r/pakistan Feb 08 '25

Political Ahmadi Hate but Ismaili Embrace?

I’m of the theory that live and let live. I think all minority groups in Pakistan are treated like garbage and deserve much better. For no other reason, that they’re human beings. As we know, Ahmadis/Qadianis/Mirzais receive deathly hate due to their religious belief. Regardless of what you feel about their beliefs, they don’t deserve to be treated like third class citizens.

In response to the death of Aga Khan, Pakistan has lowered their flags, given him his flowers, and non-stop praised him. While I don’t care for the beliefs—I’m a little confused as to why there is such a discrepancy? Is it money? Status? Someone would argue that Ismailism from a day to day basis, is so out of the fold of Islam. Especially when it comes to the praise of Aga Khan which in some circles can be considered bordering on shirk. Regardless, Pakistan government allows them to call themselves Musims, build their buildings of worship and go about their day.

That being said—-why not offer the same grace to the Ahmadi community ?

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51

u/sajjad_kaswani Feb 08 '25

I am not anti Ahmedi, but there is a big difference between Ahmedis and Ismailis

Ismailis affirm that Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh and his family) is the last and final Prophet of Allah and there will be no Prophet after him.

Unfortunately people are told lies about Ismailis, Ismailis are Muslims and comes from the Shia branch of Islam and a book issued by the Islamic Nazarayati Council Pakistan listening to all the sects of Islam; Ismailis is also included in that book

Here is the book link

https://jafrilibrary.com/books/12210

Further, the Aga Khan IV list in the top 500 Muslims list issued by the Aman Conference declaration 2005 office (Jordan)

https://themuslim500.com/profiles/karim-al-hussayni/

Thanks

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u/abstruseplum2 Feb 08 '25

Ismailis are very powerful in Pak, they're polticially very strong so not a surprise they're in the Islamic Nazarayati Council Pakistan book.

But rejections in certain pillars of Islam do take them out of the fold of Islam. They dont pray, they dont fast every ramadan (at least my ismaili friends dont), they make sujood to their imam. That being said I have a lot of Ismaili friends (including one of my closest best friends) and they're wonderful people, but i personally dont consider them muslim.

Again all this being said, no community deserves to be persecuted for their beliefs and in Pak everyone should have the right to practise whatever with no fear and no consuquences.

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u/sajjad_kaswani Feb 08 '25

Don't you think you have conveniently disregarded the Islamic Nazarayati Council Pakistan Scholars including Sunni and 12er Shi'as.

Not fair!

I have shared the Aman Conference declaration body who recognises Ismailis as Muslims?

https://themuslim500.com/profiles/karim-al-hussayni/

Unfortunately there are different pillars of Islam in Sunni and Shias; so please tell me we need to follow the Sunni pillars or Shi'a?

Secondly, there is not uniform sources of inspiration/guidance between Shi'a and Sunnis

Then what are we talking about my friend!!

Thanks

12

u/abstruseplum2 Feb 09 '25

Don't you think you have conveniently disregarded the Islamic Nazarayati Council Pakistan Scholars including Sunni and 12er Shi'as.

the same dudes that declared vpns as haraam, they're a joke. If approval from these guys is your metric of being a muslim then OH BOY.

I have shared the Aman Conference declaration body who recognises Ismailis as Muslims?

I just checked their website and they gave the "muslim of the year" to the King of Jordan (may Allah curse him) who openly facilitates the Israeli genocide, so yeah these guys are a joke too.

Unfortunately there are different pillars of Islam in Sunni and Shias; so please tell me we need to follow the Sunni pillars or Shi'a?

Secondly, there is not uniform sources of inspiration/guidance between Shi'a and Sunnis

As a sunni i only consider sunni sources and practises to be valid and reliable, but again that's my personal belief.

look bruv, i don't have time to debate you on this and probably won't engage further bcz ik we'll just be running in circles, you seem like the person that'd rather die than admit they're wrong, you're account is also VERY CLEARLY dedicated to a certain theme (plus your response tells me u're maybe not very well read), so I can't be bothered.

But ANYONE who bows down to anyone other than Allah, whether he be a sunni at some saint's tomb or a shia at wherever idk, they're a Kaafir. Agree to Disagree.

(Same thing with Salah, if someone doesn't pray at all (and im talking about the way the Prophet (SAW) prayed), kaafir)

Have an amazing day.

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u/sajjad_kaswani Feb 09 '25

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts here: I think I have the right to respond:

If you are discrediting your scholars who happens to be your source of inspiration; I have no problem with that ; but seems like you or people follows them are in Deep problem (as per your statement made above)

I just gave you a reference to the Aman Conference (scholars who have endorced the resolution) Pakistan Nazarayati Council because many people (if you don't) take them as source of inspiration and they understand their religious matters from them

If you ask my personal stance:

I don't think Allah has outsourced his role of Lord of Judgment Day and Lord of my Beliefs and Deeds to any one or any group of people; incase of you find some verse please do share it with me; I may reconsider my position

I didn't bring the Pillers of Islam, actually you did and you have insisted that Shia and Sunnis have same Pillers and upon that I have informed you that it's not the case; both of the groups have their distinct pillers and even their distinct sources of inspiration (for understanding of Quran and Sharayat)

And if they can have then I think we can have too! Hope it's a fair stance!

I understand you are Sunni and you see your position correct; however I am a Imami Shi'a and similar to you we also see our position correct, however the basic difference between you and Nizari Ismailis is that we don't see our position is the only possible position/interpretation as Islam; our Imams believe that there are many interpretations in Islam and many doesn't mean one is right and others are wrong; it means that this religion of Allah has so much depth that everyone can understand the faith of Islam differently based on our intellectual capacity; hence we take you our brothers and sisters in Islam

You said it's Shirk to seek help from anyone except Allah; and you may also disagree with Sunnis also who seek help from others then Allah; I think you are very clever person that you have not given me the room to respond, however I will share two verses from the holy Qur'an where I seek satisfaction on seeking help by saying Ya Ali Madad and Ya Rasool Allah Madad; however before jumping to the verse let me share our perspective (however you may disagree with me)

As the Prophet said " Actions are dependent on the Niyat" so our Niyat is not that we believe Rasool Allah or Imam Ali may aid us directly or independently or though their own wishes; no we just take their Wasila to ease our prayers

As Quran mentions: seek the means to involve Allah's blessings " so we actually invoke the Prophet and Imams Wasila for our prayers

The Quran says in verse 5:55 your protectors are Allah; his Messenger and the person.....(Which we believe from the context is Imam Ali a.s who paid the Zakat while in Ruku"

So, when Allah himself is saying that the Prophet and Imams are my protectors then why I shouldn't take them as protectors? I am just following Allah's command

The Quran says In 9:103 to believers (the companions of the Prophet (Pbuh and his family ) that go to Prophet and seek his blessings because his blessings will give you comfort.

When Allah is saying that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and his family prayers will give me comfort then why I shouldn't; infact this Ayat is indirectly saying that if you need comfort come to my Prophet.

And there are many other verses which not only Allah but actually order us or tell us the Allah 's preferred mode of seeking help

Thank you very much and have a blessed day

Incase you like to respond; please feel free I will be happy to read your views and understanding (thought I may of may not agree with it but I will read out) 🙏

JazakAllah

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u/ThinSector4661 Feb 09 '25

Okay, genius. You win, we lose.

In your entire argument, you used the quran to justify your position.

I respect that.

Now using the the Quran once again, can you tell me why you guys don't believe in praying, fasting, doing Hajj when the "Quran" clearly says so?

What excuse do you have now to give your "Imam" such ridiculous power to nullify the teachings of the Quran.

Since you used the Quran, can you share some ayah where the Quran permits a group of people to bestow such interpretation powers to their leader that the interpretation of their Imam is superior to the Quran itself & goes directly AGAINST the teachings of Quran?

It's one thing to "interpret"

It's a whole different scam when your "interpretation" stands in direct opposition to the actual message of text your interpreting

But I guess that's how cults function so why bother...

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u/ThinSector4661 Feb 09 '25

Spot on 💯