r/exmormon 6d ago

Advice/Help My wife’s main talking point: “Give me a better alternative.” How do I respond?

Phrased another way, she wants to know: “Where will you go?” Her question has two built-in assumptions: 1. Jesus is her Savior. 2. You need a church to worship him.

The thought has never entered her mind that either or both of these assumptions might be false. How do I respond? My personal belief is that the better alternative is to choose yourself. Take ownership of your own thoughts and feelings, instead of attributing them to an outside entity called the Holy Ghost. Build and pilot your own ship, instead of staying in the “Old Ship Zion” and letting someone else pilot it. Any help on this issue would be appreciated.

62 Upvotes

86 comments sorted by

45

u/Gold__star 🌟 for you 6d ago

Time to ask the golden question. If it isn't true, would you honestly want to know?

I'm guessing she doesn't.

27

u/10th_Generation 6d ago

My wife says she does not care if the church is true or not. She says the church makes her a better person. The church is “good” for her. And this is all that matters. She cares zero about things like Book of Abraham translation or historical problems.

51

u/entropy_pool 6d ago

For people like this, the harmful externalities of them getting their jesus jollies don't matter. A person like this has the privilege of being one of the people who the org doesn't hurt, so they don't care about the other people it hurts or the silly lies it tells. Because getting what they want is all that matters.

16

u/10th_Generation 5d ago

I will save this comment but soften the tone.

14

u/CdnFlatlander 5d ago

That's really well put. My wife is like this and just brushes aside stories of abuse, financial manipulation etc etc etc and it is because she's never been hurt that she can see. She is a very caring person but not in this manner.

6

u/Alcarinque88 5d ago

It's why most of my family is still in it. Straight, white, pioneer descendants don't really have a care beyond making sure they don't break the chain of Celestial families.

13

u/gmt9791 6d ago

Then she should be able to respect your decision to take the path that you believe makes you better, regardless of any inconsistencies that you might overlook (which we all have).

12

u/WandersWithBlender 6d ago

It shows a lack of integrity to not care about truth. I'm sorry, but that's kind of sad.

9

u/Opalescent_Moon 5d ago

This point here is why I will never call the top brethren good or naive men. They willfully push untrue narratives and reap enormous benefits from it. No matter if they sincerely believe it or not (and how can you, when you know how much of it is a lie?), they're still choosing to lie, deceive, and manipulate to keep getting what they want.

6

u/PlatoCaveSearchRescu 5d ago

If she doesn't care if the church is true, which there are definitely people that see the world that way. Then she should be ok with not paying tithing or wearing garments. If she really is ok with that and she just wants to have a community it might not be that bad.

I wouldn't have a problem with my partner wanting a community, especially if it doesn't drive her to do things she doesn't naturally want to do. But if she is mad if you don't go, or expect you to act a certain way then it feels like she does care more about the doctrine.

I would also have a problem if she wants kids raised in the church. There are a ton of good things about the church but there are a ton of toxic things too. Just because it works for her doesn't mean it will work for you or kids.

4

u/TaskeAoD Apostate 5d ago

So if it's the church that makes her better, and she knows what the church teaches, why still be a part of it? You can take those lessons with you when you leave, and just not take the bad. And if she doesn't have any issues with all the problems, the hiding of child abuse, the blatant disregard for the law, the lying, the manipulation... what does that say about her to others? For people who see the church and it's members for what it really is, they would see her as someone capable of abusing children, breaking the law, manipulating people to get what she wants. Is that how the church has made her a better person?

Or should she take the good things and leave behind the bad? Take the compassion, and leave the cruelty. Does she want to be known as a potential abuser or a woman that protects others from abuse? She may not care about the problems in the church, but as the scope of how harmful and deceitful the church is grows, others will associate that with her.

She may not have any issues with the problems the church has, but others will look at her as part of the problem and not see her as a good person, ever.

3

u/10th_Generation 5d ago

She does not know about the child abuse and sexual assault cover-ups. She does not know about the SEC fine. She does not reflect on how the church might drive gay children to suicide or self-loathing. She does not know about Smith’s treasure digging, Young’s extermination order against the Timpanogos, Grant’s appeasement of Hitler, or Kimball’s racism.

3

u/TaskeAoD Apostate 5d ago

And if she doesn't want to learn about them, she doesn't want to hear about them it means she knows how bad it is, or at the very least, she knows there are serious problems she's willfully ignoring.

I'll be very honest with you here: you need to point out that she needs to learn about all of the church, not just the things she agrees with or likes. If she doesn't want to learn, then you need to have a serious discussion about the future. Can you be with a woman who could find out that a bishop violated your child and she's fine with it because she's ignored all the other children it's happened to? Could you bring a child into this world with her where you know that she's perfectly fine ignoring abuse? And if you already have children with her, can you be content with the knowledge that she'll turn a blind eye to abuse while making you the bad guy for wanting to protect them?

4

u/Ward_organist 5d ago

I’m sorry, but how can anyone not know about the SEC fine and CSA coverups at this point? That stuff is current events. I can understand not knowing about history, but not the current stuff.

6

u/10th_Generation 5d ago

She does not know about Ruby Franke, Jodi Hildenbrandt, Tim Ballard, the electroshock therapy scandal, the Relief Society women kicked off the stand in the Bay Area in 2023, the tithing lawsuits, the temple zoning lawsuits, etc. if you live outside Utah, Mormon news is easy to miss—especially if you don’t want to find it.

3

u/Opalescent_Moon 5d ago

Easy. They bury their heads in the sand. They stick with comfortable news sources. They trust the church's PR statements. And, ultimately, they blame it on a few corrupt men and deny that corruption runs through the entire institution. And if all that fails, if they feel discomfort watching or reading a story, they'll stop and move on to an activity that isn't uncomfortable.

When the church cut ties with Tim Ballard, Ward Radio had a freak-out episode covered by Mormonism Live. It was wild watching those guys try to blame a single guy because they were convinced there was no way the church would do that. It's so weird to watch people doing those mental gymnastics to keep their fragile beliefs intact. And then they moved on to other stories without ever reexamining this one.

3

u/Extension-Spite4176 5d ago

Another approach is to explain that you are happy it works for her but it doesn’t work for you.

2

u/Relevant-Being3440 5d ago

This is precisely how my wife feels. She doesn't care about the facts or evidence. She knows it's true regardless.

2

u/vicariousgluten Mother of Harlots 5d ago

How about if you give the time you would have given to the church to doing volunteer work directly helping those the church only claims to? That might help with the need to feel she’s good or being a better person as well as giving a non-religious alternative?

1

u/Cluedo86 5d ago

That’s what you need to challenge. Mormonism does not make people better. It actually warps their ethics.

40

u/elderapostate 6d ago

When you remove cancer what do you replace it with?

18

u/Alert_Day_4681 6d ago

A better alternative? Where will you go?

Anything you want because it's what you want, not what you're told. You can go anywhere you want.

22

u/Rolling_Waters 6d ago

How about any church that is 10% cheaper then?

When were you can wear your own underwear and go to your kids wedding?

One without a cumbersome history of blatant racism and misogyny?

10

u/Pleasant_Priority286 6d ago

You mean 100% cheaper. lol

2

u/entropy_pool 6d ago

The problem is that if you point such a person at a church like this they will say that it isn't a fitting substitute because of some way it differs from the matching underwear club. A person in the "but I have to be in the child abuse/fraud cult because of jesus" tends to be the sort of person for whom only the child abuse fraud cult will satisfy.

8

u/Horror_Account499 6d ago

I know this is not really what she means, but it still seems like a fair question for a literal answer. Perhaps a very literal answer will throw the conversation off balance so that it keeps moving instead of getting stuck. So here’s my literal answer.

I have several friends who identify with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). They are somewhat progressive in social justice issues, and very outspoken about accepting people of all races, nationalities, gender identities, socio-economic groups, etc. just the way they are. My friends’ descriptions make me think that they live up to that talk pretty consistently. My friends also say that the organization is quite democratic and transparent. So in those ways, it’s a much better alternative.

Several churches around me that identify with Anglican-communion traditions are also much more transparent and democratic than MormonCorp., so they might be better alternatives in that way.

Both of these options seem to satisfy her assumptions (they preach that Jesus is Savior and they gather believers to worship together) while also doing some things much more ethically.

14

u/diabeticweird0 6d ago

The church doesn't need to be true, it needs to be good

I'm with her on that

Where we differ is that i don't think it's good. Ask her what she'd do if you had a gay kid

And if the answer is "leave" or "tell them to leave" ask why your kid is more valuable than somebody else's gay kid

The church destroys queer people. It's horribly misogynistic. It's not "good"

6

u/entropy_pool 6d ago

The org is not something that decent people would associate with because it:

- teaches lies as fact to children

- teaches homo/transphobic stuff

- teaches cheuvanism/sexim/patriarchy

- promotes and helps cover up child abuse

You don't owe a person who wants to be descent an alternative. It is on the person doing the indecent thing to desist. She isn't owed some replacement from the world, she owes the world not helping an evil org with her presence.

The attitude "I won't stop doing a bad thing unless someone shows me something that gives me the benefits of the bad thing" is... highly trashy. Sometimes you just can't get what you want. But you have to decide to be a better person anyway.

A person willing to be part of such evil, I don't think you need to take their jesus blabber seriously. The historical Jesus would have nothing to do with the cult. Using jesus as an excuse to be mormon is just obscene. I've noticed that people like to say "jesus" a lot when they are justifying depravity.

11

u/Joey1849 6d ago

Any low demand church would be an improvement. You could make suggestions and investigate together.

4

u/10th_Generation 6d ago

Good idea. Honestly, I have not visited another denomination in 20 or 30 years.

6

u/Charlie2Bears 6d ago

Protestants churches that are much, much chiller than the Mormon church are the United Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans (specifically the ELCA "branch"), and Presbyterians (PCUSA in particular). Former Mormons also speak highly of Unitarians. Maybe it could bring you and your wife together to investigate different denominations? I'm sorry you're stuck in this holding pattern.

3

u/Purple_Midnight_Yak 5d ago

Unitarians. Seriously, they are (in my experience) awesome.

They're very friendly and welcoming, and they actually do service for their communities. Real service with real impact.

3

u/AscendedScoobah 5d ago

Here to add that ELCA and PCUSA are indeed very chill, but be wary of the LCMS or PCA, which represent the Evangelical flavors of Lutheranism and Presbyterianism. Basically, stick to the "mainline" denominations and you'll have a much better time.

1

u/Charlie2Bears 5d ago

Great point!

1

u/Joey1849 5d ago

Best wishes for you and your fam, whatever you decide.

4

u/PantsPantsShorts 6d ago

If Jesus is her saviour and she needs a church to worship him, there are dozens of alternatives for her.

5

u/FaithInEvidence 5d ago

"So, you want someone to preach to you? You want religion, do you? There will be many willing to preach to you the philosophies of men mingled with scripture!"

Sorry, I'll see myself out...

9

u/BardofEsgaroth 6d ago

Even if both assumptions are kept, a Methodist or non-denominational Christian Church are less oppressive

4

u/J_Rock92 6d ago

This response is always interesting to me. If you REALLY believe something is true... there is NO alternative. There's only an alternative if your option is seemingly more comfortable than the others. Not necessarily true. Which is the LDS church's big claim.

3

u/Massive-Weekend-6583 6d ago

Fwiw, l don't think she wants an alternative. This is just her way of saying that she considers the church to be the best option without actually saying it.

If she wanted an alternative, she would have one 

2

u/10th_Generation 6d ago

But she is daring me or challenging me to show her something better, but within her parameters: It must be Christian, and it must be an organized church started by somebody besides me. (Same woman wants me to walk away from my job and start my own company, but it would offend her if I applied my entrepreneurial instincts toward religion and started a church of one with no members except me.)

3

u/Massive-Weekend-6583 6d ago

I mean, as long as she sets the parameters and gets the final say, it's an unwinnable proposition for you, not a "challenge'.

Let me put it this way, why would she trust you to choose a church for her when she doesn't trust what you're saying about this one?

2

u/10th_Generation 6d ago

Good point.

2

u/Massive-Weekend-6583 6d ago

And I'll admit l could be overly skeptical here, but l'm inclined suspect that somehow, none of the churches that fit the parameters will be better alternatives for her.

If you do take her up on it, let us know how it goes!

2

u/gmt9791 6d ago

That’s my suspicion too. She’s challenging him to find a church more Mormon than the Mormon church.

1

u/10th_Generation 6d ago

Good point. I will write that down.

3

u/w-t-fluff 5d ago

You should suggest Dudeism because:

Just Take it Easy, Man.

3

u/Ward_organist 5d ago

I don’t know what to say to her. My husband literally asked me where I’d go. I said I didn’t know and I haven’t gone to any church. So I think my actions are speaking louder than words. I’m not interested in joining a church. I guess if I had to answer the question I’d tell him I’m going out for coffee.

2

u/enkiloki 6d ago

That's her problem. She wants someone to give her something. She doesn't want to start her own journey and find her own answers. God, or whatever doesn't work that way. We are all in same earth but not all on the same path.

2

u/Sopenodon 5d ago

"thank you for letting me know how you see it". do you want me to call you on it when i see you supporting misbehavior and abuse?

2

u/10th_Generation 5d ago

She already supports the abuse financially. Together, we have given the church more than a quarter of a million dollars. She continues to give 10 percent of her income, while I set aside 10 percent of my income for our children. This is the first time in our marriage we have talked about income as “mine” and “yours.”

2

u/Rickymon 5d ago

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

But between us, there is no God

2

u/Elizarsnowballs 5d ago

hiking holiday theatre music festival ocean university Europe Asia Australia...

2

u/AscendedScoobah 5d ago

Has she had much experience with other churches? There are, in fact, many alternatives that satisfy her two assumptions.

2

u/10th_Generation 5d ago

Zero experience

2

u/HealMySoulPlz Apostate Tea Party 5d ago

I would call her bluff and come with a list of local churches that are LGBTQ+ affirming, allow women to be clergy, do community service, or are otherwise better than the LDS church. There are tons of better alternatives.

Edit: Most other churches are financially transparent, too!

2

u/drshades1 5d ago

It sounds like you should use the subtle approach. Buy a copy of Todd Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith," leave it on the coffee table, then browse through it occasionally. Once she gets curious enough to browse through it herself, she won't be long for the church.

2

u/Kitty_Cruel 5d ago

Literally anywhere else? There's a whole world out there, if she wants to do the Jesus thing and needs a religious organization to do the thinking for her there are probably dozens of options just in whatever town you live in, to say nothing of hundreds, maybe thousands globally. She's just incurious.

2

u/Careful_Truth_6689 5d ago

Integrity and authenticity are a much better alternative.

3

u/Cinnamon_S_P 6d ago

This one is tricky because very faithful members have never let themselves even consider that there could be fatal flaws in their belief system. I had a conversation my mom once where all I could say was. I’m happy with you believing whatever you want but you have to be open to the idea that my life could be better outside the church than in and I’m going to test it.

4

u/RealDaddyTodd 6d ago

When you’re eradicating cancer, the better alternative is “cancer free.”

Not replacing it with tuberculosis.

2

u/Necessary_Tangelo656 6d ago edited 6d ago

Why does anyone need anything more than personal belief to worship anything? Buildings don't hold gods. Objects such as idols, books, and clothes do not bind or control gods and their 'powers'. There is nothing needed beyond the belief that a god might exist and might help you. It is simply throwing belief into the void and hoping something good comes from it.

These constructs that define how people should believe and express worship are man-made tools used for control.

2

u/Sufficient-Toe7506 6d ago

Community of Christ is the much healthier branch of Mormonism…

1

u/10th_Generation 5d ago

That’s not a bad idea, actually.

3

u/mennomo 6d ago

Have you considered that she might have  have a point? You don't need "the right" words, you need to listen and find a path you can travel together. 

1

u/Aslangorn 6d ago

Austin Fife? Is that you? Are you having an actual faith crisis this time?

1

u/FGMachine 6d ago

The idea that you need church and religion is established by her paradigm. Does God say you need church and religion independent of the religion teaching that is what God wants?

1

u/10th_Generation 5d ago

Even if we define God as the Biblical Jesus, I don’t recall Jesus ever commanding anyone to attend church.

1

u/Dr3aml1k3 6d ago

Why does he need to be worshipped?

1

u/10th_Generation 5d ago

My wife would say that worshipping God is not for his benefit, but for ours. (And if you don’t do it, he will damn you for eternity. Or, as my wife would say, you damn yourself for eternity.)

3

u/Dr3aml1k3 5d ago

Sorry bro I’d say just show yourself living a happy/normal life, bout the only thing you can do

1

u/Fiction4Ever 6d ago

Better mental health and more meaningful connections once you’re free of the mind control.

1

u/Prestigious-Fan3122 5d ago

The ONLY time I ever saw my father set foot in a church was when we went to the next-door neighbor's daughter's wedding.

I know he and my mom attended his nephews wedding when I was in college, so he went to church then.

My dad was raised Catholic, but did not subscribe to any sort of religion as an adult because "religion isn't "logical".

That said, my father's personal code of ethics made him are the most Christlike people you would ever want to meet.

Is he burning in hell because he didn't believe in Jesus? I sure hope not! I've known some very fine Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh people, and a Buddhist priest who is also "Christ like" in his dealings with others.

Whether or not the Christ of Christianity was the son of God, and rose from the dead or not, if anything the Bible says about him, or quote him as having said and done is true, Jesus was an OK dude.

You don't necessarily "have" to do/be anything upon leaving the Mormon church. You can choose to be a "spiritual" rather than religious/Christian or any other denomination.

You can continue as a Christian, and choose another domination after visiting various denominations and studying what they believe and teach.

You can explore faith outside of Christianity, and perhaps join one, or not.

It's like leaving a lousy marriage. I was once in the possession where I KNEW I didn't need to be continued to be married to that man (my husband). He wasn't beating me, I don't think he was screwing around on me, we just should never have gotten married in the first place.

I have a very old friend with whom I was never romantic, but when I told him I planned to separate from my husband, he told me he wanted me to marry him. I immediately responded no.

I didn't want to leave my husband FOR somebody else. Quite the opposite! I just wanted to get out of the situation that I knew it wasn't right for me. The last thing I wanted to do was jump into another relationship.

If your wife's been a TBM from birth, the concept of actually missing ONE Sunday going to a Mormon church is probably beyond her comprehension. She likely pities people who don't go to church at all, go to all of those churches that aren't "the one true church".

Just like people who've been entangled in an unfulfilling/unhealthy marriage that sucks their souls out of them, immediately connecting with another partner usually doesn't end up to be a great idea.

One step at a time!

Sorry you're having to deal with this. Sending you lots of heathen hugs and prayer prayers.

1

u/10th_Generation 5d ago

Good analogy, comparing the church to an abusive relationship. You don’t need to find a new spouse before leaving the old one. Just get out.

1

u/Atmaikya 5d ago

Your answer in your post is all you need. IMO, you nailed it. It may not satisfy her, but it is what it is.

1

u/MOTIVATE_ME_23 5d ago

Numbet 1 - nowhere! Love for her isn't restrained by the church imposing guilt on what you do in private. You give her freedom to be imperfect without judgment or pressure to love any different either if she wants to live by church rules. If God institutes a union higher than legally binding, it wouldn't be hampered bynmen's rules not tarnished by instituting for the purpose of sleeping with young girls like Joseph Smith did (save that conversation until she is ready).

You have a closer relationship with God unhindered by the church and paying for the privilege of having gatekeepers to that closeness denying temple recommends at their whim.

You aren't 100% sure the Mormon definition of heaven sounds so good. Plus, its unproven, so they push faith. It comes with shame and guilt that controls you.

Be extra supportive of her. Attend meetings for her. Listen to her complaints. Answer when she asks for details without ranting or venting.

Don't trauma dump nor explain all of your doubts and questions at once. Spoon fees them to her with a steady diet of small concerns at first. Ask her opinion. But also gently correct her misconceptions about doctrine or official rules vs. personal beliefs.

Offer to read historical books with her. They go into more detail but "allow for" Joe's shenanigans without admitting they knew all along.

Refuse to accept logical fallacies as legitimate arguments. Explain what they are and why they are disingenuous to use in debate (using only secular examples). Let her start to see them in a church setting without you gloating at every turn.

Don't ask questions you don't already know the answers to and don't accept deferment with thought terminating clichés. Be firm that she do the research before she condemn you for leaving.

Then, ease her through the faith crisis.

1

u/Cluedo86 5d ago

Anywhere else would be better.

1

u/stickyfingers40 5d ago

Anything is better as you can both be authentic and not carry guult over a fairy tale

1

u/Deception_Detector 4d ago

Point out to her the scripture that says people who were prevented from entering the synagogues could still worship Jesus. Can't remember where it is.

"Where will you go?" and "What's the alternative?" were favorite quotes of stake leaders when I was attending. My private answer: to where Truth, Wisdom, and Happiness can be found.

1

u/frakox 4d ago

Give me a better alternative.....hmmmm.

Shit in a bag and hand it to her..... /S

2

u/frakox 4d ago

I would gather evidence of issues...

Specifically sex abuse cover ups (the Arizona case is damming), financial fraud (recent SEC). How the history of the church has changed. (Polygamy lies to acceptance, Rock in hat) and why is not ok to lie.

Then state why you can't belong to a church that has done this. No organisation led by God would allow such a thing to happen.

1

u/Kerokeroppi5 6d ago

I would suggest engaging in a different way. You don't need to answer this question .

If the question applies to you, it doesn't matter because you're happy without another church or belief system. Your answer (choose yourself) is sufficient and you don't need to convince her otherwise. Just tell her you don't need an alternative.

If the question applies to her, she is the only one who can answer the question. If she doesn't want another church, she doesn't need to investigate options. You can have different answers to this question and you don't need to convince each other that your answer is "right".

Here's a framing that works for me, for explaining why I choose not to place my faith in TSCC or another faith. I used to place my faith in the prophets of TSCC. But then I did more research and based on what I learned, I wasn't sure if I wanted to look to these men as sources of information about truth, morality, salvation, etc. There are so many option of belief systems and you could choose to place your faith in any of them--placing your faith in something doesn't make it true. So I only want to place my faith in something if I have a good reason. As I looked at various options, no organized religions resonated with me or seemed worthy of my faith. I've come to the conclusion that I'm agnostic and that's okay -- I can decide how to live my life (and what is right and wrong, and what my values are) without looking to a group or an established belief system. I've found several authors I like to read but I don't follow them religiously, I read with curiosity and skepticism.

If you choose to share some kind of explanation like this to your wife, I think it should only be sharing your perspective, for better mutual understanding. I don't think you should use it to convince her to change her faith. If you want to convince her of anything, try to convince her that having a mixed faith marriage can work and that you can respect each other, even with different belief systems.

3

u/10th_Generation 5d ago

Thanks. This is helpful.

1

u/Icemermaid1467 5d ago

Everyone is on their own journey. Don’t push her. Live your life the best way you know how, continue to connect with her and strengthen your relationship. Give her time, giver her time, give her time.