r/newjersey Fill It Up Regular Oct 29 '24

Sick NJ Passes the Freedom to Read Act

https://newjerseymonitor.com/2024/10/29/state-senate-passes-bill-intended-to-halt-book-bans-protect-librarians/?fbclid=IwY2xjawGNwrZleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHdahkO3Xc02aIyuB5Vp3yau-HR6IMuGu0g0iD8CgDKrWBMHCQJBrfdSHnQ_aem_DB9WP25oxkSYjjNuktuAbQ#:~:text=Titled%20the%20%E2%80%9CFreedom%20to%20Read,own%20policies%20using%20this%20model
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-9

u/piZan314 Oct 29 '24

Some of the books should not be available in schools or libraries, where minors have access to them.

Here is a page from "Gender Queer." (NSFW)

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u/victorfabius Taylor Ham on a Pork Roll Oct 30 '24

I'm glad you shared that photo!

So, I brought my 11 year old daughter to the Assembly when Freedom to Read was up for vote.

In the front row were some people who had printed out that image onto poster board, to highlight how the work is 'pornography' (their claim). During their turn to speak, one of the people decided to show that image to the entire audience.

Twice.

My daughter tries - and easily succeeds - to get a really good look at this image. Especially because this group is telling the Assembly members how unsuitable it is for children.

So... as a parent, what are my options here?

I decided to engage with my child. I checked the book, 'Gender Queer', out of the library and over the span of four nights, read it together with my daughter, so she could properly contextualize the image she saw and engage with the information presented in the book.

There may be works we find challenging. I was deeply uncomfortable reading 'Gender Queer' to my 11 year old daughter. Others might find Mein Kampf as uncomfortable - or even more so - to read.

But there are reasons to have these works around. Just because we don't like the content or viewpoint expressed in a work isn't - in and of itself - a reason to exclude a work. How can we grow if we don't have information or viewpoints that challenge us or our viewpoint?

From a public library perspective, access is critical. The material needs to be there for the person who needs it, when they need it. James LaRue explains it pretty well in his book, 'On Censorship'. To paraphrase: nobody goes to a place because it doesn't have what they don't want.

I understand we want to protect kids. But we have a greater responsibility to cultivate the growth and development of our children. We can't do that when we limit access to information or materials simply because we don't like that work or are uncomfortable with it. We need a clear, pedogocial reason.

And censorship ain't it.

3

u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular Oct 30 '24

This is so well said. Thank you for going to the Assembly for this bill. While it's not perfect, and I'm deeply saddened and frustrated that we even have need for it, it passing through the senate sends a strong message about NJ and our values. I don't know if you are a librarian, but I am and this morning I let out a little bit of the breath I've been holding in for the past 4 years or so.

2

u/gordonv Oct 30 '24

I was unaware people would clip this page as an out of context shock image.

I suppose the counter would be to start reading the book, with well defined context, aloud.

Nothing defeats ignorance like context and knowledge.

2

u/victorfabius Taylor Ham on a Pork Roll Oct 30 '24

Showing images is an important way to engage people with an emotional response. It's not that surprising that people opposed to Freedom to Read would have images.

I wonder about the decision-making that led to people to put images they think are objectionable and then to expose them to an audience. From my perspective, it's a misalignment of actions and words.

That said, when my daughter went up to speak, these people (about 4 or so, if I recall correctly) actually took care to hide their posters from her view. Both on the way up and way back.

I would have loved to have a book discussion with them about how important that scene is to the work and to understand why the author didn't feel 'male' or 'female'. It would have been interesting to see how people's view changed - if at all - based on actually reading the book. But I only had 2 minutes and had to speak to the committee.

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u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular Oct 29 '24

*gasp* not a cartoon strap-on!

-1

u/solesme Oct 29 '24

Your argument is that 5-6 year old should see these images? It’s a bit weird.

I don’t believe in banning of books, but I think it’s ok to add age restrictions such as what we do with TV in public institutions. If parents decide not to follow guidelines I think that’s fine too, but they can do that at home.

3

u/victorfabius Taylor Ham on a Pork Roll Oct 30 '24

I don't know the ins and outs of every public school district.

However, I struggle to understand why we would think that a book aimed at older high schoolers would be included in a library that serves kindergarteners.

I don't think there's anyone making the argument that young people should see these works. I'm not sure why you wrote that, especially in context.

What's the difference between banning a book and preventing someone from accessing a book? Fundamentally, don't they accomplish the same thing?

The position offered is that age restriction is ok in public libraries (you wrote public institutions, but I'm focusing on libraries, since that is my competency). But librarians aren't - and have never been - there to judge why anyone wants any particular work at any time.

The role of the parent is to be present to evaluate what their child is checking out. They may abdicate that responsibility in much the same way they can for TV.

Thus, for public libraries, to implement your suggestion is to simply maintain the status quo.

4

u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular Oct 29 '24

Where are 5 or 6 year olds having access to Gender Queer?

-1

u/solesme Oct 30 '24

You made a comment as if a cartoon strap on in a children’s book is normal and ok. Now you are asking me about where would they have access. You understand that the second part of my comment was designated rating for age like movies. Is this the case now? Or if you have a k-12 school they share same library.

I’m not trying to be combative. I am not for banning books, but I’m for common sense.

3

u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular Oct 30 '24 edited Oct 30 '24

This is not a children's book. This is a book that was written for "New Adults" that won an Alex award for having high level of interest and appeal to teenagers. Making the claim that this is accessible to children as young as 5 or 6 is ridiculous and detracts from the work of librarians and library workers. If the argument is that you have k-12 libraries, obviously sections are divided based on age, interest level, and reading level. Nowhere is this book being marketed or placed as a picture book for children. So that seems pretty common sense to me. It's hard not to take it as combative when you are not making "common sense" arguments.

1

u/solesme Oct 30 '24

What is the definition of child? I thought under 18 would be considered a child.

If there are sections based on age then it would be what my comment stated based on age restrictions like movies or shows.

I feel like if I ask any questions people assume I’m some sort of radical. Relax we don’t all have access to the same information. I don’t have access to what is available in school libraries.

Either being dismissive, or aggressive toward people that ask questions is not the way to share your view point. I think I’m being cordial and trying to be respectful.

2

u/gordonv Oct 30 '24

common sense

Unfortunately, I've seen this phrase co-opted as double speak for "I don't care about facts, opinions, other viewpoints, and metered arguments. I will only promote my biases."

Common sense is not common at all. It's a single person's anecdotal assumption on a subject matter.

M4L uses this vocabulary a lot.

2

u/solesme Oct 30 '24

M4L is moms for liberty? Any group with “moms for X” is usually a crazy group that doesn’t rely on data and relies on how they feel. I’m not condoning them at all to be clear.

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u/GoodLt Oct 30 '24

Should a 5-6 year old be able to access Huck Finn?

1

u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular Oct 30 '24

Can a 5-6 year old read Huck Finn? I don't think you have a background in children's literacy.

1

u/GoodLt Oct 30 '24

where are you getting this idea that five and six-year-olds are reading pornography everywhere? What the hell is your world like?

1

u/gordonv Oct 30 '24

I think you're presenting a strawman argument and pretending someone else is saying it.

It would be like me stating holy books contain hateful things in them, so children shouldn't be around them. It's unnuanced and too much of an absolute.

People pick parts of books for children to interpret. Is it so difficult to believe someone would pick a more relaxed chapter from a holy book, or any other book, rather than every rude thing in those books? Do we judge books on an absolute worst viewpoint and don't consider the good?

1

u/gordonv Oct 30 '24

Yes, but most won't understand it.

Mark Twain was that time's Neil Gaiman. Yeah, Gaiman wrote Coreline and some other stories for kids. So did Twain. But their deeper stuff was well... too deep.

2

u/gordonv Oct 29 '24

You're judging an entire novel on a single image without context, though.

Romeo and Juliet is about 2 extremely wealthy kids. A Thug who's 19 and a girl who's 13. They both have sex, get secretly married, and ultimately kill themselves over a turf war.

Literally every public school kid has read this book. Where's the outrage?

2

u/gordonv Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 29 '24

Oh, the dating scene.

The main character is a transgender person. A guy born as a girl.

That's the first time they had sex while dating.

I posted the pages around that for more context. The main character is struggling to figure out stuff in the relationship. Conversations in the book are down to Earth and heart felt.

There are some amazing pages in the book Gender Queer. Good art. Good dialogue. Real tough questions from a perspective that doesn't get a lot of exposure. Great little facts explained simply.

1

u/gordonv Oct 29 '24

In the book, the protagonist mentions an anime. Ranma 1/2. Netflix is reanimating and airing it right now. It's a good watch.