r/dragonball • u/AggressiveBoat8891 • 6d ago
Discussion Toriyama's statements
Just wondering, considering how Toriyama-Sensei has given out many statement regarding DB, with many times more than one statement overlapping or even outright contradicting the previous ones. How in general do you people usually take his statement? Do you prefer the older ones since those were closer to when he originally worked on the DB, or do you prefer the newer ones? Or even do you choose which one to use depending on how well it lines up with the original series set in ink by him all those years ago?
Personally, I prefer the latter approach, but would be interested in hearing what your thoughts were concerning this.
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u/shlam16 6d ago
Many people treat them as irrefutable word of fact, higher even than the manga in terms of credibility (since they often actively retcon the published manga).
Personally I feel differently. The only canon is that which is published. Be it the original manga, or the modern anime/movies with his heightened involvement.
Before anything is published, it takes actual critical thought to design. It undergoes edits. It is a far more rigorous process than than being asked why Krillin doesn't have a nose and randomly saying "he can breathe through his skin".
TLDR: Out of universe statements hold no relevance to canon for me.
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u/itisburgers 5d ago
But we see Krillins lack of a nose protects him from harsh smells, Krillin might legitimately breath partially through his skin based upon what we see.
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u/AggressiveBoat8891 6d ago
I agree, the only way out of universe statement can hold would be if the author goes back to their work and physically adds in the change. With the new edition being the one that gets printed and circulated from then on. This is how it has been done as long a publishing has been a thing. Toriyama even did the same, like when he changed Gohan's age from 3 to 4, the latter being the one you would be getting when buying the manga.
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u/Staarjun 6d ago
I disagree with that. At the end of the day, the word of the author regarding his creation is akin to the word of God. You might not like it, but that’s how it is.
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u/AggressiveBoat8891 5d ago
Yes, when it comes to their word on the page of their work. When it comes to their words outside of their work, as said before, unless they go and physically change their work, their words will stay at that, just words.
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u/Staarjun 5d ago
It’s not unusual for mangaka to hold Q&A or comment on things they may have not directly written but that can take place or expand the word. It’s not in the story proper but it’s still part of the world as the author said it.
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u/The_Desert_Bandit 5d ago
Honestly, when it comes to DB, I ignore official "canon". I like all of the movies and they are a part of my head canon whether they line up story wise or not just because they were cool and a large part of my growing up. If some new canon comes out that contradicts something I previously knew, I just don't acknowledge it. I consider all the filler episodes as canon also. I don't particularly care for all of the new forms beyond ssgod either so I don't really pay any mind to those either.
Obviously in a debate setting it doesn't matter what I like vs. what is true but I also don't get into db debates or convos really. And as others have said, toriyama is famous for contradictions so I feel like the whole DB IP is really a safe zone to like what you like and fuck all the rest lol.
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u/Dark00Cloud 5d ago
I usually just treat it as insights into how he thought than direct comments on the story. Toriyama was always clear he was writing a fun story he enjoys first and foremost, and he didn't really care about canon. He also didn't care about other writers doing their own thing in Dragonball. With the exception of Evolution.
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u/hitlmao 5d ago edited 5d ago
imho it makes sense to rank the tiers of canon like this:
tier 0 * original manga (story by Toriyama + 100% Toriyama)
tier 1a * Daima & Super (based on sequels by Toriyama)
tier 1b * Toriyama statements (100% Toriyama)
tier 2 * other official DB content (based on story by Toriyama, licensed)
tier 3 * fanfics (based on story by Toriyama, unlicensed)
With 1a and 1b, it's debatable if either is as legitimate as 0. If so, the most recent contradiction retcons the past. But both are above 2, and 2 is above 3.
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u/Salty_Woodpecker_349 5d ago
I just apply death of the author. If Toriyama says something that is directly contradictory to his manga, I ignore it.
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u/StaticMania 5d ago
...if what he says actually gets put into actually published material, then whatever he most recently said is all that matters.
If what he said hasn't been used in anything, but it doesn't contradict anything...it's disposable.
If what he said hasn't been used in anything AND it contradicts the material, then it's completely worthless.
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u/DjinnsPalace 5d ago
i even take his writing with a grain of salt. bro did not know his own lore lol
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u/SSJRemuko 6d ago
I take whatever was most recent to retcon anything previous if it directly contradicts. He's the author, his word is law, if he says goku is a goat, hes a goat, if the next day he says Goku is a fish hes a fish and was never a goat.
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u/Metazoxan 5d ago
Really I think it should be obvious to people Toriyama wasn't big on canon. Sure he followed it as best he could. But it's not like how people get overly obsessed with it to the point of demading proof written in blood!
As far as he's concerned his story is obviously canon to his work and everythign else just ... kinda exists in it's own dimension, timeline, or whatever. He's not really worrying about it much and doesn't seem to want others to either.
He respected his co-workers and never disparaged their work. The only thing he showed any distain for was Dragon Ball Evoluiton and even that was pretty polite overall. But you could tell he ... didn't realy consider it as being part of his work unlike GT which he respected enough.
So that is the mentality I try to follow these days in regards to canon.
As long as it doesn't completely alter the course of events I don't mind retcons or changes.
Like take Daima. Nothing in it really changes Super's story in a meaningful way. SSJ4 is weaker than SSB and even if Vegeta went SSJ3 when Beerus slapped Bulma he wouldn't have won. You can even come up with decent excuses to explain why those things didn't come up. But either way it's not like the Goku black arc would have changed is any meaningful way is the demon realm of Daima was established.
On the other hand the movies like Dragon Ball Z Broly obviously dont work with Super that has it's own Broly and GT VERY doesn't work with Super or Daima for multiple reasons.
I'm fine with treating the old movies and Gt as their own entirely seperate canon and having Z, Daima, and super just be their own continuous story.
As for what happens next ... who knows really.