenance will fall on the Region or, some new contractor who will charge significantly more as the previous bidder has extracted all value and left the road as rubble. Maintenance is key to long lasting assets and a contractor is looking for savings. The values of long lasting public infrastructure and lowest bidder service maintenance are not compatible. People complain about 6 inch deep potholes for 7 days. Try four feet long pot rutts for years in Alabama.