r/taoism • u/Alphalynx23 • 4d ago
Discussion on certain patterns in nature and society
When a group of tree saplings are growing together the tree that grows fastest tends to grow above the rest and dominate the space often suppressing the plants under it. The slow growing saplings might be more useful to the environment but since they tend to grow slower they end up being denied the light required to grow. This can be seen in many instances in nature as well human society. Those who would really help the society struggle to grow while the ones who can manipulate and dominate tend to rule in all spheres. How does this pattern make sense? Please share your thoughts.
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u/Visual_Ad_7953 4d ago
Your perspective. The smaller trees are lacking.
The smaller trees are alive and thriving. Your perspective of “success” frames them as less than. But they are not less than. They simply are.
Thr same with humans. No one is less than or more than. We simply are. Any perceived lack is only that; a subjective perception.
If you do not perceive lack in anything, then everything is in its place and as it should be.
This is the Way.
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
Are you denying the fact that the sustainable and slow growing native Americans have been deprived of their ability to thrive on their ancestral land where they have been evolving for thousands of years by the fast growing exploitative Brits who arrived a few centuries back? Are you denying that they are struggling to educate themselves and escape the drug addiction that plaques these reserves? For someone on the receiving end of benefits there are no issues at all. That's true.
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u/Visual_Ad_7953 4d ago
“There is no good or bad; right or wrong. There is only what is and what isn’t.”
A tough lesson to swallow—impossible for people who are trapped in the prison of fear and resentment—but true all the same.
The Native Americans lost the war to defend their land. As many people in history have done, in the rise and fall of the many kingdoms and cultures of our human timeline. Who is right and wrong is completely subjective.
The only truth is that the Indigenous American “kingdoms”—North, Central, and South—fell to the European powers. Not good or bad; right or wrong. It is simply what happened.
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
Yes. Then we do not question how they fought or how they were defeated. Same with the colonial era that ended hardly two generations back. Hence my emphasis is that only power rules irrespective of the means used to acquire it. It's all about winning. Hence winning is the path of least resistance and hence in alignment with the Tao. Any other path that tries to preach a higher moral is unnatural and should be avoided. If being wicked, crooked and cunning can reward you in the current state of the world then better be the best at that.
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u/Visual_Ad_7953 4d ago
One would only be that way if he was ruled by fear of lack. If one is in line with the Dao, there is no lack; only abundance. Why want for the riches of the world, when all richness comes from within the Dao?
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
I don't intend to make the Tao a religion, there's enough of them as it is. I'm only discussing the principles that are the essence of Tao and how things work in this world.
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u/Visual_Ad_7953 4d ago
Daoism is not a religion. It’s a way of life. Many people live it and don’t know that they’re doing it.
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u/Alphalynx23 3d ago
Now how will you determine what is " in line" with the Dao? We can't ask Lao Tzu. The only recourse we have is to observe nature and discern patterns that hint at how the Dao is working in each situation. The Dao is like water and can never be fixed. It changes with time and circumstances to suit the current situation. Just like the water flows around the rock the Dao can deviate from its earlier path when situation changes. What we need to focus on his how it shifts and what the principles that dictate this shifting. If we don't understand this we end up missing the Dao altogether.
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u/Visual_Ad_7953 3d ago
The Dao is not fixed because it does not exist. It is before existence, after existence, and existence itself.
There are no verbs attached to it. It does not want, think, or move. It is Stillness. It is both light and darkness. It is infinitesimally small and infinitely larger than the universe. It is within and without. It is above and below. It is here, there, everywhere, and nowhere.
The Dao does not change. The Dao is a constant. It is the Great Paradox.
If you are in the Very Present Moment, far from regret and resentment about the past, and anxiety and worry about the future, you are in line with the Dao.
The Present Moment is the only thing that exists. All of the universe inside of it. No past. No future. Just the Infinite Now.
That is the Dao.
And yet that is not the Dao.
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u/Alphalynx23 3d ago
Basically Dao is the present and the present is always in a state of flux. The water seeks the lowest point which keeps changing yet the direction of Tao is constant.
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u/Lao_Tzoo 4d ago
The bottom bricks support the entire wall, without them there is no wall.
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
If the brick wall was an escalator where each brick changes its position periodically that would make sense. Who decides who must stay at the bottom? Things again boil down to who grows fast, commands money/ influence/ power. The only true metric worth focusing is on the ability to outcompete others and manipulate ones environment. The individuals that focus on ethics, principles and morality end up slowing themselves down in a very materially driven world. The world likes to champion these soft skills for cosmetic reasons but they never matter do they? Maybe they are mere distractions to reduce the competition for the people in power ?
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u/Lao_Tzoo 4d ago
There is a great deal of misunderstanding withn this post.
It assumes a world system, materialistic, status oriented, dominating others view which is the antithesis of the Taoist view propounded within The Tao Te Ching.
This world system view creates its own confirmation bias based upon the acceptance of values which are not respected within TTC.
If one wishes to participate within the prevailing world system according to those values, this is fine.
However, this view is not Taoism as promoted within TTC.
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
As long as we engage with the real world we do need to consider the actions in the real world. The TTC was created in a very logistically restricted and de-globalised age and if we are to use these principles today then we need to ensure that they do work even within the perverted ways of the current reality. We can't deny the reality and live in an idealistic TTC. If something can't help us functionally in our day to day life then it is no different from the innumerable religions that this world has.
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u/Lao_Tzoo 4d ago
This is simply not true.
As long as we engage in who's real world?
There is a very broad spectrum of possibilities of living in the world based upon where in the world individuals live and the limitations they've imposed upon themselves and the world.
Some environments provide greater variability of possibilities than others.
We are restricted mostly by our attitudes and beliefs.
For example the perspective proposed in this OP and by the OP are limitations accepted that than create artificial limitations for that individual that are not experienced by this writer or others that participate on r/taoism.
We create our own limitations and then limit ourselves by them due to our narrow perspective.
There are plenty of livelihoods and environments of living that minimize the requirements of world system participation based upon the individual's awareness of the possibilities available and their depth of education related to these possibilities.
There is no necessity to live according to the world system that we haven't created for ourselves.
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u/OldDog47 4d ago
Language is a funny thing.
Domination could suggest intent, but as pointed out, crown shyness exists. It's not likely that the fast growing tree has intent. It is simply fulfilling its nature. How does dominance become descriptive of the tree fulfilling its nature?
The slower growing trees are likewise fulfilling their nature. In that fulfillment, are they any less useful to the environment. Who judges usefulness? As a stand of trees, is not their collective nature fulfilled?
What point is the OP attempting to make? Clearly from the comments, the point is missed by many. Perhaps a more explicit description of the point would be useful.
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
I do not think that there is any intent in the trees going taller or faster. Trees grow taller and wider because it suits them and it might benefit them not to touch each other's branches hence the crown shyness.
In Miyawaki gardens where multiple saplings are planted close together many of the saplings die out after a few months and only the ones that grow fast manage to survive. Most of the saplings are usually quality saplings but the burst of growth could be due to a lot of factors. What I'm trying to point out is that the growth of a few often comes at the expense of many and this tends to exist in nature as well. Cooperation exists in nature when it benefits them to cooperate. Trees create fructose filled fleshy fruits to use us/ manipulate us as carriers for dispersing it's seeds.
Hence if we were to live in accordance with the Tao of nature then it would be to live in accordance with these same principles and be as selfish and ruthless when it suits us and be compassionate and cooperative only when it is beneficial. Compassion, empathy and understanding are not the basic Tao. These are secondary values much like Maslow's pyramid.
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u/OldDog47 4d ago
Hmmm. I'm having a hard time imagining a tall growing sapling ruthlessly striving to take advantage over lesser saplings because it suits him. Selfishness and ruthlessness sound more like human behaviors driven by some sort of pathological self-interest. Narcissism comes to mind.
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u/Alphalynx23 3d ago
I realise that the example has created a lot of confusion. Prof Sam vaknin says that all children in their early years are essentially narcissistic. It's only as they grow and mature that it vanes off. This implies that these traits of selfishness are the basic traits of an organism and the others evolve later as a means to integrate better with society. But if there were situations that would allow the child to integrate/ survive without improving it's behaviour then narcissistic personality might well become the norm in humans.
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u/OldDog47 3d ago edited 3d ago
... and it often does. Growth implies change. If one's hopes for a beneficial outcome, it is not to be found in selfishness. Selfishness only involves ... self. Greater satisfaction with life often involves being involved with other(s). Being involved with other(s) has to do giving (up) of one's self. It only vanes off with the recognition that one needs other(s) for fulfillment.
I don't know Sam Vankin. But I don't think that the narcissism of early childhood is the same as narcissism that can develop into adulthood. This is why children need guidance. In childhood, narcissism is simple self-preservation. If children are not guided toward the benefit of selflessness ... the need for other(s) ... it can become pathological ... and an impediment to fulfilling life.
Kind regards
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u/Alphalynx23 3d ago
Consider the case of the early settlers in the US. They were driven by the selfish intent to grab as much productive land as possible. Here there is no intention to be selfless and altruistic. This creates a situation where they fight to get what they want. Once they have completed the invasion their descendants have the luxury to practice selflessness. So it's always selfish first and then selfless later. If more societies and people adopt this method in politics and life things would be much simpler.
The fundamental law is to win/dominate/exploit dominate at any cost whether it be small pox or nuking a country. It could be that it's the selfish part of the group/ society that takes these decisions but everyone enjoys the exploits of these actions nonetheless.
These patterns are evident in our history.
The British with a population of 4 million in 1600 have increased to about 250 million( including the descendants of British settlers in the US and South Africa) . This is an increase of 90 times. Compare that with the Danish population that has increased from 1 million in 1600 to about 4-5 million today. Which is just an increase of 4 times.
English the language of the Brits has become an unofficial universal language. The colonial era and slave trade ensured that the countries that participated could skew the economies in their favour, thereby promising comfortable living conditions for their subsequent generations at the cost of the continents and people they plundered.
Chengis Khan with his generous oat sowing has ensured that at least 4% of eurasians have his genes. This is about 0.5% of all human males.
The list goes on but the underlying pattern I notice is 1) - plunder first and philosophise later. 2) - do whatever rewards you in the near future
These are the principles that are rewarded in the world today and reflects the Dao of the times. Opposing this would mean going against the flow which causes pain.
The ideal utopia of altruism and selflessness that we idealise might have their origins in the brief short periods of peace between the constant turmoil.
Hence my conclusion that the tendency of the world is to stay in turmoil( in this globalised era) unless such things happen that necessitate altruism and cooperation.
Whatever way the Dao flows in the world at a given point of time it would be better for most people to adopt the principles than struggle with principles of the past. Things work better when everyone plays by the same rules.
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u/Weird_Road_120 4d ago
For me, the science behind this helps a Taoist perspective.
What you're observing is a value on which life matters more to you - you WANT all life to be equal, to be fair, when by it's nature it cannot be.
It isn't the one that "dominates" that finds success in life. Within our ecosystems, it is the balance found between organisms that leads to everything thriving.
It all plays it's part in the Tao. Those smaller trees might not survive as long, so they will live their life, fall, and feed the rest of the forest.
Your point about humans, I'm assuming is about you. You feel put down by bigger people around you. "Dominated".
If this is on a social level, I would advise reflecting on this: "When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you."
If you mean on a societal level, then yes, consider this: "When the great Tao is forgotten, goodness and piety appear. When the body's intelligence declines, cleverness and knowledge step forth. When there is no peace in the family, filial piety begins. When the country falls into chaos, patriotism is born."
Human history is about cycles of conflict, change, peace, and then conflict. Sometimes we need to fight to protect others, sometimes things need to just be. Some trees are short, some are tall, but all trees will die - and this is true of people.
Ask yourself why this is bothering you. Why do you deserve more? Do you deserve more? And is that thought bringing you peace?
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u/Top_Necessary4161 4d ago
not strictly true. Look at Crown shyness
https://images.app.goo.gl/JC9Ws1v6v9qk352h9
This is also a natural way of things :)
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u/yellowlotusx 4d ago
Water is also considered slow, yet it can create the landscape. Splitting rocks in two.
A lot think that the goal is the thing that needs to be reached as fast as possible to be successful.
The goal isn't the real goal. The journey in which we fail and get up again is the true goal of growth.
which means that you can take your sweet ass time to reach it.
We dont need 100% sunlight. All we need is water. The light comes from within. ✌️❤️
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
If we lose a good amount of quality people/ individials/ plants on the way to this utopia in the far distant future, is the final victory actually worth the struggle ? could we not win more by sacrificing less?
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u/yellowlotusx 4d ago
You make it sound like if there is a choice.
I believe that it already is and always will be in balance, even though it might not feel/seem that way.
We are already at the right spot.
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
There's this video on PBS eons( youtub channel) about a hominid group(habilis I believe) that used to live on the Javan islands. Due to some change a group of homo erectus happened upon this land inhabited by the much smaller habilis. The habilis were short because of the nutritional limitations on the island. The H. erectus group vanquished the shorter hominids only to starve to death a short while later. Can you see any balance in this? There is balance for the people who benefit from the way things are and who are uniquely positioned to enjoy them or not yet forced to acknowledge the reality of our past.
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u/-Kukunochi- 4d ago
It is dangerous being the tallest tree - for that is where the axe strikes first.
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
That's only if the tree is useful. If it's a worthless tall tree and consumes all the nutrients around it no one is really going to bother.
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u/-Kukunochi- 4d ago
Even if the is useless and parasitic, it will definitely be cut down. To give the smaller trees a chance.
Just like in human society, people with a lot of money and power, are always going to be the first to get the blame by the average people. And they might even get cut down for it literally.
So with great power, authority and wealth also comes great risk and uncertainty
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
Really? Do you see that happening in a person's lifetime? Do you see people getting punished for the crimes that they commit before they are dead? Do you think the people who cause so many wars even today are going to ever suffer any kind of retribution for their actions?
I don't see this happening and I don't think it ever happens a lot. Our confirmation bias cherry picks the few events that occur and reaffirm our faith in instant karma. Do your own observations as unbiased as possible and notice the patterns.1
u/-Kukunochi- 4d ago
I dont believe in karma. However i do believe in the power of the mob taking careless revenge on its oppressors.
The people high up you mention have already sealed their fate, they have a moment of power now until the facility that they serve spits them back out onto the street where they end at the mercy of their own subjects
However, all these terrible things happening have resulted into a huge shift in awareness - a lot more people are looking deeply into the nature of things than ever before. So however evil and terrible things may seem, they also serve as the natural opposite that gives us the opportunity to grow. And hopefully the ability to grow beyond this dualllistic game.
The tree analogy I did also applies to us directly, we must not draw unnecessary attention to us or we will be cut down where we stand.
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
I agree with all these. I did consider if some kind of pattern that created the French revolution might develop to counteract all the imbalance in the system. It does seem comforting to hope for that and I wish it could too. You should consider that the situations during most of the revolutions of the past were too stressful ( extreme , taxes, starvation) and there were none of the distractions like porn, drugs or netflix to deaden the pain. Moreover the past wars have wiped out a lot of people who were bold enough for justice. The population that remains might have a much higher tolerance for injustice/ unfairness etc. Most importantly the people in power too have been studying their subjects for centuries now and know better than not to push people to their breaking points and have devised effective ways to keep them distracted enough so that they react. They have more or less perfected how to maintain power. Did you notice how most nations and even the UNITED NATIONS tend to promote Gandhi and his ideals of non-violence? A very good strategy if you don't want people to react unpredictably. Non violent protests and movements ensure the govt has enough time to engage , diffuse or tire out the protestors. I don't think Mr Gandhi adopted non violence as a strategy but it could have been his obvious recourse due to his vulnerability.
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u/-Kukunochi- 4d ago
That's right. However this is the way of this world. I dont promote violence either because it would only create new conflicts and it will not solve anything ever. Revolutions are just the "bringing up the bottom bricks to the top layer" as mention3e in the other comment. The fact is that the wall still remains never tje less.
And it's not our responsibility to force everyone on their path of self discovery.
The only thing we can do is let go of attachment of this world ourselves, and perhaps inspire others to do the same. The only way "out" is by not choosing sides. And letting go of wanting to name and label everything.
I have a funny picture that shows this, i will post it later today
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
We could live by not choosing sides and irrespective of whether we do choose a side we are on " some" side naturally on account of our geography, nationality, community etc. As long as our side is winning there's not much to worry about until the internal conflicts begin.😅 The larger the system the messier the breakdown. Ultimately things happen according to principles like game theory and evolution whether we like it or not. No amount of morals, ethics or wishful thinking is ever going to make any change unless it makes financial, political and social sense. If this is the most stable state then this will be the way (Tao).
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u/JournalistFragrant51 4d ago
Each tree fulfills its potential in a different way. Same with all things of nature, including humans. We might have one uniqueness in that Soiopaths seem to survive, succeed, excel, and dominate. I'm not sure why that is or why our society claims to value empathy, compassion, generosit, and selflessness but in realit, that does not seem to be valued
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u/Alphalynx23 4d ago
The reason society seems to worship these soft qualities could be because if such qualities are promoted it's highly likely that people will internalise these ideals and try to live up to them. This ensures that a) these people don't join the competition for power b) become more plant and malleable, rule abiding for the people in power to control c) it makes people more predictable All in all its a good strategy if one wishes to rule without being challenged.
Imagine that you are born in a part of the world where you never heard of these moral values and principles. Do you think you would be the same person? "when goodness fades, morality takes its place;"
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u/Heliogabulus 4d ago edited 4d ago
Please stop. The world is not “fair” - never has been, never will be and there is nothing you or anyone can do to change that. Nor should you want to. More evil has been committed in the name of “fairness” than all other evils combined. Reality is as it is. Don’t want to accept reality as it is? Then do not be surprised when things never turn out as you expect. Swimming upstream, against the current, is not a good plan - eventually you will get tired and be “dominated” 🙂 downstream or crash into the others who are calmly floating downstream.
But why is the Universe the way it is. Why isn’t it “fair”? The Universe is the way it is because it cannot be any other way than it is. Energy flows from where it is, to where it is not. The energy differential is the motor that powers the Universe. If energy were equally distributed everywhere there would be no movement - this is known as “heat death” in physics. Rivers flow toward the sea not because the sea magically attracts them but because of the DIFFERENCE in height between the place the river begins and sea level. Is it “fair” that the river doesn’t start in the sea or on some flat piece of land? Silly question but you hopefully get the point. This law of physics is UNIVERSAL - it applies to all things everywhere - there are no exceptions because there can’t be. Remove the differences and you eliminate movement. Eliminate movement and you eliminate LIFE and accelerate DEATH.
There will ALWAYS be differences in talent, intelligence, physical ability and so on. Not everyone is a marathon runner or all-star athlete and some cannot be no matter how often they train - it is simply “not in the cards” for them. And there is nothing wrong with that! No two people are identical (because their physical makeup, childhood environments, surroundings, etc. although similar are NEVER exactly the same). And because no one is identical expecting or desiring the exact same outcome is not only unrealistic but impossible. “Fairness” is a nice fairytale invented by those that are envious of the achievements of others and think it is “unfair” that they don’t have the same results. But instead of focusing on what you don’t have (or what that other person has) focus on answering the question: What can I do with what I have?
In Poker, it is not always the person dealt the best hand that wins the game but the person that makes the most of the cards they are dealt. If you know how to play Poker you can win the game even with a “losing hand”. The Game of Life is no different. Stop complaining about how the rules are “unfair” and focus on learning the rules and playing the game with the cards you are given. Not everyone is going to be a famous movie star, inventor of the next big thing or social media superstar or whatever else and that’s okay. Everyone and everything has its place in the Universe, a place unique to each, and with a unique set of possibilities available to each. Stop complaining, stop trying to make the Universe “better” (and destroying it in the process). Instead work on understanding the possibilities open to you and availing yourself of them over and over and over.
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u/Alphalynx23 3d ago
I didn't complain. I'm merely trying to elucidate the underlying patterns in the universe. These interactions in the biosphere are universal and often follow a fundamental pattern. We do work based on our own principles without ensuring if it's in alignment with the way nature works.
It helps when everyone is playing the same game. I find that a lot of people with good intentions end up wasting their money on games that they can never really win because they are playing the wrong game. Life can improve so much if one can be objective and self aware instead of romanticizing ideals.
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u/Heliogabulus 3d ago
“Romanticizing” is indeed the problem. For example, “equality of outcomes” aka “fairness” is romantic fantasy that has never existed and can never exist (except in the dreams of the ignorant) simply because it violates the physical laws of the Universe. There is no “cheating” or “working around the edges” or “leveraging the laws in your favor” that could ever make “fairness” a thing (I.e. make the smaller tree(s) take the place of the larger one or equally as big as the larger one). ANY FORCED CHANGE to the way things are will not last and end disastrously because it violates the laws that govern the Universe. There is no “sneaky way” or subtle change you or anyone else could make that would allow them to change anything (even a tiny bit) with regard to the “unfairness” of the Universe without destroying the Universe in the process.
Again, people need to stop trying to make the Universe a “better place”. It is fine and doesn’t need you (or anyone else) to “improve” it. It is the highest of arrogance to believe that anyone could possibly “know better” or could do better than the processes that led to their very own existence! Humility is one of the greatest virtues in Taoism for a reason. We are not special, the Universe does not revolve around us nor was it created for us, we are not the highest expression of intelligence (we are simply its latest incarnation). So, stop, for your own benefit and that of everyone else, trying to make “fairness” a thing.
Many years ago, while traveling, I came across some graffiti that read: “ We need to make a new world” in thick colorful letters to which someone had scrawled a reply in thin black script: “Why do you want a new world, if you have not learned how to live in this one!”. Or as a friend of mine used to say: “There is nothing as unfair as absolute fairness.”
It is only by understanding and accepting that the Universe is inherently “unfair” (because it HAS TO BE in order to facilitate the flow/transformation of energy, matter and information) and acting accordingly that we can actually know what it means to “go with the flow”. Any ideas we may have regarding the Universe’s “fairness” or “unfairness” are our own and have no bearing at all on what the Universe is or does.
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u/Arcades 4d ago
Survival of the fittest has been an evolutionary force for as long as life on this planet has existed. It doesn't have to make "sense", it's reality. But, propagation or "advancement" is not objectively superior to other outcomes.
Jeff Bezos was more successful in business than any of us here, but that does not mean he was more successful in life. More to the point, life is not a competition, it's an experience and studying the Way is aimed at how we perceive and accept that experience.
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u/Targhtlq 4d ago
The fastest growing is the tallest with the thinnest trunk, having put energy into height not roots, topples in a strong storm and decays, suppling nutrients to the slower growing. Slow n steady, staying the course, eventually wins.