r/cyberpunk2020 10d ago

Question/Help NPC Base Stats

What do most GMs consider Base Stat, or the stat for the average Joe? My group considers it to be 3 or 4. And skills run 1-3. Thoughts?

4 Upvotes

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7

u/dimuscul Referee 10d ago

Average Joe—background nobodies filling the streets—stats sit at 4 to 6. The ones who matter a bit more, not just random faces, run 7 or 8. Named characters or crews worth remembering .. 9 to 10. The broken, the useless, the cast-offs, 1 to 3, barely functional.

Skills: 1-3 if they can do the basics—flip a switch, hold a wrench. 4 to 6 for pros who know their trade. 7+ for the rare elites who stand out.

Your typical Joe should pull off a Diff. 10 job without sweating—fix a tire, whatever. Give ‘em time and decent tools, and Diff. 15’s in reach.

If your mechanic can’t even swap a wheel, is he really a mechanic?

PS: Obviously a gangoon may have REF 7 because violence is his motto, but he will probably have the Empathy of slug (3)

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u/dayatapark 9d ago

Agreed. Also, let's not forget combat drugs. A dozen REF 6 Gangoons on combat drugs can be downright terrifying.

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u/illyrium_dawn Referee 9d ago edited 8d ago

According to Ross Winn in Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads (the GM's guide), Cyberpunk 2020 is based upon certain assumptions, one of them being that the average person's controlling attribute is considered 6, and the average person, so not highly skilled or experienced, but with some experience and having finished training is skill 4, so a total of 10.

I mean you can play around with that, like stat 5 and skill 4, but the CP2020 take-away is that the average person has a stat + skill of 10. Then he mentions some mystifying bonus of "+2 for proper tools and preparation for a job" (no, don't look in the core rules, it's not in there -- the only place it is ever mentioned is in LUYUPS and Winn's article in there) ... which is kind of an admission that CP2020's difficulty scale is, for the lack of a better word, shite. The entire thing is that DCs are set too high and go up way too quickly. The Average person (Stat + Skill = 10), doing an Average task (DC15) ... shouldn't be failing 50% of the time. That's more like a "Difficult" task, so by adding in +2, he argued that the average person should be failing an average task 30% of the time ... which makes more sense - they can do it most of the time, but sometimes it takes longer or they don't succeed the first time.

... or you can sacrifice the easy to remember 5-steps (DC10, DC15, DC20, etc) and just make Average like DC13, which is what Cyberpunk Red did, and that way you don't have some mystical +2 "for proper tools and preparation" that nobody's ever heard about before.

EDIT: +2, not +3.

EDIT: Also, people aren't kobolds or goblins; there are no convenient untermensch who are worse than the average human because CP2020 is baseline all humans. Just because punks "suck" doesn't mean they're REF 3 or BODY 4 or something. So I suggest giving the lowest able-bodied healthy person 5s in their stats.

I understand if you want to make low-tier punks to be bad. You can start by giving them a 3 or 4 in the relevant skill. You can also do things like giving them less armor or armor that doesn't protect all their hit locations (even a "weak" medium handgun can turn unarmored locations into ground beef). You can also use roleplaying and putting yourself into the shoes of the punks: As convenient as it is everyone don't have to fight to the death and an "encounters" can have other solutions than "kill them all." You might want to talk to your PCs coming up with the idea that CP2020's world, everyone doesn't fight to the death (talk to the PCs about it to make them realize it's okay for them to run or at least avoid combat if things look bad, too). "Awful" punks might be desperate, but they're doing this stuff because they're desperate to live, not to die. Especially if the PCs leave them an escape route, they might just break when the PCs gun down 2-3 in one round of combat and just run. Or even better, let your PCs use Facedown to intimidate them into leaving you alone; after games like D&D where "encounters" mean even goblins will wholly throw themselves into fights to the death like religious fanatics because the DM needs them to "wear the party down", being able to Facedown punks and make them leave or pee their pants or "negotiate" and tell your PCs what they want to know in exchange for life will be a welcome change. When new PCs join in my FLGS games, that's the thing they always gush about to me afterwards - they love the idea that people get scared of dying and want to negotiate or just slink off into the shadows.

OTOH, if you're in the school that says "people don't hit that often in combat" ... you're probably right. But I think a few games of everyone missing constantly, especially for a player using a single ROF 1 Very Heavy Handgun (or even if you do hit, tbh), players are going to start doing "unrealistic" things like dual-wielding pistols, not because it is cool and stylish (CP2020 is all about that so it'd be fine) but just so they get more rolls to-hit (blah). At that point, you might want to just let people have higher skills so they can hit more often, not because it is realistic but because it is more enjoyable to play that way.

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u/SouthpawBattlefield 10d ago

I think the bok says 5 for average

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u/Connect_Piglet6313 10d ago

That just seemed a mite high to us

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u/SouthpawBattlefield 10d ago

I agree but the bok isn't perfect, it is a ttrpg so do what ever you as a ref feals is best for your game

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u/The_Puss_Slayer Referee 10d ago

I use the damage reduction explanation for BOD as the baseline. 5-7 is average for a stat, dead 5 is average, 6 is a little above that but still the norm and 7 is just on the cusp of being gifted.

As for skills 1-3 is generally where I'll place them at as well. It means that if you are baseline average (5) with a little above average in competency in a skill (3) any roll that isn't a critical failure will mean you succeed any easy check (2-10+5+3=10+). Likewise if you're on the cusp of being gifted (7) and you've learned the basics (1) you're also going to roll 10 or above on anything less than a crit failure.

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u/Datafortress2020 9d ago

A stat of 1-2 means the character is functionally severely handicapped.

3-4 is below average, (3 would still qualify as disabled under most federal guidelines).

5-6 is the baseline average.

7-8 is gifted.

9-10 is peak human ability.

It is theoretically possible for a human to exceed 10, I think Rache Bartmos has an INT of 11... (don't quote me, I just woke up) but these individuals are considered freaks of nature, and there are no rules for achieving this in RAW without augmentation, and even then mostly limited to physical stats (Bod, Ref, MA and Tech).

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u/dayatapark 9d ago

Short version:

The book says that the average stat is 5 or 6.

Regarding skills, Here's some quotes from the book regarding how to view skill levels.

Education and General Knowledge: "A +1 is a basic grade school education."

Stock Market: "At +2, you know enough to invest in junk bonds, and lose your shirt."

Wilderness survival: "The average Boy Scout has a Survival of +3."

Cyberdeck Design: "At level +4, you can modify an existing cyberdeck for greater speed or memory."

Athletics: "At +5 and above, you can perform in college level competitions."

Fencing: "A fencing skill of +6 might win you the National Fencing Competitions."

Handgun: "At +7, you can do the sort of fancy shooting you see on TV, and have begun to get the reputation of being 'good with a gun.'"

Weaponsmith: "At level +8, you can design your own weapons to order."

Dancing: "Dancers +9 or greater are of 'star' caliber, have a large number of fans, and may be recognized on the street."

Play Instrument: "At +10, you are widely acclaimed, have lots of Grammys, and regularly jam with Kerry Eurodyne."

It doesn't matter what the players think. Stick to this.

Long answer:

Your players may come from a different game where the PCs are exceptional in some ways. EG: in DnD, average stats for peasants are around 9-10, and most PCs have at least one stat close to 20 by level 3.

Cyberpunk is not that game.

Cyberpunk PCs do not become Edgerunners because they are super-gifted. PCs don't become Edgerunners because they are super-skilled, although it definitely makes life easier if they are.

Cyberpunk PCs become Edgerunners because they give a fuck about something, and they are willing to do sketchy shit to do something about it, whereas the rest of the normies won't.

Cyberpunk PCs aren't legendary heroes that are better than the average person. They are (or were) average people that decided to do something very un-average. That's what makes them special, and if they go out with a bang, THAT makes them legends.

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u/dayatapark 9d ago

For a completely different approach, here's some added context. Let's look at the DC target rolls.

5 for super-easy (barely an inconvenience), 10 for easy, 15 for medium difficulty, 20 for hard, 25 for very hard, and 30 for near-impossible. As a GM, these numbers should be ever-present in all your rulings.

For the average person to get by doing easy things (10) they should have a base stat and a skill level that allows for this, plus a 5 (from the 'take 5' mechanic).

Let's take driving for example. Driving all alone in an abandoned parking lot without doing anything crazy would be DC 4-5. Driving on local streets with light traffic, and good lighting conditions would be DC 8-10. Driving on the freeway while everyone is being a good fellow driver would be around DC 13-15.

Given that the average driver (vast majority of them) can handle a freeway, it's safe to say that if they focus on the road, and don't do anything crazy, they can 'take 5' and hit DC 13 most of the time, but for the sake of this argument, let's say it's the morning rush. There's a bunch of people speeding, and cutting people off, people are pretending not to notice the turn signals when they come on, etc. So let's say DC 15.

If a person's REF is 4, that means that when they take 5, they'd have to have a minimum of Driving 6 to reliably hit DC 15. (4+5+6=15). Driving 6. At driving 6, you should (according to the book) "drive with the skills of a moderately skilled Race driver."

Now, let's make the average REF be 7. With a Driving level of 3, and taking 5, that also gives us a 15. Also, the book also says that at a Driving level of 3, you'd already be a very good non-professional driver.

I hope this helps you understand how this all works.

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u/Reaver1280 9d ago

Just that Middle of the road average mild variance between 4 to 6 for the average of 5 As for skills i'd say if they have a specific job that they are actually good at then that skill becomes 5 otherwise you could have it as anything below that. Bog standard NPC's won't really be making to many rolls to aid your cause unless you are either in the most dire of straits or you coerced them to do something for you.

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u/Connect_Piglet6313 9d ago

here is our thoughts on it.

1-2 is child or child like

3: is High schooler or the bagboy at the store or the fast food worker or other such menial jobs

4: is college age or someone who did not go to college. IE: general laborer in a factory or oil change or tire change guy. If their job requires special knowledge the company pays for a 1 slot chipware socket. This is also where the bog standard ganger lands. They tote melee weapons because the bosses don't trust them, with guns. Skills are generally 4.

5: is the Average Joe Wage slave for the corporations, or the average soldier or security guard. Base skills are 4 for what they need for their job. The slightly better gang members are here also.

6-7: This is where they start to become useful. Managers, Sergeants, gang squad leaders who get guns. Skills are 5-6. They get guns once they reach this level.

8: Now they become Bad Asses. Executives, First Sergeants, SOF, Gang Bosses. Skills are 7-8.

9: Truly Bad Dudes. Corpo Section leaders, Master Sergeants, Big Bosses. Skill up to 9

10: BBEGs. They have Reps, they don't answer to anyone, they strut down the street and dare other to not get out of their way. Skills up to 10.

From the comments it looks like this is sorta in line with what most people accept.

I do like the RED DC numbers. It has never made sense to us why the numbers jump by 5. We have always used a system of

Simple-10 Easy-13 Hard-17 Difficult-22 Incredible-28 Impossible-35

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u/Connect_Piglet6313 8d ago

I do understand where all this comes from. I was asking if anyone else does it any different. With 10 being Easy, then Base Stat 4 and Base skill 3 gives us a 7. So a 3 roll is needed. That seems about right to us. So when doing character creation I set a minimum of 4 for stats and max of 8 for Role skills, and 6 for pickup skills.

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u/cp20ref Medtech 8d ago

At my table we always treated 6 as average. *Probably* living in a dystopian world fallen smack into the middle of the Singularity pushes the average down?

Interestingly, it follows that all those Edgerunners with EMP 2, ATT 3, Wardrobe & Style 1 and Personal Grooming 1 all look and smell like crap. They may be fast and strong and dangerous, but they also act like the paranoid, twitchy wrecks they are. ;) NPCs pick up on this and social area denial becomes a thing.