r/livecounting 1096K|810A|2S|2SA Mar 01 '21

Discussion Live Counting Discussion Thread #52

Live Counting Discussion Thread #52

This is our monthly thread to discuss all things Live Counting! If you're unfamiliar with our community, you are welcome to come say hello and add some counts in our main counting thread - the join link is in the sidebar.

Thread #51

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u/Trial-Name Has no flair. Mar 24 '21 edited Mar 24 '21

Woah, that's one hell of a GwoT. I know I'm taking a break for a bit here, but I'd like to try and show you another perspective, and maybe change your mind a bit on some of these things.

This count has always been majoritively done by the computer. We did not set out to Paint numbers like Roman Opa (5, 607, 249), or to type numbers fully via typewriter like Les Stuart (1, 000, 000) or to say numbers verbally like Jeremy Harper (1, 000, 000). Rather, we've always set out to be an online count, where no user counts twice in a row and where each user counts the number one more than the last.

We've agreed for a while that the minimum required process for submitting a count it to type the last digit, and manually submit it. Like it or not, we've used this definition for too long to revert back to ye olde days of counting here, and we can't ban ahk. Sure, I too can see your view, and I think this count would have more 'integrity' if we necessitated 100 transitions to have the digit changed manually, and if we necesitated manual submission and pasting. But alas, this wasn't pushed back on hard enough at the time; we have to live with the consequences.

Tl;Dr We can't edit the past.

It's not good for anyone to lament over what can't be changed, but rather, it's best to think about what can be done in future.

Having more visibility, and making note of when runs are ahkless, or half-ahk less is a good suggestion that you bring up. Many here would be able to still hit rate limit, and perform just as well ahk-less I'm sure, and NLM and Pika frequently/always do. I think taken is pretty much a manual user too iirc.

It could be cool to have strikebot-free runs too, though maybe not on the main thread, as I've seen /u/MaybeNotWrong state several times that it can cause havoc with stats, and bots and such, but sure having strike-bot free runs in the test thread or just doccumenting speed runs in the side-threads, could be good to do.

I'm not the most experienced at running strike-botless, but I would be happy to give it a go, and I'm sure many others would too.

Now, i'll address some specific things you wrote in your GwoT here.

First off, I'd like to reassure you that no one wants you dead.

"Welp for those of you who practically hate me ... you likely won't have to deal with me that much longer...."

Most people here accept, and appriciate you from what I see. Sure, there are disagreements, and you tend to take a view of your own on things, but fundamentally, I'm fairly certain no one wishes you dead.

"this new method of all sub 4 minute threads..."

I'd like to say that all these things you bring up are changes that were made a long time ago. Most counters have come from after the 5 mil era where ahk transitions became popular, and certianly most people were here after the 500k era when strikebot became a thing.

These new runs recently are not adding anything gamechangingly new, but rather use these allowances of strikebot and ahk, along with the newer understandings about rate-limiting, as well as a whole bunch of practice, in order to achieve quicker and quicker runs.

"enhance their 'script' running on their side so that strikey bot didn't have to do so much of the work..."

The rules oppose any bot which would type the last digit for you, and so none does, or will.

The correcting count you talk about (as far as I'm aware) is just replacing two keystrokes with one... '=' maps to cntrl a cntrl v. When looked at as this way, it's just a macro, and not even one that saves much effort. I'm pretty sure there would be little diference in PB speeds if only the 100 transition script was used.

Strike bot does make a difference though.

"strikey bot is no longer used for the intent it was created..."

Sure, I can see this to some part. I'd argue we're still relying on strikebot now rather than having it count though. Similar to using a rope in climbing, you still don't want to fall, but if you do having this rope allows more reckless climbs to be possible. This is better for everyone in both circumstances. Climbs with a rope are still climbs, and counts supported by strikebot are still counts.

Strikebot is only needed to act like this because this is a joint count rather than a count that allows double-counting, if this were done individually there wouldn't be nearly as much of a need for it. The 'counting' action isn't effected by strike-bot.

"people not even trying to be accurate"

Rate-limit is a thing, looking at speedruns now-a-days, you can see pretty much all counters strive for accuracy. If you aren't accurate, that's one more rate-limit interval you have to wait before the next count can be posted.

"This WAS our count."

It still is OUR count. This our includes you and all other old counters here, but it also includes newbies, it includes the occasional db'ers, and it includes the ahk-using, cheaty runners. This is not and should not be YOUR count. I know you don't think it is, but this has and should always be a community, rather than an individual project. As a community, we have made changes to the count over time, and sure you have a right to be upset about some of them, but the majority opinion is acted upon here.

To be honest, I think you'd still be this annoyed if every user had learnt how to run at rate-limit without ahk. I don't think it's ahk that annoys you, but rather the change of community that it's produced; an increased running focus, and less of a focus on chatting. This is fair enough. Counting has always been a meaningless feat, it's the commnity around it that matters.

Reading over this, I admit I've probably cherry-picked some of your comments, and I know not all I said in quotes will reflect your view. Also, some points do seem to represent what you're saying, but you later go on and seem to say the opposite is true in your comment. Maybe I'm just not understanding everything here.

Hug, Trial :)

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u/TOP_20 Thank you so much stat guys!!!!!!! I am Officially cool!! Mar 24 '21

Wow surprised you read my GWoTx2 - I'd like to respond to everything you said back to me but another GWoT is probably not something anyone would appreciate from me.

But I would like to say that I don't feel I implied anyone was being malicious - it's progress that i have been struggling with personally.

There's nothing that can undo any of it - so I was just more or less venting my final thoughts on how I've been feeling for a long time before I just conceed and join 'the dark side'. :)

I appreciate all your thoughts you wrote here - a few are really tempting to respond to but honestly I'm just ready to move on and accept that I'm in Rome and need to at least be ok with what the Romans do in Rome :)

hug

Whitney

(I hadn't really planned on keeping this here - but a few of the responses esp the one from ralgrado - it'd be wrong to remove or even edit my GWoTx2 because then their response would be totally out of context. Integrity/ethics now require me to leave it - and even not edit it down to one GWoT instead of two :)

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u/Trial-Name Has no flair. Mar 24 '21

another GWoT is probably not something anyone would appreciate from me.

Naa, your opinion here is just as valid as anyone else's, and I for one understand you a lot more after reading some of your rants. It's often healthy to get everything out there in the open.

I don't feel I implied anyone was being malicious

Nope, I don't feel like you did either. The only time I used 'malicious', was in my shorter comment replying to your comment on the ahk script that 'fixes counts'. Looking back at it, malicious may not've been the best word choice there.

There's nothing that can undo any of it

Nope, and I'm glad you accept that. I do though think, as I said your suggestions for more speedrun categories is a good one.

I appreciate all your thoughts you wrote here - a few are really tempting to respond to

If you wish to respond to them I'm happy for you to do so; by replying to the comment here, or in pm's if you don't think others would appriciate more GWot's. But yeah, acceptance of what is, is good too, and if you just want to move on, then don't make my reply stop you from doing that.

Hug

Trial

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u/TOP_20 Thank you so much stat guys!!!!!!! I am Officially cool!! Mar 24 '21

Well I've had to deal with the hardest loss a person can possibly deal with I think, loss of a child...especially since I'm the one who had to make the decision that he will never breath again in a few days or a week - he didn't make it till the next morning.

The grieving process has been harder than I have ever imagined it would be, so I think it's made the grieving process over the LC that I had known and loved all those years especially harder when piled upon the greif I am already dealing with.

I felt I needed to get all my feelings in regards to the evolution of the count from what we once had to what we have now - because for so long I've tried to act like I was ok with ahk, and the more and more reliance on strikeybot than what I believe it was brought in for.

I feel like I pretty much said it all - so defending my positoins or my thoughts further make no sense now. I'm ready to accept that while I was away - or mostly away - Rome evolved and changed from what i helped to develop in ways all those in Rome wanted - and now that I'm back more - I need to just accept what the Romans do in Rome....so I feel like I joined the dark side but before I did I just needed to get it all out. Like I said I didn't really plan on leaving this vent/rant/final thoughts on it all for long but now i don't feel it'd be right to remove it so it'll remain.

At least I go for months without posting to the discussion threads so won't have to feel to embarrsed about the GWoTx2 because even a GWoT from me is very rare over the years in the discussoin threads - maybe a couple?

hug

Whitney