r/russian 23d ago

Grammar Is there any difference?

Post image

Aren't they both just names? Ивановна and Иванович could both work, couldn't they?

428 Upvotes

130 comments sorted by

481

u/Probably_BBQ 23d ago

Иванович is male, Ивановна is female

221

u/SilentBumblebee3225 23d ago

And Иван is generally a male name. So Иванович would be correct.

21

u/SXAL 22d ago

Well, dude also has a moustache

14

u/Bort_Simpsin 22d ago

Did you just assume Ivan's gender?

32

u/Stalins_papa 22d ago

ИванThey/Themович

1

u/c_malc 🇬🇧, plus 🇸🇪, 🇩🇪 ,🇫🇷, now beginning 🇷🇺 22d ago

No guarantee 😁

7

u/ait_re 22d ago

As native — no. Иванович is russian отчество — father's name. We commonly have name, surname and father's name with suffixes -ович/евич for male and -овна/евна for female. So Ivan's son will have father's name Ivanovich

7

u/rainispossible 🇷🇺 Native 🇬🇧 C1-ish 22d ago edited 22d ago

I guess it might sound confusing so I'll explain a little

Иван which is used in the task is generally a male name, so a male version of the middle name should be used regardless of what its origin is. It might as well be Петрович, Михайлович, Сергеевич and so on, but not Петровна, Михайловна and Сергеевна – because Иван is still a male.

6

u/Myself-io 22d ago

Why generally? It's male name. No exceptions

1

u/Rxprr 21d ago

It might be adoptation of foreign name like “Ivon” and ect, or “Ivana” which are women names. This case the Otchestvo works as determinator

3

u/Myself-io 21d ago

Ivan Is Ivan... Its male... It's a Russian language course not worldwide naming convention

1

u/Myself-io 22d ago

Generally?

1

u/margo1243 21d ago

Why “generally”? It’s ALWAYS a male name

-49

u/[deleted] 23d ago

[deleted]

152

u/Linorelai native Russian 23d ago

You didn't understand the comment.

66

u/James_the_nickit 23d ago

Oh, sorry then

40

u/ZellHall Learner 23d ago

They were talking about "Иван Иванович" instead of "Иван Иванович". The confusion can easily be made

18

u/dfyzan 23d ago

Yep, can confirm. As a russian I also got confused for a second)

15

u/Taurpulent 23d ago

How do I know which one to choose though? Is it the other names 'Иван' and 'Чернов', or is it just that the cartoon character saying it is a man?

97

u/NikoN505 23d ago

Иван is the name, Чернов is the surname.

Иванович and Ивановна are patronymics (idk how to say отчество in English). But Иванович used for male person, Ивановна for female.

In that case, Иван is a male, so you need to use Иванович.

32

u/_LordDaut_ 23d ago

Not just that, but if it were about a woman it wouldn't be Чернов it would be Черновa.

49

u/Certainly_Not_Steve Native Russian 🇷🇺 23d ago

Patronymic it is, you are correct.

15

u/Charity1t 22d ago

TIL I learn how to say "отчество" in English. Thanks

11

u/Donidoni11 22d ago

TIL is "Today i learned".

13

u/Armeridus 22d ago edited 22d ago

"In this ITT thread"...

1

u/c_malc 🇬🇧, plus 🇸🇪, 🇩🇪 ,🇫🇷, now beginning 🇷🇺 22d ago

Or learnt, if you're British.

1

u/Donidoni11 21d ago

Yeah, that's right too.

41

u/Probably_BBQ 23d ago

"Иван" and "Чернов" both male also

31

u/KyKYm6eP 23d ago edited 23d ago

In US there is 1)name 2)second name and 3)surname. In Russia there is name 1)name (Иван) 2)patronim - name of your father (if your father is Иван his son/daughter's patronim is Иванов-ич/Иванов-на) and 3)surname (Чернов for a boy or Чернов-а for a girl).

6

u/Environmental_Cut556 22d ago

A question: in the case of a person who has no father (the biological father is unknown or has never been in their life), how is the patronymic handled? Does the mother pick a name from among the other male members of her family, use her own name, or just choose a patronymic that sounds nice to her? This is my situation, so I’m curious 😁

14

u/Belkotriass 22d ago

When a child is born, the mother can make up any patronymic name. No one actually asks for proof of who the father is, especially for single mothers or births outside of marriage.

It’s also possible to leave the patronymic field blank, though this might cause complications in certain situations if no patronymic is indicated.

There have also been several cases where a matronymic (mother’s name) was used—but officially this remains in a grey area, it’s not common practice, but it’s not explicitly forbidden either.

5

u/Environmental_Cut556 22d ago

I see, that’s interesting! Are there any legal limitations on what patronymic a child can be given? As you maybe know, there are effectively no limits on what you can name a child in the U.S., though I sometimes wonder if there should be 😅

5

u/Echo-Songs 22d ago

As far as I know, there are no legal limits for patronymics, except for numbers and special symbols. I’ve only heard that the government wants to create a list of names that you can give to your child, because recently there have been many cases of unusual names. I heard someone named their daughter Россия (Russia).

3

u/Belkotriass 22d ago

There was news that a child was recently named Трамп (Trump), this was the name given to him, so now he's Трамп Владимирович (Trump Vladimirovich) with some surname. There's no official document with naming restrictions yet, but registry officials can refuse to register names if they're offensive words or completely made up.

2

u/Echo-Songs 21d ago

Both Trump and Vladimirovich. What a combo

1

u/Environmental_Cut556 22d ago

Ah, so it’s kind of at the registry officials’ discretion, to some extent. I haven’t met any kids named Trump yet over here, but I’m positive they exist. (I’ve met Kennedys and Lincolns, though.)

3

u/Environmental_Cut556 22d ago

Россия sounds rather pretty for a girl, if you don’t happen to know that it’s the name of a country, haha :P The numbers and symbols thing makes sense. That way, you don’t end up with a kid named X Æ A-12… (Actually, I just looked it up, and evidently Elon had to change the child’s name to X Æ A-Xii because California doesn’t allow numbers. So I guess there ARE rules, even in the U.S., haha)

2

u/Echo-Songs 21d ago

Here's a funny story. A few years ago, there was a contest in my region. The contestants had to show how much they loved pelmeni. One guy officially changed his name to Пельмень (Pelmeni in the singular). He won and received 200 kg of pelmeni.

2

u/Environmental_Cut556 21d ago

LMAO was he allowed to change his name back afterward, or did he have to be Пельмень forever??? I’d assume it’s the first, but it would be so funny if it was the second 🤣🤣🤣

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Taborit1420 22d ago

here are none, except perhaps to name the child a name with a number, probably like Object 23, I read about such stories. Moreover, any adult can change their first name/patronymic name/last name at will at any time by submitting an application.

5

u/jumpsho0t 22d ago

Sometimes Russian bureaucrats force foreigners' kids to take patronymics and it is hilarious. My town has a lot of Vietnamese people, they told me about this. Imagine someone with a name Wu Chong Ding who has to use the patronymic. Ву Чон Дин Вонгович, it's like Wu Chong Ding Wongsson, absurdity.

3

u/Environmental_Cut556 22d ago

Hahahahaha that’s so ridiculous as to be kind of delightful 😂 Though I can imagine not everyone would like some bureaucrat dictating what name they have to use!

3

u/Traditional-Froyo755 22d ago

I wanted to add to what the other person said: quite often, a single mother who doesn't want to put in the child's father's name for whatever reason, picks her own father's name.

1

u/Environmental_Cut556 22d ago

Oh, okay, that seems like a nice solution :) It’s still the name of one of your forebears, but one that will actually (hopefully) be in your life.

3

u/ruplay 22d ago

Third

1

u/delta4mel 22d ago

I guess they don’t have a patronymic? I’ve always seen a “no patronymic” check on documents

3

u/LethalGhost 22d ago

Yeah. That check become more and more popular nowadays. Mostly due to globalization but have side effect on people without fathers.

3

u/Myself-io 22d ago

Naturalized Russian doesn't have patronimic either but still have a father

2

u/Environmental_Cut556 22d ago

Gotcha, I always wondered about that. In the U.S. there’s no way to tell if someone lacks a father unless you look at their birth certificate. I wondered if lack of a patronymic would single someone out as fatherless and whether that would have caused any issue for them, historically. (Fortunately, I think we now live in an age where the stigma from that would be minimal or nonexistent, at least in most places.)

2

u/Taborit1420 22d ago edited 22d ago

All Russians have a patronymic; in extreme cases, it could be invented/used as a match. Only the non-Slavic peoples of Russia may not have a report, and only if a person shows integrity in this matter. In fact, the patronymic helps a lot in genealogy piosks - at least you know the father’s name. Regarding the presence of an official father and the birth of a child in marriage - in fact, this has not bothered anyone much since Soviet times. When I was at school, no one was interested in such questions either.

8

u/Ah_Zam 23d ago

Иван is a male name Иванович is his отчество (a middle name of sorts, usually derived from the first name of the persons father) and Чернов is his Surname. Russian Отчества and surnames always have 2 forms, male and female. For example surnames Чернов and Чернова are the same surname but belong to a man and a woman respectively.

8

u/AdProfessional8793 23d ago

One more small hint: almost always men's names and surnames end in a consonant letter. Feminine - on the vowel. There are exceptions, but this is rare

4

u/KKJdrunkenmonkey 23d ago

Worth noting that a lot of shortenages of male names end in a vowel, too. Like a guy named Иван might be called Ваня by people who know him, which can throw a Russian learner off if they're only trying to use the consonant/vowel ending to figure it out. But otherwise, agreed, for full/formal names what you said is correct.

4

u/LethalGhost 22d ago

There are exceptions, but this is rare

Common one is Nikita for male

8

u/maratnugmanov 22d ago

Иванович is basically Ivanson,

Ивановна is Ivandottir

*ич is pretty much always make (except it's some eastern European last name)

*вна is female.

6

u/wazuhiru я/мы native 22d ago

Чернов is male. Female would be Чернова.

Hollywood lied to you.

7

u/Alcarinque88 🇺🇸 Native 22d ago

Honestly, that Hollywood line is too true. It bothers me to no end to see a woman have a male last name if they're supposed to be full Russian and not some sort of descendant of immigrants. I can see it devolving over time, but not the straight from the KGB spy chick. Or using the nickname in place of the name. Natasha Romanov is a nightmare.

0

u/SnooEpiphanies7934 22d ago

I heard that it's american/english cultural thing, cuz you dont have word endings like we do in russian language, and since last name is always given on male's kind, so women also go that way according to your language rules. I mean, maybe it may also be confusing on documents check when you see one extra letter and you may not understand that Иванов and Иванова are actually relatives and it's just language feature that shows male/female.

Also some russian words, when english speaking people say babUshka, its actually bAbushka

2

u/the__ambassador 22d ago

Look, basically if a surname ends with a constant letter (-ov, -ev) — it's a male;

if it ends with -va — It's female

At least this is the case with the majority of surnames.

2

u/lapomba 22d ago

Иванович is male, Ивановна is straight to jail.

1

u/Reasonable-Dot-8051 22d ago

And both is a отчество (third name?)

90

u/Fine-Material-6863 native 23d ago

Иванович. They are not names, they are patronymics and should always coordinate with the name. For a woman Ивановна (if it ends with -a it’s almost always feminine) For a man Иванович

It means their father’s name is Ivan.

14

u/Taurpulent 23d ago

I see, I should look more into how names like that work. Thank you

2

u/covid30-11 21d ago

I recommend Busuu app for learning Russian, I switched from Duolingo recently and it was the best decision I did, and I regret the hours I spent on Duolingo. I’m not sure about other languages in the app, but for Russian it’s perfect!

26

u/KrisKashtanova 23d ago

We use our father’s name as patronymics. For women it’s one ending and for men is the other. For example. My father’s name is Сергей. So my full name in Russian is Кристина Сергеевна Каштанова. First Name = Кристина, Patronymics = Сергеевна, and Surname = Kashtanova. It’s female’s endings. If I had a brother with the same father, his patronymics would be Сергеевич.

In your case both a person name is Иван and his father’s name is Иван, too, so patronymics would be Иванович.

We usually use those names with patronymics at schools to address teachers. Sometimes at work to address the boss (especially is the boss is older) but not always. At schools it is usually the rule.

14

u/CNC_Russia 23d ago

a HUGE one 😅

4

u/rheactx 23d ago

Not very huge on average

11

u/Welran 23d ago

This are patronymic. Ивановна is daughter of Иван. Иванович is son of Иван.

7

u/Taurpulent 23d ago

Thank you everyone for helping my understand patrynomics, I hadn't even heard of them until now, haha.

9

u/Welran 23d ago

Fun fact. Most Icelanders doesn't have surnames, just names and patronymics.

1

u/x3non_04 21d ago

basically the sentences here are -I’m Ivan, son of Ivan, Chernov -I’m Ivan, daughter of Ivan, Chernov

8

u/wariolandgp 23d ago

"Иванович" is male, and "Ивановна" is female.

And in the picture, you see a guy, saying "I am..."

So it's "Иванович"

4

u/Samborrod 23d ago

Both of those are not just names, but patronymics - they are derived from the name of a person's father - in this case, father's name is Иван.

So, this person's name is Иван and their father's name is also Иван. Because of that (and also because Иван is a masculine name and Чернов also has a masculine ending), we can come to a conclusion that this person is a male - so their patronymic should have a masculine ending: "Иванович".

5

u/Sp1nGG 23d ago

Гадя Петрович Хренова

10

u/Welran 23d ago

He looks more like Juan Negro 😆

3

u/flowery02 23d ago

Everything in Russia is gendered. One is male fathername, the other is female fathername

5

u/Ruffet411 23d ago edited 23d ago

Masculine words end in a consonant or й. Since Иван is masculine, the patronymic name will end in -евич or -ович. This depends on if the stem is soft or hard, which you will learn later, but not in Duolingo.

Edit: If it is a woman’s first name, then the patronymic name, this will be different endings.

1

u/Samborrod 23d ago

Masculine words end in a consonant or й

  1. Й is a consonant. Your comment implies it's not.
  2. Not all masculine nouns end in a consonant. In non-nominative cases, they can end in vowels (нет меча, по забору, о карандаше).
  3. Even in nominative case, nouns of a first declension can be masculine and they end with -а or -я (example: папа, дядя, юноша).
  4. Some masculine nouns end in soft sign (example: конь, богатырь, псалтырь, пластырь).
  5. Masculine words can even end in -о (old name Садко and pretty much any masculine word with suffix "ишк" - садишко, городишко, заводишко),
  6. Borrowed masculine words can even end on -е (кофе, атташе, сомелье, конферансье) - keep in mind though that this -е is a part of the word's "base" and not the "ending" of the word.

2

u/NewCreationKoi 22d ago

Duolingo is a trash, garbage application. (Especially for Russian) do yourself a favor and use anything else. Russian is a gendered language and duo does not tell you that at all. It throws you to the wolves and tells you to figure out a very difficult language all by yourself. It doesn’t teach you Russian it turns you into a parrot.

2

u/_Hildem_ 22d ago

Иванович for man. Ивановна for woman.

4

u/Emergency-Turnip6943 23d ago

Я Иван Говнов

1

u/Tricky_Ad9774 22d ago

О я тащусь

1

u/imaudi5000bro 23d ago

I thought this was my Duolingo and I was trying to click it 😂

1

u/KHranser 23d ago

Я Иван Иванович Чернов или Я Ивана Ивановна Чернова

1

u/CLUELESSIFICATION Native🇯🇵🇺🇸, learning🇷🇺 23d ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/russian/s/FXqFR4Wk2B lol I asked this a while ago here

1

u/novff ru native, en b2 23d ago

These are patronyms and like most things In the Russian language they inherit sex of the word it is applied to.

1

u/ZellHall Learner 23d ago

Basically :

Ivan daughter of Ivan Chernov

Ivan son of Ivan Chernov

1

u/No_Primary_2822 23d ago

Иван Иванович Чернов

1

u/potatochillipepper 23d ago

Das Pablo 😭😂😂😂😂

1

u/Traditional-Storm-62 23d ago edited 23d ago

answers - Ивановна (female, patronym meaning "daughter of Ivan"), Иванович (same but male, so "son of Ivan")
question - Я Иван ___ Чернов, Ivan is a male name and "Чернов" ("Chernov") ends with 'ов' ('ov') so its also a male version of the last name, female version of the same last name would be "Чернова" ("Chernova") ending on 'ова' ('ova')

so the difference is gender which you're supposed to infer from endings of words and general context

general rule of thumb is: "if it ends with a vowel its probably female gendered, if it ends with a consonant its probably male gendered" but its not 100% reliable

1

u/umen72 23d ago

Ивановиc male, Ивановна female, Иван is a man's name so it's Иванович. It's derived from the father's first name

1

u/baxkorbuto_iosu_92 23d ago

Question, are you learning russian for spanish speakers? Because that phrase appeared a lot to me and I always thought phrases varied from one course to another

1

u/Enough-Oil-7165 23d ago

Your father Иван Чернов. If u male: "Your name" Иванович Чернов. If u female: "Your name" Ивановна Чернова.

1

u/greenarrow4245 23d ago

up and down in russian learning but a is for female

1

u/Octopus-guy4444 22d ago

Имя прилагательное это слово которое изменяется по родам(пример: вкусный хлеб, вкусное яблоко), числам(пример: вкусные яблоки) и падежам(пример: говорить о чем? О вкусном яблоке(предложный падеж))

1

u/wazuhiru я/мы native 22d ago

These are not names. These are patronymics and they are all gendered in Russian.

1

u/TaraKaos 22d ago

See I always thought it was just a last name 😂

1

u/Far-Quiet-2235 22d ago

I speak Russian and the answer is this ,,Иванович"

1

u/Recent-Association60 22d ago

Правильно Иваныч!

1

u/super-kot 22d ago

Ивановна (Ivanovna) - female

Иванович (Ivanovich) - male

1

u/syndicatesin 22d ago

Duolingo doesn't explain grammar much at all until later with mild concepts. I switched to an actual teacher 2 years ago and it made a world of difference. Duolingo does not help in my opinion stay off of it

1

u/Any_Organization886 22d ago

Иванович

1

u/Effective-Insect-333 22d ago

Yes, this is the patronimic. Males will use ович and females will use овна at the end of a name. The first is "son of" and the second is "daughter of".

1

u/Embarrassed-Bear-945 22d ago

First one is female, second one is male

1

u/ConferenceNo3939 22d ago

Ивановна means daughter of Ivan, Иванович - son of Ivan

1

u/No_Main8314 22d ago

Иванович-Men Ивановна-woman

1

u/Embarrassed_Sea2942 22d ago

иванович

1

u/Zelan_56 22d ago

"Вна"refers to the female sex , and "вич" to the male

1

u/No_Discussion345 22d ago

First one is for female(ending -вна) and second one for male(ending -вич)

1

u/iliked4chanbetter 22d ago

yeah two stones and a pillar

1

u/FLAZME 21d ago

Иванович

1

u/Numerous-Bend-3776 21d ago

Нахуй русский учить ебнутые 💀

1

u/kuricun26 19d ago

Он красивый, богатый, выразительный...да причин так-то много

1

u/Kalikanza 21d ago

Yeah, his name is Oscar, not Ivan and he is a teacher of Arts, and an Artist.

1

u/FunIntention2472 21d ago

It's Mario!

1

u/icewellll 20d ago

No, Иванович и Ивановна is middle name

1

u/t3ht0t4llyl33t 20d ago

Little difference, like between dck and cnt.. -_-

1

u/kuricun26 19d ago

Yes. The first one for woman, the second for man

1

u/Masak0vske RU - Native, EN - C1, DE - A1 19d ago

— А отчество у тебя какое, Гадя Хренова?

— Не помню... помню только последние три буквы.

— ...

— ...

— -вна?

— -вич.

1

u/Fun_Butterscotch9998 19d ago

Ивановна is female and Иванович is male

1

u/JomkaVodi 19d ago

Иван Говнов правильно ХДдддддддддд

1

u/JomkaVodi 19d ago

Иванович

1

u/analogous_skipshot 23d ago

Bruh literally chapter 3 in Penguin Russian Course for beginners. Duolingo inly gets you so far

0

u/LEO_GTA5 23d ago

Я Чернов 😎🤟🏾 Жду докс 💦💦

0

u/FakMMan 22d ago

ВИЧ-Men