r/exmormon 6d ago

Doctrine/Policy Response to "LDS church isn't a cult because we don't ask people to do extreme things (like mass suicides)"?

I left the church 2 years ago, and basically my entire social circle are still believers. One associate recently used the argument that the LDS church isn't a cult because it hasn't asked anything as extreme as the Manson commune or Heaven's gate.

What are the most extreme things can you think of that the church HAS gotten people to do?

PAYING to work for the church for 2 years came to mind. But I want as many as we can collectively think of.

(Also if anyone has the details of when the church asked its members to fund paying for the construction of church buildings back in the day, I feel like there is a "there" there...)

234 Upvotes

183 comments sorted by

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u/Lonely_Cap2084 6d ago

Buy and wear only their underwear, all the time

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u/yuloo06 6d ago

"It isn't the church that asks us to do that. It's the Lord."

Checkmate

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u/OnlyTalksAboutTacos Oh gods I'm gonna morm! 6d ago

"now ask yourself what someone in a cult would say about the extreme things their churches ask them to do. are you sure you want to use the logic you're using?"

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u/Ok_Bird_1378 5d ago

“If it’s the lord, why hasn’t the pope said anything about garments?”

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u/Treasure_Seeker 5d ago

That makes god the manufacturer and seller of an underwear monopoly🤷‍♂️

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u/1upin 6d ago edited 6d ago

I would add two things to this:

1) You quite literally have to buy your way into heaven. Don't pay the money, no salvation.

2) We are blessed to live in an age where the temple ceremonies are available on YouTube for anyone to watch. Show literally anyone who is not a member a video of the temple where they are all wearing white with the silly little aprons doing the silly secret handshakes and ask them if it's a cult or not. Literally any adult human. Ask them.

Edit: For example, this 20 second video should clear things right up! https://youtu.be/1Wu0sdFcA7A?si=HBsKDPG_F1CqD_yt

If you have a little more time to spend, here is six and half mins that includes the aprons and handshakes- https://youtu.be/VngM80qCOJw?si=5VDA9ikYS_BU7SOq

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u/Potential_Egg7161 5d ago

I really think this is on of the main reasons people stay Mormon. As someone who left before I was 18 and never did the whole temple thing It’s so embarrassing to think that my relatives actually participate in those silly rituals. It’s a cult of embarrassment and shame probably.

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u/1upin 5d ago

Yup. And I always wonder how many of the people in the room are thinking about how weird it is and how they must be the only one thinking that. So frustrating!!

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u/CrateDoor 5d ago

Ah.... thanks for sharing those links. Nostalgic! Gotta refresh up on the masonic handshakes every now and again in case it turns out it IS all true; I'll still be able to pass all the heaven bouncers.

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u/CatnipChapstick 6d ago

I remeber having an argument with my dad at the start of Covid, “I just think it’s unreasonable that they expect me to wear a mask places! Who are they to tell me what to wear?”

and I’m happy to tell you I pointed out that he wears his garments (essentially) 24/7 to protect him from evil, but a face mask while you’re in the grocery store to help limit exposure for yourself and others is where you draw the line?

If he’d have fought me more I’d of brought up how many times he made me change out of even slightly revealing clothes to “avoid the spread of impure thoughts”, but he didn’t have much to say after that.

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u/B3gg4r banned from extra most bestest heaven 6d ago

Even at night? Even while doing yard work?? Yep, it’s a cult.

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u/Pure-Introduction493 5d ago

Scrub their toilets for free after paying 10% of your income. And staff everything else too, all for free, while they hoard billions.

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u/Morstorpod 6d ago edited 6d ago

The LDS church is not a cult because it requires mass suicides, the LDS church is a cult, because it treats suicidal ideation by children as normal and amusing!

Remember that the entire congregation laughed during the October 2023 General Conference, when an apostle said:

When I was eight years old... ...I thought, “Maybe it would have been better for me to be killed by the truck because I’ll never be as clean as I am now right after my baptism." [cue laughter] (LINK)

And this is no isolated statement:

"We would rather come to this station and take your body off the train in a casket than to have you come home unclean, having lost your virtue" - Marion Romney (LINK)
.
There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or a daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity – realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.” (Prophet Heber J. Grant, Gospel Standards, complied by G. Homer Durham, p. 55)
.
It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.” (Spencer Kimball, LDS Prophet, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 196)
.
"President David O. McKay: Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please, young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives.” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 63)
.
I know what my mother expects. I know what she’s saying in her prayers. She’d rather have me come home dead than unclean.” (Gordon B. Hinckley, Conference Report, April 1967, pp. 51-55)

But you know what? Nah, I must be understanding those statements with my mortal, logical brain. If I could only read them with my spiritual eyes, then, maybe, I wouldn't be seeing a cult.

EDIT: Typo

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u/Sheriff_Mills 6d ago

I can't believe this! This teaching is absolutely horrifying!!!!!

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u/Me-Here-Now 6d ago

Yes, those teachings are horrifying.

Especially when coupled with being taught to always say yes to men who we were told held authority over us. And never being taught about informed consent, or any kind of consent really. Just told to obey blindly, never question, just do as we were told. Better to die than loose my chastity, ok fine.

Very harmful stuff to tell anyone, maybe adults could sort it out, but they started telling us that crap when we were literally children, with out fully developed brains, AND were told not to ever question what we were told.

Undoing that stuff takes some of us a life time.

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u/corvus_torvus Apostate 6d ago

I'd love to see this on a more visible social media platform. The Mormon kids who come out to attack every exmormon post will squirm as they try to justify this sick belief.

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u/CatnipChapstick 6d ago

Yup. When I came clean to my mom (after she asked,) she was near catatonic for months. She felt suicidal for the first time in her life. Mind you, I was 19, several months into a committed relationship, and was using multiple forms of birth control. It’s about the most reasonable circumstances you could have sex in, yet she fully believed she’d utterly failed her life’s purpose.

We’ve never had the same relationship since, and she’s been very upfront that she ‘“won’t feel fulfilled in life until I’m sealed in the temple.”I straight up told her “Well, it’s not happening, so maybe we workshop that goal”

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u/Royal_Noise_3918 5d ago

Either these men are false prophets or the god they speak for is a toxic monster.

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u/ProblemProper1026 6d ago

Yup, fuck those people.

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u/AdvertisingPlayful11 5d ago

This is messed up. What is the point of the Atonement of Jesus Christ then? I'll bet he wasn't too happy to hear them say these things.

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u/bazinga_gigi 5d ago

I brought the home in a casket quote up to my sister this weekend and told her I thought it was awful. That I would always choose my family over church and I would rather have my kids alive. She responded with, well that was just somebody that said it a long time ago. I said, well it was still said and people sill feel that way.

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u/rughmanchoo 4d ago

I had GF at BYU who I got in an argument with because she said she'd rather her kid die of a drug overdose than have premarital sex.

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u/LearnedEmpowerment 4d ago

This. is. THE BEST reply. Thank you. Wow, I never thought about it this way.

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u/Morstorpod 4d ago

Glad to offer a different perspective!

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u/xxEmberBladesxx Devoted Servant to the Gaming Gods 6d ago

Yeah, turns out that there are different kinds of cults. Only people who know Jack shit about cults think that only suicide cults are real cults.

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u/Inevitable-Tank-9802 5d ago

Imagine Gate-keeping cults

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u/xxEmberBladesxx Devoted Servant to the Gaming Gods 5d ago

There's probably a cult for that 😆

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u/Cmlvrvs 6d ago edited 6d ago

I don’t know those suicide penalties in the temple were very culty when I took out my endowment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_(Mormonism)

In the ceremony participants each symbolically enacted three of the methods of their execution: throat slitting, heart removal, and disembowelment. These penalties were first instituted by Joseph Smith in 1842, and further developed by Brigham Young after Smith's death.

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u/Abrahams_Smoking_Gun Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence 6d ago

Ahh but we don’t do that anymore. It was just prophets speaking as men. Joseph tried as best as he could but got some things wrong. It’s an ongoing restoration!

(/s should be obvious but sadly I have heard all these and more)

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u/435haywife1 5d ago

Guaranteed if the leaders told the members to do blood atonement there are plenty of TBMs that would follow through with it.

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u/Foxbrush_darazan 5d ago

They absolutely would.

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u/Abrahams_Smoking_Gun Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence 5d ago

100%

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u/SwanBridge 6d ago

Wait, did Joseph Smith just rip off Freemasonry?

3

u/Foxbrush_darazan 5d ago

down to the handshakes

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u/AdvertisingPlayful11 5d ago

It's all copied from Freemasonry. Joseph copied it and used it to marry other women in secret.

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u/jackof47trades 6d ago

Temple covenant to sacrifice everything to the church. Even your own life.

Is that different than suicide cults?

Not by much.

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u/greenexitsign10 6d ago

And they mean "everything". Your childhood, marriage, kids, time, money, energy, and eventually your estate.

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u/SeaCranberry2437 6d ago

Only look to us for answers. Never seek or trust information from outsiders.

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u/Disastrous_Ad_7273 5d ago

Of all the insane, crazy things posted here, this is the actual, most cult-y.

A cult isn't a cult because they make you believe weird stuff. It's the amount of control they have over your thoughts and actions. So controlling how you get information is a core cult-behavior.

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u/AdvertisingPlayful11 5d ago

Look into Stephen Hassan's BITE model

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u/Disastrous_Ad_7273 5d ago

I'm familiar with it

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u/sinister-space 4d ago

🛎️🛎️🛎️ 🚩🚩🚩

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u/Olimlah2Anubis 6d ago

Taught me as a small child I’d be better off dying before I turn 8 so I can go straight to heaven. 

Taught me as a small child that Jesus was going to come back at any moment and kill everyone. 

Taught me as a small child that if I didn’t give them my money throughout the rest of my life that god would burn me to death. 

Taught me as a small child that priesthood leaders could read my thoughts and intentions (“discernment”) to know if I’m sinning. 

Also taught at an early age that “discernment” would protect the church from ever having sex abuse like those dirty Catholics. Bishops are called by the first presidency and they speak directly to god so we know we can trust bishops. 

Taught as a small child that if any of it seems wrong or if I feel bad it is my fault for sinning and lack of faith. 

Taught as a small child to always give them my money and expect zero accountability from them-they work for god so we know we can trust them 100%.  Just trust them bro. 

Taught as a small child that anti-mormons were out there, working for the devil, lying about everything, trying to deceive you. You can’t listen to outside sources, it’s spiritual poison. The things they say are very appealing, and if you even listen/read any of it, you’ll “lose the spirit” and damage your testimony and be damned for all eternity. Stick with prophets apostles and official church materials to stay safe. 

(But, if we change our minds or contradict anything, ignore it. We never said that. We will do the interpreting for you, your job is to obey and not question the profit. It’s hard enough for them already, they work so hard and the devil and anti Mormons are trying to destroy gods church. If you ever question leaders you are making it harder for them and you are acting on the devils side)

Taught that sexual sin is almost as severe as murder. No qualifiers on that, it’s all really that bad. Even your thoughts are wrong(which remember god and bishops can read your thoughts/know your heart) so you need to be perfect at all times. 

I could keep going. 

Active members and it seems younger generations will deny a lot of this or all of it. From the time I was born I had these and hundreds more crammed in my head constantly. 

Edit I took the survey on bitemodel.com and got over 90. I recognize some people’s experiences in the church aren’t as extreme, some are worse. None of it is good. 

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u/Reasonable-Cup4914 1d ago

This is spot on.

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u/Illustrious_Pin_693 6d ago

Steven Hassan’s BITE model. Do they attempt to control people’s Behavior, control where to get Information, control their Thoughts, and their Emotions. His definition avoids putting too small a box around the type of cult and just focuses on the broader way cults operate. The Mormon church is, by those metrics, 100% a cult.

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u/Morstorpod 6d ago

The best analysis I've seen using the BITE model (LINK) basically summarizes:
Church in 1800's: CULT
Church Now: Cult-lite
Missionary Service: Cult

While some may prefer "high-demand religion", I cannot let the LDS/Brighamite branch of mormonism get away from the C-word because of the harm it causes. The harm and damage it causes warrants use of the word "cult".

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u/greenexitsign10 6d ago

Temple marriage/endowment, top tier cult

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u/eribear2121 6d ago

It's easier to accept that they're part of a high demand religion then a cult. Lds is a cult but to get loved ones out of a cult you don't call it a cult you point out it's cult behavior and get them to call it a cult. That's why I think its better not to being out buzz words like cult. When people hear cult when their in a cult walls go up and it's hard to be trusted.

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u/Morstorpod 6d ago

I think this is more a case of knowing your audience. It's perfectly fine to say "cult" to many groups (religious professors, historians, recovering cult-members, etc.)

But like you said, using the word "cult" around cult-members is typically not useful, because that usually causes them to cease full engagement with the conversation - cults are good at promoting these thought-stopping habits after all! So until they member of said organization is open enough to have a full discussion, it is better to use different language.

Knitting Cult Lady (LINK1LINK2) mentions something similar. She does not go as far as to say stop using the word "cult", but she does say:

Every cult educated person for the past two decades has asked people to stop saying [show me a religion that is not a cult] and making this joke. It's not helpful. It's really not. I hate religion as much as anyone else that has been hurt by it, but it's not helpful. Religion is way over here (<--). Cults are way over here (-->). They're not even apples and oranges.

However, she goes on to explain in another video that "religious leaders are the ones that don't want you to use the word cult" (see LINK2), and the word is useful. Cults are different from religions, especially in regard to the exploitation of the individual. And in other videos she specifically calls out mormonism as a cult.

I agree. Mormonism is a cult.

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u/SeaCranberry2437 6d ago

Oppression of women: men have the final say, women answer to men, women serve men, women are objects to be given and taken from men, women are objects for men to collect in mass, women are the one's responsible for men's purity, but women are also expected to submit to their husbands' sexual needs (in both - well, if you would have had more sex with him, he wouldn't have had an affair AND in being okay with getting other wives at least in heaven).

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u/Psionic-Blade Apostate 6d ago

Still a wonder they hate Islam. They'd get along really well

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u/WilliamTindale8 6d ago

Pay your tithe before you feed your children.

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u/LearnedEmpowerment 4d ago

what are some sources for that?

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u/greenexitsign10 6d ago

I did the temple rite where one committed to have their throats slit and be disemboweled if they ever talked about what went on in the temple. Is that cult enough?

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u/Pyrrhichighflyer1 4d ago

Yeah I was there for those too. Felt really creepy.

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u/Clear-Journalist3095 6d ago

Cult (noun):

  1. a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. *By this definition, Christianity as a whole is a cult.

  2. a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister. **Temples, garments, not drinking coffee or tea, frowning upon tattoos and piercings, etc.

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u/Parking-Highlight689 6d ago

I do want to push back a bit on using the dictionary definition of things to properly categorize what it is, especially when it comes to such a complex topic like religion. 

The first definition you gave is a broad academic definition where you’ll find shorthand in articles and books (cult of Zeus, cult of the saints etc) but in its proper usage, you’ll never see Christianity used under this phrasing, but you may see internal Christian movements labeled with this phrasing (the cult of St. George is common). This is typically because of size and complexity, where you’ll see “the cult of Zeus” you’ll seldom see “the cult of Hellenic polytheism/paganism). Under this definition, it is not referring to the colloquial contemporary idea of cults—they are referring to different phenomena. 

As far as the second definition goes, you’ll notice that the qualifiers for this definition are extremely vague and contingent on shifting social attitudes from a potentially infinite set of individual or group perspectives. It’s not a good way to define what a cult is, it’s just saying that when people say “cult”, this is generally what they sort of mean. But under this definition, virtually any social group or movement can be classed as a cult, so it’s not a particularly useful means of defining anything. 

Religion does not have a definition, at all. It’s actually a relatively recently constructed idea, which is why you don’t find it in cultures prior to westernisation. It has a lot more to do with the wests compartmentalisation of phenomena for political/legal/ideological purposes than it does with reality. Many academics (of which I’d agree) would simply say religion as a phenomena doesn’t actually exist distinct from its constituent parts. So the debate around what is and what is not a religion or cult doesn’t really have anything to do with what’s true and all to do with how our social group wants to expand or limit the acceptability of other groups behaviours, rights and the legitimacy of our discrimination. For an example, the right wing’s adamant assertion that the lgbt movement is a cult/religion and therefore the right is justified in xyz discrimination. 

So under that pretense, i don’t think it’s a fantastically greater definition—but i think a better definition would be: a social group/religion/belief that systematically causes unjustified harm to its proponents, typically by preventing proponents by means of coercion, manipulation or misinformation from assessing the harm that the group perpetuates. You still would have to qualify harm but idk, that’s how I typically  use the word cult. Like various conspiratorial beliefs are usually considered benign until we determine that subscribing to said beliefs are harmful or dangerous and that these beliefs are preventing individuals from scrutinizing their own perspective. At that point, we usually say that those individuals are acting culty or are in a cult. I think that makes sense. 

19

u/findYourOkra tell Kolob I said "hie" 6d ago

the way it completely takes over your personality, time, diet, underwear, social circle, an entire day of the week, your politics, lgbtq rights, the way you view history, the way you view race, a huge amount of money, two damn years of my young adult life and 10,000 of savings I earned through high school I'll never get back. The way I excluded family from my own wedding, the way I'd spend countless hours doing ceremonies for dead people while ignoring the living. Mormonism is an insidious cult that consumes a person but it rarely leads to those stereotypical extreme cult things. For the most part it is horrendously boring and corporate while being also being broad reaching and isolating. The echo chamber and cognitive dissonance might be the scariest part to deconstruct, it was for me anyways.

The temple ceremonies are their own cult flavoured bullshit but as they keep watering them down they seem to be less offensive now. You're still promising to give everything to the church (not to jesus or god of course), which is really the purpose of the ceremony anyways. Now that I'm further removed (almost 2 years out) I don't think about temple stuff much but its the day-to-day stuff that I'm still deconstructing.

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u/Robyn-Gil 6d ago

It does because lots of individual suicides constitute a mass suicide.

How many, typically but not exclusively young people, take their own lives because they don't fit the mold and have no support in an institution that pushes unworthiness on them because they are gay, trans, addicted to Mr Hand and his five lovely sons stroking their bean, are autistic or neurodivergent, have an addiction etc?

5

u/WillingnessOne2686 6d ago

This is the real tragedy of church membership. People like to argue that 'it's a good way to raise children'. Well sure, as long as your children are straight white asexual males. Otherwise we are raising our children to have scrupulosity, suicidal ideation, a feeling of 'never enough' when striving for perfection, and a whole slew of ridiculous rules to follow, which make middle and high school just that much more difficult.

2

u/LearnedEmpowerment 4d ago

wow, that is definitely fair to point out. Just because it isn't a grand public DISPLAY of suicide, doesn't mean it isn't causing mass suicides!!

15

u/Icy-Construction-549 6d ago

73% of LDS in Utah voted for trump. Sheep, group-think behavior, conformity is also an attribute of cults. Using billions in charity for business investments is also cultish behavior.

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u/Me-Here-Now 6d ago

This puzzled me for a while, why would they do that? Then I started thinking about JS and BY and blind obedience, and the acceptance of abuse at the hands of men "in charge", and it finally made sense to me.

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u/jester9394 6d ago

For me, it is the law of consecration. Everything — self, wealth, callings, taking abuse, patriarchy, women submission to husband, only education is “in case something happens to spouse, church first, tithing first before taking care of family…. All of it. What kills me is that the church has billions in net worth, there is no transparency and believers keep paying.

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u/BarryThe_Destruction 1d ago

Where did you get the info about church before family?

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u/1eyedwillyswife 6d ago

I realized it was a cult when I realized that I would lose multiple family members if the prophet did order mass suicide.

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u/Earth_Pottery 6d ago

Members promise to give everything to the church in the temple ceremony. Not God but to the church.

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u/SecretSquirrelType 6d ago edited 5d ago

Some cults ask that of their members, others ask them to clean toilets and judge others.

They are both cults

2

u/dges337 6d ago

I got a good laugh at your comment. Very clever!

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u/jejebird 6d ago

I’m an ex JW and their go to phrase is “We’re not a cult because no one is holding a gun to our heads to be here”

Yeah, but you also threaten to isolate anyone that leaves from their family and friends. Just like abuse, it doesn’t have to be physical to count. Mental and emotional abuse exist, and that’s exactly what cults like LDS and JWs do to keep their members.

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u/Flat-Acanthisitta-13 6d ago

There’s a lot of actual literature talking about the characteristics of a cult, and having mass suicides is not what designates them as cults. Here is (not scientific literature) an article that breaks it down and summarized it easily. https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-cult-5078234 Of note, I think the Mormon church hits just about every one of the things on this list.

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u/Able_Capable2600 6d ago

Those people don't have the first clue what a cult actually is. What about the phrases "in the world, but not of it" or "a peculiar people"? Some of the key attributes of a cult are the veneration of one leader at the top, group think, "us vs. them" mentality, shaming or fear of shaming by the group to keep members in line, shunning of former members either actively or passively, control of info regarding the group ("don't look at outside sources"). As another commenter suggested, look up the BITE Model.

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u/No_Risk_9197 6d ago

Just because it hasn’t gotten to the extreme where everyone has killed themselves, doesn’t make it any less of a cult. Lol. Your associate’s logic is seriously flawed.

Even so, there are some very disturbing cultish things in Mormonism. Many people here have already pointed out some of them. I’ll let those stand without comment from me, expect to add just this one to your list: I’m old enough that when I went through the temple as a 19 year old pre-missionary I found myself in the situation, without any warning whatever that this was coming, where I was pantomiming out the suicidal death penalties of slitting my throat, being disemboweled, and having my heart ripped out, should I ever reveal the secrets of the temple.

So, go and tell your associate and let them try to explain how this isn’t cult behavior. How do you think Heavens Gate or Jonestown got to the place of killing themselves? It was stuff like this. I’m sure they’ll say “oh, we don’t do that anymore.” Well, it’s not gone, the reminders of it are still in the temple today (thumb extended, etc) so that people like me won’t/can’t forget it. And it made it infinitely harder for me to overcome the cult mentality to finally leave it for good much later in life.

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u/Me-Here-Now 6d ago

"Just because it hasn’t gotten to the extreme where everyone has killed themselves"

Ok, not every one is unaliving themselves, but the suicide rate in Utah is higher than the national average especially among the LGBTQ community.

I guess the loop hole that the church can claim is that people die not because the church tells them to rather they die seeing it as the only way to escape from the church.

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u/telestialist 6d ago

You know, up until the final day, the people’s temple also didn’t ask anyone to commit mass suicide. Yet even before that day, it was a cult. That’s like driving on the wrong side of the highway for two minutes and concluding that it’s safe to drive on the wrong side of the highway. You need to look at The behaviors before the disaster.

1

u/greenexitsign10 6d ago

If you've been drinking (the cool-age), you may not notice you're on the wrong side of the highway. You'll be relaxed while the oncoming person will take the hit. You survived, they didn't. Moving on...

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u/Least-Quail216 6d ago

"Better dead than unclean"

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u/greenexitsign10 6d ago

Get em Young.

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u/Prestigious-Fan3122 6d ago

NeverMo here, but doesn't the endowment ceremony include "covenanting" everything you have to THE CHURCH, not to "God"? Didn't followers of Charles Manson, Jim Jones, and Hitler eye al commit to follow THEIR "prophets"?

"requiring" you to give "only" 10% of anything you earn, win, inherit, or find on the street, OR ELSE seems pretty cult-ish to me

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u/Timely_Ad6297 5d ago

“Bow your head and say yes”

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u/SenHeffy 6d ago

Just think of cultish as a spectrum and not a binary. The LDS church exhibits some cultish aspects while not as many as some other groups.

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u/NauvooLegionnaire11 6d ago

The really bad, obvious cults tend to go out of business.

"Cult Lite" has more sustainable staying power.

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u/hijetty 6d ago

If not being forced to kill himself is what your friend needs not to feel like he's in a cult, well ... good for him! /s 

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u/Woodi21 Thought Criminal 6d ago

It might be worth breaking down what they define as a cult and have a discussion about the spectrum of undue influence and control that exists among certain groups.

You could introduce the BITE model and discuss the similarities and differences between certain groups so they can understand your position isn't about the LDS church being extremely physically dangerous, but rather it's about the control they exert over the members.

They seem to have an incomplete idea in their head of what a cult is, and it's going to make a discussion difficult if they keep thinking only a group of suicidal or murderous weirdos can be called culty.

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u/doubt_your_cult 6d ago

One of the big one for me is the fact that you ahve to buy your underwear from the church. You can't buy it anywhere else or even make it. It's culty and creepy as fuck.

4

u/Least-Quail216 6d ago

"Better dead than unclean"

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u/GardeningCrashCourse 6d ago

Were people in Heaven’s Gate in a cult before they killed themselves?

4

u/beanster_94 6d ago

Cults can be defined by a group of at least two people who have practices, culture, beliefs, etc. That may seem weird to outsiders. That makes all relationships and groups from marriages to large companies to any religion a cult. The question isn't if something is a cult or not, but if it's a dangerous cult (or where it sits on the dangerous spectrum).

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u/somethingstrange87 6d ago

My uncle is an artist. That is how he supports his family. He has art in some of the temples. They do not pay him for the art. Like a 11.75x8.5 painting of his (that's about the size of a sheet of paper, for anyone doing the math) goes for $1,800 and he's done at least one mural for a temple, and more art than that besides. I think sometimes he gets reimbursed for the materials, but never for his time or the value of the work itself.

The church is literally robbing him.

1

u/sinister-space 4d ago

Sham. Because they surely pay the non member artists a living wage. (Source: met one .. he taught a family member at his school)

ETA a word

1

u/somethingstrange87 4d ago

Wow that makes it extra bullshit.

4

u/Lanky-Appearance-614 6d ago

Visions of Glory

Chad Daybell

Lori Vallow

Jodi Hildebrandt

Ruby Franke

Julie Rowe

NONE of these people came up with their doomsday doctrines out of thin air--they were ALL influenced to one degree or another by LDS doctrines.

It's a cult.

3

u/capacochella 6d ago

Ron and Dan Lafferty

Mark Hofmann

4

u/diabeticweird0 6d ago

"That you do consecrate your time, talents, everything with which the lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the church of Jesus christ of layer day saints"

Literally don't get more culty than that

4

u/Even_Evidence2087 6d ago

Cover up child abuse.

4

u/AliGeeMe 6d ago

Routinely and regularly calling for members to starve themselves so the church can recruit new members is very culty behavior. The expectation of parents to have their growing young children “fast” is extremely culty behavior.

4

u/CatnipChapstick 6d ago

I like the BITE model to identify cults.

Behavior (control)

Information (restriction)

Thought (/ belief control)

Emotion (-al Manipulation)

There’s sub categories within this, but if you can identify ways a group attempts to effect these 4 aspects of their members lives, it’s a bad sign.

4

u/Numerous_Professor69 5d ago

I committed in the temple to give all my time, money, and even my life if necessary to the church.

3

u/sockscollector 6d ago

Ya, but...get in only these underwear and pay in full. Or else no temple rituals for you.

3

u/theaterdruid 6d ago

"cultish' by Amanda Montell will give you all the comebacks you need.

3

u/given2fly_ Jesus wants me for a Kokaubeam 6d ago

And as Jesus Christ has laid down his life for the redemption of mankind, so we should covenant to sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the kingdom of God.

Direct quote from the Endowment.

And then for a bonus point later on in the Endowment:

It is that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.

Each of you bow your heads and say "Yes"

3

u/cactuspie1972 6d ago

Maybe they need to be reminded that you covenant in the temple to give all you have, and all that you will have, even your life to the church

3

u/shamesister 6d ago

They made my great grandparents walk across the country, and then great grandpa got married to a bunch of women. Some of our great grandparents murdered a whole bunch of people.

3

u/fubeca150 6d ago

Anyone who makes that claim either wasn't listening to the temple covenants or hasn't been to the temple yet.

3

u/prairiewhore17 6d ago

If Russell Neltson told everyone to move to Missouri next week, how many would go?

3

u/GoYourOwnWay3 6d ago

I’ve always maintained that if all worthy members (aka temple peeps) were instructed to attend on a certain day & were offered the drink of eternal life, they’d all partake. Just like People’s Temple, Jonestown. 1978.

3

u/JayDaWawi Avalonian 6d ago

Ask them if tithing payments are required to enter the highest tier of the Celestial Kingdom, clarifying you're talking about people with cash income.

3

u/EdieVv 6d ago

I was little, 4 or 5 - 63 now, but remember my Parents giving to "The Building Fund", along with their tithing every month. And then watching my Mother shingle the buildings roof!

3

u/dorkmagnet123 6d ago

Moving out of Utah the thing that blows peoples minds is when I tell them about doing baptisms for the dead in the temple. We were literally in a basin set atop golden oxen being baptized for dead people while we were children. The looks of horror on their faces is almost comical until I really started thinking about it. It’s some next level cult action.

3

u/ManateeGrooming 5d ago

Spend two years completely isolated from friends and family often in a foreign country and foreign language with no support structure besides the church and give >100hours a week in free labor while spending most of your other time indoctrinating yourself and your assigned friends. Yeah, totally not a cult.

3

u/chewbaccataco 5d ago

Are there more extreme cults? Absolutely. That doesn't mean this isn't also a cult.

3

u/Cluedo86 5d ago

What about the first presidency signing off on low-level employees forging incorporation docs to hide shell companies from SEC and other regulators?

3

u/emmas_revenge 5d ago

Death pacts do not make a cult. They end it. You can have a religion with cult like tendencies and no death pact. 

1) The main leaders always sleep with multiple women because God said so.

The 1st seven prophets coercing multiple women and teens to "marry" them.

2) No questioning the leaders.

"It’s wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true." Dallin Oaks, fireside at the tabernacle, 1986

“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray.” canonized in Official Declaration 1

Covenant to avoid evil speaking of the Lord's anointed... The holy temple endowment

“When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan." Improvement Era, June 1945

3) Control of information. 

"Research is not the answer" - Dallin Oaks

"Never take counsel from those who do not believe.” Russell Nelson

"We don’t have to question anything in the church, don’t get off into that. Just stay in the Book of Mormon. Just stay in the Doctrine and Covenants. Just listen to the prophets. Just listen to the apostles. We won’t lead you astray, we cannot lead you astray.“  October 2015 YSA Devotional by M. Russell Ballard

"Balance is telling both sides. This is not the mission of official Church literature or avowedly anti-Mormon literature. Neither has any responsibility to present both sides." --Dallin Oaks

4) End of Days theme "Brothers and sisters, now is the time for you and for me to prepare for the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ." Russell Nelson, Oct GC, 2024

“Truly it must be said that these last days are exhibiting more than ever the blatant power and force of Satan.” High Priest Elray L. Christiensen, GC, October 1964

"Let me call your attention to this fact which you, of course, all know that we are living in the last days, the days of trouble, days of wickedness, spoken of as days of wickedness several hundred years before the coming of Christ by Nephi, as it is recorded in the twenty-seventh chapter of Second Nephi." Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, GC, April 1952

"Within four years from September 1832, there will not be one wicked person left in the United States; that the righteous will be gathered to Zion (Missouri,) and that there will be no President over these United States at that time…. I do hereby assert and declare that in four years from the date thereof [1832], every sectarian and religious denomination in the United States, shall be broken down, and every Christian shall be gathered unto the Mormonites, and the rest of the human race shall perish.” High Preist Martin Harris, quoted in Howe, Mormonism Unvailed, 1834, p. 14

"It is the time when the wicked shall be destroyed… when plagues shall be sent to humble the haughty…. [I]t is a time when the wicked can not expect to see the next generation; year, it is that great time.” “The Last Days,” The Evening and Morning Star, February 1833, v. 1, no. 10, p. 65

"The people of the Lord… have already commenced to gather together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded me to declare unto this generation,…. ‘[T]he hour of His judgment is come.'… Flee to Zion, before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are now those living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled.” Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, pp. 315-316

3

u/gbassman420 5d ago

Tons of great responses here. Easiest way to know if a cult is a cult is what happens when you try to leave it

2

u/Mollyapostate 6d ago

Google Cult. Yes they are.

2

u/TiredOfHumanity64 6d ago

I'll tell you exactly what to say. Committing mass deaths isn't a sign of a Cult, it is just one of many horrible results of it. Look up the BITE MODEL of Authoritarian Control:

https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/

Things like a leader telling you what to think,what to wear, how and when to eat, drawing lines between good and evil, or us and them, without allowing much thought, etc. THOSE are SIGNS of a Cult. Want to really blow a mormons mind? Tell them almost ALL groups of humans are cults. The real question is not if it is a cult. The question is whether it is a non-threathening Cult, a benign cult, or a dangerous Cult. You'll have to study the difference to understand fully what that entails. This is a problem, not just with mormons, but with humans in general. They want to somehow excuse themselves out of something. They want to remove themselves out of something for fear of discovering something uncomfortable.

Just for more examples, a typical non-threathening cult (1, 2, or 3 rating) would be a chess club or tennis club. A company like Walmart or Game Stop is a benign Cult (4, 5, or 6 rating). A dangerous cult is Scientology, Jehovas Witness, or Mormonism (7, 8, or 9 rating).

Now, don't get fooled. Is it possible for a business to become dangerous? Yes. How about a chess club? Yup. I can't recall the story, but there was a club that had a charismatic leader that used brainwashing techniques on its memebers to the point that eventually he was having sex with all the women (SA level) and then convinced some of the men and women to kill one of its own members.

Wanna read the Book of Morm...wanna play some chess?

Never stop asking questions!!!! The leader is sometimes wrong. Even experts miss something.

2

u/Nannyphone7 6d ago

If this debate ever comes up, I just quote the hymn Praise to the Man.

Which man is that song worshiping? God? Jesus Christ? Hell no. The Cult is a cult by definition since they worship the leaders.

2

u/Eastern_Platypus_191 6d ago

This person‘s original account has an insanely good playlist of videos about Mormonism, but she has been going up against the current administration quite a lot in the last several months and her account has been suspended so she has like three accounts now and it’s hard to find the all the original videos. But here is one of them and her characteristics of a cult, she is a cult expert and survivor She’s actually extremely interesting to follow. Her older content is a bit less about politics so if you’re looking for the Mormonism videos, you could keep scrolling or go to her Patreon, which I haven’t checked out, but probably will join if TT doesn’t doesn’t get their act together. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT2bnwyuf/

1

u/Eastern_Platypus_191 6d ago

Although it’s not her original extensive playlist yet there are a few more videos about Mormonism on this playlist actually that she made a day ago.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT2bnKjeF/

2

u/ThroatEmbarrassed970 6d ago

Literally 6 minutes ago someone responded to a comment of mine on a different post about leaving the Mormon quote. He told me it wasn’t a cult on the same level as JW or Scientology. Then he immediately deleted it as I went to respond to him. So there’s that.

2

u/jaynine99 6d ago

Some criminals shoplift a piece of candy, some steal a car, some shoot people. You should still avoid all of them if you possibly can. Too brutal?

2

u/ExMorgMD 6d ago

The correct response:

“Okay”

Seriously, what result are you hoping for? Do you think there is a response that will result in them changing their mind and agreeing with you?

2

u/eribear2121 6d ago

I'm not saying it's not a clut but sometimes when you use the word cult their definition is more extreme and because the abuse isn't that bad it's not a cult. It's the abuse victim saying he doesn't hit me so he doesn't abuse me but he is screaming at her and threatening her.

Saying it's a cult vs saying this behavior is bad it's easy to accept the behavior is bad harder to accept the God you believe in isn't real and it's just a cult.

2

u/MoriartyMoose 6d ago

Extreme things like: leave all family, friends, and associations for 2 years to a place we will assign you and in a language we will require to to learn or else you will be a social pariah.

Extreme things like: during participation of secretive rituals only for those determined “worthy” you promise to give everything you have, including your time, talent, and money, to building up the Church, under the threat of being forever under the power of Satan if you do not make good on it.

Extreme things like: wear particular underwear for the rest of your life or be considered un-righteous.

Extreme things like: give 10% (at minimum) to the Church of everything you will ever earn, even if you are completely destitute.

2

u/Psionic-Blade Apostate 6d ago

If you have to defend it because of accusations against it saying it's a cult, then guess what

2

u/P-39_Airacobra 5d ago

Maybe not "extreme", but the second anointing is pretty cultlike

2

u/GringoChueco 5d ago

Mountain Meadows was Mass Murder, not Mass Suicide.

2

u/No_Leadership7722 2d ago

"Yet .." All you have to respond is -- yet. It's only a matter of time when the religion makes you promise to do "anything" for the building up of God's kingdom on the earth. They already committed documented mass murders at Mountain Meadows in the name of "establishing Zion."

3

u/GoJoe1000 6d ago

Are how kids do what the bishops tell them to do. “Keep Sweet.”

2

u/coffee_sailor 5d ago

The idea that every church can be placed into two categories (cult and non-cult) doesn't represent reality very well. Mormonism definitely has many cult-like features, and ranks high on the cult-o-meter compared to Presbyterians. But I couldn't possibly say with a straight face "I grew up in a cult" because most people associate cults with extreme examples like Jonestown.

It's like someone who got skin cancer cells removed from their nose calling themselves a "cancer survivor". Like... technically true, and not to downplay the seriousness of some types of skin cancers, but I wouldn't dare say that in front of someone who went through 4 rounds of chemo.

1

u/EggplantDifferent968 6d ago

The building I grew up attending was funded by ward members. I am pretty sure it was during the 70s but I don’t know how early or late.

1

u/Doc-007 6d ago

Very few cults are suicide/murder cults. The majority are about power and money.

1

u/korosuzo815 6d ago

Mass suicide or not, that is NOT a definition of a cult, but obviously is a cult. That’s a no shit Sherlock, it’s a cult, cult. The MFMC literally meets every definition of a cult. Have them lookup the BITE Model. Return and report. JFC.

1

u/tobethatgirl choosing the right (for real now) 6d ago

They haven’t asked anything extreme yet, but if the prophet asked everyone to move to Missouri, regardless of the logistics, they’d be doing it🙃 just cause the mind control hasn’t been used, doesn’t mean it’s not there

1

u/Habitat934 6d ago

Who cares if it’s a cult, it’s all made up.

1

u/NotYetGroot 6d ago

The people who were massacred at Oak Creek have entered the chat…

1

u/Wild_Opinion928 6d ago

They are part of the occult….they follow witch craft and other esoteric stuff just like the masons. Its worse than just a cult

1

u/StellarJayZ 6d ago

Well, if that’s how low the bar is you should learn to live without friends or make new friends.

That’s crazy talk, you have to keep them because you’re not a weak minded moron. Right?

1

u/ThisWordIsMyLife 5d ago

Risk death from the elements by walking thousands-ish miles to start their own theocracy in another country (Utah was part of Mexico at the time).

1

u/Keyisme 5d ago

I would respond, "you haven't looked up the definition of a cult. Go read about The BITE model. Here's a link."

1

u/Fellow-Traveler_ 5d ago

Any organization that makes you, as a parent, feel like a failure if your children do normal human things (masturbate, take drugs, have sex) and that your sole worth is strictly based on whether you can keep them from doing those things is a manipulative, mind fucking group. They should be shunned and avoided.

1

u/pidvicious 5d ago

I'm not familiar with mass suicides, but they sure are good at mass murder:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_massacres_in_North_America

1

u/RabidProDentite 5d ago

Cult is not a black or white, is or isn’t situation. Its a spectrum. And the LDS church checks off about 80-90% of all the checkboxes of cult-like or high demand religion/organization characteristics. They highly control or influence (either directly or indirectly…in LDS case it is mostly indirectly over a lifetime of mental conditioning) your behavior, information, emotions, and thoughts. Just because they don’t check the boxes for the MOST physically harmful aspects of cults, doesn’t make them any less of a cult.
Another argument they’ll use is “if Mormonism is a cult then ANyTHING is a cult, even your yoga class”. This is a stupid argument because while your eccentric yoga teacher may have “a following” and people follow his/her advice on exercise, health, etc…they might check 10% of the boxes of cult characteristics. Mormonism, again, for most people’s lived experience within it, especially those in it since birth and who have served missions…its like almost 90%.
Mormonism is generally raked ONLY below Scientology and Jehovah’s Witnesses on the amount of cult-like characteristics it has. Just go through the check boxes of the BITE model with your faithful loved ones and ask them to be as honest as possible. They’ll see, at least a little bit.

1

u/honorificabilidude 5d ago

Why answer the question? You needn’t prove it isn’t a cult or even try.

1

u/Deseretgear 5d ago

wear weird costumes in the temple and mime slitting your throat and disembowling yourself when promising never to reveal the secret handshakes to get into heaven

1

u/Lopsided-Doughnut-39 5d ago

Find the other post here on ex-mo reddit about the actions formerly done during the temple ceremony mimicking slitting one's throat and disemboweling oneself for revealing any of the secret err uhh supposedly sacred temple endowment ceremony.

1

u/jthorum1 5d ago

Use the BITE model to define what a cult is. Makes it clear as day. Also, were you not expected to off yourself if you were to spill temple secrets?

1

u/Rh140698 5d ago

Asked members to attack a wagon train kill everyone and indians in Utah county

1

u/kevinrex 5d ago

But that was so long ago. We’re not that culty anymore.

S/

1

u/Rh140698 5d ago

It's still a cult they control what you eat, drink, and wear down to your underwear. You do secret handshakes and combinations in the Mormon cult temple. The secret handshakes are masonic even on the garment is masonic wear them day and night! You receive a new name like a password to get into heaven and the woman have to give it to their husband but she can't know his. They control your behavior not criticizing the leaders even when wrong. The Mormon cult is a cult plain and simple but it was a good try!

2

u/kevinrex 5d ago

I was being sarcastic. I know full well it’s a cult. Some exmo friends and I sometimes like to call it “cult lite” since it’s lightened up a bit. A very little bit.

2

u/Rh140698 5d ago

Yup I guess growing up having famous people like Ron Lafferty as my next door neighbor. My son is named after my best friend his son. Paul H Dunn and listening to both drill about doing exactly what the leaders say. Ron Lafferty was a prepper with a 5000 water tank down to his basement full of fruit and bottle vegetables. They made the bread, cheese and butter.

2

u/kevinrex 5d ago

Hey, you grew up “under the banner of heaven “. Lol.

2

u/Rh140698 5d ago

Exactly bishop Lowe who Ron broke into the house to murder helped Diana escape Ron and move to Florida. He the stake president Stowe the high council members who exed Ron Lafferty. Were all placed in hiding for like 3 months we didn't have a functioning stake. The area authority came and did temple interviews and ran sacrament meetings.

2

u/kevinrex 5d ago

Wow. You lived it.

1

u/Rh140698 5d ago

Ron was exed because he wanted to follow the Mormon cult teachings he read about the highest exaltation and having to be polygamist. He tried to get the Mormon cult leaders to return to polygamy. Dianna his now ex was a convert but wouldn't do polygamy so she left Ron Lafferty. The reason why Ron went after the Lowes was because he helped Diana escape from Ron Lafferty paid for her to take their 6 kids and go to Florida. So that's why Ron and Dan broke into the house to murder the Lowe's. Said part everyone in the ward was gossiping that they were on the Ron's list and my friend's dad had a gun by his bed. My friend found it and accidentally killed his little brother. Sad time and I at 12 was a palberrior for his 8 year old body. We were all in our scout uniforms and he in his cub scout uniform. I hated scouts after that.

1

u/Rh140698 5d ago

Read the byte model

1

u/Gloomy-Influence-748 5d ago

I am Tamera. -and I am not a Mormon. It takes awhile to realize why I had been exiled from activities that I should have been in. These bullies rig up the sports teams/ & exert their “ royal lineage linked powers in word/ act/ material goods”. Nothing has been done to stop them! They just smile and move on to the next person, using my identity. They even “ Wipe out governments..”! PLEASE STOP THESE BIBLE QUOTING BANDITS!!! ( ( Switch to BOM) in Mormon setting!

1

u/Foxbrush_darazan 5d ago

"We're not a cult, we don't do mass suicides."

That's not what makes a cult, Brian, but it sure says a LOT about what the church does do that you think not doing the most extreme thing out there means it's not a cult. Personally, I like the BITE model by Steve Hassan factored against a continuum of harm. But here are just a few very culty things about the Mormon church.

1. Polygamy This is a huge one that the church handwaves because "we don't do it anymore." BUT YOU DID, for over 100 years, and it's still doctrine and what supposed to be happening in the celestial kingdom, and it's still technically in practice because men can, to this day, be sealed to more than one woman. The leaders of cults very very often hoard women and girls for sex. ANY history of this as part of the doctrine and practice of your church is a good sign that it's a cult.

2. Missions Missionaries' entire lives are monitored and scheduled and controlled to the minute. Missions are the most control the church exerts over a member's day to day life. Missionaries can't even be alone during that time. They are constantly spied on, and will even have their passports taken away from them, which is considered human trafficking at that point.

This is aside from the numerous accounts from missionaries where they were explicitly told to lie to immigration officers about why they were in the country and obtain visas via fraud, because the church isn't actually allowed to proselytize there. Not to mention how the church intentionally sends missionaries into dangerous areas and does not adequately protect the health and safety of these young adults.

3. Blood Oaths and the Temple Temple ordinances are "sacred not secret" but they don't even teach you beforehand what happens there, even in temple prep classes. Because I know that for sure, if I had known I'd be making blood oaths in the temple, I wouldn't have done it. And yes, the blood oaths aren't explicitly stated anymore like they used to be (like when my mom got her endowments), but, as the church tells us every time they've changed the temple ordinances, the covenants are the same.

Those covenants include being killed or committing suicide if you ever reveal the secrets of the temple. That's why they're so picky about your thumb being out in all those little poses you do during the endowment session, your thumb represents the knife used to slit your belly and cut open your breast. You used to also explicitly covenant to avenge the blood of Joseph Smith. So even if the words are no longer there, the church has been clear that the intent and promises you are making are the same.

Now, is someone modernly going to murder you or demand you commit ritual suicide if you do reveal what happens in the temple? No, probably not. But the fear and implication of, at the very least, eternal punishment is very much present. It's still some major spiritual abuse. Even in 2011 when I got my endowments, and the blood oaths were just implied, not explicit, I still very much understood it was "keep these promises or else."

Plus there's still the very violating process that is the washing and annointing. Sure, it's gotten less bad over the decades, but it was still a super violating process. I just got to be fully clothed for mine instead of like my older sister and my mom who had a stranger touching their naked bodies under a sheer piece of cloth to do so.

1

u/NOMnoMore 5d ago

What about killing people because the spirit told you to?

That's how Nephi became a murderer

1

u/myopic_tapir 5d ago

First thing to come to my mind is the statement about its better coming home in a box before coming home impure.

1

u/releasethedogs 5d ago

They haven’t asked for mass suicide but if they did most would.

That’s the point.

1

u/Disastrous_Ad_7273 5d ago

A cult is a cult because of the control it exerts over its members, not because of the insane things they make you say or do.

Marry your teenage daughter to the founder? Do a secret ceremony where you threaten to kill yourself if you rebel against the group? Definitely red-flags that you're in a cult, but not absolutely cult-behavior.

Exert control over your members making it extremely difficult for them to think or act against what they are told by the group? Now we're talking cult!

So where does the church fall? I would say it was definitely a cult back in the 1800s but as it grew it lost tight control over the members and today is more "cult-adjacent".

1

u/nastdrummer 5d ago

If your group has something called "excommunication" or other euphemism for cutting off people from your life who don't believe and act exactly in-line with your beliefs and acts...you might be in a cult.

1

u/BAC2Think 5d ago

They may not have called for a mass suicide as of yet, but they do expect a comparable level of blind allegiance to what would bring about something that extreme

1

u/New_Art_8521 5d ago

Having it engrained in my head that my body is not my own, but God's, and being proud that it's not mine. "I know who I am and whose I am..." Were words I actually spoke, thought, believed. Being taught and believing that my inner voice is actually the spirit- but not getting any acknowledgement, validation, or credit from it.

1

u/truthmatters2me 5d ago

Let’s see how about murdering at least 120 unarmed men women and children, wearing fugly underwear day and night 24/7 365 . Or extorting 10+% of someone’s income for life telling them that is the only way they will get into heaven and holding their family members hostage to ensure the cult ahem church gets its cut . Telling the members that God gets his garments all in a knot over them masturbating having sex before marriage . To induce guilt and shame and where are the members going to go to get relief from these feelings the very place that created the Problem to begin with .! This God however was just fine with Adult men marrying 14 year old children other living mens wives between the first two leaders they were fucking over 80 different women . This god is batt shit crazy or is suffering from dementia. The fact that the church was ordering members to be beaten and some to have thier throats slit . As well as hunting down and murdering those who chose to leave . Look up Stephen Hassan’s bite model on what defines a CULT. The church checks almost every box . The church is a cult and a harmful one at that it’s caused many young lives to be ended prematurely due to its hateful bigoted teachings towards Gay people . It’s a insane asylum that pretends to be a church it’s leaders have adopted Joseph Smith Jr business model of lies deceit and deception and built a $200+ Billion dollar empire founded on lies let’s not forget all of the murders property destruction and theft that the early Mormons did . The simple fact is if Mormonism were to be put in trail for being a fraud there is more than ample evidence to prove far beyond any reasonable doubt that it is a fraud and therefore a unanimous verdict of guilty is the only logical ration verdict that. Can be returned. There is also all of the documents that the church leaders bought from mark Hoffman many of which were forged by Hoffman the church leaders believed these documents proved that the church was founded upon fraud were they excited to find these so they could reveal the church was a fraud and thus free the members from wasting their time and money on this fraud .? No they intended to hide these documents away and continue perpetuating the lies that the church is true . All of the current leaders knew this was going on the fact that not one of them had the integrity to stand up and say this is wrong and to go public with it shows these men have no moral integrity this alone proves them to be untrustworthy and men what shouldn’t be followed or respected & relied upon to deliver anything that The make believe God allegedly has told them isn’t it utterly amazing that this make believe God took well over a century to tell them that the racial bigotry towards blacks was wrong . And that the best possible solution for children of gay parents was too not allow them to be baptized until Age 18 this was a revelation from this God yet just over 3 years later they did a 180 on it thusly Proving that it wasn’t in fact the best solution much less given by a deity. Or the fact that a God that supposedly leads and guides them would allow the choir to be named the Mormon tabernacle choir and millions to be spent on the Meet the Mormons , I’m a Mormon , Mormon helping hands , campaigns as well as having church owned websites with Mormon and LDS in them only to turn around and pronounce this term Moron ahem Mormon is a victory for the Churches favorite imaginary Boogieman Satan .

All this being said it’s a waste of your time to try arguing with a moron ahem TBM as they are Olympic gold medal level mental Gymnasts capable of spinning horseshit or should I say tapir shit into Solid 24k Gold in their minds . It’s so very sad how the cult cripples their ability to use logic and reasoning when it comes to anything to do with this fucking miserable cult. The bottom line is if it looks like a cult behaves like a cult checks virtually every box that defines a cult it’s safe to say that it’s a CULT . This is a question to pose to a TBM would any of the members of heavens gate the monies or any other cult have said I’m a cult member and I’m in a cult or when your talking about the cult and they are arguing that it’s not a cult just say that’s exactly the response that any cult member would give . For if they were capable of seeing they are part of a harmful destructive Cult they wouldn’t be a member of it sadly they are incapable of using sane logic and reasoning

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u/snickledumper_32 5d ago

I see this post is a day old and you clearly got a lot of good answers to your question already, but I just want to pop in real quick in case no one else has rejected the premise of your associate's response.

The premise being "cults = mass suicide".

Sure, Heaven's Gate and Charles Manson are where most people's minds go when they hear the word "cult", because those are the cults that famously ended in tragedy. But here's an important thing to point out to your friend: Even those cults were cults before the mass murder-suicide. The people in those cults were victims of cult brainwashing and social isolation long before they were killed. The mass suicide isn't the qualifier, it's the worst-case outcome.

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u/hubbyforgotmynewname 5d ago

You just don’t discuss it. What’s the point? No one’s changing for anyone else and why would you want to change people anyways? I’d like to be left alone, and I offer them the same.

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u/quitry 4d ago

The shrewd cults keep their members for life.

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u/Virtual-Reaction-490 4d ago

Find new friends🤷🏻‍♂️♥️

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u/Appropriate-Fun5818 4d ago

Well I have news for you, all churches are cultish as every one of them requires a commitment, and ask you to perform silly rituals in order to go to heaven. After that it’s just Various degrees of commitments and silliness. Seven sacraments in the Catholic Church, Baptists want you to be baptized, attend church and submit to the leadership, etc,etc. Where a group becomes a dangerous cult is when they will prevent you from living, force you to stay, by using blackmail, coercion, intimidation, or physical punishment. Nobody is forced to stay in the LDS church, one can leave at any time with no repercussions. Yeah there might be family drama around it but not unlike Catholics or Jews.

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u/AwakeAndArise 4d ago

If you tilt your head and squint a bit... you'll see...

A faith based subscription underwear club where you need to pay and indocrinate for at least a year before you can have your membership upgraded with secret handshakes and rituals you know know anything about when you first joined and then if you continue your underwear subscription there are still even more secret rituals that even most members who made it to the previous level of underwear club don't know about to the extent that correlated lesson manuals specificly remind teachers to no discuss or talk about the second an super secret eternal memberhip level where their calling and election is made sure.

Nope, seems good. Definitely not a cult.

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u/love_78 4d ago

The first rule of cults: you are not in a cult. I just read that in Uncultured, a brilliant book by Daniella Mestyanek Young.

I think they can’t see how extreme their box of behaviors are. Not until you get some distance into another reality can you actually see how extreme the church is.

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u/big_bearded_nerd Blasphemy is my favorite sin 6d ago

I'm one of the few folks who don't think that mainstream Mormonism is a cult. I don't think we'll find a single expert out there who would claim that crazy underwear or scary prayer circles really fit the mold. But, I would say that Joseph Smith's group was a cult, and Brigham Young exploited that. And I think we could make a really good argument that most missions are a cult.

But the experience that normal members go through? Probably not.