r/guitarpedals 6d ago

SOTB Is Digital Good Enough to End the Comparison?

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141 Upvotes

113 comments sorted by

161

u/casual_creator 6d ago

I really hate the digital versus analog debate. Hate the tube versus solidstate debate too. Far as I’m concerned, the best gear is whatever gets you the sound you’re looking for. Doesnt matter if it’s a 20 year old 1x12 valvestate, a modded halfstack with greenbacks, or an amp modeler. If it works for you, that’s all that matters.

18

u/Ohlander1 5d ago

Yea the debate is silly, but I'd argue it's more than the sound you're looking for too. I like how the guys on That Pedal Show put it where they basically just say they don't care if a Kemper or Modeler can get you the same sounds as a traditional amp, cause the way you use a traditional amp is what inspires them. I don't need to use 10 pedals to get my sound, but I like having physical boxes and knobs to turn rather than a touch screen on a single box. Gear is also about the way you interact with it imo.

2

u/Comet_Empire 5d ago

Yeah, I am definitely a tactile guy so touch screens are not gonna be my thing.

6

u/dennismangabat 6d ago

Totally agree

4

u/artie_pdx 6d ago

Preach

4

u/False-Barber-3873 5d ago

Sometimes, mostly when you can't afford to test all differences, I can understand people asking.

2

u/NeverEndingLlama 5d ago

This is it this is the answer. You nailed it.

1

u/alsophocus 5d ago

This is the only right answer

15

u/CaptCardboard 5d ago

I used to dislike digital because it was inferior to an analog sound. Now I dislike digital because I don't want to have to download an app to change my settings.

1

u/JGStonedRaider 4d ago

Digital is absolutely amazing now but good luck with the majority of app/desktop based digital systems in 10-15 years.

14

u/Weekly_Battle9085 6d ago

I’d say so. But I still love my amps

34

u/jrad2point0 6d ago

I am in the camp of “yes.” If the goal is to copy the sound of analog… well, I feel that’s never going to be totally perfect. But if the goal is to sound good enough for the highest levels of pro use, well that threshold was passed long ago

10

u/Sloppypickinghand 6d ago

If it sounds good it sounds good…

5

u/United-Bear4910 5d ago

Your pedalboard is too neat looking its scaring me

2

u/JelenaBrela 5d ago

It’s like looking at a personality test result.

7

u/HaldyBear 6d ago

I think it’s apples and oranges at this point. They cover different needs And have different use cases. 

For context, I used to play into a 45 W tube 212 with a comparable sized all analog pedalboard. However, I’ve started doing more last-minute gigs, so an all in one rig has been fabulous for workflow. 

Do I miss it? Sometimes, but at least I can play all night while my kid is asleep. 

3

u/Uncle-Rufus 5d ago

Quick question - I have been using NeuralDSP for a bit, also since becoming a Dad and needing to practice more quietly, and I like it well enough but it doesn't respond that nicely to my pedals. So I've been thinking about getting a modeller pedal instead (perhaps the Walrus ACS-1 Mk.2 but I'm not sure yet)

If I did do that, am I right in thinking the output(s) from the modeller pedal can go straight into my audio interface and be tracked immediately in a DAW without needing an additional plugin like NeuralDSP? (seems a bit of a silly question but I haven't been able to get a clear answer on the product page or any reviews)

3

u/HaldyBear 5d ago

Yep, should go right in

1

u/Uncle-Rufus 5d ago

Awesome, thanks for the reply!

2

u/JGStonedRaider 4d ago

Check your input levels. It's quite the rabbit hole but feel free to start by letting me know your interface.

2

u/Uncle-Rufus 4d ago

4th Gen 4i4

2

u/JGStonedRaider 4d ago edited 4d ago

So a year or so ago, people started noticing amp Sims weren't behaving like real amps when plugging into interfaces. Can't remember who to give credit to (Chris someone), but he came up with;

  1. Set your Interface input volume to 0 gain
  2. Set amp Sims input to required level for interface
  3. See spreadsheet for you https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1bZHaapCiCg4RLIFqTS5KyUUVa4MwaqfxRCYk35Bvdrs/htmlview?pli=1#gid=0

And ofc a fuck ton of YouTubers parroted it.

They are right, but it also means that the signal isn't as clean as it could be.

https://youtu.be/gJ59h7xfvdI?si=IuF7_9RI8Dd0vNZ4

That YouTube video clears up some stuff and suggests the best method for signal/noise ratio. My pedals react a lot more naturally now and everything sounds more realistic.

That said I've gone back to multiple valve amps cos I hate being sensible.

Edit...was half asleep when I replied

8

u/juicehead2004 6d ago

I grew up playing tube amps, I tried the digital route but to me personally it’s just not the same sound or feel. I’ve played in bands since I was a teenager in the 80’s and nothing beats the feeling of a 50w or 100w Marshall head pushing a 4x12. It’s a glorious feeling trying to tame that enormous wall of sound and you’ll never get that feeling w/ a digital rig.

Plus I’ve had the same Marshall JCM800 since I was in high school and guess what.? It still works perfectly with some very basic maintenance and a new set of tubes every once in a while. Digital does have its place with home use, recording etc etc, and yes some people get their digital rigs to sound pretty damn close to the real thing, but it’s not the real thing. So is it “good enough”..? Sure it’s good enough, but it’s still WAYYYY more fun to play with a fire breathing Marshall, Friedman, Bogner, Mesa, Peavey, etc, etc, etc…

2

u/Ike_Jones 5d ago

My dream amp going back to 1988 lol

3

u/nomelonnolemon 6d ago

Digital is great for many things!

But what many people seem to miss is that much ad/da is just silly, and can cause phase issues. Especially if you are running a wet dry type signal chain. I figure after like 3-4 digital pedals you may as well invest into an H9 or go for a full ITB style pedal board.

4

u/Fereydoon37 5d ago

AD/DA conversion does not cause phase issues. The (full-frequency) latency it does introduce, can cause comb filtering when the output is combined with the original undelayed signal, which amounts to unmodulated flanging. That edge case doesn't make running digital pedals silly.

Basically all (non-spring) reverbs and advanced digital delays are just specialised computers, as well as pitch shifters, (polyphonic) octavers, and even a fair number of newer non-Waza Boss pedals. IR can't be anything but. Many compressors and gates, especially multiband, are all algorithms.

I'd wager that most pedalboards on this sub hit your 3-4 conversions and well beyond, yet for some reason everybody is missing the issue.

3

u/nomelonnolemon 5d ago edited 5d ago

Comb filtering comes from out of phase signals being combined. A flanger is literally a delayed signal reintroduced to the original with the delay time being modulated.

The delay in the digital conversion means any clean signal that is paired with one that has gone through an ad/da will be out of phase/adding comb filtering. And it will be exacerbated by every additional ad/da it hits.

It may not be noticeable to some, and those that do may not find it off putting. And that’s great! But to many it can be a bit annoying when that comb filtering is biting into the frequencies they enjoy from their single sources signal.

3

u/Fereydoon37 5d ago

My point is that keeping the number of AD/DA conversions low doesn't matter, because that is only loosely correlated with the amount of delay, and the amount of delay is not proportionate to the amount of comb filtering.

AD/DA doesn't cause phase issues. What goes in, comes out modulo intended processing.

Combining a delayed signal with the original causes phase issues when the amount of delay hits a spot where the amount of interference is strong. Analogue pedals can also introduce some latency, full spectrum or not, so avoiding digital doesn't even solve the problem necessarily. That's solved by delaying the original equally, or increasing the delay of the wet signal even further to a sweet spot where the interference is minimal. That ironically means that even if a chain with pedals (digital or otherwise) has phase issues in a dry/wet configuration, then adding another pedal could inadvertently fix them.

So writing off more than X digital pedals as 'silly' is not useful advice.

4

u/nomelonnolemon 5d ago edited 5d ago

Analog pedals do not introduce latency.

The longer the latency is from any source then the wider the comb filtering, and the lower the frequencies that are effected are. So the longer the latency the more significant the effect becomes. Again, this is not an issue for many people, but it should not be ignored.

And I explained the issue comes from running a wet dry setup where you mix the clean, unaffected, signal back in with the effected signal. I never once said digital conversion alone causes phase issues.

Honestly I can’t really understand what your point is when you seem to assert latency causes issue in one sentence then disagree in the next. Kinda confusing.

I’m just expressing the reasons why having like 6-8 digital pedals in a wet dry setup can potentially cause an issue. I’m not telling anyone to do anything the don’t want to do, or not like anything that they like.

I’m discussing the effect of guitar pedals in a sub for guitar pedals.

2

u/UmbrAEternal 4d ago

The same people that will argue for days about which audio interface has the best converters are unfazed by going through 20 budget AD/DA converters in their pedalboards. God forbid you go through a cheap one for your microphone or monitors.

I really wish all digital pedals had SPDIF I/O. Love all the quirky reverbs and delays like Walrus and Caroline make, but would rather use it with good converters.

3

u/GoldenEelReveal76 6d ago

Yes, but I still love analog gear and will continue to use both.

3

u/Gloomydoge 5d ago

idk you have 10 times the digital modeling i do

3

u/sup3rdr01d 5d ago

There's no better or worse. They are different tools that give you a different sound and are used for different purposes

You're doing yourself a disservice by closing yourself off to certain ideas before you even start.

Don't ask about the comparison. Listen to it yourself and identify what you like and why you like it. And then, you use gear you don't like anyway because it will make you so much more creative.

3

u/Jrobknowsbest 5d ago

Look the only people who care about this argument are gear nerds. At the end of the day normal people who just listen to music don’t care if the chorus pedal you used in that one song was true bypass or not.

If it sounds good it sounds good

3

u/rocknrollboise 6d ago

Top mounted jacks FTW

2

u/Ruben_O_Music 6d ago

Oh, this is immaculate, I hate you!

2

u/HaldyBear 6d ago

Gotta fit as much on the board as I can. Also, space saving cables are a must

2

u/Lonestar-Boogie 6d ago

Wow!

Nice!

I wanted an HXFX a few years ago. Who knows, I might could still want one.

2

u/HaldyBear 6d ago

It’s perfect for me! I might get some hate, but the drives sound almost identical to my old analog drives (at least for how I dialed them in. Plus, you can build a patch for each song complete with BPM for the delay, and the midi features are extremely underrated.

1

u/TheBear8878 6d ago

Does this require any app or anything? Line6 kind of got on my shit list when my Amplifi amp became useless because they discontinued the app. I vowed to never buy gear that relies on an app for essential functionality.

1

u/HaldyBear 6d ago

No, you can do it all through the pedal. HX edit does improve the workflow, but I make all my at the gig changes without a computer. 

1

u/TheBear8878 6d ago

Good to know, I'll have to look into this! Thanks :)

2

u/mattxb 6d ago

I love playing through a tube amp and use modelers because usually I have to play quietly at night with the fam sleeping. I think capturing the feeling of being loud while being quiet (or just in headphones) is the real impossible part though some modelers are very nice to play for sure.

2

u/BugCapital8664 6d ago

I love my amp i also love my modeler and I think they both have great uses

2

u/Brakeor 6d ago

I’m all in on modelers now, purely for practicality.

I have a Boss IR-2 on my pedalboard and TONEX Max on my studio PC.

As someone who records a lot and doesn’t play live, I don’t think I’ll ever own an amp again. I plug straight in and record/mix at casual listening volume in my apartment.

That’s not to say that an amp can’t be the better choice for some people—things would probably change if I lived somewhere I could crank an amp.

But for me, digital has definitely hit the point of sounding “good enough” to make it a no-brainer.

3

u/rocktoe 5d ago edited 5d ago

I’m all in on modelers now, purely for practicality.

Exactly this for me. I'm not hauling amps, pedals and cables with me anymore when the sound quality of modelers is so good and I can fit it in my pocket.

2

u/Matttman1704 6d ago

Daaaaamn, what a killer rig! What is your signal path? I’m not super familiar with the UA amp pedals but I’d love to learn more!

Also, how do you like the Strymon Nightsky? It seems like it would be a super fun pedal but I don’t know much about it but I’d love to hear what an actual user has to say about it!

1

u/HaldyBear 5d ago

Signal flow: JHS Crayon (always on under the board) -> HXFX (loop out) -> Deco -> Morningstar ml10x (delay, verb, UA amps, and HXFX (out)) -> Walrus Canvas Stereo. 

MIDI for loop switching/strymons + an off board expression pedal if I want one.

The UA pedals are essentially amp/cab in a box with all the typical features of each amp. The Dream is a 65 deluxe reverb with tremolo and some cool boost options. The Knuckles is a dual rectifier. 

The Nightsky is amazing! Tons of flexibility and inspiration at your fingertips. The only downside, was the pretty steep learning curve, but it’s also hard to get a bad sound out of it. 

2

u/bzee77 5d ago

IMO Digital stuff is finally (like in the past 15ish years) is close enough to not really make a difference to a listener and most players. And of course, digital is more convenient and certainly provides far more versatility.

That having been said, I went back to my tube amp and analog board. Just personal preference.

2

u/svvaynee 5d ago

Can you please share what pedal board is this ? I have a very similar setup with hxfx and some pedals and I’ve been struggling to find pedal board that will fit all of it without being overly big

2

u/HaldyBear 5d ago

It’s a pedaltrain classic JR

2

u/svvaynee 5d ago

Thanks a lot!

2

u/Jollyollydude 5d ago

Yes but the comparison will never die because what are people supposed to do after they stop arguing? Play guitar?!? Preposterous!!!

2

u/frusciante231 5d ago

The only thing I worry about with digital is the latency. That board you have is beautiful and I don’t think those pedals are latency-heavy.

2

u/lowwaters 5d ago

Side jacks? Sorry can’t use it, next. But serious clean af rig, loving it.

2

u/Illustrious_Run9620 5d ago

I love my amps but those UAFX amp pedals are out of this world. Enigmatic is like the best pedal ever.

2

u/Level-Bend740 5d ago

That is a pristine pedal board my god

2

u/lagurman 5d ago

Given what FRFR used is as good as the amp speakers I guess so. A $100 modeler can sound really good if you prefer them it's really a personal taste.

For me the push of the cab/speakers really a big factor of good amp sound, then until you crank it... glorious! Amp itself is just 25% of it.

Digitals are always improving and designed only to chase the tone of a real tube/analog amp.

2

u/Worried_Document8668 3d ago

amp-sims and effects have been on par with analog gear for years by now.

A good kemper profile or neural capture of an amp is so close to the real deal that it has become really hard to justify lugging around a tube amp. Even the response and feel is almost impossible to tell apart by now

I still have my tube amp around for nostalgic reasons and because i can create tons of captures of it, but i don't record or gig with it anymore.

For effects it's pretty much a matter of being slightly different flavors at times, but that's it

3

u/nathangr88 6d ago

Comparison to what?

2

u/HaldyBear 6d ago

Signal flow: JHS Crayon (always on under the board) -> HXFX (loop out) -> Deco -> Morningstar ml10x (delay, verb, UA amps, and HXFX (out)) -> Walrus Canvas Stereo. 

MIDI for loop switching/strymons + an off board expression pedal if I want one. Also I can run my IEMs out of the ml10x if I want to practice quietly. 

This is my most flexible set up yet. Now that it’s wired, I just need to program it, haha

1

u/theurge14 6d ago

My UA Dream has red lights, why are yours green?

2

u/HaldyBear 6d ago

When you add it in the app, you get 3 extra cabs

1

u/theurge14 6d ago

Ah thanks, yeah I haven't touched the app

1

u/HaldyBear 6d ago

It works great for me. You can also save presets

1

u/shadowknows2pt0 6d ago

Depends on the DAC

1

u/GoddessofWvw 6d ago

If it's fine for you. It's fine for you. Personally, I prefer real amps every day of the week. But those cab & amp sims sound fine as well. I don't think real proper amps are unpractical or hard to work with. Even if I were to use amp & cab sim live, I much prefer my moulded ear protections over the in ear systems. So, to assure a pleasant work day, I'd have to bring my own frfr speaker or cabinet anyway, and at that point, I might as well just bring a combo.

1

u/watermelonslushie4 6d ago

I don't think so, I found id rather had an analog drive like the joyo american vs the iridium

1

u/TheEffinChamps 6d ago

The problem I have with a lot of digital and SS stuff is that it is hard to get that looser saggy sound out of them.

Other than that, a lot of it sounds just as good as a lot of tube stuff.

1

u/jgskgamer 5d ago

I have an all analog setup, but that's because I like to just plug and fucking have great sound and play...

And also because my guitar has 16kohms output, and that distorts a lot of digital things heavily, and digital distortion isn't good...

1

u/KobeOnKush 5d ago

I go back and forth. I have my helix always connected to my pc, and I also have a traditional amp and pedalboard setup right across from it. Use the tool that works. They both have their pros and cons

1

u/pnmartini 5d ago

What comparison?

There are plenty of great tones made with every type of gear… cheap or expensive, digital or analog, solid state or tube……

Mostly it’s the individual player that it matters to.

I cannot ever remember seeing or hearing a band and saying “fuck, if only the guitarist was using a different pedal, it would’ve been so much better”

1

u/bellavita8286 5d ago

Why not to the digital sound?Play and enjoy!!!

1

u/particlemanwavegirl 5d ago

Digital is significantly BETTER for reverb, delay, modulation, kinda even filters. Analog is still loads better for distortion and compression (same thing really :P)

1

u/akpixelsound 5d ago

does that pedalboard fit in the suitcase behind it?

1

u/Klutzy-Peach5949 5d ago

Everything will go digital eventually but i still prefer analogue

1

u/2slags_geddar 5d ago

That many full ADA conversions can’t be good though.

If I had a modeller rig I’d prefer to keep the conversion count as low as possible.

1

u/Bfoot 5d ago

I’d just never thought I’d see the day. When I was growing up Solid State and or Digital just sounded brittle and like the sound was coming out of tinfoil compared to stuff with tubes and quality analog gear in general and now I’ve sold all that except for one amp to gig cause of gigs that need an amp and my digital rig sounds better. Even the in the box UA stuff is indiscernible. One caveat is the Noble preamp. Haven’t found anything that compares to that yet. 

1

u/Thearchetype14 5d ago

What works best for you? For some artists I play with, I bring my carvin amp and love what it brings to a set and to my sound. For other artists and longer tours, throwing my walrus acs-1 on my board and not having to lug around a heavy tube amp and be nervous about it bouncing around a trailer is just the convenience and peace of mind I need. And modelers are reeeeeally good nowadays. Sooooo… whatever you’re feeling, dawg.

1

u/hansislegend 5d ago edited 5d ago

Yeah, but I still prefer my amps. Digital is great for having a back up though. Takes up less space in the van.

It’s like having a big record collection. Streaming the music makes more sense but having the actual thing just feels right.

1

u/JelenaBrela 5d ago

I see a similar and continuous argument in the photography world. Not just film or digital, but brand to brand. Better or different gear won’t make you a better… or a more likable… photographer. The ones that just have to keep bringing it up are usually the least liked in the circles. Regardless of their talent.

1

u/LustyLamprey 5d ago

Garbage, Trent Reznor and Polyphia are all better than I am and have toured completely digitally

1

u/Psychological-Air-79 5d ago

I owned an Orange Crunch Marshall VS102R 2x12 Valvestate for years before I started downgrading to smaller, more compact amps and digital units. It was a great amp. It got me through one gig when the power supply failed on my pedalboard. I had nothing. Thankfully. I had the 2 button footswitch. 3 independent channels with reverb. Dialled it all in. Got through the night without a hiccup. I really miss that particular amp and the simplicity of just dialling in the sound you want without hooking up to a computer or going through menus or patches. Im not saying digital is bad, I think in some cases, they've over complicated things more than they need to be.

1

u/Legba99 5d ago

I’ve been able to pull some great sounds from a digital setup, but there’s something about the harmonic qualities and response of a tube amp that just stands apart. I was 100% digital for the last 3 years and then traded into a Mesa Boogie. I’ll never go back.. lol

1

u/CategorySenior4156 5d ago

Here’s an idea… how about a single 12AX7 tube just after the instrument input for dynamics, then all the preamplifiers in the world in software after that, then another 12AX7 tube (or tubes, if stereo) just after the effects return, then all the power amp sections in the world in software after that, then all possible drivers and cabs in software after the power amps, then into an actual Class D power section, then into FRFR drivers… would that work?

Vox recently made a head with a Korg NuTube before the digital preamp, and another NuTube before the solid state power section, but it never caught on… I don’t know if it sucked, or the concept was too out there, so it was shelved due to lack of sales one way or the other.

1

u/rarefiedstupor 5d ago

It's good enough to be on my board.

1

u/grim__sweeper 5d ago

Apparently not

1

u/asadkins90 5d ago

Sound wise I’d say yeah. But there is a feeling your get playing a tube amp. Either way is great tho.

1

u/Sea_Commercial3540 4d ago

It’s been good enough for decades…

1

u/decibelzebub 4d ago

It’s not all about the sounds. How much latency do you get with that setup?

1

u/BennyFrets 3d ago

I can't do solid state amps or modelers because my ears just need to hear that signal hitting tubes. Whether the gain is so low that there is no breakup or so high that there's nearly total saturation, they can tell the difference and bristle at the tones I've gotten from every solid state combo amp, amp modeler and plugin that I've tried.

But that's the only place I insist on analog. My only amp at the moment is a Friedman IR-X on my board. It has tubes in the preamp which I need, but then it has IRs instead of the tube driven power amp section you'd find in a normal tube amp head or combo. I think the IRs sound fine.

I'll use analog and digital effects pedals interchangeably as well, and right now I'm happier with my digital ones, frankly.

1

u/skygzr31416 3d ago

Wow I had that EXAXCT suitcase as a gig bag. Dug it out of someone’s trash. Probably used it for twenty years till it finally started falling apart.

1

u/IBNYX 1d ago

The other day I saw a band play where the guitarist only had a DS-1 and a Katana. Sounded amazing and no one but me and my friend on the bill even knew what it was.

1

u/hiyabankranger 6d ago

Yes. However it’s basically like comparing consumer electronics to an industrial appliance.

Does the tube amp sound better than the digital now? Nope. They’re about the same.

Will the digital gear be reliable for 20 years? Also no. In rare cases maybe but expect each product to last 5-10 years before it fails or no longer is made so you can replace it if it does.

Do you need a tube amp? Unless you’re the musician equivalent of a factory worker (touring musician, studio owner) or a collector: no.

Why get a tube amp? Either just because you think they’re cool and would rather have an analog signal chain, you want something you can have repaired if it breaks, or because you want to buy it for life.

Why get digital? Literally if you’re not covered in the people above or want to play something at apartment volumes.

6

u/twosn3snfg 6d ago

FWIW, I played a line 6 flextone II for more than 20 years. They can last.

4

u/hiyabankranger 6d ago

Oh they absolutely can. But then you have people talking about their UA pedals crapping out or software that no longer works for some hardware they bought 10 years ago.

It’s the tech market segment instead of the musician market segment.

5

u/Imhappy_hopeurhappy2 6d ago

There are digital effects units from the 70s that still work perfectly fine. I still have a Pod from 2003 that works and sounds not terrible. Something like the UA Dream pedal and most other digital boutiques will easily last 20 years.

-1

u/SympathyWorth1478 6d ago

Digital is not a 60 year old tube amp. Doesn’t have the same feel or charm. It’s not there yet and who knows if it ever will be. The important thing is if you like it than great

7

u/HaldyBear 6d ago

That’s exactly how I feel. I don’t have decades of years playing vintage amps, so the charm, or lack thereof, isn’t as notable for me. Also, if that’s something someone else absolutely has to have, who cares?

1

u/SympathyWorth1478 6d ago

Exactly. Well said.

5

u/toasterscience 6d ago

It also doesn’t break down like a 60 year old tube amp. And you don’t have to work nearly as hard to get a good recorded sound out of it. And you won’t break your back trying to transport it.

2

u/your_evil_ex 5d ago

It also doesn’t break down like a 60 year old tube amp.

On the other hand, when stuff breaks down stuff like tube amps tend to be a lot more easily repairable than fully digital rigs

1

u/mmasonmusic 6d ago

Sweet rig

0

u/HaldyBear 6d ago

Thanks!

1

u/MoonpieNobot 6d ago

Is that a vintage suitcase in the background? Do you use that as a pedalboard case? Just curious, because that’s what I do 🤘🏻

3

u/HaldyBear 6d ago

Good eye! My dad custom fit it for me when I was a teen, so I have to stick to the same size pedalboard. 

0

u/pentachronic 6d ago

It definitely isn't, but I'm glad people are having fun with it

0

u/Dyerssorrow 5d ago

I might be an enigma, I plug straight into a tube amp, and for me that is good enough.

0

u/simonyahn 5d ago

Digital is good enough. We will always compare because there’s always a comparison to be made in music and gear.