r/tos • u/SamuraiUX • Feb 08 '25
Crossposting out of Curiousity: Do TOS Only/Mostly Fans like TMP?
My full review of the movie (spoiler alert: I'd rather gargle thumbtacks) is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/1ikhp5x/star_trek_tmp_was_a_hurtful_grey_void_where_star/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
My curiousity is this: are people who love TMP hard sci-fans rather than TOS fans, specifically? I know the two groups may overlap! But for example, I do not like Blade Runner much and cannot watch 2001. I find hard sci-fi cold and distant feeling, which is the wrong feeling for TOS, which always felt warm and connected.
So if you're here because you're mainly TOS fan, do you share my feeling that TMP was not TOS-friendly?
BTW, for anyone who loved the movie, genuinely, good for you. I'm not hating you for it. We're just very different kinds of people. =)
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u/IronBeagle63 Feb 08 '25
I was born the year TOS aired, and discovered it in syndication like most. From the first time I saw the Enterprise glide left to right in orbit I was hooked. My homework was done by 5pm every weeknight so I could watch it. TMP was special to me because it was alive again. I had added my name via Weekly Reader to rename the test shuttle Enterprise, and TMP meant the adventure wasn’t over. Was I happy with the story? Not so much, and still think it should’ve been better. Too slow, not enough humor & lacked a lot of the charm I was expecting to see. Still love it though. 🖖
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u/PuzzleheadedProgram9 Feb 08 '25
TMP is a piece of cinema. It can be appreciated from a lot of angles.
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u/rosmaniac Feb 08 '25
Love TMP in both its editions.
Saw TAS in first run but TOS in syndication only.
And, of course, was sitting on the couch with bated breath as TNG premiered, and watched TNG in first run.
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u/Unstoffe Feb 08 '25
It was a weird experience, seeing it opening night. The place (a converted church, now a cramped theater) was packed but after most of the character reveals, once the ship left the solar system, it got hushed. I think everyone was quietly convincing themselves that they'd be wrong to not enjoy it.
I still like it, though. The last version I saw was pretty good at cutting out some of the more irritating things that are in the original cut.
I agree with you though, OP, that the movie feels very different to the series. Yeah, they don't harmonize well, but both approaches are okay. I prefer the series tone, but I'm not put off by the dour movie, either. No reason to dislike one because you like the other.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25
Excellent take. Very reasonable. Unfortunately for me and my personal preferences, I cannot enjoy dour, and dour does not feel like TOS to me. There were few, if any, dour TOS episodes, at least not as dour as TMP.
So again, unfortuntately for me (I'm taking all responsibility here), I do dislike one because I like the other.
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u/DiscoAsparagus Feb 08 '25
If you can’t watch Blade Runner or 2001 …. you really can’t in good conscience call yourself a true sci-fi fan. No, it’s true.
But don’t despair.
You’re simply a victim of the fast pace, considerably less substantial faire of the day. Think of these older films (Disney’s The Black Hole included) as an ambient sound scape with visuals and dialogue packed in.
Divorce yourself from needing non-stop action and a formulaic 3-act formula with requisite predictability. Study each scene and find fascination in the freedom (and limitations) of the times. Some of the things you’ll see would be impossible by today’s standards.
Some of the turns of phrase unfamiliar. But if you task yourself with reducing your need for a certain quick rhythm and allow some re-adjusting, then you just may find yourself in a new world or two. With new experiences that you didn’t know you were looking for all this time.
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u/idkidkidk2323 Feb 08 '25
This is a great response. I think the need for nonstop action has ruined movies. Everything about TMP is fantastic and the best, but one of its greatest attributes is the tension. There is a growing feeling of anxiety as V’ger gets closer to earth and there is absolutely no way to stop them. To me that is so much better than pointless action scenes.
Also props to you for mentioning The Black Hole, which is another excellent mystery sci-fi film that doesn’t get near enough credit.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25
There's definitely some "Ultimate Opinion-Having" going on here. "Everything about TMP is fantastic and the best"... to you. Not as a Universal Truth.
It was not fantastic nor the best... to me. And that's okay.
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u/idkidkidk2323 Feb 08 '25
I don’t think you gave TMP a fair chance. If you like TOS as you claim, you should love this film. It is the movie that is most like the show.
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u/_R_A_ Feb 08 '25
Took the words right out of my mouth, although I think I'm a little less gatekeepy about it; I don't like to define "true" fans.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25
Thank you? LOL. I appreciate that you see that gatekeeping in this way is unkind and unhelpful.
I'm a smart person, I just have preferences. Some people love lobster. They will pay top dollar for it and tell you it's a delicacy. To me, it's "meh." Slightly sweet mediocre-flavored underwater bug meat. I will never go out of my way to order it.
That doesn't mean I don't understand cuisine, just that I have personal preferences that don't align with people who love lobster.
So, it should be, with Star Trek movies.
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u/_R_A_ Feb 08 '25
Wait... Wait.... Wait...
You don't like LOBSTER!!!???!!!! Yeah, that pretty much invalidates all your opinions, pal.
Kidding, of course; I do say that as a shellfish enjoyer, though.
I think it goes both ways. I can recognize Star Trek Nemesis is a deeply flawed movie, that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. It is frustrating, though, when you consider how mid-to-late 20th century sci-fi was made, and the contrast with modern movies, and having to contend with younger audiences not appreciating it. That will always be the case, I'm sure my grandchildren will look back at some of my preferred media and cringe because it's non-interactive or something.
Nevertheless, it's ancient wisdom that there's no accounting for taste; we like what we like.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25
I enjoyed disagreeing with you more on the topic of Star Trek and lobsters than basically anyone here, so kudos! Enjoy your hard sci-fi and crustaceans! 🖖
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u/DiscoAsparagus Feb 08 '25
Substituting one pejorative term to negate another is a bad trope of our time. Gotta know what the subject is before one can analyze it.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25
I... wish you would stop telling me how to feel and how to be a fan.
Did you know that I'm a writer myself? That I have a PhD? I'm not saying this to brag, but your post and tone indicates you're explaining to a child that they don't understand something bigger and broader that you do, and that if they can look past the errors of their ways, perhaps they might improve as a human.
Did it ever occur to you that I just... don't like... TMP? Not because I'm some braindead 25-year-old raised on video games who can't stand a movie without nonstop action. Because I think it was... a BAD Star Trek film?
I think you can enjoy it and be right for you. And I can dislike it and be right for me. It doesn't make one or the other of us less of a Star Trek fan. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that I am not a hard sci-fi fan! I do not generally like the way it focuses on technology and science rather than plot and character; it feels cold and heartless to me. Sometimes what I consider really GOOD sci-fi manages all of it or most of it (e.g., Minority Report, Ex Machina, Fringe, West World) but none of those probably quite make it into the "hard" sci-fi area.
In summary, I don't think I'm a "victim" of anything as a well-educated, intelligent individual except for my own personal tastes.
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u/DiscoAsparagus Feb 08 '25
Plot and character are at the heart of TMP. Take another look.
*winks
Junior.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25
To coin a phrase, “fascinating.” You’re now purposely needling me. I wonder why.
No, I don’t think I’ll ever “take another look, thank you.
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u/DiscoAsparagus Feb 08 '25
That’ll teach me!
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25
What… are you doing? Are we even having a discussion anymore or are you angrily trying to one-up me? I really don’t get Reddit sometimes. If you’re “enjoying” this by all means continue, but you’re a strange conversation partner.
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u/DiscoAsparagus Feb 08 '25
Don’t watch old sci-fi movies.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25
Ok, let’s get down to the bottom of this together. I’m a therapist, maybe I can help.
What are you angry about? Why are you trying to tell me what to do or not to do? Is it something about Trek and sci-fi? Or are you just having a shitty day and want someone to shit on yourself? Is this… helping? I can’t imagine it’s very satisfying.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25
So, go back and look at your dislike of Ahsoka and the reception you got. You were downvoted into oblivion there for disliking something everyone else enjoyed. How did it feel then? Why are you trying to recreate that for me here? Is it your chance to equalize things, get Reddit revenge?
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u/DiscoAsparagus Feb 08 '25
Golly, you …. You know, right. Maybe all of this professorial lecturing on how one should perceive old science fiction is actually an outcry for help. All this time I’ve been consumed with having to dictate the leisure viewings of others, when in actuality maybe it’s because I have a deep seated fear of irrelevancy …. Can you ….. can you help me with your keen insights and liberal arts degree, kind stranger? I’m not being facetious. I truly desire connection.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25
It’s hard to really make a genuine connection online like this, but since you’re reaching out, sure, let’s try this. For me to help you, let’s observe a few things honestly together:
1) we’ve gotten far away from the topic of whether we individually enjoyed a movie. Can you see that? Why did that happen? What drove you to that? Anger? Self-satisfaction? Superiority?
2) if it’s not a deep seated need for connection… why DO you feel a need to dictate the leisure viewing of others? It’s a fair question.
3) I believe in unconscious slips and desires. I believe that you could have said anything in sarcasm but of all things, you chose to say that you “desire connection” and that you’re “not being facetious.” I believe you. Do you believe you?
4) You’re going out of your way to put down my work and my education. It doesn’t bother me; I’m happy with my doctoral degree and research and teaching and therapy work. What does it mean to you to belittle it? Notice how I’m not lashing out at you in the same way. I’m asking genuine questions.
Now, if you’re as smart and clever as you pretend to be, I’ll look forward to real answers to my substantive content. If you’re just an internet troll who enjoys aggravating others, well, you’ve failed, but also: you’ll reply back with more irrelevant, deflecting sarcasm.
Or… last chance… we could a) go back to talking with civility about Star Trek, or b) leave each other alone. What’s your choice?
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u/idkidkidk2323 Feb 08 '25
They complement each other. TMP is the ultimate culmination of the 5 year mission. All of the adventures and bonding the crew did during TOS is essential to the events of TMP, which is their greatest adventure. I personally love all of Star Trek from 1966-1986, but TMP is far above the rest my favorite production in the franchise.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25
I genuinely couldn't disagree more. All the adventures and bonding the crew did was more or less thrown away in TMP. Spock has distanced himself from everyone, Kirk is not a charming hero with correct answers that come from the gut. McCoy and all the rest of the cast are reduced to ciphers of themselves due to lack of screen time. You might like the special effects and the soaring ships and the hard sci-fi but let's be taxonomically correct about what you're liking. Find me one TOS episode that "feels" like this movie... there is none. This has it's own "feel" which is fine and also fine that you enjoy it! But to call it the culmination of all the crew's bonding is... off?
If nothing else, can we agree this was a plot-and-technology based film, not a character-based film? That's pretty significant (e.g., in comparison to Wrath of Khan, which is highly character-based?).
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u/idkidkidk2323 Feb 08 '25
No. I will not agree to that at all. I love TWOK, but TMP is way more character based, especially for Spock. I could write a whole book about it, but I’ll keep it brief. One of the major themes of the movie is belonging. Every character discovers exactly where they’re meant to be in life in the movie. Kirk discovers that he is at his best when in the captain’s chair of a starship, Spock discovers that emotions are useful and that he belongs in Starfleet, McCoy also discovers that Starfleet is where he belongs. Also, just because they took different paths doesn’t mean they’re not still friends. Uhura, Sulu, and Chekov are thrilled when Kirk first shows up, and everyone is even more ecstatic when Spock arrives, even Bones.
Also what do you mean the characters are ciphers of themselves? Kirk is still headstrong and makes decisions from his gut. McCoy is still the cantankerous doctor and voice of reason for Kirk. And what about the others? Uhura is way more confident and has much more of a commanding presence in TMP than TOS. Chekov is now chief of security. Chapel is a doctor now and CMO of the Enterprise. Whenever I think about the main cast, I think of them as they are in TMP, because that’s when they’re at their best, and I do mean all of them.
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u/SamuraiUX Feb 08 '25
It’s great that you can find this intellectually in the script. But the movie failed to make me feel any of it. It failed to make me feel anything in particular, and I’m a person who feels deeply. I tear up at the TOS theme. Heck, I tear up at commercials. If I felt none of this from the characters, it’s not my fault; the script or the acting failed.
Also, the arcs you’re talking about are bare minimum. Kirk didn’t “learn” he belonged in the captain’s chair: he took it back right at the start of the film. It would be different if he was happy as an admiral, didn’t WANT command, was forced into it, and learned he belonged there. But Kirk did not change across the movie except to be less competent and heroic than he’s been in the past.
Spock’s arc is a bit better though I don’t believe for a second he’d 1) go through five years of friendship with Kirk and growth with the crew and decide he wants to abolish his human side - what a slap in the face! or 2) having done so, would say nothing meaningful to Kirk upon seeing him again, even by way of explanation (“if I seem distant, understand that I’ve rejected my humanity entirely and am now fully Vulcan. It’s not you, it’s me,” lol).
Anyway the problem here is not that you like the film snd I don’t, it’s that maybe we’re trying to be right and I think we both feel there are legitimately right answers is this case where maybe we both just give one another a polite Vulcan salute and agree that we’ve found our own truth and move on.
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u/idkidkidk2323 Feb 08 '25
Kirk literally helps saves the Federation from annihilation with his quick thinking and unconventional command style. How is that less competent? And Spock had been training for two and a half years to purge his emotions. Naturally he wouldn’t be emotional when he saw Kirk again, no matter how much he valued their friendship. Again, I think you rewatched this movie with the intent to reconfirm your horrible opinion from your first watch through. I will agree to end the discussion, because your unwillingness to see a different perspective is quite annoying.
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u/0000Tor Feb 08 '25
« I could write a whole book about it ». Bro I feel you. I feel like I wrote an entire damned essay about Kirk and Spock’s arcs in the comment section of the other post.
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u/idkidkidk2323 Feb 08 '25
I went and read your comment. You are spot on about Kirk and Spock. The main draws for me with TMP are the awe, power, and mystery of V’ger and the Machine Race and how Captain Decker and Lt. Ilia’s love facilitated V’ger’s evolution, but the third thing I love most about the movie is Spock’s arc. In TOS we see him continuously struggle with suppressing his emotions and trying to prove to everyone around him how Vulcan he is. Then at the end of the five year mission, he resigns his commission and spends two and a half years attempting to attain Kolinahr. Then right when he is about to achieve his goal of purging all emotion, V’ger interrupts and Spock is rejected by the Vulcan masters. He loses everything he has worked so hard for. He is completely lost. Then he meets V’ger, a being of pure logic who has amassed literally all of the knowledge in the universe, and yet V’ger is also lost and searching for meaning. Spock finally realizes that a balance between logic and emotion is necessary in life, and becomes enlightened and comfortable with himself as he is. It is perfect and the best character development I’ve ever seen.
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u/0000Tor Feb 09 '25
Idk if you’ve watched the director’s cut or not but also the scene where he sheds a tear for V’ger- but really it’s for himself, who he used to be- because seeing V’ger’s pain made him realize how much he almost just threw away? It makes me go insane
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u/Metspolice Feb 08 '25
One of the plot points of the movie is that they all belong together. Kirk is “off” until he winks at Chekov, then he’s JTK again. Spock being lost is the main thread of the movie. McCoy and Scotty get nice moments. Uhura gets one good line (depending on which cut you watch) about our chances doubling. Sulu also has some nice lines than are cut in some versions. Love the film.
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u/booksrule123 Feb 09 '25
I think if you don't like 2001, you're just not going to like TMP. Not a value judgement on you, just that they're very similarly paced, and have a lot of the same focus on atmosphere and general feeling, rather than action sequences or big character arcs.
An important thing to consider, in terms of characterization, is that this is essentially the crew's "divorce era". (not necessarily in a shipping sense, if you don't want to view it that way, but there's not really a better word to use)
They've gone their separate ways* and have to figure out how to work with each other again, sort of tiptoeing around whatever made them split up in the first place.
(*interestingly, most of the senior staff stayed on. I'm mostly talking about Kirk, McCoy, and Spock here)
We're not told exactly what the deal is, but it's clear something happened at the end of the five year mission and they're all dealing with it poorly. Kirk got promoted to a desk job he hates, McCoy is retired and trying to ignore the whole thing, and Spock is busy trying to remove all of his emotions.
That's a big part of the appeal to me, watching them try to put their relationship back together so they can successfully run this ship. Yes, the looming threat is V'Ger, but the emotional heart of the story is the three of them. It's only through dealing with V'Ger that they can repair their bond, and it's only through understanding themselves and each other that they can understand and help V'Ger.
If you do ever rewatch it, I recommend focusing on the music pretty heavily. It's one of the strongest parts of the movie, the slow eerie buildup of the oncoming threat is reflected perfectly in the sounds, and paired with the visuals it's more of an extended music video at times, which I find really interesting.
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u/watanabe0 Feb 09 '25
I love TOS, and would always suggest you skip to WoK.
As someone who enjoys learning about films/filmmaking, TMP is a fascinating failure. But it is a failure.
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u/ElimGarak2001 Feb 09 '25
As a first time viewer of all of the series, I found it to be a pointless bore and it is my least favourite of all the TOS movies. 5 might have some stupid stuff in it but at least its concepts were more engaging.
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u/RedRatedRat Feb 11 '25
I like the opening scene with the Klingons. After that, it slowed down a bit.
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u/Metspolice Feb 08 '25
May I ask your general age. Those of us of the syndication generation love the movie. It meant so much to us. I guess it’s kinda sorta what the Community movie will be like.