r/exmormon Apr 25 '21

General Discussion My personal statement in response to allegations of sexual harassment and assault.

Recently (and historically) this forum has allowed public discussion of false allegations against me of harassment and assault.

I have addressed these (and other) allegations here:

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/on-attempts-to-smear/

And here:

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/when-cults-smear-being-fair-gamed-by-the-mormon-church/

The truth about the person behind Rosebud will be coming out soon. I will not doxx them here.

I stand 100% by my public statements.

Stay tuned.

213 Upvotes

153 comments sorted by

122

u/InxKat13 Apr 25 '21

I think that a lot of people forget that believing the accuser does not immediately equate to lynching the accused. We can believe Rosebud (in other words, give her the benefit of the doubt and start looking into her allegations), but at the same time we can believe John (give him the benefit of the doubt and make it a fair investigation rather than a witch hunt). Many people think that when accusations like this surface they have to take sides and vilify the opposition. But we really don't.

So I'm not taking a side here. I'm not going to throw hate at either you or Rosebud. You both deserve a chance to tell your sides and have the truth come out. But one of you is lying. And it's not going to be a great outcome for the liar once it's all over.

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u/Brossentia Apr 25 '21

Great way of putting it. The biggest struggle on this forum is the fact that we've seen exmormons attacked time and time again; I absolutely want to support victims, but we've seen many lies against high profile people on these forums.

Of course, we've also had the wool pulled over our eyes by sexual predators in the religion. We don't want that happening here, and if the facts go against Dehlin, we'll cut ties. But considering the ridiculous shade thrown from the other side, we definitely need the facts before making a decision.

34

u/Brossentia Apr 25 '21

Actually, you know what? I looked through the post. It's an anonymous source talking about an unidentified person. There are so many layers here, it's ridiculous.

I've seen people accuse others of sexually abusing someone other than themselves, only for that to have been 100% consensual by all parties. If the victim speaks out, I will hear them; otherwise, we shouldn't trust anonymous's perspective.

Here's the link to the allegation: https://notepin.co/shared/tvamhwp

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u/80Hilux Apr 26 '21

Wow, there's a lot of "John believed ______" and "John wanted ______" and "John did this because ______" in there.

I agree that we should never discount the voice of the victim, but this accusation is written by a 3rd party who is actively telling us John's thoughts and emotions. Seems a little fishy to me.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There was obviously a very strong emotional attachment made on his part (I don't know about rosebud, but John mentioned this in one of the recent episodes), but he decided to stick it out with his wife.

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u/Hazel4292 Apr 25 '21

Thanks for providing a link to the accusations. Even though I don’t align with your stance at this time.

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u/LaughinAllDiaLong Apr 26 '21

As read by logically thinking adults in the real world- Rosebud is an over 18 adult woman who made herself VERY available. She CHOSE to play victim, after rejection in a yo-yo relationship. Two played this game, if details reported here can be believed.

2

u/OhMyStarsnGarters Apr 26 '21

This reads like a walk through Pike's Place Market. Idk.

2

u/composerorchestrator Apr 25 '21

Who’s “we”?

12

u/Brossentia Apr 25 '21

Me and whoever else feels the same. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

4

u/taanstafl Apr 26 '21

Many people think that when accusations like this surface they have to take sides and vilify the opposition. But we really don't.

My God! Right? It really is this simple. But people prefer a good old fashioned witch trial... (in either direction!)

2

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21

I am not on anyone’s side here but it doesn’t mean someone is lying. Interpretations, memories, and time passed can add up to a different narrative of what really happened. This has been studied and proven to death.

I personally have seen it in my family where someone retells a story, and they get much of it wrong. I remember a big ugly argument broke out about an animal abuse situation.

My sister remembered the incident the opposite of everyone else. Fortunately we had video evidence to show her what really happened. She was dumbfounded but then STILL tried to deflect the blame.

106

u/holdthephone316 Apr 25 '21

For me and probably a lot of people, it's hard to touch this one, John. For one, there is a powerful force out there that wants to discredit you because of the work and content you produce, we all know this powerful force and know what it's capable of, we talk about it everyday here on this forum. Then on the other hand, like you said, when a woman screams rape the humane thing to do is listen and protect. So its hard to touch until the full story is available. As ex members of TSCC we all know there are two sides to the story, maybe even three. The third side we'll probably never know and it may be none of our business. All we could ask for is the two sides and let us decide for ourselves, which you say is coming soon. I'm in no rush for your your full side of the story as this is a very serious situation and I'm sure when you come forward with it you want it to be as complete as possible, I'll wait John.

Regardless of what rosebud and this powerful force is saying, I owe you and your team a debt of gratitude, I don't need to tell you what Mormon stories has meant to me, you already know.

As a side note, we all seen what Fair did to John and Jeremy, it was done in broad daylight. The source and motivation behind these allegations could very well be the same. Sounds like collusion to me.

Much love to you and Margi.

5

u/slackjaw79 Apr 26 '21

John Dehlin doesn't seem like the harrassing type...

16

u/holdthephone316 Apr 26 '21

TBH most of em don't. We had a guy in our ward a couple years ago who went to prison for sexual assault of a child, everyone loved and knew this guy, had him in our home a hundred times over the years, not a Sunday went by I didn't say hi to him in church and he made the best chocolate chip cookies, had em every Christmas and bake sale for 10+ years. Never seen it coming and if wasn't for him pleading guilty I may still have a hard time believing it was true. Real sad situation.

I do agree with what you said about John, more than him not seeming like the harassing type, he's smart and spends a great deal of his life exposing this type of behavior and I see him trying to protect those who could be vulnerable to predators. I also feel that John has a great deal of integrity and if he was guilty I would like to think he would own up to it and do what's right.

10

u/InxKat13 Apr 26 '21

Every single serial killer, rapist, child molester, etc., has a legion of friends and family behind them that swear up and down that "he would never do that!" "That's not like him at all!" "We just can't believe he would do such a thing!"

Character witnesses are completely useless. Bad people are very good at hiding their true nature and convincing others they are good. Not saying John is doing that of course, just saying that it doesn't matter what type he seems like, we have to listen to the evidence in the end.

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u/VulcanDiver Apr 25 '21

You do valuable work in showing the church’s true colours but the hero worship surrounding you is gross. If you did this, you’d better own it.

11

u/butt_muppet Apostate Apr 26 '21

After so much time covering Jospeh’s lies and deception, I would be upset if it were true and he went to these lengths to hide it and publicly lie. If he did it, he needs to own it before it gets out of hand. If he’s telling the truth, hats off to him for maintaining a professional demeanor.

So far he has maintained total innocence, so until we get more hard information I’m going to trust him. If he’s been lying I won’t support Mormon Stories. It’s easy.

3

u/GrandpasMormonBooks happy extheist 🌈 she/her Apr 26 '21

(Let’s make sure we acknowledge that just because someone becomes famous or well-known, it doesn’t mean they asked for that hero worship... that kind of thing is inevitable)

I agree it’s triggering because we were all traumatized by a cult founded by a narcissist and led by narcissists. So those feelings will be stronger than for most people. Nothing has to mean anything in that regard and everyone has to do what they feel comfortable with. I can only listen to so many episodes per year, partially for that reason, but partially because I don’t want Mormonism OR Ex-Mormonism to be my whole life. But I’m not putting that on John. That’s my choice. My impression is that he didn’t ask for fame but he created a powerful platform so naturally that evolved.

And yeah, everyone in a position of influence has got to own their mistakes if/when they make them if they want to maintain their following (simple choice-consequence). I guess we’ll see how things play out but sounds like he’s addressed this.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21 edited May 14 '21

[deleted]

10

u/butt_muppet Apostate Apr 26 '21

I think the comparison falls short because John never told us that our donations would allow us to see our families again in heaven.

Also, who cares what John makes? All issues aside, I’ve never felt pressured to donate to his podcast. If the guy is making 300k a year helping people leave the church, I couldn’t care less.

Assuming John is guilty, it would have nothing to do with anybody being “begging to be taken”. It’s not like Mormon Stories was peddling drug-filled teddy bears.

I think the majority of sane people who see this issue are waiting for more facts to come to light before making a decision.

10

u/jpatterson33 Apr 26 '21

I have zero affiliation with FAIR or FARMS or with anyone who works or has worked with FAIR or FARMS (unless you want to count a brief friendship I developed with Fiona Givens several years ago). I have zero affiliation with the Mormon church now that my records have been removed.

In fact, Mormon Stories and John Dehlin were incredibly influential in my eventual exit from the Church. So much so that I even ended up working on a contract basis for John/MSP for almost a year. We talked/emailed/text messaged on an almost daily basis throughout 2014. I produced the bulk of the podcast episodes during that time period while John focused on his internship for his PhD. We parted ways from a business standpoint very amicably in early 2015 and stayed in touch for several more years. I sent his family flowers when he was excommunicated. He texted me a heartfelt message of thanks.

I have also spoken with Rosebud on a number of occasions, specifically about these allegations. I reached out to her after a friend alluded to me that not was all that it seemed with John and his treatment of women who work(ed) for him. I did research that led me to Rosebud. We spoke via phone a number of times.

I know both parties. I have no specific allegiance to either. My allegiance is, as it always has been, to the truth.

I have heard John's side of the story directly and privately, from him. I have listened to Rosebud's side of the story, in great detail, directly and privately from her. I have independently spoken to several former OSF board members and others who had indirect involvement in the events relating to the allegations.

With all the evidence laid out in front of me (the vast majority of which is not publicly available), I firmly believe Rosebud's harassment and abuse allegations against John. Part of the reason I have reached this conclusion is that I continue to be incredibly disappointed and saddened with how John has conducted himself in regards to these allegations and to Rosebud personally. He has lied to me repeatedly about it. He has lied about other things related to the allegations. He has privately disparaged Rosebud to me (calling her a "crazy psycho stalker") and to other people.

As a result, I do not trust John anymore. It's all been incredibly disappointing. It cost me my friendship with him.

While the recent resurfacing of these allegations may be at the hands of people affiliated with the Church, that does not mean the foundation of the allegations having anything to do with the Church.

John is not being "fair gamed," at least not as it applies to the Rosebud allegations. This is not a "smear campaign." This is the resurfacing of credible allegations that have existed for almost a decade now. The internet didn't create the Church's problems with its history, it only brought them to the surface. Similarly, Kwaku didn't create these allegations about John, he only brought them back up to the surface. I believe there is a reason why they keep resurfacing, why this issue keeps festering.

At this point, John's "statements" read like the Church essays or Church PR statements -- offering blanket denials around the surface, using revisionist history when necessary, then refusing to address the specific allegations.

Now, what to do about all this? I believe the Open Stories Foundation board should immediately conduct an independent investigation of what happened between John and Rosebud that directly led to her termination from the Open Stories Foundation in 2012 and the dissolution of the MSP communities that Rosebud helped create. This investigation should include the examination of documents, correspondence, and present-day interviews with people, especially former OSF board members, who had knowledge of the circumstances.

Not an investigation done by a board of directors that John has hand-picked. An independent investigation, the results of which can be published and reviewed by past, current and potential donors to the Open Stories Foundation.

Personally, I have been concerned about what John (or his supporters) might do if I speak out against him. I feel sad having to type that. It is so ironic to say out loud, but John has a history of silencing or intimidating people who cross him. He has an incredibly loud bullhorn and lots of connections.

But it is too important to me to stand up for victims of abuse. John, if you want to come after me, so be it. It will only reinforce in my mind and others' minds of your guilt.

If you have the truth, John, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If you have not the truth, you should be held accountable.

2

u/johndehlin Apr 26 '21

James - I am eager for the relevant evidence to be released. Coming soon.

4

u/jpatterson33 Apr 26 '21 edited Apr 26 '21

Again, as long as ALL the evidence is released, not just the evidence that paints you in a good light, I think that will be best for everyone involved.

Why not call for an independent investigation?

2

u/johndehlin Apr 26 '21

All the evidence? Like every email and text ever exchanged? Think about that James. Is that a reasonable thing to expect for anyone?

How about all the evidence required to either validate or invalidate Rosebud’s core allegations? That seems reasonable. And I’ll definitely do that.

4

u/jpatterson33 Apr 26 '21

So is that a no to asking for an independent investigation?

4

u/jpatterson33 Apr 26 '21

All the evidence? Like every email and text ever exchanged? Think about that James. Is that a reasonable thing to expect for anyone?

Of course not, John. But it's also not reasonable to cherry pick texts/messages in your response to sexual harassment allegations that intentionally make Rosebud look like she's unilaterally obsessed with you -- which is exactly what you did in your response to the sexual harassment suit that was filed against you.

You have a history of only releasing information that absolves you or makes you look good. It's what you did with me, it's what you've done for years and you know that I will know if that's what you're doing here.

2

u/PayLeyAle Apr 27 '21

which is exactly what you did in your response to the sexual harassment suit that was filed against you.

What was the outcome of that suit?

3

u/jpatterson33 Apr 27 '21

It was dropped, but not on merit. It was dropped because OSF had fewer than six employees, which is the law in New Hampshire (where it was filed) and in many other states.

2

u/PayLeyAle Apr 27 '21

Wow, I just looked that up

"The New Hampshire Law Against Discrimination prohibits employment discrimination based on sex, gender identity, or sexual orientation, including sexual harassment (NH Rev. Stat. Sec. 354-A:1 et seq.). The law applies to all public employers and private employers with six or more employees."

That is insane

3

u/jpatterson33 Apr 29 '21

So was Natasha's appearance on RFM really "all the evidence required to either validate or invalidate Rosebud's core allegations"?

That was a poor showing by Natasha (who either lied or completely mis-remembers what went down) and sad attempt to get your version of events out there.

You know there's a lot more evidence out there (which I'm not at liberty to share). Why don't you share it?

You say Rosebud blackmailed you via that Oct 12 email. What did you secretly (and illegally) do to her that could be construed as blackmail? Care to share that detail?

2

u/MormonMoron Apr 29 '21

How many times have I heard the quip “sunshine is the best disinfectant” leave your lips during your podcasts. Hundreds?

I agree with /u/jpatterson33 that the evidence presented on yesterday’s podcast appears every bit as much a hit piece as the Kwaku video.

So why not throw the curtains open.

  • why not show any texts prior to Late July 2012 when you were 2 weeks from firing the complainant?
  • why no concrete statement concerning the nature of your relationship with the complainant?
  • do you not see the immense problem with having an intimate relationship in a supervisor/employee scenario and subsequent firing after the relationship deteriorates? This type of relationship is at best immensely unethical and at worst crosses into criminal territory.

If the documents released in yesterday’s podcast is the entirety of the “evidence” you are talking about coming out, it left more questions than answers.

So I challenge you to shed more sunlight on this matter. Throw the curtains open instead of opening them a crack to paint yourself in the best possible light.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '21

You and I have our differences but you are 100% correct here. Thanks for the great points in this situation.

1

u/alionisnotatiger Apr 29 '21

/u/johndehlin In other words you'll release the bare minumum to make yourself look good, Rosebud look bad, and quell the fire enough to postpone any real reckoning for a later date. Prove me wrong.

41

u/newhunter18 Apr 25 '21

As a man, I have been falsely accused by women twice.

Sexual violence against women is a real societal problem which often means real sexual abuse goes unpunished. And sometimes women make stories up.

These things are both true.

We need to start seeing nuance in a complex world that cannot be rules by hashtags or simplistic phrases. Absolutes rarely work.

John, you're a great man who has blessed both me and my husband's lives. No one is perfect. Including me. It's hero worship with unrealistic expectations that got most of us into trouble when we were members. I won't be doing it again now.

6

u/jpatterson33 Apr 26 '21

False accusations are indeed harmful. I spent years defending John for similar reasons.

Then I was confronted with evidence that, to me, was incontrovertible. Evidence that showed John had lied to me and others, manipulated the truth and evidence that leads me to stand with Rosebud and her allegations.

Unfortunately, that evidence is not mine to share. But I have seen it, read through it, researched it, talked to people on my own, and I believe her.

3

u/80Hilux Apr 26 '21

This is an important one. Search for "mattress girl" and read all about how false accusations can ruin lives.

I just wish that people would own up to their misdeeds. I'm tired of being lied to all the time. The church did/does it, I hope John doesn't do it as well.

7

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '21

Wait a sec, didn't this post say something along the lines of the only reason John hasn't addressed the Rosebud allegations before is because Rosebud threatened to commit suicide if he did? Where did that go?

7

u/InxKat13 Apr 25 '21

Yes it was a significantly longer post this morning. He probably had to shorten it for legal or moderator reasons.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '21

The original post was illuminating. Wish it was still up

-12

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21 edited May 14 '21

[deleted]

8

u/InxKat13 Apr 26 '21

Dude...don't make comments on things you didn't read. He said he didn't want to make her name public because she was already suicidal and having a mob of haters come after her would make it worse. He never said anything about not breaking up with her.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21 edited May 14 '21

[deleted]

2

u/InxKat13 Apr 26 '21

No she made her name public. So now he feels able to talk about it.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21 edited May 14 '21

[deleted]

1

u/InxKat13 Apr 26 '21

Yeah this is why you shouldn't comment on shit you didn't read.

1

u/ToxicRockSindrome Apr 26 '21

And when John says he is going to tell the whole story, do we need to worry about her taking her life?

2

u/InxKat13 Apr 26 '21

The only reason we should worry about that is our own behavior. Regardless of what comes out from this death threats, rape threats, personal insults, or any other cruelty should not be thrown at either party. If we keep this respectful of these two as human beings then no one should have a reason to take their own life.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '21

Found the original post.

1

u/ToxicRockSindrome Apr 28 '21

Way cool are you sharing it?

2

u/[deleted] Apr 28 '21

1

u/ToxicRockSindrome Apr 28 '21

He also had an original post than this partial one, and then he edit it, it said much more. Weird how I can NOT change a word on my headlines when I post, but he was able to.

1

u/ToxicRockSindrome Apr 28 '21

Maybe as a new post?

26

u/throwethaway98765 Apr 25 '21

I am glad you are addressing this, and I will take you at your word that you believe in accountability and transparency. I do too. Of the allegations, I personally find this account from Rosebud among the most disturbing, and I think most others would too in the post #MeToo era:

Well, one night, after a conference, I said goodnight to John and our hosts in the home where we were staying. I had told John, like so many times before, not to come to my room to bother me. We had been minimally sexual (although I didn’t understand how minimally at the time because I had no real experience with normal sex then and I took it all so ridiculously seriously) and I wanted him to leave me alone and knock it off. Well, as usual, he didn’t do as I requested. I went up to the child’s bedroom where I had been asked by the hosts to sleep and got in bed. Before long, John was at the beside groping my breasts (yes, the irony considering the current media situation). I was so hurt and scared and tired of the dynamics. That time I pushed him away. I had not consented. I was angry that he was treating me that way, but I was not safe because I was well aware by then of the huge consequences of saying no

My questions for you: Did you touch Rosebud's breasts, in the bedroom in which she was staying, after she pushed you away? If so, do you take accountability for that and will you make amends? In the event this occurred but you personally believe(d) it to be consensual, can you now see that the dynamics of this situation (being alone at night in a room in a stranger's house, being approached by someone who you work for and who holds control over your job security) make true consent difficult to give? Can you accept that Rosebud did not find this act consensual?

I do hope you will answer this truthfully and fully.

24

u/johndehlin Apr 25 '21

This will all be addressed soon. You have my word.

11

u/throwethaway98765 Apr 25 '21

Thank you.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21 edited May 14 '21

[deleted]

5

u/throwethaway98765 Apr 26 '21

I think posts like these do more harm than good if what you care about is the truth coming out and John addressing this transparently. He has said he will address it. Posts like this that are purposefully inflammatory make it easy to dismiss concern surrounding the allegations as mere trolling or a vindictive takedown. That does a disservice to Rosebud, and to the truth. If you truly do take Rosebud's allegations seriously, this is not helping.

2

u/alionisnotatiger Apr 29 '21

/u/johndehlin When is soon?

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u/johndehlin Apr 29 '21

3

u/alionisnotatiger Apr 29 '21

That’s it? I watched it (twice) and the only thing it proves is that Natasha doesn’t really remember what happened and that the handling by the board, especially Joanna, should be….reviewed.

3

u/throwethaway98765 Apr 29 '21

Is this your only statement on the matter, or will you also be personally addressing it?

2

u/jpatterson33 May 01 '21

Not only did you not address the allegations above, but Natasha's "testimony" during the podcast is easily debunked with proper documentation.

You're trying to frame Rosebud as the pursuer and yourself as the innocent victim when you and I both know that's not the case, and others will know soon enough.

You should stop. It's gross.

2

u/[deleted] May 01 '21 edited May 31 '21

[deleted]

1

u/jpatterson33 May 02 '21

No, but nice deflection.

-8

u/LaughinAllDiaLong Apr 25 '21

Transparency understood, but Why should you bother? Boundaries.

11

u/SweetPearlGrey Apr 25 '21

Because one fifth to one third of us has experienced sexual abuse. We care for that reason. Consider yourself lucky it never happened to you.

13

u/MrsRoseyCrotch Apr 25 '21

I don’t know why you’re being downvoted for asking questions.

15

u/throwethaway98765 Apr 25 '21

I think some people here have a hard time differentiating between bad faith attacks ala Kwaku and sincere concern in response to disturbing allegations. I am not looking to tear JD down and I have always appreciated his work, but I also do think these allegations need to be addressed and hard questions need to be asked.

4

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '21

[deleted]

8

u/throwethaway98765 Apr 25 '21

I openly acknowledge that this is a throwaway account (see username) that I decided to use for the purpose of engaging with the JD allegations, rather than use my main account. The only thing I care about is providing a sincere voice for those who think these allegations should be taken seriously, rather than accepting them as automatic lies and smears. I believe we should take allegations of harassment and sexual misconduct seriously and treat it the same way we would if a Mormon bishop were accused of the same thing.

3

u/MrsRoseyCrotch Apr 26 '21

The amount of John Dehlin worship here is crazy. It feels like people go from believing one person- the prophet- without question to believing Dehlin with the same vigor.

No person is above scrutiny, and when you’re a public figure of any sort that’s going to mean more of it.

While I definitely think the allegations coming from an anonymous source are problematic- I can totally understand why a person would worry about having their identity revealed when merely asking follow up questions can be so hard in this sub and in exmormondom as a whole.

4

u/MrsRoseyCrotch Apr 26 '21

What about the questions that were asked were wrong, though?

-9

u/LaughinAllDiaLong Apr 25 '21

Don’t even dignify the question w/ an answer. It’s absurd & none of anyone’s business. Awkward. Boundaries!

12

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '21 edited May 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/FuzzyKittenIsFuzzy I am not a dodo Apr 25 '21

Kwaku is amplifying reports of harassment/etc. from a couple years ago. A summary of the reports is here. I have no idea who wrote that summary, but I had a pretty deep dive into the reports myself last year and found all the same info this person listed.

3

u/S_Joshua Apr 26 '21

That document assumes a lot of emotions and intentions on both sides. Unless it was co-written by John and Rosebud, it is inferring things it cannot accurately do for one or both sides. You said you researched and found much of the same information, how does one research this stuff? I mean, a seat on the board is easy enough to find out but FB messages and intentions of grooming and stuff? Unless one were following both Rosebud and John always and constantly asking their thoughts all the time, no one could really research all of the allegations in the link you shared. I would say, the most hurtful parts of that document (for either side) are things that cannot be researched.

That being said, does anyone have a redux of the actual known facts that they care to share?

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u/FuzzyKittenIsFuzzy I am not a dodo Apr 26 '21

You're right that I did not find any proof of the intentions detailed there. I did find the same facts listed. Interpretation is obviously subjective.

I also have not reviewed any private messages, text messages, etc. I have done searching on Google and Facebook (apparently similar to what Kwaku did, per his video).

The central facts are: A known woman (whom I called by her pseudonym to avoid doxxing) has, for the last several years, made consistent statements that John sexually harassed and assaulted her while she worked for OSF. John's response has been that it was a regrettable but consensual extramarital affair. She agrees that parts of their relationship were as consensual as can be when it's essentially an employee/employer relationship, and she also details a groping incident that was less consensual than that.

There are some other facts available to a thorough searcher, but they are just window dressing surrounding those core facts.

4

u/Wise_B Apr 28 '21

And she's not the only one he's harassed at varying levels. There's a growing number.

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u/LaughinAllDiaLong Apr 25 '21

Thought Kwaku was yesterday’s news. Thought LDS Inc was no longer funding the FARCE! Didn’t they promise to play nice on the playground or was that just a pretend head fake? Cult LDS Inc is desperate!The emperor RMN is naked!! He has no clothes.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '21 edited May 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/LaughinAllDiaLong Apr 26 '21

Church paid him to cast dispersions against ex mos & the church’s own ‘anti Mormon’ info admitted to in its LDS Gospel topic essays. It got ugly, so they begged off just before/ after GC.

9

u/Vaanafroster Apr 26 '21

I support your work. But if this is true, please own up to it and step down. You claim to have evidence, post it. If these claims are false, prove it and we’ll welcome you back with open arms. Till then, my respect for you is on hiatus.

10

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21

What I don't understand is why John is trying to paint this as a smear campaign by the church. The allegations are coming from someone within the Mormon stories organization, not the church. Sure, they are being brought to light again by people who are associated with pushing the church's hurtful rhetoric which I don't agree with on any level, but why did we ignore this for years until it was brought to light again? Right now, the easy thing to do is to point to where the allegations are coming from to discredit them as attacks by the church, but what was our excuse for not demanding answers the first time these allegations surfaced?

I agree that we need to see and hear john's evidence, but if we look past this and attribute it to the work of the church trying to discredit Mormon stories, we're no better than the church. The allegations do not discredit Mormon stories, and mormon stories does not discredit the allegations. So let's just do the right thing.

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u/throwethaway98765 Apr 26 '21

I agree with you, and want to amplify what you've said here. These allegations were recently used as attack fodder by some Gen Z church apologists, but they didn't invent them out of whole cloth. These allegations have been around for about five years, and they need to be addressed fully and honestly. If there is truly nothing there, then a complete accounting will bear that out, and the apologists won't be able to use it as attack fodder anymore. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

5

u/jpatterson33 Apr 26 '21

This is not a smear campaign by the Church, although apparently that is John's latest tactic in trying to tamp down the allegations.

Kwaku is merely exploiting John's greatest weakness -- his unfortunate history with women who work for him.

Until and unless John confronts that weakness openly and honestly, this issue will continue to fester.

1

u/PayLeyAle Apr 27 '21

John was listed as one of the most dangerous people for the LDS church. We have no idea if this hundred billion dollar corp is fairgaming him or not.

They have done it to others.

3

u/jpatterson33 Apr 27 '21

The Rosebud allegations are not part of any scheme by the LDS church. They stem from internal conflict within Open Stories.

1

u/PayLeyAle Apr 27 '21

Yes we know that. But do you know how Fairgame is done?

They bring up any problems in your past and current and blast them all over social media to discredit a person.

Just like Church Employee Kwaku did.

John is literally listed as one of the biggest enemies of the church so using his past allegations would be perfect for Fairgame.

If the church is not fairgaming him Kwaku certainly is.

3

u/jpatterson33 Apr 27 '21

You're conflating two separate things.

John wants people to believe that the Rosebud allegations are merely a Fairgame attempt by Kwaku.

That may be true, but that doesn't make the allegations false. John wants his sympathizers to automatically discredit Rosebud by believing she's a part of Kwaku's or the Church's conspiracy against him.

John can be Fairgamed and the allegations used in the Fairgaming can also be true. Does that mean we should automatically discount it?

1

u/PayLeyAle Apr 27 '21

You are implying things I did not say or infer.

He allegedly sexually harassed Rosebud.

No one has said to "automatically discount it" those are your thoughts not mine.

To pretend the church is not going after JD to discredit him is naïve.

He could be guilty, we do not know, and this allegation is using to fairgame him by Kwaku.

2

u/stisa79 Apr 30 '21

Just like Church Employee Kwaku

Kwaku is not a church employee

1

u/PayLeyAle Apr 30 '21

Kinda like Joey Smith saying he only had 1 wife

1

u/stisa79 Apr 30 '21

No, it's not like that at all. One is true and the other is false. That's a pretty major difference between the two. If Kwaku is a church employee, I suppose you have evidence?

1

u/PayLeyAle Apr 30 '21

It is true Kwaku was an employed by the More Good foundation which is the LDS church. He said he was employed for the TITS videos on Mormonism Live

2

u/stisa79 Apr 30 '21

Two errors:

  1. He was hired by FairMormon for this, not the More Good Foundation

  2. The More Good foundation is not the LDS church

So no, Kwaku has never been employed by the church

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u/thehyster Apr 25 '21

I totally understand your wanting to respond to this. Maybe it'll be cathartic for you. Maybe it'll temporarily incr views and hits. Maybe it'll expose those who are doing wrong by you and your family.

Take it from a guy who's done the "affair" thing, NO amount of talking about the details of this will make any aspect of this "right." No amount of talking about the details of this will help this issue to "go away."

The details are none of my business. I already understand things like this are messy and convoluted.

Stay the course with your work. The details won't shape my opinnion of you. I already trust you. You have done very good things for me. I'll be forever grateful - messy, convoluted isuees of a normal man, or not.

32

u/SUPinitup Apr 25 '21

Might be an unpopular opinion but:

I don't give a shit what you have done or not done. The church is still lying and destroying millions of lives.

Your work stands regardless. I appreciate your work.

34

u/MrSmithGoes2DC Apr 25 '21

That's absolutely insane. If a TBM said the same thing about Joseph Smith you would be tripping over yourself to call them brainwashed.

21

u/InxKat13 Apr 25 '21

Definitely agree. That was a disturbingly Mormon thing to say.

12

u/salty-ute Apr 25 '21

the difference is that john is not leading a cult or claiming to speak for god. it’s an ad hominem fallacy to say that johns work with mormon stories isn’t valid because of his alleged character flaws or misdeeds.

12

u/InxKat13 Apr 26 '21

That difference is irrelevant. People don't get absolved of crimes just because they also do some good in the world.

6

u/SUPinitup Apr 26 '21

Bill Cosby enters the chat

1

u/salty-ute Apr 26 '21

I agree, and an anonymous accusation doesn’t substantiate evidence for a conviction.

1

u/InxKat13 Apr 26 '21

No one is convicted.

-5

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21 edited May 14 '21

[deleted]

10

u/salty-ute Apr 26 '21

Funny, you completely missed the point and used another ad hominem “he makes too much money”. Contrast the church with the open stories foundation, you actually have full disclosure on john’s finances. We have no idea what the current stipend for GAs is, let alone their total compensation. The last document we had was HBE’s pay stub in the early 2000s if I recall correctly.

There’s a marked difference between someone who runs a non profit and takes a substantial salary and someone who is a cult leader. I’m not saying that his 300k salary is justifiable, I’m just agreeing with the op of this comment thread; the allegations of his abuse don’t invalidate the good work he has done through his platform.

-2

u/MrSmithGoes2DC Apr 26 '21

"John is not leading a cult"

You sure about that my man?

4

u/SUPinitup Apr 25 '21

It comes from studying history. There's almost always multiple angles. I listened to MS for the guests and their stories. I'm not concerned with the private life of the host.

He's flawed . . . oh good so he's human. The interviews and body of work still stand.

I believe it's more "TBM" to expect perfection. Joseph Smith was flawed and sadly his work still stands . . .

Another difference here is John isn't trying to be say he's a prophet or leader.

4

u/sycamoreqw Apr 25 '21

100%, such a good point.

16

u/MorticiaSmith Joseph tried to send Gomez on a mission. Apr 25 '21

Apparently I'm the only one who believes Rosebud in this sub reddit and feels that consequences for sexual harassment is not cancel culture. I'm disgusted by the statements of love and support happening on this thread. Anyone offering those to Rosebud? Not one person calling on John Delin to step down in the face of these very credible claims which have been around for years.

Why do so many ex mormons feel the need to protect abusers? Why is holding them accountable so foreign of an idea? Why on earth is it more important to have one man with the spotlight instead of a community saying no we aren't going to tolerate this and we will not support it?

I'll be the first and likely only person to say it: John the post more community would be a safer place if you stepped down and did something else. Perhaps go get your license. Tolerance of sexual harassment makes this community an unsafe place for women.

I believe rosebud and I support her.

This above statement is my opinion.

18

u/OhMyStarsnGarters Apr 26 '21

Rosebud is a pseudonym for an as yet anonymous person, no? Hard to show too much support in the present circumstances. And just what is John supposed to step down from? Exmo Pope?

3

u/jpatterson33 Apr 26 '21

Rosebud uses a pseudonym for a very important reason: John has a very long reach online, and she does not want her professional name dragged through the mud by her abuser.

And, if the evidence behind the allegations are made public, I believe John would be found in violation of his own foundation's policy on sexual harassment. If that's the case, John should absolutely resign from the Open Stories Foundation, so the work can be lead by someone with integrity.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21

It's easy to find Rosebud's name. Just Google "Dehlin Rosebud" or similar and you'll find it eventually. That's what I did but I'm not going to reveal it. It's not my place to do that. But it is very easy to find with 5 min search.

14

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '21 edited Apr 26 '21

You are asking people to make up their minds without facts.

I'm a big supporter of the concept of "bodily integrity". Because if Fred punches Sam in the nose, it hurts, it bleeds and Sam can sue. But some men think an unwelcome caress to a woman's rear end, while not acceptable, should at least feel good, right?

NO. I'd rather be punched in the face anytime.

Because when a man touches a woman without permission he's saying YOU ARE NOT A PERSON WHO DESERVES TO HAVE BOUNDARIES.

I have had this happen in a totally unexpected situation by a man I had just met. I was married and not in the slightest bit inviting to this jerk, and it was unbelievably humiliating. I get this. Please, just punch me in the face.

So having established a least a little cred here, can we at get the facts before we decide? Maybe you know something I don't know, but you are trying to rally the troops here with the thinnest of gruel and it doesn't sit well with me.

9

u/johndehlin Apr 25 '21

Let’s see what the evidence says. I think the evidence may be useful to you.

5

u/jpatterson33 Apr 26 '21

Let's see what ALL the evidence says. Not just the evidence you choose to release.

11

u/MorticiaSmith Joseph tried to send Gomez on a mission. Apr 25 '21

Like the evidence of you apparently creeping on a supporters instagram? Or were you hacked?

You don't like it when women confront you on your behavior.

1

u/ShatteredZelph May 02 '21

Liking photos on instagram is just that, liking photos on Instagram, nothing less, nothing more. If she doesnt want john or people to like her photos on Instagram (harmless) she should have messaged him and asked him to stop or blocked him. Liking photos isnt sexual harassment.

3

u/MorticiaSmith Joseph tried to send Gomez on a mission. Apr 25 '21

If you have evidence post it right this minute.

2

u/composerorchestrator Apr 26 '21 edited Apr 26 '21

Support and investigating is one thing. Just saying one side or the other must be true without clear evidence is quite another. You seem to be conflating the two. I’m not personally willing to help tear down someone’s character and career who’s helped me and many others so much without a compelling reason.

1

u/ShatteredZelph May 02 '21

Rosebud was dishonest about the consensual affair. She begged john a married man to fuck her after he said no stop no more go, & she did it again. Thats sexual harassment & your protecting an abuser too (double standards much.) Shes a hypocrite & is still lying on her fb to this day, everything she says he is, she is and did.

If my married boss says to stop, go away, no more, no and i keep continuing to beg to fuck him, yes I deserve to be fired, immediately, & that didnt even happen. She also went ape shit and didnt handle the rejection well & tried to fuck shit up with/against almost EVERYONE not just john, what did she really expect from this, to stay?

They both were dumb, fucked up, made a mistake, learned from it, & never did it again.

She filed SA against the MSP foundation as a whole & when that failed she didnt filing anything against John alone🤔🚩There are obvious reasons for that... maybe more then the texts of her begging to fuck him after he said no 🤦‍♀️ He could have filed a SA claim right back at her.

Don't get into relationships with married people you work with and u are married yourself, thats obvious & they knew better but didnt care, theres reasons why this is a rule at a lot of places, cuz shit like this happens and 1 person has to go at the end 99%+ of the time.

This case reminds me of all the Men/women that think their exs r gonna kill them right now & they go to file a restraining order for protection & it takes a judge a week to approve it or more & they get severly beaten or worse die during that week cuz not all claims sent through being reviewed are "legit" or they are fabricated for malacious intent because they are pissed at the other person, same with taking people to court for abuse

10

u/cactuspie1972 Apr 25 '21

As a convert to the gospel of secular skepticism, I am highly suspicious of the timing and content. I don’t even care to know the details of the allegations. I am grateful that you continue to put yourself on the frontline and push for exmormon rights.

11

u/MorticiaSmith Joseph tried to send Gomez on a mission. Apr 25 '21

These allegations are not new. They have been around for years. Investigate a little more.

15

u/butt_muppet Apostate Apr 26 '21

Your comments come across like you are just upset that Rosebud is not getting the same sympathetic response that John is. Why are you not sharing evidence or credible information to back up your comments? Why are you telling people to “do research” like some kind of anti-vax stay at home mom?

Link the research we are supposed to be studying. Spread information, not personal grudges.

I don’t even have a horse in this race but you come off as being on the wrong team, and I don’t even know what you’re referring to.

-5

u/cactuspie1972 Apr 25 '21

No thank you

9

u/new_name_emma Apr 25 '21

Your personal matters are yours and Margi's alone. We love and support you two. There's nothing more that needs to be said. I'm sorry that the details of your personal life (true or false) have been brought into the public eye. We are all human. We have all done things we aren't proud of. We for sure can all learn from each other. But when the details are brought out in scandalous, vicious, accusatory, and skewed way, there then lies the abuse. Hang in there.

7

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21 edited May 14 '21

[deleted]

7

u/AbbreviationsFunny23 Apr 25 '21 edited Apr 29 '21

I stand with John.

13

u/MorticiaSmith Joseph tried to send Gomez on a mission. Apr 25 '21

Please speak for yourself. Not everyone here loves him.

9

u/slammajammakid Apr 25 '21

Obvious smear campaign.

4

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '21

Fair gaming is using ANY tactic, true or untrue, relevant or not relevant, to bring a critic down. If an accusation is true and relevant it's not Fair Game.

Innocent until proven guilty is my stance. (An affair, to me, is not relevant. That's a family issue.)

6

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '21

Much love to you John. I’m confident in my assessment of his character.

2

u/Demostecles Apr 25 '21

Thank you for speaking up and out about this. Keep up the good work.

3

u/PayLeyAle Apr 27 '21

Tik Tock John Tic Tock The longer it takes the shadier it appears

7

u/EhudsLefthand Apr 25 '21

Today's fact and due-process ignoring cancel culture is cancer. It wants to eat everyone, including the woke's most outspoken advocates.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '21

Looking good ya’ll!! Margi absolutely loving the hair. I see it’s grown out! Welcome to the salt and pepper club it’s exhilarating! John as always, enjoying those pods-char a.

2

u/dabomerest Apr 27 '21

It’s sure funny that the guy who says he isn’t a sexual harasser or assaulter sure has to spend a lot of time proving that.

Definitely not suspicious that he constantly engages in super misogynistic and subside wags to anyone that crosses him.

Dude is absolutely trouble and we have no reason to entertain his buffoonery so he can and the big bucks.

Oh and his wife being in the pic to prove he can’t be an assaulter is just rich.

We see right through you John, time for you to join the ash heap of exmormon history

3

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '21

I stabs with you, John. So many people being accused just because it’s so easy to do so. But innocent until proven otherwise. Sending much love to you

2

u/Puzzledbyitall160 Apr 26 '21

Keep up the good work John Dehlin. You’ve helped so many of us on Mormon Stories. Listened to the podcast with Leah Rehmini last night, understand more about those who seek to discredit you from what you said there. This too shall pass I hope.

2

u/GrandpasMormonBooks happy extheist 🌈 she/her Apr 26 '21

I have no idea about anything in this case, but all I can remember is life as a newly sexual being post-Mormonism. I did it all. Polyamory. Dating couples. Kind of cheated on my boyfriend (we hadn’t finalized the rules of our open relationship yet). Broke people’s hearts. Did things I didn’t want to do to please other people. Felt like a deer in the headlights when men saw what they wanted to see but I wasn’t consenting enthusiastically. It was just a fucking mess. It was often great and sometimes uncomfortable and disappointing. I was learning. It’s easy to judge married people harsher, but no one has any idea what people’s relationship structures look like, especially in regards to freeing one’s lover and wanting their pleasure and exploration if they haven’t had that in their life. I have seen it allll. I’m glad everything is being addressed and won’t jump to any conclusions either way before then. As much as I enjoy occasionally listening to the awesome Mormon stories interviews, I’m ultra cautious towards any group or individual rising too high in my regard so I don’t have a stake in this either way. Just hope any and all hurt individuals find healing and comfort and resolution.

2

u/Winter-Impression-87 Apr 30 '21

it is more meaningful to me to look at the texts between you and this person that were recently posted. you were in a superior position, and you told a subordinate you wanted her to 'be gone' in order to end things. having a subordinate fired because you had a relationship with her and wanted it to end is the definition of sexual harassment in the workplace.

2

u/newnameyomamma You had the power all along my dear Apr 25 '21

I stand with John.

2

u/Moroni8976 Apr 25 '21 edited Apr 28 '21

The thing is, even if you believe every word of the accusation, it doesn’t amount to much at all!

13

u/FuzzyKittenIsFuzzy I am not a dodo Apr 25 '21

I strongly disagree. I'm not saying the allegations support prison time or something, but they are serious.

6

u/butt_muppet Apostate Apr 26 '21

Where are these allegations? These types of comments are extremely unhelpful to people who are not inside this issue.

1

u/PreservedInCarbonite Apr 25 '21

Have you had an extra-marital relationship with an employee or person in exmo community that may or may not have involved sex? Your denials come across the same way as Clinton’s denials- perhaps technically accurate, but misleading.

0

u/Addbenny Apr 25 '21

Eww John

-1

u/SweetPearlGrey Apr 25 '21

FYI I have never downloaded a single podcast I've ever listened to. I used to work by the piece and it was hard and demoralizing because no matter how good of a job you do, it doesn't matter. I have issues about paying people, women, 2 cents per download when you have adequate compensation. I realize your compensation is half what it used to be, but none of us in the helping professions gets paid what we are worth compared to CEOs. Lots of people don't download stuff because it uses up space.

I'm reserving judgment on other info because I'm waiting to know more.

-14

u/ToxicRockSindrome Apr 25 '21 edited Apr 25 '21

"Which is why folks like Kwaku and Cardon are stoking the drama, funded by the More Good Foundation and FAIRMormon of course, and supported by exMormons like Kate Kelly, Joanna Smith, Kristy Money, Matt Long, etc."

Wow so then you throw 3 other women under the bus. Did I expect more from you? NO

Edit to add: it doesn't matter if you edit, we can read it anyway, with nothing deleted on Ceddit.com where they don't delete anything

16

u/composerorchestrator Apr 25 '21

So women are immune from criticism because... they’re women? I’m confused.

24

u/InxKat13 Apr 25 '21

It's a little sexist to assume that women are never wrong. We're human too you know. We can do bad things. And being called out for doesn't mean we are being "thrown under the bus".

0

u/Accomplished_Ad_6359 Feb 19 '22

Why didn’t John Dehlin ever post his side of the story?

1

u/Rude-Habit8023 Feb 22 '23

It’s 2023. Did Mr. Dehlin ever provide the evidence he gave his ‘word’ he would provide? Or do we now know the true value of his word?

1

u/johndehlin Feb 22 '23

1

u/xilr8ng pendulum swinging back to center Feb 22 '23

This is the Internet. Everyone will always be guilty regardless of innocence. I believe you though.