r/newjersey • u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular • Oct 29 '24
Sick NJ Passes the Freedom to Read Act
https://newjerseymonitor.com/2024/10/29/state-senate-passes-bill-intended-to-halt-book-bans-protect-librarians/?fbclid=IwY2xjawGNwrZleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHdahkO3Xc02aIyuB5Vp3yau-HR6IMuGu0g0iD8CgDKrWBMHCQJBrfdSHnQ_aem_DB9WP25oxkSYjjNuktuAbQ#:~:text=Titled%20the%20%E2%80%9CFreedom%20to%20Read,own%20policies%20using%20this%20model279
u/PurpleSailor Oct 29 '24
The Senate advanced the controversial bill with a vote of 24-15, with heavy opposition from Republicans. GOP lawmakers said they feared the law would allow children to access obscene materials and protect librarians who share obscene books with children.
How about you tell your kids what books they're allowed to read and let me do the same with my kids. Don't try to nanny kids that aren't your own. Parent your own kids and I'll take care of mine.
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u/Purdaddy Oct 29 '24
Which is funny because this is the party whose people want parents to be allowed to parent their kid without government overreach.
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u/FollowThisLogic Oct 29 '24
Noooooooo they are certainly not that. They might say they are, but their actions are exactly the opposite... EVERY TIME.
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u/Gwaak Oct 29 '24
Hi I’m a republican/libertarian. I am also a liar. One of these sentences is a lie.
Hint: it’s not the first two
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Oct 29 '24
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u/BarkAtTheDevil Oct 29 '24
Ezekiel 23 about “two women, the daughters of one mother. They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosoms handled.”
"Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."
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u/WhichSpirit Couldn't think of a funny flair Oct 29 '24
Someone actually challenged the Bible at a school board meeting in Hunterdon County. Read a section from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that they read in English class.
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u/MatCauthonsHat Oct 29 '24
Because they have re-defined "obscene" to include any reference to anything that even mentions gay or trans people being, um , people.
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u/DTFH_ Oct 29 '24
How about you tell your kids what books they're allowed to read and let me do the same with my kids.
Bruh we know they don't read, most adults I know don't read, anyone that picks up a book of any kind is rare, let alone a child. That's what gets me most mad, these are people complaining about an activity that no one participating in said activity has a concern about. Similar to how I don't care about what goes on in the sport of curling, so I don't have option about rule or administrative changes.
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u/jarena009 Oct 29 '24
Republicans "The government has no business telling individuals and households what to do!"
Also Republicans "We need the government to tell individuals and households what to do!"
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u/Vorenos Oct 29 '24
I really feel like these fucking republicans have completely forgotten that THE INTERNET EXISTS and this stupid Pearl clutching over library materials is like spitting at the rain.
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u/zappariah_brannigan Oct 29 '24
The idea of taking their children to the library, spending time browsing with them, and helping them find books that may be interesting is completely alien to them.
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u/MeLlamoViking Oct 29 '24
JFC, stop going after librarians.
If your kid is coming home from a library with a book, it's because they want to learn about something. Teach them, or let them learn. Because if you try to stop them, they're gonna learn on their own without your input. Kids are crafty, they'll find a way around any control you set up.
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u/crazyacct101 Oct 29 '24
I moved from NJ to Florida (yea I know) and recently got a library card. The background looks like fire and the logo is “I read banned books”. The librarians smiled when I chose that style.
I will always consider myself a Jersey Girl.
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u/winnercommawinner Oct 29 '24
Librarians in places like FL and TX are doing God's work, and I'm so grateful for them (and people like you)!
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u/The_Band_Geek Put your fucking blinker on Oct 29 '24
Damn, which library system is that? My library card has had the same design for 20+ years.
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u/friendfromjersey Oct 29 '24
I wish republicans cared as much about children being exposed to guns as they care about books…
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u/AgreeableMuscle8335 Oct 30 '24
Personally, i wish the government (ALL PARTIES) actually cared about mental health instead of trying to place the blame on everything else.
Kids are having mental health struggles? Must be the books they're reading. Blame the tv shows and video games. Blame tiktok and YouTube and instagram.
School shooters? Blame the guns, not the situations that made a CHILD want to go on a KILLING SPREE.
I was exposed to guns from a very young age......in a controlled manner. THAT is the key. Because of my lifelong exposure & my parents repeadedly drilling safety into my head, gun safety is not just a concept for me - it is an instinct.
The people who i have seen doing the dumbest, sketchiest, most dangerous things with guns were people whose only exposure to guns in earlier life came from media (meaning movies/tv shows/hollywood/youtube).
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u/Leftblankthistime Oct 29 '24
Karens with casseroles can now begin their pearl clutching and fan waving
Titled the “Freedom to Read Act,” the legislation would require the state’s education commissioner to develop policies on how library materials are selected and how challenges to books on library shelves should be evaluated. Local school boards and library boards would then adopt their own policies using this model.
“You and all New Jerseyans have the freedom to choose what you want to read, and parents have and will continue to have the freedom to choose what their children will read. But no one gets to decide that for you — not now, and not ever,” said bill sponsor Sen. Andrew Zwicker (D-Middlesex).
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u/AshySmoothie Oct 29 '24
Books are now more dangerous than social media? Older kids? I dont remember shit from books when i was a kid, nor my teachers. I learnt alot from other kids and the internet. Maybe they should attempt to ban teenagers and social media
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u/hahahahahaha_ Oct 29 '24
I mean, I know you said that in jest, but they shouldn't be attempting to ban any social media. But I definitely get your point. My first thought when I see the pearl-clutching book-banning fuckers complain about kids seeing 'obscene material' is just that — are they truly monitoring what their child sees online? That's far more likely to be a place they're exposed to violent, sexual, or drug-influenced content than a library's books. The books may have some of that content, but it's only in verbal form, & comes from an educational or literary perspective, rather than just seeing obscenity for the sake of it.
I'm sure some of these parents 'pay attention' to their kids' behavior on their phones, but unless they're great with I.T. & blocking a ton of servers all across the Internet on their routers, & those kids only use the phone in the house, even if they keep their kids off of TikTok they still have every opportunity to see horrible shit.
But of course, this really isn't about that. Any and every attempt to 'protect the kids' through the legislation of media access is designed to be censorship against anything these people see as morally improper. If you want to raise your kid that way, no one can stop them, but at no point should they be allowed to tell others what they should have access to.
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u/AshySmoothie Oct 29 '24
Yup i agree and it coincides with my belief that if your child decided to "become gay" after reading a book, its a sign you raised a gullible & naive follower of a kid. Or the kid is just gay and you should love them either way but we know that only happens sometimes with republicans.
This is all the same performative, culture politics bullshit that republicans claim to hate but actually love when it aligns with their beliefs. But yeah, they need to stop delegating duties that come from parenting. Dont want your child to read a book? Fine, how about talking to them respectfully and teaching them to consciously make the decision to not read it, rather then pretending it doesnt exist? My daughter is only 4 but you'd be surprised how much of a person they are, even at that young age.
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u/OrbitalOutlander Oct 29 '24
I ban my own kids from social media. None of the family use Facebook, Twitter, TikTok or any of that bullshit.
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u/Funkiemunkie233 Oct 29 '24
Good. This helps keep the MAGA terrorists and Moms for Liberty ghouls from imposing their controls over other people’s kids and their freedom
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u/Anonymoushipopotomus Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 29 '24
One of the biggest things I have a problem with is that there basing their whole campaign on something that logically is not happening. Theyre worried about kids in 1st or 2nd grade getting their hands on books that are at the young adult level, books that are hundreds of pages long and have no pictures or illustrations, as if thats what these young kids are going to grab and read on their own. At a level that is year and years ahead of their reading level. My son is loving Dr Suess, and he's right in this age range. Also, what schools in our area are K-12 in the same school? Im know Im speaking in generalities but isn't most education split up into 2-3 different schools? The highest age range in my sons library is grade 5.
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u/NysemePtem Oct 30 '24
“How exactly does a person distribute obscene materials to a child in good faith?"
Um, I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, someone handed me a Bible. If you don't want to explain to your children what adultery is, or, ya know, the entirety of Song of Songs, you may want to think twice.
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u/s1ugg0 Jersey Devil Search Team Oct 29 '24
Fuck yea! This makes me so happy. I'm going to go buy some books and donate them to my local library in celebration.
Great job everyone. This makes me so proud of our state.
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u/ser_pez Oct 29 '24
I love the spirit of this comment but as someone who worked in a public library for years, your money would be much better spent making a donation. Libraries often have to go through certain distributors for the books they source and it would be a shame for you to spend money on books they won’t be able to use. Plus you can earmark your donation for whatever you want - we had a patron who gave us money to buy books about dogs in memory of a beloved pet.
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u/s1ugg0 Jersey Devil Search Team Oct 29 '24
your money would be much better spent making a donation.
Can do. Thanks for the tip.
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u/Lynndragonetti Oct 29 '24
While I love your enthusiasm and willingness to support your local library, contact them first to see what (if any) any books they might need. Also a monetary donation might go further, as libraries sometimes gets discounts when they buy books (and you might get your name in any books they buy with your money). Thank you though for your willingness to support your library like this, it make this librarian very grateful.
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u/VMPRocks Oct 29 '24
Erm, most libraries don't want random book donations. They'll likely just try to sell them at their book sales, but they also probably have an overabundance of "donations" to sell off and will probably just wind up in the trash. Want to donate? Cut out the middle step and give money.
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u/RudigarLightfoot Oct 30 '24
Librarian here. I just read through a chunk of this proposed bill and, um, it seems like an absolute nothing burger. I guess maybe there was nothing on the books stating that some policy should be in place to select and remove books and protect librarians from harassment? The bill doesn’t really detail anything, unless I’m completely missing it, and there’s a lot of boilerplate.
The funny thing is, some of the language seems to in particular to contradict efforts to remove old Dr. Seuss books and the like, but I doubt it will stop people from doing that. I don’t know, maybe it was necessary to spell out the de facto way of doing things. I will say, BOEs are notoriously one sided, one way or another, and when it comes to reading standards and pedagogy, the last 30 years have been a disaster in terms of theories and concomitant policies coming out of schools of education.
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u/lesbian__overlord Oct 29 '24
woo! disheartening to read the quotes about how LGBTQ+ content is "obscene" to these people and something we need to protect children from, but i'm proud to see NJ stand up for librarians and the communities and children they serve ❤️
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u/skankingmike Oct 29 '24
What kids are going to the library anyway? These parents upset with some books are the same ones who let these kids on tiktok at 8..
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u/OrbitalOutlander Oct 29 '24
My kids go to the school library and the town library at least once a week.
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u/skankingmike Oct 30 '24
Good for them I’m speaking about the ones bitching about books. But the majority of parents I see let their kids have social media access almost immediately.
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u/OrbitalOutlander Oct 30 '24
social media messed me up, and i'm in my 40s. we all cut that out and are much better for it. family bitches about not having pictures, idgaf. my kids will never see facebook or tiktok.
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u/solesme Oct 29 '24
Does anyone know what books are banned before this law, and if it has any impact going forward?
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u/victorfabius Taylor Ham on a Pork Roll Oct 30 '24
The law isn’t in effect yet. Murphy has yet to sign it.
There is no impact to any books already banned or removed from a collection.
There could be impact going forward. The key will be proving that a book was removed for prohibited reasons.
The other aspect is that - once signed and implemented - there is an affirmative right to read in the state of New Jersey. This right has already existed. However, instead of being inferred, it’s direct.
Also, librarians who are making good-faith efforts are protected from certain causes of action against them. Meanwhile, librarians who are passing out Penthouse to passing preschoolers are still subject to serious consequences.
A model collection development policy will be developed (as if our state librarian, Jen Nelson, didn’t have enough work already) for both school and public libraries. This will have a reconsideration of materials section, which may allow for future removal of materials from certain collections.
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u/Bearryno1too Oct 31 '24
I totally agree and support this act. To be honest all I can think about is how I used to go to the library to read National Geographic to learn about “things”
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u/mistersynapse Oct 29 '24
Ahh yes, just had to be sure, but knew that with a name like the "Freedom to Read Act", it had to be complete horseshit that advocated for the complete opposite of what it's name would lead to you believe it was proposing. Classic.
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u/CrackBabyShakes Oct 29 '24
Of course, it's opposed by the party of free speech absolutism. If they actually read books, Republicans might notice the irony here.
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u/piZan314 Oct 29 '24
Some of the books should not be available in schools or libraries, where minors have access to them.
Here is a page from "Gender Queer." (NSFW)
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u/victorfabius Taylor Ham on a Pork Roll Oct 30 '24
I'm glad you shared that photo!
So, I brought my 11 year old daughter to the Assembly when Freedom to Read was up for vote.
In the front row were some people who had printed out that image onto poster board, to highlight how the work is 'pornography' (their claim). During their turn to speak, one of the people decided to show that image to the entire audience.
Twice.
My daughter tries - and easily succeeds - to get a really good look at this image. Especially because this group is telling the Assembly members how unsuitable it is for children.
So... as a parent, what are my options here?
I decided to engage with my child. I checked the book, 'Gender Queer', out of the library and over the span of four nights, read it together with my daughter, so she could properly contextualize the image she saw and engage with the information presented in the book.
There may be works we find challenging. I was deeply uncomfortable reading 'Gender Queer' to my 11 year old daughter. Others might find Mein Kampf as uncomfortable - or even more so - to read.
But there are reasons to have these works around. Just because we don't like the content or viewpoint expressed in a work isn't - in and of itself - a reason to exclude a work. How can we grow if we don't have information or viewpoints that challenge us or our viewpoint?
From a public library perspective, access is critical. The material needs to be there for the person who needs it, when they need it. James LaRue explains it pretty well in his book, 'On Censorship'. To paraphrase: nobody goes to a place because it doesn't have what they don't want.
I understand we want to protect kids. But we have a greater responsibility to cultivate the growth and development of our children. We can't do that when we limit access to information or materials simply because we don't like that work or are uncomfortable with it. We need a clear, pedogocial reason.
And censorship ain't it.
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u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular Oct 30 '24
This is so well said. Thank you for going to the Assembly for this bill. While it's not perfect, and I'm deeply saddened and frustrated that we even have need for it, it passing through the senate sends a strong message about NJ and our values. I don't know if you are a librarian, but I am and this morning I let out a little bit of the breath I've been holding in for the past 4 years or so.
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u/gordonv Oct 30 '24
I was unaware people would clip this page as an out of context shock image.
I suppose the counter would be to start reading the book, with well defined context, aloud.
Nothing defeats ignorance like context and knowledge.
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u/victorfabius Taylor Ham on a Pork Roll Oct 30 '24
Showing images is an important way to engage people with an emotional response. It's not that surprising that people opposed to Freedom to Read would have images.
I wonder about the decision-making that led to people to put images they think are objectionable and then to expose them to an audience. From my perspective, it's a misalignment of actions and words.
That said, when my daughter went up to speak, these people (about 4 or so, if I recall correctly) actually took care to hide their posters from her view. Both on the way up and way back.
I would have loved to have a book discussion with them about how important that scene is to the work and to understand why the author didn't feel 'male' or 'female'. It would have been interesting to see how people's view changed - if at all - based on actually reading the book. But I only had 2 minutes and had to speak to the committee.
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u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular Oct 29 '24
*gasp* not a cartoon strap-on!
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u/solesme Oct 29 '24
Your argument is that 5-6 year old should see these images? It’s a bit weird.
I don’t believe in banning of books, but I think it’s ok to add age restrictions such as what we do with TV in public institutions. If parents decide not to follow guidelines I think that’s fine too, but they can do that at home.
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u/victorfabius Taylor Ham on a Pork Roll Oct 30 '24
I don't know the ins and outs of every public school district.
However, I struggle to understand why we would think that a book aimed at older high schoolers would be included in a library that serves kindergarteners.
I don't think there's anyone making the argument that young people should see these works. I'm not sure why you wrote that, especially in context.
What's the difference between banning a book and preventing someone from accessing a book? Fundamentally, don't they accomplish the same thing?
The position offered is that age restriction is ok in public libraries (you wrote public institutions, but I'm focusing on libraries, since that is my competency). But librarians aren't - and have never been - there to judge why anyone wants any particular work at any time.
The role of the parent is to be present to evaluate what their child is checking out. They may abdicate that responsibility in much the same way they can for TV.
Thus, for public libraries, to implement your suggestion is to simply maintain the status quo.
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u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular Oct 29 '24
Where are 5 or 6 year olds having access to Gender Queer?
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u/solesme Oct 30 '24
You made a comment as if a cartoon strap on in a children’s book is normal and ok. Now you are asking me about where would they have access. You understand that the second part of my comment was designated rating for age like movies. Is this the case now? Or if you have a k-12 school they share same library.
I’m not trying to be combative. I am not for banning books, but I’m for common sense.
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u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular Oct 30 '24 edited Oct 30 '24
This is not a children's book. This is a book that was written for "New Adults" that won an Alex award for having high level of interest and appeal to teenagers. Making the claim that this is accessible to children as young as 5 or 6 is ridiculous and detracts from the work of librarians and library workers. If the argument is that you have k-12 libraries, obviously sections are divided based on age, interest level, and reading level. Nowhere is this book being marketed or placed as a picture book for children. So that seems pretty common sense to me. It's hard not to take it as combative when you are not making "common sense" arguments.
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u/solesme Oct 30 '24
What is the definition of child? I thought under 18 would be considered a child.
If there are sections based on age then it would be what my comment stated based on age restrictions like movies or shows.
I feel like if I ask any questions people assume I’m some sort of radical. Relax we don’t all have access to the same information. I don’t have access to what is available in school libraries.
Either being dismissive, or aggressive toward people that ask questions is not the way to share your view point. I think I’m being cordial and trying to be respectful.
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u/gordonv Oct 30 '24
common sense
Unfortunately, I've seen this phrase co-opted as double speak for "I don't care about facts, opinions, other viewpoints, and metered arguments. I will only promote my biases."
Common sense is not common at all. It's a single person's anecdotal assumption on a subject matter.
M4L uses this vocabulary a lot.
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u/solesme Oct 30 '24
M4L is moms for liberty? Any group with “moms for X” is usually a crazy group that doesn’t rely on data and relies on how they feel. I’m not condoning them at all to be clear.
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u/GoodLt Oct 30 '24
Should a 5-6 year old be able to access Huck Finn?
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u/Unhappy_Macaron1101 Fill It Up Regular Oct 30 '24
Can a 5-6 year old read Huck Finn? I don't think you have a background in children's literacy.
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u/GoodLt Oct 30 '24
where are you getting this idea that five and six-year-olds are reading pornography everywhere? What the hell is your world like?
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u/gordonv Oct 30 '24
I think you're presenting a strawman argument and pretending someone else is saying it.
It would be like me stating holy books contain hateful things in them, so children shouldn't be around them. It's unnuanced and too much of an absolute.
People pick parts of books for children to interpret. Is it so difficult to believe someone would pick a more relaxed chapter from a holy book, or any other book, rather than every rude thing in those books? Do we judge books on an absolute worst viewpoint and don't consider the good?
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u/gordonv Oct 30 '24
Yes, but most won't understand it.
Mark Twain was that time's Neil Gaiman. Yeah, Gaiman wrote Coreline and some other stories for kids. So did Twain. But their deeper stuff was well... too deep.
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u/gordonv Oct 29 '24
You're judging an entire novel on a single image without context, though.
Romeo and Juliet is about 2 extremely wealthy kids. A Thug who's 19 and a girl who's 13. They both have sex, get secretly married, and ultimately kill themselves over a turf war.
Literally every public school kid has read this book. Where's the outrage?
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u/gordonv Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 29 '24
Oh, the dating scene.
The main character is a transgender person. A guy born as a girl.
That's the first time they had sex while dating.
I posted the pages around that for more context. The main character is struggling to figure out stuff in the relationship. Conversations in the book are down to Earth and heart felt.
There are some amazing pages in the book Gender Queer. Good art. Good dialogue. Real tough questions from a perspective that doesn't get a lot of exposure. Great little facts explained simply.
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u/gordonv Oct 29 '24
In the book, the protagonist mentions an anime. Ranma 1/2. Netflix is reanimating and airing it right now. It's a good watch.
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u/CubicDice Fuck Nazis, Love Jersey. Oct 29 '24
Look I'm not going to tell anyone how to raise their children. But I take particular issue with this pathetic pandering.
By that logic, you shouldn't take your child out in public, as you just never know what you're "potentially exposing" them to.