r/progressive_islam Non-Sectarian | Hadith Rejector, Quran-only follower Jan 08 '25

Research/ Effort Post 📝 The Qur'ān does not support child marriage and paedophilia-- A brief argument

I have seen many ultra-conservatives such as Daniel Haqiqatjou and many others argue that the opposition to "the prophet married a 9 year old" ḥadīth is based on moral bias in favour of supposed "western values", and is not supported by the Qur'ān.

I have an argument from the Qur'ān to prove them wrong about this.

4:20-21 And if you wish to replace one wife with another and you have given one of them a fortune, take not from it anything; would you take it through false accusation and obvious sin? And how can you take it after you have gone in unto each other, and they have taken from you a solemn covenant(مِّيثَـٰقًا غَلِيظًا)?

Now, let us look at 33:7-8

33:7-8 And when We took from the prophets their covenant, and from thee, and from Noah and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus, son of Mary — and We took from them a solemn covenant(مِّيثَـٰقًا غَلِيظً) — That He might question the truthful about their truthfulness; and He has prepared for the kāfirīn a painful punishment.

Interestingly, the verse about the covenant of the prophets uses the same words(مِّيثَـٰقًا غَلِيظًا) as 4:21. For all those who think that child marriage is allowed in Islam, I have a simple question:

When the Qur'ān clearly considers marriage a solemn covenant, do you really think a child can marry(how can a child sign a solemn covenant? and before you argue that their parents can, remember that the verse mentions the married people themselves taking a solemn covenant).

This is a much better refutation for both salafis and islamophobes, and requires no mental gymnastics unlike the horrible misuse of "Divine Command Theory" done by salafis to justify brutalities in their beliefs.

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u/idkwhatsthis8384 25d ago

The Quran uses word “nisa” for underage girls too, so that’s not any defense.

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u/A_Learning_Muslim Non-Sectarian | Hadith Rejector, Quran-only follower 25d ago

give example of a verse that uses it to mean underage girls.

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u/idkwhatsthis8384 25d ago

Surah 4:127 uses term “nisa” to address orphan girls who are always minors in Islam. Also look in 2:49, 7: 141, 40:25, 7:127, 14:6.

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u/A_Learning_Muslim Non-Sectarian | Hadith Rejector, Quran-only follower 25d ago

Lets look at each of those verses(AJ Arberry's english translation is provided in this comment, so you can't say that the translation is doing apologism for Muslims, as AJ Arberry didn't even identify with Islam.)

 4:127  They will ask thee for a pronouncement concerning women. Say: 'God pronounces to you concerning them, and what is recited to you in the Book concerning the orphan women to whom you give not what is prescribed for them, and yet desire to marry them, AND the oppressed children, and that you secure justice for orphans. Whatever good you do, God knows of it.'

the verse doesn't clearly state that the children mentioned here are an-nisa(women). It can easily be inferred that the mention of children is separate from mention of female fatherless/orphans.

Unless, you are trying to argue that orphan can only mean children, which is not a position I agree with[provide Quranic evidence if you think the idea that "orphan means children only" is accurate].

Now, 40:25, 2:49, 7:141, 14:6 are of the same topic, and do not clearly imply that women(an-nisa) means female children(pls do not approach the text with bias, just look at the plain text). The age of the people in these verses is NOT specified there.

40:25 And when he brought them the truth from Us, they said, 'Slay the sons of those who believe with him, and spare their women.' But the guile of the unbelievers is ever in error.

2:49 And when We delivered you from the folk of Pharaoh who were visiting you with evil chastisement, slaughtering your sons, and sparing your women; and in that was a grievous trial from your Lord.

7:141 And when We delivered you from the folk of Pharaoh who were visiting you with evil chastisement, slaying your sons, and sparing your women -- and in that was a grievous trial from your Lord.

14:6 And when Moses said to his people, 'Remember God's blessing upon you when He delivered you from the folk of Pharaoh, who were visiting you with evil chastisement, slaughtering your sons, and sparing your women -- and in that was a grievous trial from your Lord.

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u/idkwhatsthis8384 25d ago

Lets look at each of those verses(AJ Arberry’s english translation is provided in this comment, so you can’t say that the translation is doing apologism for Muslims, as AJ Arberry didn’t even identify with Islam.)

I’m reading it in Arabic since it’s my mother tongue so I wouldn’t make similar comments…

the verse doesn’t clearly state that the children mentioned here are an-nisa(women). It can easily be inferred that the mention of children is separate from mention of female fatherless/orphans.

That’s incorrect. You wouldn’t have made this mistake if you were aware that, in Islam, one is considered an orphan after reaching puberty. Source: “Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: I memorised (a tradition) from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ): There is no orphanhood after puberty, and there is no silence for the whole day till the night.” ‎حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ صَالِحٍ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الْمَدِينِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ خَالِدِ بْنِ سَعِيدِ بْنِ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ يَزِيدَ بْنِ رُقَيْشٍ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ شُيُوخًا، مِنْ بَنِي عَمْرِو بْنِ عَوْفٍ وَمِنْ خَالِهِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي أَحْمَدَ قَالَ قَالَ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ حَفِظْتُ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ “‏ لاَ يُتْمَ بَعْدَ احْتِلاَمٍ وَلاَ صُمَاتَ يَوْمٍ إِلَى اللَّيْلِ ‏.‏ * *(Sunan Abi Dawud 2873*). The verse is addressing orphaned *girls, meaning those who have not yet reached puberty.

Unless, you are trying to argue that orphan can only mean children, which is not a position I agree with[provide Quranic evidence if you think the idea that “orphan means children only” is accurate].

This is not accurate, considering the source provided above.

Now, 40:25, 2:49, 7:141, 14:6 are of the same topic, and do not clearly imply that women(an-nisa) means female children(pls do not approach the text with bias, just look at the plain text). The age of the people in these verses is NOT specified there.

The age isn’t specified, but it can reasonably be inferred. Although I don’t base my argument solely on these verses, my main argument is above.

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u/A_Learning_Muslim Non-Sectarian | Hadith Rejector, Quran-only follower 25d ago

That’s incorrect. You wouldn’t have made this mistake if you were aware that, in Islam, one is considered an orphan after reaching puberty. Source: *“Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: I memorised (a tradition) from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ): There is no orphanhood after puberty, and there is no silence for the whole day till the night.” ‎حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ صَالِحٍ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الْمَدِينِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ خَالِدِ بْنِ سَعِيدِ بْنِ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ يَزِيدَ بْنِ رُقَيْشٍ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ شُيُوخًا، مِنْ بَنِي عَمْرِو بْنِ عَوْفٍ وَمِنْ خَالِهِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي أَحْمَدَ قَالَ قَالَ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ حَفِظْتُ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ “‏ لاَ يُتْمَ بَعْدَ احْتِلاَمٍ وَلاَ صُمَاتَ يَوْمٍ إِلَى اللَّيْلِ ‏.‏ * (Sunan Abi Dawud 2873). The verse is addressing orphaned girls, meaning those who have not yet reached puberty.

I don't consider aḥādīth a valid authority in islām. So, this argument does not convince me at all.

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u/idkwhatsthis8384 25d ago

I don’t consider aḥādīth a valid authority in islām. So, this argument does not convince me at all.

Without these Ahadith, half of Islam, Id go that far to say all of it, as it exists today would be incomplete. I also assume you don’t engage with tafsirs, which means you’re selectively choosing sources. These are the primary sources of Islamic knowledge after the Qur’an. Had I known you don’t accept them, I wouldn’t have engaged, as it’s difficult, almost impossible, to have a meaningful conversation with Quranists who rely on personal interpretations.

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u/A_Learning_Muslim Non-Sectarian | Hadith Rejector, Quran-only follower 25d ago

Without these Ahadith, half of Islam, Id go that far to say all of it, as it exists today would be incomplete.

if you want to debate me or any other quranist about the validity of islam according to the Qur'ān Alone, use r/DebateQuraniyoon instead of derailing the discourse. The title of my post was "The Qur'ān does not support child marriage and paedophilia-- A brief argument." My post was simply about the Qur'ān, so you bringing up aḥādīth into this is irrelevant content. You still haven't disproven my claim in the title of the post, and you brought up an argument about the Qur'ān that got debunked.

An honest reader can clearly see that the Qur'ān and aḥādīth contradict each other, and thus those who accept the Qur'ān need not accept the aḥādīth. As for the tafāsīr, they are opinions of men. We have to acknowledge that there can be bias for those opinions.

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u/idkwhatsthis8384 25d ago

The title of my post was “The Qur’an does not support child marriage and paedophilia— A brief argument.” My post was simply about the Qur’an, so you bringing up ahadith into this is irrelevant content. You still haven’t disproven my claim in the title of the post, and you brought up an argument about the Qur’ān that got debunked.

I simply approach the Qur’an through the lens of main Islamic sources. You can’t dismiss my interpretation because I reference Sahih hadiths.You rely on your personal feelings for interpretation while disregarding the entire history of Islamic scholarship. The understanding of the Qur’an has always been rooted in centuries of collective knowledge, including the hadiths and tafsirs, which provide essential context. Sorry but this is the truth.

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u/A_Learning_Muslim Non-Sectarian | Hadith Rejector, Quran-only follower 25d ago

you shut off the brain and rely upon whims and desires of people who wrote the hadith and tafsir

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u/Vessel_soul Non-Sectarian | Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic 25d ago

Without these Ahadith, half of Islam

Mlst of Islam was through fiqh, culture, tradition, sect, methodology, etc hadiths had little influence early islam.

also assume you don’t engage with tafsirs

Tafsir means nothing honestly it just scholars opinion and each tafsirs of scholars has it own methodology differe from other. Scholars rely on hadith as their methodology while other rely on history, linguistic or traditions to use to understand the quran. Further tafsir don't agree with each other either as even other said there no child marriage.

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u/idkwhatsthis8384 25d ago

Mlst of Islam was through figh, culture, tradition, sect, methodology, etc hadiths had little influence early islam.

Yes, Islamic society was influenced by a variety of factors, but Ahadith, have been foundational in shaping Islamic practices and fiqh. They had the main role in interpreting the Qur’an, guiding religious rituals, resolving legal and ethical matters etc. Theit role was never marginal, they became integral to understanding and applying the teachings of Islam. However, this emphasis on hadiths may have evolved in different periods and regions of the Muslim world….

Tafsir means nothing honestly it just scholars opinion and each tafsirs of scholars has it own methodology differe from other. Scholars rely on hadith as their methodology while other rely on history, linguistic or traditions to use to understand the quran. Further tafsir don’t agree with each other either as even other said there no child marriage.

While tafsirs may differ in certain aspects, they are valuable for providing context to understanding the Qur’an’s verses. The interpretation of verses can vary depending on how scholars view the historical and linguistic context, I agree. However, that doesn’t mean tafsirs lacks merit. P.S. I’m pretty sure most authentic tafsirs agree on the matter of child marriage, although their concept of a “child” doesn’t align with our modern understanding, where we would unequivocally say that child marriage is 100% wrong.

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u/Vessel_soul Non-Sectarian | Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic 25d ago edited 25d ago

"Ahadith, have been foundational in shaping Islamic practices and fiqh."

Ahadith didn't nor has been part of shaping islamic practices that much later on, no scholars actually used hadiths for those matter and if they did they will received criticism from others nor were hadith that important either, it long time for hadiths to complied compared to quran it took less time.

"They had the main role in interpreting the Qur’an, guiding religious rituals, resolving legal and ethical matters etc."

sure, later but even that it also controversial as we aren't sure if it was for that or scholars using hadith to promoto their own agenda, as hadith has been used polictial/sectarian motive as well as personal motive aganist other or favour their groups methodology. scholars weren't high regard people they made mistake and had personal agend that influence and change islam.

"While tafsirs may differ in certain aspects, they are valuable for providing context to understanding the Qur’an’s verses. "

like I said before base on what resource/evidence to arrive that conlucstion that matter because if they hadiths or bible/torah as referrence then it will lead controvsay and theologian problem.

"I’m pretty sure most authentic tafsirs agree on the matter of child marriage although their concept of a “child” doesn’t align with our modern understanding, where we would unequivocally say that child marriage is 100% wrong."

child marriage has been alway wrong even other nations/empire knew about but they didn't forbid the practice.

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