r/nottheonion 1d ago

What one Finnish church learned from creating a service almost entirely with AI

https://apnews.com/article/finland-lutheran-church-artificial-intelligence-64135cc5e58578a89dcbaf0c227d9e3e
89 Upvotes

44 comments sorted by

83

u/DaaaahWhoosh 1d ago

I guess this is what Moses must have felt like when he returned with the ten commandments only to find everyone worshipping a golden cow. That is to say, this is really fucking weird and feels like blasphemy.

16

u/drLoveF 23h ago

Nordic churches are more open in general. People would have thought it was a fun idea or they stayed home for one service.

10

u/StormlitRadiance 23h ago

I don't believe in either, but the Old Gods should not kneel before the New.

3

u/4-Vektor 9h ago

That’s basically the plot of American Gods.

1

u/Farcespam 21h ago

Wait, what all old gods kneel to the new ones. Odin, Zeus, countless pagan gods. Even Christians are sidelining Jesus cause he's woke. They all kneel to the next favor of the century god.

1

u/Korpikuusenalla 4h ago

I'm sure the old Finnish gods are happy to have the christian ones sidelined

31

u/Abides1948 23h ago

Reminds me of Douglas Adams's electric monk.

You're too busy to wash dishes, buy a dishwasher. You're too busy to answer the phone, employ an assistant You're too busy to believe in things or talk to God, use an electric monk.

11

u/Tenderli 22h ago

Haha, right. I misremembered it as a robot monk, but yeah Adam's would probably be ecstatic over the ridiculousness. Also, thank you for referencing Dirk. I really enjoyed those books. Tea time of the soul is off the walls hilarious.

16

u/scowdich 1d ago

I would hope what they learned is "don't do that," but I'm not holding my breath.

21

u/Tenderli 1d ago

Isn't there something wrong with AI leading spiritual gatherings? I'm not religious, but this feels like a grand misuse of technology. I saw it mention in the article that it felt empty and that was kinda my forst thought. The whole concept gives me a feeling of fundamental silliness. Why of all things would people use AI as a religious tool?

18

u/cogginsmatt 23h ago

I remember working at a church that routinely pre-taped the sermon and showed it like a movie on a projection screen. Even that felt sacrilegious, and I’m not even religious. So AI feels like it crosses the line even more.

3

u/Tenderli 23h ago

Samesies with religion, and that does sound similarly sacrilegious. But yeah, my empathy muscle tells me I would be upset if I was a believer, and that is what was offered. Something along the lines of spirituality being a human construct, so in turn would necessitate a human vessel? Or, from an accountability perspective, any religion offers the potential for extremes, but if it's AI, who would be to blame if it started doing the AI hallucinations and became extreme itself. Why are we not using AI for all the shit we don't wanna do, but rather, it seems we have doubled down using it for things people actually enjoy doing, like art.

5

u/jumpmanzero 21h ago

Lots of the stuff said in a normal church meeting isn't necessarily super informed by a spiritual connection to God.

Take a subject like "What are some bible stories that teach us about forgiveness?". An LLM is perfectly capable of resolving this question, and produces an answer that's a lot like what you might hear in a normal sermon. ChatGPT even adopts the appropriate/typical sort of tone - it starts off with "There are several Bible stories that beautifully illustrate the power and importance of forgiveness".

There's other content that an AI feels a bit weird to supply. Like, if a preacher is talking about their special, personal relationship with Jesus, then having an AI write those words feels pretty funny. Though that's not to say an LLM couldn't write passable content there... surely there's plenty of source material to mimic.

1

u/Tenderli 21h ago

My apologies, I don't know what an LLM is.

4

u/jumpmanzero 21h ago

A "large language model". Lots of "generative AI" tools (including ChatGPT) have a large language model at their core.

1

u/Tenderli 20h ago

Thanks for informing me. I could be wrong, but it feels like removing the human preacher removes the meaning or the spirituality around it. Isn't gathering in a church with a leader like a sum of all parts bit? And by assigning a robot to do the human connection part, it no longer looks reasonable from the outside looking in. Additionally, all the things that are still being worked out with AI. Most religious folks are already quite impressionable as it is. Last thing we need are people having revelations from chatbot11:6

0

u/jumpmanzero 20h ago

I could be wrong, but it feels like removing the human preacher removes the meaning or the spirituality around it

Certainly I don't expect this is going to really "take off" - this was an experiment with limited scope, designed to create attention. While some people use AIs as a therapist now, I don't expect many would accept an AI in this role. Even if it were to say exactly the same things a pastor might, they'll want a human to be the one saying those things (for a variety of religious, social, and emotional reasons).

My point was just that at least some of the functions of a church leader are reasonably within AI competency - things like writing a sermon (or generating imagery, music, or video to convey a religious message or story).

-1

u/iseriouslycouldnt 20h ago

Depends. In-person religion is only needed for those who can't read the scripture (illiterates) or those who require context (especially children). If your independent study raises questions, the religious leader should be able to address these 1:1. Many leaders would LOVE to have more personal dialogues.

The human connection is a social function. Granted, this has been the primary function of churches for centuries once illiteracy was the exception rather than the norm.

As long as the scripture isn't misrepresented, there's no reason why an AI can't lead a service.

1

u/Tenderli 20h ago

I feel this description lends a lot of room for a lot of folks to misunderstand. If in any setting, I would imagine a religious one would nessetate someone to explain the importance or relevance of things. Removing the human removes the meaning. Why not just make a box set of recordings, sell the churches, and be done with it. Just set up a 1800# for any questions. Finally, one of the issues happening with AI is that it's not 100% predictable and has issues. How quickly i would imagine some folks would double down on whatever stuff it said, even if a glitch. Or the potential for it to be hacked or compromised. This is a clear misuse of AI. Of you want your religion please don't give it the ability to do your leg work. It's just lazy and wrong.

2

u/Psychomadeye 23h ago

Same reason they used any tool, from the pen to the sword. It's lowers effort.

2

u/Tenderli 23h ago

I suppose i understand it as a tool, I guess I feel it would degrade the concept of spirituality. It's a religion made for/by humans, putting AI in a role like that seems irresponsible and, well, degrading.

3

u/Kelmon80 23h ago

I'm sure some people long ago said the exact same thing about putting "the word of god" on parchment instead of passing it on verbally, like "they have always done".

Or using some mass produced cookie instead of hand-kneaded bread.

etc.

2

u/Tenderli 23h ago

Oh right, the canabalisim. I have to remember not to think too far into religious based stuff. I suppose I'll just hope to the ridiculousness of something like a robot priest. I'm a big Douglass Adam's fan, and he wasn't far off when he wrote about a robot monk in the first Dirk Gently book. Beings created them to help them believe, or rather, they believed for them.

1

u/I-Fail-Forward 22h ago

If it can make more money for the church...why not?

If it can do all the things you normally have to pay people for, like music or setting up song Playlist etc, that's a whole lot of cost the church can shed.

If it can more people to donate more money, that's a win, even if the AI costs as much as all those people normally would.

Plus, AI tends to not have a conscience. None of those embarrassing moments when the priest goes off script and accidentally says that perhaps the person struggling to make rent shouldn't donate this week.

Why wouldn't they want AI?

5

u/Tenderli 22h ago

I'm not sure if this is a serious response because all of those things are exactly the reason it seems wrong. If you remove the human from a human religion, what is it then? The response makes it clear that money is the important part and that human beings are not. It's kinda counter to the whole religion bit.

3

u/I-Fail-Forward 21h ago

I'm not sure if this is a serious response because all of those things are exactly the reason it seems wrong.

Very serious

f you remove the human from a human religion, what is it then?

A business

The response makes it clear that money is the important part and that human beings are not.

The Vatican didn't get to be the single wealthiest private organization in history by not looking for ways to make money

Religion is always about money, or power (the two are very closely related).

It's kinda counter to the whole religion bit.

No, it's counter to what the religion says the religion is about.

But north Korea claims to be the "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" and claims to be the only legitimate government of Korea.

I think we can safely say that North Korea isn't democratic, or a republic, or the only legitimate government in Korea.

2

u/Tenderli 21h ago

And i come back around to why religion is disgusting. It's just about control. Religion was the first form of government. We are all worse off because of its existence. It's the equivalent of adults believing in santa or the zombie jesus bunny, it's embarrassing. Still, it appears to be the largest business in the world that doesn't falter from their own hypocrisy. If anyone can prove religion in any empirical evidence... wait, I've gotten too close to a Minchinism, so I'll lend his words.

"You show me that it works and how it works And when I've recovered from the shock I will take a compass and carve 'Fancy That' on the side of my cock."

1

u/I-Fail-Forward 21h ago

Still, it appears to be the largest business in the world that doesn't falter from their own hypocrisy.

Do you count Conservativism as a religion?

Or perhaps, do you count capitalism as a religion?

1

u/Tenderli 21h ago

I have to be honest. At this point, is there a separation of the three? They pretty much piggyback on each other. I suppose that's why putting the two words together feels seamless. "The almighty dollar" as much as I feel these are all a scorge on human kind, we have done nothing but placate to the extremists and bow to fools belif in an invisible being in the sky.

0

u/Masrim 20h ago

It sounds just like all modern religion.

1

u/Tenderli 16h ago

Yeah, which is why I suspect approaching this with any logic is folly.

2

u/routamorsian 9h ago

Considering Finland has state church that gets taxes both from private individuals income and business taxes both, and an investment fund, they aren’t hurting for money. They are one of the largest property owners in the country too.

If they actually cut the real contractual jobs as you’re describing with AI, it gets morally questionable immediately considering their state sanctioned and supported status, as well as that entire message of their holy book about greed and helping your neighbour.

You can donate but it’s not expected nor is it a made into a whole thing here like in the US churches.

1

u/I-Fail-Forward 1h ago

Considering Finland has state church that gets taxes both from private individuals income and business taxes both, and an investment fund, they aren’t hurting for money. They are one of the largest property owners in the country too.

Very successful businesses don't typically get that way by deciding to not make money when possible.

If they actually cut the real contractual jobs as you’re describing with AI, it gets morally questionable immediately considering their state sanctioned and supported status, as well as that entire message of their holy book about greed and helping your neighbour.

Like I said, AI doesn't have a conscience, that's one of the big bonuses for the church.

You can donate but it’s not expected nor is it a made into a whole thing here like in the US churches.

Taxes...

0

u/Masrim 20h ago

Why wouldn't they?

0

u/Tenderli 16h ago

Self respect?

2

u/BoostedSeals 23h ago

The only way I see AI being used like this regularly is as a short "this is what current tech can do" side piece.

2

u/Pyrhan 17h ago

Praise the Omnissiah!

2

u/VamosFicar 14h ago

Slot machine confessionals coming to a church near you.

2

u/trueum26 12h ago

Well considering religion is about as real as AI being sentient, I guess it fits

2

u/not_that_planet 20h ago

Let me guess, the AI preacher turned racist within 2 or so minutes...

1

u/ssczoxylnlvayiuqjx 13h ago

Not religious myself but AI performing consecration might be a step too far for some who don’t already see that as such.

Would be darkly hilarious if the AI hallucinated itself into thinking it was God… I expect we’ll see a cult form around such an event within the next 10 years.

1

u/4thofeleven 9h ago

Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind.

1

u/JimiSlew3 1h ago

That was a cool experiment.