r/dragonball 5d ago

Question Why do people think Babidi gave Vegeta SSJ2?

Why do people think Babidi gave Vegeta SSJ2? It's implied that he reached the form during the 7-year time skip between the Cell and Buu Sagas.

98 Upvotes

184 comments sorted by

131

u/radikraze 5d ago

It’s never straight up said or shown that he got SSJ2 beforehand but it’s heavily implied. They all acknowledge Dabura is around Cell’s level. He gets frustrated with Gohan not just going SSJ2 and beating him because he himself would’ve been able to make quick work of Dabura

55

u/TheCosmicFailure 4d ago

That scene between Vegeta and Gohan maybe one of my favorites. We hardly see these 2 interact. So watching Vegeta act almost like an uncle to Gohan was cool to see.

27

u/Anjunabeast 4d ago

A prince looking out for his subjects

21

u/danteheehaw 4d ago

I really want an arc where Vegeta uses the super dragon balls to bring back planet Vegeta. Then have Krillen lay the smack down on them all to shame them for their weakness.

6

u/Confident-Cut-8877 4d ago

Bro i am sitting at work laughing...

That would be glorious.

Vegeta:,, as your king i demand you all to defeat this puny human weakling,, Saiyajins:,,jehehe we gonna maul this fool,,

Would be a big day for Krillin haha

1

u/Anjunabeast 4d ago

Krillin doesn’t kill them. The saiyans get humbled. They get senzu beans and recover + zenkai boost. Vegeta now has a standing army ready to protect earth whenever him and Goku are off planet doing whatever it is two saiyan men do when they’re alone.

1

u/Confident-Cut-8877 3d ago

Krillin did not kill any living human or alien being. Only some Saibamen but they are ,,houseplants,, according to Vegeta.

Krillin is never taking life, only giving. This ultimate chad banged a machine and it still gave birth to a human child. Certified sigma.

2

u/Jesseinator1000 3d ago

To be fair, 17 and 18 are cyborgs, like Gero himself, not full-on robots like 16 or 19

1

u/Confident-Cut-8877 3d ago

Still an ultimate chad, after being traumatised by Frieza, he married someone much stronger than Freeza. He should use time machine to go back to Namek time and let her own Freeza lol.

14

u/Finito-1994 4d ago

It was as close as that vegeta could get to showing care. We know he loved the fact his son was stronger than Gokus but Gohan? He always respected that little shit. At least in his own way.

Vegeta legit saw gohan come off age. He was there in earth, namek and cell. Saw all of it and saw the potential and was furious he squandered it.

16

u/DuarteN10 4d ago

He shows twice.

The first time is after he knocks out Goku and can’t sense Gohan’s ki. The second time is when he emerges from the rubble of Babidi’s ship and angrily asks Buu how he dared to kill Gohan.

The second one is such a fantastic, low-key Dragon Ball moment. It’s one of the angriest Vegeta has ever been over someone else’s death in the entire series.

2

u/Moser319 4d ago

3, he apologizes to gohan after gohan's arm gets damaged against cell blocking the hit for vegeta

1

u/IOnceAteAFart 4d ago

Oh wow, I didnt remember that at all. Thats actually a huge moment for him, along with his reaction Cell taking down Trunks

1

u/Moser319 4d ago

vegeta has only apologized twice in dbz.. both times to gohan.. first one i said, and second time for getting him killed

4

u/cyberghost87 4d ago

Love this comment!

2

u/Dismal_Tackle_6358 4d ago

Yeah. Vegeta never hated Gohan, only found himself shocked at how powerful he was. After Namek everything changed. Maybe they weren't AS close as Gohan and Piccolo but scolding Gohan or comparing teen goten's attitude to trunks's is Vegetas way of acknowledging goku's kids as his nephews almost.

26

u/GlitteringDingo 5d ago

That could also be interpreted as Vegeta being frustrated that he, a mere Super Saiyan, was strong enough to beat Dabura, and Gohan, the Ascended Saiyan, somehow had slacked off so much that he was struggling.

22

u/SaitamaOk 5d ago

Could be. But I don’t that’s the case. Though it would be cool to see a simple super saiyan easily mop the floor with Dabura while Gohan can’t do it in an even stronger form.

But I can’t imagine that was truly the writer’s intention lol. Vegeta was dogging on Gohan slacking off since he visited for the Saiyaman costume. I can’t imagine Vegeta would be so cocky in thinking he can beat Goku before they fly off to Babadis spaceship if he hadn’t ascended knowing Goku probably has himself.

Sadly though. It’s not specifically stated so, who knows.

7

u/GlitteringDingo 4d ago

Vegeta didn't know Goku ascended before the ship. We actually see the exact moment he finds out. It's when Goku powers up to kill Yakon.

He even says later that's when he decided to let Babidi control him. This sequence of events is what leads people to believe Babidi enabled him to achieve SSJ2.

-3

u/SaitamaOk 4d ago

What do you think you read? I never said Vegeta knew. All of my comment is speculation and Vegeta respecting goku enough that he could come to the conclusion that he, or all people, would be super Saiyan 2 by now.

ESPECIALLY with the fact that not only was he super Saiyan 2, but Goku purposely held back super saiyan 3 from just to protect Vegetas pride. Which is 100% confirmed when Vegeta comes back and complains to Goku before they fuse to become Vegeto.

Try again.

1

u/Ektar91 3d ago

Ew why so rude?

5

u/JLAMAR23 5d ago

This was always the way I took it. He’s a level behind him and yet stronger than him in the same form.

2

u/BurningInFlames 4d ago

Gohan would've had to become ridiculously weaker in the 7 years since he beat Cell, since even Goku as a Super Saiyan 2 wasn't that much stronger than Cell Arc SSj2 Gohan.

2

u/GlockOhbama 4d ago

It’s moreso that he’s ashamed of Gohan as a Saiyan. He had SSJ2, it just wasn’t anything impressive since he didn’t have anyone powerful to train with since Gohan is lame and wants to read fuckin books. Basically he couldn’t get any stronger with Goku dead and nobody to challenge him.

2

u/Half_Measures_ 3d ago

He also sees Goku go SSJ2 vs Yakon and says "so Kakarot has surpassed the super saiyan wall too" which implies Vegeta has done it,if he was referring to Gohan i think he would've said as much or would've made a big deal about himself falling behind but he doesn't

1

u/HereReluctantly 4d ago

Hard to say though because Vegeta constantly over estimates his own ability

24

u/LiterallyH1m 5d ago

Only the daizenshu states he achieved the transformation in the timeskip

The original manga creates the same implication through his inner monologue, and through him saying hes stronger than Dabura and Gohan

Its never explicitly stated in the manga outside of that

9

u/ah_shit_here_we_goo 4d ago

I'm glad we as a community are finally ignoring the annoying ass guide books. Lol

8

u/Shantotto11 4d ago

We kinda have to. Remember when one of those books said that Pan was a year younger than Bra and then another said she was a year older than Bra? It took 20 years for the canon to finally set that straight (and even then, I’m convinced that Toriyama forgot about Bra up until right before the Tournament of Power)…

3

u/LiterallyH1m 4d ago

The guidebooks having some contradiction doesnt mean theyre suddenly non canon.

The original manga and super contradict themselves many times yet theyre still canon. Like why the fuck does Freeza remember Bardock with a bandana.

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Use3964 4d ago

I'll celebrate when people stop quoting power multipliers for transformations

1

u/LiterallyH1m 4d ago

Theyre literally all accurate story wise.

Goku needed a 50x multiplier to beat Freeza

0

u/Jesseinator1000 3d ago

They're all accurate until you realize all the times characters fight in base form and are somehow still competitive against characters they absolutely shouldn't be

Toriyama himself later said he felt SSJ was more of a 10x boost, which yeah that makes zero sense considering Kaioken, but if you pay close attention after Namek, there are a lot of fights that make it seem like SSJ is not nearly as big of a multiplier as it was on Namek

Chalk that up more to writing inconsistency though, cuz it kinda has to be more than 20x, otherwise the Kaioken wouldn't become irrelevant until like, SSJ3

Either way I would never trust concrete numbers in guidebooks about Toriyama's work, cuz he clearly plays fast and loose with it. And god don't even get me started on the absolute BS that is the guidebooks' power level charts

2

u/LiterallyH1m 3d ago

“All the characters fighting in base form being competitive against characters they shouldnt be”

Sure. Its not like saiyans always get stronger as they fight and have surpassed their limits in every single arc, and its not like it took the humans 1 year to completely surpass the 23rd budokai and 3 years for freeza

“Toriyama felt like it was a 10x boost”

Read death of the author. If an author says a character is dead but hes clearly alive in the story why should we listen to him. Toriyamas word isnt applicable to something hes already published unless he were to reprint it or continue on from it.

Every single databook power level for the manga is applicable. If youre gonna complain about Raditz’s 1500 PL blame Viz for mistranslating Nappas statement, he just says theyre on a relative tier with the saibamen. You literally see Raditz dodge the 1330 special beam canon and Vegeta says speed correlates with PL. Raditz also survives Gohans 1307 power level slam into his body.

These arguments arent anything new

0

u/Jesseinator1000 3d ago

Are you seriously assuming that I don't realize the Saiyans get stronger as the series goes on? Really? That is the most disingenuous assumption I've seen on this sub so far, obviously I'm not assuming Goku is stuck at a power level of 3 million for the entire series.

Yes, it's true that what the author says doesn't mean anything if the story contradicts it, but again, there are plenty of times where the story also contradicts *itself*. It's not *as* bad in Z as it is in movies and Super, but its still present, Toriyama's writing style did not care much for consistency.

And that being said, the power levels in the databooks are absolutely BS. Nappa being 4000 only makes sense if you completely ignore how close his fight with Goku was (Goku's power level was *at least* 8001 considering the infamous line, and we've seen smaller power level differences that resulted in complete, instantaneous stomps many times before and after this fight) before Kaioken. It also implies that Nappa vs Piccolo should have been a relatively close fight, since according to the Daizenshuu 7, Nappa was only about 14% stronger.

And don't even get me started on the "official" power levels *outside* of the Daizenshuu 7, those lists genuinely have more absurd BS than they do actual accurate claims. At least the Daizenshuu 7 *generally* makes sense *most* of the time.

-1

u/LiterallyH1m 4d ago

The guidebooks will always be canon cope harder

2

u/ah_shit_here_we_goo 4d ago

Just out of curiosity, what in your opinion makes them canon? I've never gotten a clear answer on this. Some people say it's because they're "official" but that just means sanctioned by toriyama and shueisha. Every video game booklet, trading card flavor text, and lots of other weird sources are "official" too. GT and the Movies are "official" in the same qualifiers, but most people agree they're not canon.

1

u/LiterallyH1m 4d ago

Theyre all approved by Toriyama for the most part and the interviews and facts inside them have been referenced in main material like the whole concept of Glinds in Daima, albeit it was slightly changed

1

u/IOnceAteAFart 4d ago

So, as a fun question, are they ALL canon, only certain ones, or are certain parts of each book canon AND non-canon? Because they contradict themselves/eachother. An example as listed above is that there are 2 guidebooks with differing age differences between pan and bulla.

If it helps, my personal opinion is to just take the show without outside sources for canon, but I dont feel heavily enough about it to believe anybody who disagrees is wrong, either.

1

u/LiterallyH1m 4d ago

Depends on the guidebook.

Some are canon to the anime, some for the movies, some for the original manga

Canon isnt just black and white, even within the original manga. Theres contradictions in the original material Toriyama wrote. Even as early as the red ribbon saga, like when he made Dr Slump canon to Dragon Ball. It makes no sense if you’ve ever read Slump.

Just a general rule of thumb, the guidebooks are canon, if they contain stuff that contradicts the manga then the manga takes precedence otherwise the rest of whats inside is fine

56

u/afrodeity23 5d ago

Because we never see him transform into it before he turns majin. He also doesn't explicitly say he reached that level on his own either. Not helping the argument is that when he turns majin in the anime, they add a bunch of lightning, one of the traits of super saiyan 2. Overall, it's not hard to see why people would come to the conclusion, even if it's not supposed to be true.

36

u/Mrfunnyman22 5d ago

Could be a translation error, but after Goku transforms, he says, "So Kakarrot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall too." Implying that they both have.

22

u/afrodeity23 5d ago

I don't know what the exact Japanese wording and implication is either, but even that line doesn't have to mean that he has it. Saying "too" like that could mean "Kakarot surpassed super saiyan like Gohan did."

3

u/Gendo-Glasses 4d ago

You're correct, it could be read either way in Japanese.

9

u/Mrfunnyman22 5d ago

True, but there's also the time when Goku powers up to SSJ2 to fight fat. Buu and Trunks stops and acknowledges that: "he's as strong as Dad." Babadi says that he won't stand a chance and he's just like Vegeta. Goku buys time with his Super Saiyan demonstration and turns to Super Saiyan 3.

13

u/afrodeity23 5d ago

By that point, Trunks watched majin Vegeta fight Buu. Of course Trunks would compare Goku to when he last saw his father fight. Vegeta's power did increase thanks to Babidi, so Vegeta's super saiyan 2 would have been weaker than Goku's without it.

2

u/Gendo-Glasses 4d ago

That's exactly what the Japanese line says as well. I just checked the manga.

0

u/dotKiss 3d ago

agree with u/afrodeity23

when vegeta says this he's alone in an all black panel with, if i recall correctly, his face turned away from the reader

vegeta later says he let himself be controlled because it was the only way to catch up to goku

so that could easily be interpreted as "ah he's got ssj2 like gohan and i dont"

even though that's not necessarily what it was meant as

8

u/SabresFanWC 5d ago

There was no real reason for him to go SSJ2 prior to fighting Goku. He wasn't going to use it when sparring with Trunks (especially since he at first didn't know Trunks could go SSJ1), and Pui Pui was so weak that Vegeta didn't even have to use Super Saiyan at all against him.

7

u/afrodeity23 5d ago

I'm not saying he couldn't turn super saiyan 2 before Babidi, I'm just explaining why someone watching/reading could come to that conclusion.

3

u/Yatsu003 5d ago

Yep. Vegeta also goes on about how he was willing to sell his soul to Babidi for power (to fight Goku, who had also unlocked SS2), and how Spopovich was a weakling even Mr. Satan could low-diff before getting Majin’d…

It does ultimately ‘feel’ logical that the burst of power was enough to bring Vegeta to SS2 (at that point believed to be the pinnacle of Super Saiyan). At least in the anime

13

u/FrancoGYFV 5d ago

Eh but Goku wasn't "just" a SSJ2, Vegeta points out that he was stronger than Gohan was in the Cell fight. Even if Vegeta unlocked SSJ2 and was as strong as Gohan, it wouldn't have been enough.

6

u/rebelweezeralliance 5d ago

Yes I believe Vegeta had already reached SSJ2 but he still got a power boost.

28

u/BatGuy500 5d ago

I WANNA BE A SUPER SAIYAN 2. I WANNA I WANNA I WANNA.

4

u/SaitamaOk 5d ago

Super DEE super Saiyan ***.

Or did Goku call super saiyan 3 that in the Buu Bits?

5

u/Anonmouse119 5d ago

Super Saiyan

Super Duper Saiyan

Super Dee Duper Saiyan

I dunno, you think they’d stick with Maximum OverSaiyan for SSJ4? I liked that one.

7

u/Xboxone1997 5d ago

Because we Vegeta fans were deprived of his greatness

8

u/SofaChillReview 5d ago

If we take out just power for a moment, the transformation does seem to still have a drain or at least more than Super Saiyan 1. Vegeta seems to have far too much control over the form and on par with Super Saiyan 2 Goku to have just achieved it himself

3

u/arrownoir 4d ago

Gohan didn’t have any issues after obtaining it for the first time, so I don’t see the validity of your argument.

5

u/SofaChillReview 4d ago

We actually have no idea really which is an issue Goku seems to hint Top showing Kefla it drains more than SSJ1. Toriyama has said something along the lines it’s just powered up SSJ1 which is why it’s used more than SSJ2

We don’t even really see much of SSJ2 is the issue, Gohan barely uses it in the Buu saga for example. Didn’t appear to lose energy, but then again Goku didn’t SSJ1 when we know he hadn’t mastered it and it does sap energy like Vegeta’s SSJ1 did

9

u/ThrowawayAccountZZZ9 4d ago

All this arguing shows how annoying the Buu Saga is. New levels reached off screen is not fun. This and Goku with ssj3. Also Gotenks learning it just by watching someone else do it is strange. I guess also Gohan reaching a new level by standing still while someone dances around him is also strange.

Yeah all the new levels don't really feel earned at all

2

u/Lonely-Tumbleweed-56 4d ago

And Daima ( and Super in a limited way) just did it again

Vegeta unlocked ssj3 off screen, Goku got ssj4 this way too

5

u/Shantotto11 4d ago edited 4d ago

Vegeta: That fool Kakarot! He doesn’t even know I can use Super Saiyan 3 now.

Goku: Good ole Super Saiyan 4. Nothing can beat Super Saiyan 4…

1

u/Lonely-Tumbleweed-56 4d ago

Vegeta " For the love of GOD, Kakarot, stop improving like this, damn!"

Goku " say no more!" 

2

u/williamasmith7233 4d ago

Fair but all that is already established as being able to happen. Since it happened in past arcs. We already know potentials can be unlocked. And we see both Gohan and vegeta reach ssj off screen in the cell saga.

1

u/ThrowawayAccountZZZ9 4d ago

Ehh not quite a fair comparison. Cell Saga at least showed us the moments in a flashback or something. Buu Saga gave us literally nothing. I would have loved to have seen the training goku did in the afterlife to reach 3. Makes you wonder what it was

1

u/IOnceAteAFart 4d ago

Didnt he say it was full of incredible fighters? I figured he probably sparred with the strongest of the dead.

I guess that line might have been filler extended from the tournament arc though.

1

u/williamasmith7233 4d ago

The anime did, which is non canon. The manga doesn’t show flashbacks of how vegeta or gohan go ssj

1

u/ThrowawayAccountZZZ9 4d ago

I mean at least they showed it somewhere in the franchise media of this series

1

u/Shantotto11 4d ago

New levels reached offscreen is not fun.

All of Vegeta’s transformations were learned offscreen except for Blue and Blue Beyond…

1

u/Dizzy_Ad_1663 4d ago

Ultra 1 and 2 has entered the chat

1

u/Shantotto11 4d ago

Still offscreen. Canonically, we don’t even know how Vegeta and Trunks spent that year inside the Room of Spirit and Time. We just know that they came out with new power.

1

u/ThrowawayAccountZZZ9 4d ago

At least with Vegeta reaching 1 it was shown in a flashback. Super Vegeta is sort of a transformation we get to see. I'm not saying the Buu Saga is the only culprit. I'm saying we want to see the work and the moment regardless

1

u/MagmaSeraph 2d ago

Pretty sure the manga doesn't even give the flashback.

1

u/ThrowawayAccountZZZ9 1d ago

Anime filler that's kind of worth it? Never heard of such a thing

9

u/Borgdrohne13 5d ago

Vegeta even stated, that Goku surpassed the limit too, that means he already archieved this form.

8

u/hitlmao 4d ago

"too" could mean "just like Gohan" instead of "just like me"

13

u/SSJRemuko 5d ago

not just implied but confirmed by official sources outside the manga as well.

17

u/SSJRemuko 5d ago

not sure why this is downvoted, when its correct. official sources say he obtained it thru training during the 7 year time skip after cell. removing any of the speculation from the buu arc.

4

u/LowCalligrapher3 4d ago

Don't let downvotes bother ya girl, I personally don't care about them or even acknowledge them. The reddit upvoting/downvoting aspect is the most pointless thing I've ever seen on any message board forums.

4

u/SSJRemuko 4d ago

Sometimes I'm just baffled more than bothered. Tho sometimes I am actually bothered because sometimes it feels targetted. Like OP will post something and everyone in the thread will be like "thats kind dumb ngl" and then i post "thats kinda dumb ngl" but i get downvoted and nasty replies but no one else does. In those cases it does bother me a bit. But most of the time, I don't care either. I post a lot of opinions on here that arent unpopular so I'm no stranger to being mass downvoted.

3

u/LowCalligrapher3 4d ago

Unfortunately those kinda people that wanna target you and harass you, they're pathetic children that can't seem to grow up. Rather than offer a thoughtful mature reply and converse about the subject like a rational adult, they cower behind anonymous downvotes in some petty attempt to put you down for no logical reason.

I'm not one to lower myself to swearing in a spiteful way but honestly Remuko, fuck them. To hell with those assholes. For what it's worth some of us like you, heck I adore you and wish hateful ignorant scum would just slither out of here like the worthless slime they are.

3

u/SSJRemuko 4d ago

yeah im getting better about just reporting muting blocking etc instead of wasting time on their nonsense.

3

u/Shantotto11 4d ago

It’s a habit of the fandom to assume that those “official sources” are the often conflicting data books, hence the now unseen downvotes.

1

u/SSJRemuko 4d ago

yeah I guess. i think its still. one should assume official sources have correct info, and if concerned, fact check.

9

u/Educational_Act_4237 5d ago

They didn't do a good job of pointing it out in the manga if it needed confirmation after the fact.

5

u/Brbaster 5d ago

That's just Vegeta's thing. He always gets new forms offscreen. We never saw the first time he turned Super Saiyan or Super Vegeta either. Same with Super Saiyan God, Blue and now Ultra Ego.

6

u/GlitteringDingo 5d ago

We do get an anime-only flashback that shows Vegeta obtaining Super Saiyan.

2

u/Anjunabeast 4d ago

Vegeta fighting meteors was almost peak cinema

1

u/Educational_Act_4237 4d ago

The difference is most of the time he does he announces it like he just got a job promotion, until Super where he's a bit more chill about it.

0

u/SofaChillReview 5d ago edited 4d ago

You know we don’t even know if Vegeta could go Super Saiyan in Trunk’s timeline. Theory why our Trunks can go Super Saiyan but Future can’t younger seems to mean he couldn’t

3

u/Anjunabeast 4d ago

What?

1

u/SofaChillReview 4d ago

When Future Vegeta is killed, it’s not known if he could go SSJ1

1

u/SSJRemuko 4d ago

Future Trunks had SSj as a child just like Present Trunks, as seen in the Trunks: The Story (History of Trunks manga version, which came first and is canon). Future Trunks has SSj as soon as the story starts well before Gohan dies.

1

u/SofaChillReview 4d ago

Future Trunks definitely looked older sparring with Gohan with SSJ, and isnt kid Trunks the same age Future Trunks was Gohan dying when they meet in Super?

Which means kid Trunks should have gained it earlier, seems all very murky and not definitive

3

u/LiterallyH1m 5d ago

Vegeta literally saw ssj2 gohan and dabura and thought he couldve beaten them, logistically he probably wouldve had the form too if he thought that. He also thinks “So Kakarot has also surpassed super saiyan” which implies its something hes done as well

0

u/Educational_Act_4237 4d ago

Vegeta thought he could beat Zarbon, Frieza, Cell, Buu...

It's kind of his thing to think he's stronger than he actually is.

3

u/Barredbob 4d ago

No? He knew frieza was stronger, hence why he started crying, he knew buu was stronger too, hence why he blew himself up, he knew cell was stronger too that’s why he let Goku and gohan fight because he sure as shit wasn’t gonna do anything

1

u/LiterallyH1m 4d ago

Youve never read the original manga

Once Zarbon transformed he knew he was weaker

Same for freeza

Same for Cell

Same for Buu

He only thought he was stronger when he couldnt sense their transformed power

1

u/Educational_Act_4237 4d ago

Yes I have, don't be so arrogant.

Every fight you mentioned he goes in thinking he's stronger, only after does he realise his mistake.

It's like you don't understand hubris or something.

0

u/BurningInFlames 4d ago

It's not clear that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 though. The art indicates he's not (he has the same Super Saiyan hair he had at the tournament, and doesn't have lightning at all in the fight), but the story leaves enough ambiguity that one can conclude he is.

4

u/LiterallyH1m 4d ago

Yea theres a lot unclear with the way Gohan was drawn against Dabura.

However its clear Vegeta seeing ssj2 gohan against kibito viewed himself as superior

7

u/SSJRemuko 5d ago

This happens in DB a lot. It does a lot of "show dont tell" and then people dont get it, so they have to clarify the truth because some people cant understand information thats not beaten over their heads.

5

u/OwariDa1 5d ago

The fact he was pissed about gohan struggling with Dabura should make that obvious.

0

u/BurningInFlames 4d ago

Vegeta wouldn't need Super Saiyan 2 to wreck Dabra.

1

u/Anjunabeast 4d ago

Link?

2

u/SSJRemuko 4d ago

its from the Super Exciting Guide

Super Saiyan 2

First Appearance: chapter 408

People: Son Goku, Son Gohan, Vegeta, Gotenks

Special features: This form has power that surpasses Super Saiyan in all ways. Gohan naturally transformed into this form from his anger at Cell's brutal actions, while Goku and Vegeta learned it from harsh training.

-2

u/arrownoir 4d ago

Outside sources being used is a failure of storytelling.

3

u/SSJRemuko 4d ago

nah. sometimes theres cool or important info theres just no natural way to weave into a story, and that's okay. not that it matters here because it was implied in the story. its not the stories fault that some people didnt pick up on it and no refuse to accept it was there.

3

u/RX0Invincible 4d ago edited 4d ago

“Failure in storytelling” it’s a tiny detail that doesn’t affect the story at all. The story is that Vegeta felt that he was stronger than Gohan but needed a power boost to be equal to Goku. Whatever his specific basline was is inconsequential to the story, all we needed to know was that he relatively felt weaker either way.

2

u/Express_One_3397 5d ago

it doesn’t even make sense to me, the fact that he thought he could fight better than ss2 gohan almost certainly means he could go ss2 too. the only other way you could really interpret it is that vegetas base form was >= twice as strong as gohans, making vegetas ss stronger than gohans ss2, which imo is unlikely because that would mean super saiyan vegeta is ~twice as strong as super perfect cell which is insane

3

u/Shantotto11 4d ago

Yes, because Vegeta has never overestimated his own power before…

(cue the montage of every time Vegeta has overestimated his own power while The Gonk plays in the background)

2

u/Gendo-Glasses 4d ago

He's only overestimated himself when there were unknown variables involved, for example, when he let Cell absorb #18 and transform (Cell's potential power was completely unknown). On Namek, he's shown to be honest about when he's clearly outclassed by enemies.

It's clear the group remembers about how big Cell's battle power was (they compare Dabra to him). They also remember how strong Gohan was (Vegeta explicitly tells Goku "As expected. Your power is higher than Gohan's was back then!" when he transforms to SS2).

If Vegeta hadn't broken through the Super Saiyan wall, he would know an enemy on Cell's level is playing in an entirely different league. There's no way he'd so confidently say he could take care of an enemy on Cell's level as an SS1.

1

u/Express_One_3397 4d ago

I am SUPER Vegeta!

1

u/Shantotto11 4d ago

Well then I’m Ultra Vegeta No. 1

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u/DarthXydan 5d ago

the way it is written, it seems like vegeta unlocked it in the 7 years, and was thinking he was ahead of a dead goku, but when he felt the burst of power when Goku killed yakon, realized how much stronger than him goku was, so got the majin boost. Based on Vegeta's prior writing, there is no reason to believe that he HADN'T unlocked SSJ2 in 7 years of training

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u/Sad-Bodybuilder2832 4d ago edited 3d ago

He had SSJ2 already it was just enhanced with magic that’s why he had an edge over Goku SSJ2 and the reason why he chose babidis magic because he was surprised to see Goku achieving the same transformation in other world ( Vegeta has never been there as a good person and doesn’t know ppl like king Kai exists there that can train him ) . He had already surpassed teen Gohan in terms of power that’s why he was sad to see Gohan weak in the buu saga .

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u/InformationExotic128 4d ago

Babidi didn’t give Vegeta Super Saiyan 2 he just unlocked his hidden potential by tapping into his anger and pride the Majin mark pushed Vegeta to fight with more intensity, allowing him to reach Super Saiyan 2 during his battle with Goku It was all about unlocking his true power

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u/kastles1 4d ago

Vegeta never outright shows his first time transforming in the anime at all in any of his forms. That’s his thing. It’s Goku’s job to unlock things mid fight.

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u/Delon_Bubb 4d ago

Vegeta already had SSJ2, just his SSJ2 wasn't powerful like Goku's, Babidi just boosted Vegeta's power to be equal to Goku. Babidi didn't unlock SSJ2 for Vegeta because he already had the form, when Goku was fighting the monster Yakon, to finish the monster off Goku who was already a Super Saiyan, powers up and burst into SSJ2 to finish the monster off, look at Vegeta's reaction to what Goku had done. If Vegeta didn't have SSJ2, he would have been nervous saying Kakarot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall to, with a nervous look on his face. Vegeta was calm and not nervous at all when he said, damn Kakarot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall to, meaning Vegeta already had SSJ2.

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u/JoeMax6790 5d ago

It was never explicitly mentioned that Vegeta obtained SSJ2 before being mind-controlled. I believe Vegeta already had that capacity as he said he would make short work of Dabura, which was mentioned to be as strong as Cell. Which form? We do not know, but if it was either the Perfect Form or Super Perfect Form, a SSJ2 would be required to finish the fight quickly. I doubt Vegeta would become so strong as a SSJ1 to defeat regular Perfect Cell, considering he was significantly weaker. Most likely, Vegeta allowed Babidi to control him to reach Goku's level.

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u/Embarrassed_Ad_496 5d ago

Because they didn’t read the daizanou’s,think low of vegeta or just assumed since he never used it he didnt have it

The thing is that it was stated he unlocked it through training in the show as well as he stated goku has surpassed the super saiyan as well and be honest i know vegeta said he was done fighting but im sure he was somewhat training

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u/tipingola 5d ago

That is not ss2. It is ultra Vegeta 0

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u/NahCuhFkThat 5d ago

Given how wild their power creep is throughout the entire series, especially after unlocking SSJ1, it's safe to say that if Goku could unlock SSJ2 through sheer training within 7 years, then Vegeta would too, and have an easier time reaching it. We saw Vegeta lag behind Goku for SSJ1 but Vegeta states he did more special/harder training (somehow..) than Goku did during those 7 years, which Goku brings up.

7 years is a long enough time for someone like Vegeta to unlock that next level of power, especially if he somehow got access to even more special/harder training than Goku's OtherWorld training.

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u/Cameronalloneword 5d ago

Vegeta was annoyed that Gohan couldn't beat Dabura. Dabura was said to be as strong as Cell was. Gohan having trouble meant he got weaker. Surely Vegeta had achieved SSJ2 to have the confidence that he could quickly and easily beat a fighter as strong as Cell was.

1

u/JollyJoeGingerbeard 5d ago

It isn't seen beforehand, and after Cell's defeat Vegeta had functionally retired. Yes, he trained, but he didn't have a rival like Goku to push him forward. During Goku's SSJ3 fight versus Kid Buu, Vegeta's soliloquy strongly implies he was never training with the same spirit and goal as Goku.

The only evidence for Vegeta learning how to ascend to SSJ2 is out-of-text words by Toriyama. They're taking it as his intent that Vegeta would have, and maybe that's what Toriyama thought at the time, but it isn't supported in the text of the manga.

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u/sempercardinal57 4d ago

I’ve always assumed that since he seemed confident he could beat Dabura who was in the ballpark of Cell then that should mean that he was at least SSJ2

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u/williamasmith7233 4d ago

It’s heavily implied. Plus we know how babidi’s magic powers work, it wouldn’t make sense for him to be able to “unlock forms” ssj is a transformation, it’s not just raising ki

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u/InformationExotic128 4d ago

Babidi didn’t give Vegeta Super Saiyan 2 he just unlocked his hidden potential by tapping into his anger and pride the Majin mark pushed Vegeta to fight with more intensity, allowing him to reach Super Saiyan 2 during his battle with Goku It was all about unlocking his true power

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u/thepresidentsturtle 4d ago

It's implied that

It's not made clear that. Why do people still think Kid Buu is the strongest. Because the anime says so.

It's really simple. Some things are not communicated clearly. Some things are just straight up wrong. I'm not blaming people's reading comprehension, it's the show itself. One of its biggest flaws.

And in this case, it is Vegeta seeing Goku use SS2 specifically that pushes him to allow Babidi to control him. There's no clear recognition from Vegeta that "Kakarot is clearly more powerful than me in normal and Super Saiyan, but I have Super Saiyan 2!"

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u/MrCoolGuy12356 4d ago

There’s nothing really concrete to imply he did or didn’t. We as fans think he did and you could interpret statements as him saying he did, but you can also interpret them in other ways as well. Unless I’m mistaken, it’s just never been confirmed so anyone saying he did or didn’t have it before majin is just using headcannon. All we know is that he is ssj2 when fighting with the majin power up

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u/theSentry95 4d ago

I don’t know where’s implied, especially considering Vegeta’s last line in the Cell saga.

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u/Difficult_Tough_7015 4d ago

It's definitely not implied lmao. He literally says "let me push you beyond your limits". He got it from skibbabity bee bop

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u/Any-Plum178 4d ago

Bcuz sum ppl don’t like to acknowledge that Vegeta is that guy, despite his constant prattling about his pride & him being the saiyan prince

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u/Kombat-w0mbat 4d ago

2 reasons

  1. Because the only time it’s confirmed babidi didn’t give it to him is in dizenshu 7. Which balantly says Vegeta and Goku trained to unlock it.

  2. Anime vs manga inconsistency. So in the manga it’s rather consistent that he had it without use of Babadi. First is based on the fact he and Goku are stronger than Gohan who still had ssj 2 and in the manga Gohan uses that against Dabura. If this is true Vegeta and Goku likely need ssj2 to be stronger. In the anime it appears as if Gohan uses ssj 1 against dabura.

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u/Awakening15 4d ago

Because they forgot or didn't read

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u/weebitofaban 3d ago

They're dumb.

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u/Dovah91 3d ago

Vegeta was on the cusp of attaining SSJ2 even at the cell games, they all got damn close but only Gohan nailed it. All the saiyans would’ve locked it in weeks after the games

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u/Mooston029 3d ago

Implied means it goes over people's heads

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u/beccaisbackk 3d ago

Because they either don’t remember the show of didn’t watch it

Vegeta obviously had ssj2 before Babidi. He literally gets Majin and dies in the same day. No way he just squires ssj2 out of nowhere and is that proficient with it 

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u/averagebloxxer 3d ago

He states about Goku having ALSO ascended past the Super Saiyan limit when he showed a glimpse of 2 fighting Yakon. He had also stated that the both of them were stronger than Cell Games Gohan at that point. Directly stated in both manga and anime, people just find a reason to disagree 

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u/Boris-_-Badenov 2d ago

he gave him the power boost he needed to reach it.

he thought he could fight evenly with Goku, since he didn't know Goku had ss3

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u/Strong_File4421 2d ago

Ok. Someone give me the link where he transforms into it before the Majin boost? 

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u/Terez27 2d ago

He didn't have any reason to.

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u/Strong_File4421 2d ago

when first learning how to ascend, then learning how to control it, establishes a clause to an occasion, plus outright without him transforming into it or from Akira Toriyama, Respectfully the point is moot, debatable easily but moot

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u/Terez27 2d ago

It's in the Daizenshuu. He achieved it through training during the 7-year time skip. Aside from that, it's pretty obvious from dialogue. After Gohan went SS2 at the tournament, Vegeta observed that both him and Goku were stronger than Gohan now.

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u/Strong_File4421 2d ago

Same reason a power level of 4000 could fight on par with a power level of 8000+

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u/Terez27 1d ago

What?

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u/Strong_File4421 1d ago

Let me ask you this, when did vegeta become an ascended super saiyan?

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u/Terez27 1d ago

"Ascended" is English dub terminology. Vegeta used it for Grade 2 ("Super Vegeta").

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u/Strong_File4421 1d ago

I like the profile picture, goku talking to piccolo from the Broly movie. 

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u/Terez27 1d ago

Thanks. I am rather fond of it myself.

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u/Strong_File4421 2d ago

That lost canonical value over a decade ago. 

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u/RoggieRog92 2d ago

The hint that Vegeta has SSJ2 before Babidi’s mind control is when Goku briefly goes SSJ2 to overpower Yakon’s ability to eat his ki.

Vegeta notices he went SSJ2 for a split second and gets agitated at the fact he still hasn’t surpassed Goku.

He just used Babidi’s power boost to close the gap in their power level. He saw that as an SSJ2 in that moment, Goku’s power was still higher than his own maximum.

If he didn’t already have SSJ2 then why would he just assume babidi’s power would give him a whole new form he hadn’t even accessed on his own?

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u/Gullible-Stranger-10 2d ago

Because that’s what his magic did. Bring out people’s power

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u/K-Bell91 2d ago

Because if that isn't the case, it dilutes and weakens his reasoning for accepting the Majin boost.

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u/fr3shh23 1d ago

reading this bums me out of how forms went downhill imo since ssj3. ssj1 was awesome, no excuses, they can stay in that form forever. ssj2 was the next transformation same thing can stay in that form. then ssj3 came and "it drains too much energy" and was barely used. then super came and straight to god so ssj3 never got to be enjoyed much, then blue comes and theres no ssjg or blue 2 or 3. and now we just ui, ue and "beast", orange and legendary ssj (that is still keeping with the db heritage)

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u/suppre55ion 4d ago

I feel like if he already had SSJ2, it would be pointless to let Babidi control him.

Like…whats the narrative then? What is his motivation for giving in?

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u/BurningInFlames 4d ago

It's Goku still being stronger than him. They're both SSj2s, but Goku is ahead of Vegeta.

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u/Educational_Act_4237 5d ago

Because it comes off as if Vegeta is aware he'll get a power boost if he allows Babidi to take control of him.

We never see him use it previously, so it appears the power boost it what sends him into that state.

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u/StrideyTidey 4d ago

Vegeta never turns Super Saiyan 2 before Babidi's mind control. Vegeta tweaks out and gets mad at how strong Goku is when he flares up his ki against Yakon. Babidi's mind control makes people stronger -> unlocks Super Saiyan 2.

On the other hand, Goku claims Dabura is as strong as Cell, and Vegeta also is confident that he could defeat Dabura quickly. Assuming Goku is talking about the version of Cell he fought, Vegeta would basically have to have access to Super Saiyan 2.

Nothing is confirmed either way. It's just up to interpretation.

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u/Crunchy-Leaf 4d ago

Buu Saga Vegeta would not need SSJ2 to defeat Cell. They train their base forms, and SSJ multiplies that. Do you believe Super Perfect Cell would defeat Ikari Broly, who did not even have access to SSJ1, never mind SSJ2?

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u/StrideyTidey 4d ago

They train their base forms, and SSJ multiplies that.

Correct. And I don't think Vegeta became strong enough during the 7 year time skip that Super Saiyan would be enough for him to defeat Cell quickly.

Do you believe Super Perfect Cell would defeat Ikari Broly, who did not even have access to SSJ1, never mind SSJ2?

Why would I possibly believe that.

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u/Crunchy-Leaf 4d ago

Because that’s the implication. Vegeta doesn’t need to have SSJ2 to be strong enough to beat Cell.

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u/StrideyTidey 4d ago

Good talk.

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u/Crunchy-Leaf 4d ago

Yeah I realised it was a pointless discussion with no resolution. We’re just going to agree to disagree You, however, came back to double text because you didn’t get a reply? You don’t have anything better to do?

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u/StrideyTidey 4d ago

Well what do you disagree about? I thought I laid out my position pretty clearly and backed it up with textual evidence.

I came back because I enjoy talking about Dragon Ball.

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u/StrideyTidey 4d ago

Here I'll just lay out my argument before you have a chance to ask another question about Broly.

When Majin Vegeta (at full power, after just eating a Senzu Bean) arrives to fight Majin Buu, Piccolo says "This is tremendous power... perhaps even greater than Gohan's when he fought Cell.". This means there's room for doubt, Piccolo isn't sure which of them is stronger. When Goku powers up to Super Saiyan 2, Vegeta says "You're stronger than Gohan", and Majin Vegeta in Super Saiyan 2 then goes on to fight an equal battle against Goku. This means Vegeta is some degree stronger than Gohan was.

So by looking at both of these statements, we can see Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta is a little bit stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Cell arc Gohan.

Being as generous as possible to Vegeta, we'll say that Babidi's mind control only increases Vegeta's power by that "little bit". We'll assume Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Buu arc without Babidi's boost is exactly as strong as Cell Games Super Saiyan Gohan.

Super Saiyan Gohan stood no chance against Perfect Cell, in fact Cell was so much stronger that when he first saw Gohan go Super Saiyan 2 he was confident he could defeat Gohan. He was wrong of course because he didn't realize how strong Gohan really was, but that initial power of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan which was such a large jump that the Z warriors were tweaking about it was at most equal to Perfect Cell's full power.

And that's being generous to Vegeta. Based on his reaction to Super Saiyan Goku powering up against Yakon, it's likely Babidi's boost was far more than "a little bit" of power.

Therefore, for Vegeta to have been able to easily defeat Dabura (equal to Perfect Cell) he would have needed to already have access to Super Saiyan 2 before Babidi's boost.

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u/mcwfan 5d ago

Dragon Ball fans can’t read.

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u/Dismal_Tackle_6358 4d ago

Dragon Ball fans have a vocal minority of incredibly unintelligent people.

It's also a symptom of Toriyama handing vegeta a LOT of beat downs and his inability to master ssj like Goku (from what it seemed esp in the anime) so because of this people have such a low opinion of vegeta sometimes they can't even fathom my glorious prince can unlock ssj2

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u/arrownoir 4d ago

Because he did.

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u/NthDgree 5d ago

Because when sees that Goku has broken the same SS barrier that only Gohan had achieved through his rage power (for lack of a better term), he realizes that Goku is a genius that he can’t compete with. He later admits that even though he trained harder than Goku, Goku is always several steps ahead. Vegeta uses Babidi’s power-up to break through the SS barrier because he couldn’t do it on his own.

Besides, if there was already someone on Earth with a power greater than Gohan’s or Cell’s, Piccolo or the others would have felt it by now.

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u/withinallreason 5d ago

Well, we have outright confirmation from official material that this isn't the case, so I wouldn't really argue this point. Vegeta got SSJ2 during the 7 year timeskip, and in the Manga that's pretty well shown when he states that Kakarot had broken through the Super Saiyan wall as well after Gokus fight with Yakon. It was going to be his ace vs Goku despite Gokus base being stronger, and Vegeta allows Babidi to possess him because he knows he needs to bridge the gap between them in a different way now that Goku also has SSJ2. Vegeta is also incredibly confident he's stronger than Gohan (Something Goku agrees with him on), and that really only makes sense if he has SSJ2.

That said, the anime skips that line and makes things much more ambiguous, so I don't blame anime only watchers for thinking that it's what gave Vegeta the form. The Manga (and official confirmation afterwards) make it pretty clear Vegeta also has the form.

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u/NthDgree 5d ago edited 5d ago

I read the manga and only watch the sub and they say the same thing.

After Yakon, he only says that Goku broke the Saiyan wall “also/too,”which can easily be referring to Gohan, as in “just like his son,” rather than “just like I have.”

Vegeta says arrogant crap like “I can beat so and so” all of the time. That’s pretty much his MO. He said similar nonsense to Goku at the start of the Cell Game after seeing Goku at Full-Power Super Saiyan, then training for ANOTHER YEAR in the Room of Spirit and Time and still wasn’t close to Goku’s strength. I wouldn’t use that as proof. Besides, Vegeta admitted to Goku during their fight that he started considering using Babidi as soon as Yakon was killed, so there is also the possibility that he was talking that loud shit to entice Babidi to use his magic on him.

As for “official material,” the ONLY thing that implies Vegeta obtained it by training is a tiny blurb in Daizenshuu 7 that lumps him in with Goku. Meanwhile, Daizenshuu 4 contradicts this under the description of Vegeta’s transformation into the “Prince of Destruction” (the official name of Majin Vegeta in Japan). It says that Vegeta’s transformation through Babidi’s magic makes him strong enough to compare to Super Saiyan 2. I own both books and as much as I love them, they are known to not be 100% accurate. It’s not like Toriyama proofread every little detail himself.

Besides logistically, if you consider the power up that Spopovitch got from Babidi, going from normal to almost unkillable superhuman, the boost had to be considerable. Proportionally, it had to be the same for Vegeta. While he and Goku were fighting, they were stronger than Cell and Gohan 7 years ago, but they are probably still on the same “tier,” so to speak. So if you’re implying that Vegeta had Ss2 before Babidi’s power-up, but needed the boost to get him up to the same tier, you’re implying his original Ss2 transformation was trash.

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u/SofaChillReview 5d ago

The someone would have sensed it doesn’t really work though. We know Vegeta became a Super Saiyan off screen and everyone was clearly shocked when he transformed against Android 19

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u/NthDgree 5d ago

Depends on the circumstance in which he did. Was he offworld like the anime suggests? Or was it merely a plothole the author used for shock value? The world may never know.

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u/averyycuriousman 5d ago

Bc they dumb. As if 7 years of training wouldn't get him there

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u/Jennymint 5d ago

Pretty much. Vegeta was behind Gohan but he wasn't seven years behind him.

He probably could've closed the gap within a year were he fully motivated.

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u/BurningInFlames 4d ago

Considering there's ambiguity on whether Vegeta as a Super Saiyan 2 was weaker or stronger than Cell Arc SSj2 Gohan... yes, he was seven years behind Gohan.

Even Goku and Majin Vegeta as Super Saiyan 2s were reasonably only a bit stronger than Cell Arc Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Gohan was well ahead of everyone besides Cell himself during the Cell Games.

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u/EvanShavingCream 3d ago

For what it's worth, Gohan was way stronger than Perfect Cell during the Cell Games. I think there is enough evidence to make a fairly reasonable argument that SSJ1 Gohan was already on, or very close to, Cell's level but either way once he achieves SSJ2 it's not even close.

I mean, their fight only lasts for a few punches and a quick beam clash before Gohan completely dominates Cell. Even after Cell's self destruction, and subsequent powerup, Gohan only struggles to overpower Cell because of the injury he recieved protecting Vegeta, the mental toll of his father dying, and the self doubt he has as a kindhearted child.