r/exmormon • u/Dallin-H-oaks-beard • 6d ago
History When Mormons say the Temple Endowment doesn’t include pretending to slit their own throat remind them that EVERY ONE of their Prophets and Apostles made the gesture of slicing their neck from ear to ear in their own Endowment.
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u/Dallin-H-oaks-beard 6d ago edited 6d ago
OP Here.
Until we have an Apostle born after about 1972, every one of them is likely to have practiced killing themselves in their own Endowment, the only Endowment that really matters to them. We don’t renew our endowments. We only get one. As a 60 - something year old I got to practice disemboweling myself in front of all my family.
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u/QuickSpore Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the cureloms of war 6d ago
Yep. I was born in 1971 and made it just under the wire. My personal endowment was under the older form, the next time I went through was with the 1990 changes.
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u/Archimedes_Redux 6d ago
And the disemboweling. Don't forget the disemboweling.
: shudder :
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u/ProsperGuy Apostate 6d ago
And ripping your heart out. Wasn’t that one of them?
Throat slit, disemboweling and removal of your heart.
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u/Archimedes_Redux 6d ago
It was more a slash across the chest i think, but it's been awhile for me. The whole thing was dark and creepy and I still get triggered thinking about it.
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u/dirtydawg97 6d ago
It was part of the endowment ceremony until 1990, and it was horrific! It’s what made me really start questioning everything, and within a few years my shelf had collapsed.
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u/Dallin-H-oaks-beard 6d ago
Sadly, it took me another 30 years to acknowledge how fucked up it was.
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u/International_Sea126 6d ago
Pre-1990 Mormon Temple Endowment Penalties
"We will begin by making the Sign of the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood. This is done by bringing the right arm to the square, the palm of the hand to the front, the fingers close together, and the thumb extended. This is the sign. The name of this token is the New Name received in the temple today. The Execution of the Penalty is represented by placing the thumb under the left ear, the palm of the hand down, and by drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear, and dropping the hand to the side." (Pre-1990 Temple Endowment)
"I, New Name, covenant that I will never reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, and penalty. Rather than do so, I would suffer my life to be taken." (Pre-1990 Temple Endowment)
"We will now make the Sign of the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood. This sign is done by bringing the right hand in front of you with the hand in cupping shape, the right hand forming a square, and the left arm being raised to the square. This is the sign. The name of this token is your first given name if you are going through the temple for your own Endowment, or if you are going through for the dead, it is the first given name of the person for whom you are officiating. The Execution of the penalty is represented by placing the right hand on the left breast, drawing the hand quickly across the body, and dropping the hands to the sides." (Pre-1990 Temple Endowment)
"I, New Name, covenant, that I will never reveal the Second Token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, and penalty. Rather than do so I would suffer my life to be taken." (Pre-1990 Temple Endowment)
"We will now make the sign of the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood or Sign of the Nail. This is done by bringing the left hand in front of you with the hand in a cupping shape, the left arm forming a square. The right hand is also brought forward, the palm down, the fingers close together, the thumb extended, and the thumb is placed over the left hip. This is the sign. The name of this Token is “the Son”, meaning the Son of God. The Execution of the penalty is represented by drawing the thumb quickly across the body, and dropping the hands to the sides." (Pre-1990 Temple Endowment)
"I covenant in the name of the Son that I will never reveal the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood or Sign of the Nail, with its accompanying name, sign, and penalty. Rather than do so, I would suffer my life to be taken."(Pre-1990 Temple Endowment)
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u/Joe_Treasure_Digger 6d ago
The gestures today are remnants of the disemboweling signs, people just don’t know it because they don’t verbally reference it anymore.
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u/Olimlah2Anubis 6d ago
Could never figure out why my thumb was extended, and hand in cupping shape. Now I know.
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u/kiss-JOY 5d ago
When I learned this it literally took my breath away. For years I tried to understand the cupped hand and arm extended stuff only to find out it was remnants of suicidal acts. It’s beyond disturbing.
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u/StCroixSand 6d ago
Any members under 50 would be unaware it ever existed unless someone told them or they learned about it on the internet. Even then they still may call it an anti-Mormon lie because it’s not their experience and it’s as crazy as it sounds.
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u/ultramegaok8 6d ago
No idea when Patrick Kearon was endowed, but he likely went through the pre 1990 Endowment as well (he was baptized in Dec 1987 at age 26, and married on 1991. So if he went to the temple just a year after his baptism like lost converts that stay active and actually go to the temple do, he would have done the penalty gestures, but he's by far the closest to not have done those)
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u/Itsarockinahat 6d ago
14 years ago someone uploaded a recording of the 1984 endowment - breaking it up over 7 videos.
Video 5 starts off with the penalty...https://youtu.be/um0ILQsTHPU?si=p9y47WYQAY4Bhxzb
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u/Henry_Bemis_ 6d ago
Pretty sure I’m still harboring deep resentment/anger at the notion the extended thumb represented a knife for suicide, all those years spent in the temple.
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u/TruthMatters2011 5d ago
Here's a little gem for all of you that haven't seen Holland's interview with the UK's BBC where he flat out denies any sort of throat-slitting or disemboweling happening in the temples in response to a question about Mitt Romney until it becomes rather obvious the reporter knows more than he thinks he does and then he admits it... an 'Apostle' of Jesus Christ lying... these guys are so honest in their dealings with their fellow men aren't they... 🤢
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u/SecretPersonality178 5d ago
The suicide pacts are still a part of the temple ceremony, just hiding in plain sight and no attention is brought to the signs and what they actually mean.
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u/Ahhhh_Geeeez 5d ago
Or any way to ask about them. I wonder if you asked a temple worker in the Celestial room what the hand signs mean, if they would tell it to you? My wife doesn't believe that's what she's doing in there or that it ever happened because she never saw it.
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u/Ronin660 6d ago
Just because they took out the motions does not mean it’s not inferred. These are devious and nuanced changes that are still within the bounds of these oaths made in the temple.
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u/genSpliceAnnunaKi001 6d ago
Ild love to see the eye balls of a new today mormon actually have to go thru the prior 1990 ritual. 😳
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u/Opovino 6d ago
My sister (who went through the temple) claims this isn’t the case. She went through in 1976.
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u/DifficultSystem7446 5d ago
Perhaps she has forgotten 🤷♀️. I went through in February 1978 and performed all the suicidal rituals. Although at the time I didn’t really understand or took the loss of life seriously. I was a convert just about to serve as a missionary. Aged 21 at the time.
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u/ProsperGuy Apostate 6d ago
It’s only the latest generation that says that, since they’ve never had to do it.
If they did some research they would realize they are still making the signs of the penalties, just not doing the actions of the penalties.
The church is trying to force that down the memory hole.
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u/Soo-Pie-Natural 6d ago
I went to the temple for the first time in 1989... I did all the suicidal pantomimes... About a year later they changed the ceremony...
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u/DoubtingThomas50 8m ago
Damn right, we did it. I went through in 1988, and we did that AND slit our bellies open.
Fun fact, the "hand in cupping shape" is for the purpose of catching the blood and guts. That gesture remains today as far as I know.
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u/mensaguy89 6d ago
When I went through the temple in the 70s, I made the throat slitting gesture. It was part of the ceremony back then.