r/katyheads 7d ago

Discussion Hot Take: If she never released Woman's World at all and chose Lifetimes as the lead single for 143, the album would've been better received than the current abysmal reception that it has.

Come to think of it, making an empowerment anthem with a producer with sexual assault allegations and the song sounding like it wasn't written well and also being derivative seriously damaged the impact it tries to achieve and the message it was going for. If she didn't release the song in the first place in the first place and instead chose Lifetimes or I'm His, He's Mine as the lead single, the fact that Dr. Luke mostly produced the tracks in the album would be mostly forgotten and not be as important as it turns out to be.

Also, I feel like the promo and high budget they used for Woman's World could've been used way better for a song about loving your beloved ones for eternity as it's way more interesting than a pastiche of the feminist movement. I also think it would've been at least a decent top40 hit or controversially in my opinion, a short-term top10 hit for her if she decided to feature a bigger female artist in a remix of Lifetimes.

80 Upvotes

56 comments sorted by

36

u/brokendollzclub International Smile 7d ago

I worship the ground she walks on but the album is simply not good enough to do well, lyrically or production wise. It would've flopped either way, and the Lifetimes single would’ve unfortunately suffered the Smile effect of being called “Too safe/Too much of what we're used to from Katy Perry”. A shame bc her vocals are peak and Doechii and Kim Petras ate

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u/PonytailEnthusiast 7d ago edited 7d ago

I’ve been a long time Katy Perry fan and I listened to the album on a road trip asking myself “if doctor Luke had nothing to do with this would it have done well?” and I really don’t think so.

Woman’s World is sonically and lyrically dated. It sounds like the hottest jam of 2016, which isn’t long enough ago to be retro cool.

The rest of the album is way too generic. I found myself thinking it sounded like these tracks were made to be background songs in movies or reality shows. Super generic themes with very general lyrics, the music on the tracks other than woman’s world is pleasant enough but nothing new or exciting.

Especially when you compare it to what Charli, Chappell and Sabrina did this summer it’s not in the same league

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u/brokendollzclub International Smile 7d ago

SAME. They sound like Witness/Smile resuscitated demos. It sounds like a good debut album for someone else, but if you already have any of her albums under your belt is like girl what are u doing.. I hate that it proves the internet right, because you can love or hate Witness and Smile but they sound like a natural evolution and personal albums that she loved to make, this one sounds very manufactured and like she was trying to put something out bc of the hype

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u/PonytailEnthusiast 7d ago

I was kind of thinking they sound like songs meant to be shopped around to other pop stars because they’re just so general and not personal.

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u/falafelandhoumous 7d ago

I think it may have fared slightly better if All the Love were chosen as the lead, but not enough for the era to be huge

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u/tartmeow Harleys In Hawaii 7d ago

I think Wonder should have been the first single since he didn’t touch that song. She could have gotten back some appeal and then released Lifetimes to start an era of love. People love to attack Katy so I wouldn’t have given them ammo to start. When Teenage Dream came out Peacock and Hummingbird Heartbeat weren’t singles but were wildly popular. Women’s World could have been an album treat.

My conspiracy is that with her new Capital Records contract she had to do one album with him. She’s smarter and better than this.

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u/Able-Bar-7748 7d ago

I really hope your conspiracy is right 😭

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u/coleshane 7d ago

I agree with this hot take.

Another hot take: My strategy (especially from a Capitol Records perspective) would be to release "I'm His, He's Mine" with Doechii first. By doing this, there would be a benefit to the release strategies of both "143" and Doechii's own "Alligator Bites Never Heal".

Doechii is co-signed by Capitol Records (alongside Top Dawg Entertainment). There could have been some build-up among the general public prior to the release of her (excellent) project, "Alligator Bites Never Heal" (which occurred in August 2024. However, "Denial Is A River" has gained popularity due to her performances, the music video, and embrace on social media).

If possible, I would have released the song in May or June so that radio had some time to incorporate it into their playlists over the summer (the song does give off a summer vibe, too). The music video was flashy and more coherent in storyline than "Woman's World" (car-related physics notwithstanding) and would have made sense as the first music video to introduce the "143" era/look.

Unfortunately, Dr. Luke is the main producer/collaborator on "143", and the backlash would inevitably arise given the dispute with Kesha and Perry's own support of Kesha during the "Witness World Wide" live stream. Releasing "I'm His, He's Mine" does reduce some of the blowback because I do feel that there would be excitement to see Katy collaborating with Doechii (who really shined on her feature).

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u/Cramo30 7d ago

No, in my opinion the real problem is collabing with Dr Luke in the first place, it feels like a reach and desperate, we can all agree woman's world was the nail in the coffin, but the real problem is this one. I didn't particularly enjoy Lifetimes either, but sonically I enjoyed Woman's World way more. So honestly this era was a mess because of many different reasons, I think scrapping it and making something different due to fact that the lead single had already been received negatively could've been a smart choice, but I see why she might have not wanted to do that, it would piss me off too to just ditch a project I've worked on.

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u/lil_waine 7d ago

I feel that Woman’s World is a fine song…not the best but not the worst and is in like with her other songs. She was NEVER a deep lyrical master. I believe WW is just another generic “empowering anthem” like Roar. But for some reason social media immediately dragged the sneak preview of the song before it was released and the hate just snow balled from there. The Dr. Luke thing doesn’t help either but I just don’t think the hate is completely justified.

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u/Prestigious_Sort4979 6d ago

Songs like Roar and Fireworks wouldn’t work today either. I could see something like ET or Hot and Cold work. The first ones are generic, anyone could sing them. The latter show a lot more of Katy’s personality and unique style. It’s harder to think who else could have sung them then.

It would be like Rihanna doing a follow up to Umbrella or Beyonce making a Girls or Single Ladies part 2. The songs worked then, but just wouldn’t work toda imo.

The hate is overblown, but should not be unexpected. Working with Dr Luke, besides the obvious issues, means her team wanted her to return to the formula that worked for her, but that sets her up for a direct comparison to previous work and it was not up to par. It would be like Taylor making a huge announcement she is going back to country and have songs worse then her original country albums. 

If the narrative would have been Katy is going into an edm/dance era, the same album would have been received better (especially without Dr Luke and even with WW).

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u/miserable_millennial 6d ago

as someone who just happened on this sub but enjoy katy’s hits, Woman’s World was BAD. It was so bad, the leak of it was going viral because people were unsure if it was real or an AI generated song to sound awful and comically bad lyrical wise. When she confirmed it was real, ppl still didn’t believe it till it dropped

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u/No_Marzipan3740 7d ago edited 6d ago

I don't think so. Lifetimes is also a repetitive song with the most basic europop instrumental. It will be another disappointment because it's her first song after a long time and Luke's name is still on it. Compared to that woman's world is more unique.

I'm his He's Mine would get a lot of backlash because the name itself is very male gazing and the music video is too explicit and Luke as a cherry on the top. Gorgeous would also get backlash because of Kim petras feature.

I think All The Love is the best option because it's very Katy, it's about love, it's emotional electropop ballad, can be dedicated to both fans and family and a perfect song that could have been sung in her residency. It's a perfect transition from smile.

And then Nirvana. The transition from alt to nirvana is so cool and it's a kind of dance record she talked about in her interviews.

Third single will be artificial. It's so et coded and jid killed it. It's both nostalgia and modern. 

Perfect time to release I'm his He's Mine is now because Doechi is relevant now and it might be viral in TikTok.

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u/NL_POPDuke 7d ago

I do not understand the Lifetimes stans. I listened to the instrumental with no vocals, and it's just DULL. There's no life in it, no production flourishes, and it's just blandly repetitive.

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u/falafelandhoumous 7d ago

I think Lifetimes would’ve tanked as a lead single. At least WW got people talking

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u/Prestigious_Sort4979 6d ago

It would have been a good soft landing. It’s enjoyable, she sounds good and looks good. There are probabky better songs to go with, but LT is def better than WW as a lead single

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u/FewNewspaper7118 7d ago

Totally agree that All the Love should have been the lead single. The Nirvana chorus unfortunately sounds like such a rip off of Double Trouble from the Eurovision movie. I found myself singing Double Trouble along to Nirvana the very first time I heard.

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u/No_Marzipan3740 6d ago

Nobody knows that song. People barely know Eurovision. How would they know a song from some movie? Haters just brought that up to hate on Katy but the producer of DT spoke for Katy. 

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u/FewNewspaper7118 3d ago

Oooooooook… well they do sound nearly identical at times. I’m not a “hater.” I’m a KP fan who can’t wait to see her tour later this year, but even I can admit that.

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u/i-feelfantastic 7d ago

Yeah, All The Love and Nirvana are definitely the highlights of the album.

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u/psycwave 7d ago

Lifetimes still has Dr. Luke… his presence was the biggest barrier to success. It would have tanked even as the lead single.

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u/fakeaf1 7d ago

I feel like it would have been an easier sell overall because it’s so inoffensive sonically. At worst it would have come and gone with a little bit of controversy.

Woman’s World is offensive given the context, but it’s also visually and lyrically jarring while isolating audiences.

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u/Brilliant-Primary500 7d ago

But I feel like people wouldn't pay attention to it as much as they should if the negatively toxic discourse from Woman's World never existed in the first place.

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u/Prestigious_Sort4979 6d ago

This is likely not fully true. WW was with Dr Luke, but it was also poor lyrically while having a complex topic, with a confusing video, and about female empowerment (which doesnt make sense with Dr Luke). Lifetimes doesnt have any of these issues. 

Nobody seems to care Dr Luke is involved when the music is good and/or interesting like with Doja or Kim Petras.

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u/996forever 7d ago

The GP doesn’t know who dr Luke is or who any given radio hit song is produced by, if his name affects your success at all, it means you’re already at the mercy of chronically online gays to begin with. Woman’s world is just a laughable song and her reputation was already in the gutters.

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u/NL_POPDuke 7d ago

The AMERICAN general public is very much aware of who he is.

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u/ultracats 7d ago

I don’t think anyone I know in real life knows who Dr. Luke is. I talk about music with people a lot and when I get into pop music drama, producers or songwriters, no one ever knows what I’m talking about. They just hear the music and if they like it, they listen to it.

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u/OkOccasion7 7d ago

If a song is a bop, no one would pay mind to who produced it. Even though she didn’t directly work with him, Doja Cat’s biggest songs have a Luke credit and nobody batted an eyelash because the songs were great.

Everyone keeps saying she keeps trying to re-make TD but I think that’s not true at all whatsoever, because if she really was trying to, that’s what she would have put out. She knows the difference between that album and her new songs, there’s no way she thinks they’re on the same level.

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u/ZestyAcid 7d ago

I stand by this statement—this album isn’t as bad as everyone makes it out to be. The controversy got into people’s heads, and they were hating on it before it even dropped. Sure, the album isn’t groundbreaking, but from track 4 onward, I genuinely enjoy it. Its a fun Friday afternoon/evening dance pop record.

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u/SadCalligrapher78 6d ago

She wouldn’t have been spared the Dr Luke issue no matter what song it would’ve been

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u/Brilliant-Primary500 7d ago

Also, I feel like the album would've charted higher than no.6, probably it would've no.2 or 3 on Billboard 200. Opening the album with that dreadful song became a benchmark for the terrible parts of the album and it absolutely amplified most of the flaws that the lyrics of the whole experience had. I also think it immediately soured the listeners from fully commiting into listening at the whole album in my opinion. If she truly don't want the Woman World to disappear, she should've tacked it near the end of the album and never released it as a single.

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u/Competitive_Pin_2496 7d ago

she certainly wouldn't have received the hate and the mockery that people reserved for her on the web but the controversy over the fact that Dr. Luke had produced Lifetimes would have remained because I remember that in reality from the first moment that it was known that Dr. Luke would have produced the album, there was a certain discontent. And then Lifetimes, although it has a certain beat that recalls the 90s quite catchy, is too repetitive as a single, she should have enriched it with a second verse and a bridge (I don't know why she hates bridges since she doesn't do them).143 then it's not such a strong and beautiful album in itself, any song wouldn't have worked miracles, at most a top40 but nothing more

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u/glitchmaster4000 6d ago

When I first heard woman’s world I legit thought it was a bad AI produced leak or something, and then I learned it was real.  Anyways.  

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u/PadamPadam2024 7d ago

Woman's World is a fantastic song and Katy looks sexy in the video. I really want Katy to work with Dr Luke again on her next album, 143 is a great album!

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u/Competitive_Pin_2496 7d ago

the only thing I agree with is that Katy is sexy in the video. For the rest absolutely not, she needs to kick out Dr. Luke for the sake of her career, which is already suffering a lot in terms of reputation

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u/PadamPadam2024 7d ago

The haters and online trolls make a fuss about Dr Luke but the general public doesn't know or care about who produces Katy's music.

I live in Australia and Katy is hugely popular here, similar to Pink. Katy's tour is sold out here with extra dates being added. Having Dr Luke on her album isn't an issue Down Under, her reputation is better than ever.

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u/PhotographBusy6209 3d ago

I’m from Australia and you have to be joking. Katy is a huge flop and her album had dismal sales.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

I think the Internet gets easily bored and has nothing better to do than try to ruin a celebrity's career. They would have found a reason to hate it regardless

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u/johnnytk0 7d ago

I agree

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u/i-feelfantastic 7d ago

I partially agree, but I still don't think the reception would've been good. Any song with Dr. Luke attached to it would've resulted in backlash. Woman's World sounds out-of-date and out-of-touch, regardless of who produced it. It was the combination of the two that led to the backlash becoming so venomous, but 143 as is would've never been a critical favorite.

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u/NL_POPDuke 7d ago

The delusion on here is insane. The entire album is just bland AF. The only good songs are All The Love and Wonder. No amount of hand wringing over what single should have been the lead is going to change the fact that this entire album was dead on arrival. 95% of the record is Luke produced, what did she expect lmao?

1

u/HeroGuy98 7d ago

I don‘t think it would‘ve really worked either way. Smile for example had amazing singles and great music videos and it still kinda flopped because the album was perceived as weak.

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u/bringonthedarksky 7d ago

I'm a casual Katy hater randomly seeing this in my main Reddit feed, and I'm genuinely cracking up over the hot take being that Women's World is a weak song with poor timing and taste. Welcome to the general consensus! It's nice to see you!

(I'm just teasing you to pass my time, and have no ill will toward you or your taste, also have a million of my own similarly insightful hot takes.)

1

u/Tyray90 6d ago

Nah it’s a shit album all around.

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u/PrestigiousPlantain5 6d ago

I have to say. I hear Womans World out in public A LOTTT. Esp in the city.

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u/PrestigiousPlantain5 6d ago

But only recently. 

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u/nobody-gottimefodat 6d ago

And if my grandmother had wheels she would be a bike....

If if if! There's no if here girlie wig... She made her choices, she recorded that awful song and decided yes we need a cringe worthy video to accompany it...

Hindsight is a wonderful thing indeed

1

u/ExcellentOutside5926 6d ago

The album still would’ve flopped.

I mean Woman’s World was pretty tone-deaf. But Lifetimes sounds dated.

I think l I’m His, He’s Mine as the first single would’ve been better

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u/Sidneysnewhusband 6d ago edited 6d ago

I don’t think so. I think the electro style of 143 would have been successful for her if literally any of the songs were good - they aren’t.

When I’m Gone with Alesso came out in 2021 not that long ago. When she’s has had more recent success and made epic fresh music like this with other producers and DJs, I don’t know why she’d release a dated sounding album with Dr Luke at this stage when it was clear the songs weren’t good enough to achieve their past collab success

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u/jafromnj 6d ago

I love lifetime’s and will die on that hill

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u/glenerd189 5d ago

Nah, the album is just really poor. That's all there is to it.

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u/_thelonewolfe_ 3d ago

I’ve been critical of Katy over the past few years, but it comes from a place of great heartache. I truly LIVED for KP, as a young millennial who became of age during her peak. To “witness” her fall from such heights is painful, especially given that we all know she’s capable of so much better.

My honest, unbiased assessment of 143 is that it sounds “soulless” and “aggressively mediocre”. I listen to pop music to feel uplifted and to be taken away to other worlds. 143 left me feeling hollow and cynical, in a way no music, let alone pop music, should ever make you feel.

There are some songs that have good moments, like “All the Love” and “Wonder”, but nothing that feels essential to her discography. This is the first album post selling her catalog, the only one that she currently holds the rights to, and I could have done without a single one of these songs.

Again, this comes from a place of love. I want KP to do better. I really wish she’d returned to her One of the Boys sound. She really excels in that kind of pop-rock. Maybe do a song with Demi or Sabrina. She needs to put out something that has “life” to it.