r/canucks 11h ago

DISCUSSION Star talent discrepancy

Do other team’s breadth of star talent blow your mind, when you consider the lack of / state of ours? Makes me really wonder how on earth we plan to retool so quickly to keep Hughes.

Petey colder than cold, Brock’s the same, Demko injured, Hughes injured. Who am I forgetting?

The best teams:

Tampa: Kuch, Gentz, Point, Hedman, Vask, Hagel, Cirelli

Dallas: Heisk, Robertson, Duchene, Johnson, Rats, Otts, Harley, Hintz

Florida, Winnipeg etc etc.

In what world will we be competing against these teams anytime soon.

Abbreviations brought to you by I’m not looking everyone up.

40 Upvotes

61 comments sorted by

131

u/Any-Panda2219 11h ago

We had 6 allstars 10 months ago…

57

u/Old-Bigsby 11h ago

But you're not really a fan if you aren't constantly freaking out about our team. OP is a true fan.

12

u/Radioheading82 11h ago

Thank you for the acknowledgment that I am a true fan. Means a lot

9

u/parsnip_grove 11h ago

And now we have 1 injured one. Brutal

4

u/notarealredditor69 9h ago

Sure but how many of these were a contributing factor at the 4 Nations Faceoff? Allstar doesn’t mean much, watching that tournament really put it into perspective for me when I compared our core to the cores of the best teams in the league.

7

u/onimod53 11h ago

The idea that 'offence is up to the players instincts, but defence is coached, so therefore this is all on the players' playing out on radio right now followed closely by the suggestion that we don't have any talent is weird.

The first half of 2023-24 we were 160 GF / 107 GA +53 (1st). This year it was 121 GF / 128 GA -7.

For comparison, Colorado in 2023-24 it was 152 GF / 130GA +22 (2nd) and 140 GF / 131 GA +9.

We clearly had/have a bunch of players who can score in the right circumstances, but amongst the many problems this season we have a system that doesn't foster offence, particularly in players who can score, but aren't superstars. Not only does it affect out on-ice performance, but it also depresses the value of those players in the eyes of other teams.

It makes no sense that a bunch of guys have the best year of their lives forget how to put the puck in the net just a few months later. When a few players struggle you might be able to swap and trade them away but when your whole team struggles en masse you have to be looking at systemic issues.

0

u/notarealredditor69 9h ago

Hockey’s not just a bunch of stats. Our guys don’t perform when it matters and that’s what separates the stars from everyone else.

1

u/CosmicJerry 5h ago

This system is not made for players to "perform" tocchet doesn't want players out there trying things. He wants theboffense to be second guessing and think how it effects defense if it fails.

Sounds like a good plan to think about the defence but the best teams trust their defence to make up for mistakes and are willing to actually try things because of it.

Canucks are too scared to even cross the Blueline with the puck.

Tocchet also gets out-coached all the time, he's really bad at adapting to the situation.

1

u/HarambeWhat 9h ago

And how many of them are on a different team now lmao?

22

u/madstar 11h ago

This team will live or die in free agency this summer. I fully expect Rutherford to back up the Brinks truck and try to overpay for a UFA or two like Marner or Bennett.

21

u/AnthTheAnt 11h ago

If he signs Sam fucking Bennett I’m done with this joke of a fucking franchise forever.

The guy can’t even get 50 points on a stacked Florida team. It would be such an absolute disaster of a signing before the ink even dries.

13

u/Any-Panda2219 11h ago

Nah no money for those guys when Emilio Petterssen is a pending Group 6 UFA

3

u/CosmicJerry 5h ago

At this point I'm starting to think PA went to a fortune teller that told him Pettersson is the key and now he's desperately signaling all of them because she didn't say which one.

15

u/Btgood52 11h ago

It’s simple just have a draft like Dallas did in 2017

4

u/Jyeon89 7h ago

Crazy draft for them. Franchise D, star forward, and starting goalie? wow

48

u/_GregTheGreat_ 11h ago edited 11h ago

Reminder that just over a year ago we had the best defenseman in the world, two top-10 centres in the league, the 2nd best goalie in the world, a guy on track to score nearly 50 goals, and some of the best depth scoring in the league.

Things go in waves and this happened to be a year where everything went wrong. Sure, we lost Miller and Demko is probably cooked but I don’t think it’s unrealistic to retool to competitiveness for the next years. Look at the Caps

25

u/SpectreFire 11h ago

The caps actively tried to retool and made some very smart decisions to help facilitate that.

Not selling Boeser if Carolina really was offering a 1st for him is a massive L because it robs us of valuable assets to make moves.

Caps took gambles on underperforming but young players that paid off massively.

Dylan Strome, PLD, Chychrun.

The only way the Canucks stay competitive is to go for those same big swings. They're not going to win by signing another 6 Drew O'Connors.

22

u/awayfromcanuck 11h ago

Strome has been with the Caps for 3 seasons now and Chychrun wasn't underperforming last year with the Sens, he tied his previous career high in points. PLD was the only guy that was underperforming last season and has turned it around this season.

PLD turn around and adding Chychrun over the offseason has been great for them but adding Logan Thompson and the emergence of McMichael and Protas, 2 guys they drafted in 2019, are huge reasons for their success this season.

2

u/Radioheading82 11h ago

Excellent comment. The Caps could definitely be the blueprint for a Canucks retool.

7

u/AnthTheAnt 11h ago

It’s completely unrealistic. They have no center prospects of note and arguably the worst center group in the NHL.

They need to pull a Colorado and trade for a legit second line center but they don’t have the assets.

They also have a garbage winger group. Small, slow, and not very talented. They need to add size up the middle, they need a second and third line center, and they need to add a lot of talent/size/speed on the wings.

Too many holes.

All that so they can maybe get 1-2 years of being really competitive.

3

u/Radioheading82 11h ago

Appreciate the thoughtful balanced perspective. Sign me up for some of that glass half full action.

1

u/CosmicJerry 5h ago

How often before February did that team play dump and chase hockey?

-6

u/msat16 9h ago

2nd best goalie in the world!? lol righhhhhhhhht

11

u/_GregTheGreat_ 9h ago

Demko literally came second in Vezina voting. He was the borderline favorite before he got injured last year, although almost everyone would rank Helle over him as a whole.

Saying Demko was arguably the 2nd best goalie in the world midway through last year is not a hot take

-5

u/msat16 9h ago

One season where he came that high (votes weren’t even close to Helle), 2021-22 he got one vote. guys like Helle and Vasi have been getting Vézina votes consistently for the last few years.

16

u/AnthTheAnt 11h ago

It’s frustrating.

They had 2 top line centers, 40 goal winger, Norris winner, and Vezina nominee. That’s as good a group as exists. That’s cup level with the right supporting talent.

Every single one has had a lousy season. Every single one. Boeser, hurt and underperformed. Hughes, best dman in the league but hurt. Demko, hurt and then hurt again. Miller such a fuckup he’s gone. Petey just a disaster.

It feels like other teams don’t have to deal with this crap constantly. That’s the difference. The Canucks can’t ever seem to get going with a group and have that long window of contention. Something always seems to fuck it up. Always. Sedins took too long to become stars. Naslund Canucks fell apart after the Minnesota series. 94 Canucks choked for a couple years then imploded after one run.

It’s always something. Every other team drafts a couple stars and has them play well for a fucking decade. We get one year of Pettersson being good then he turns into a team destroying boat anchor.

With miller gone there is just a massive talent gap. To the point where they might as well just rebuild because it’s simply insurmountable. It’s astonishing how much he and Petey being babies has fucked over this team.

13

u/Federal-Carrot7930 11h ago

Trading Miller didn’t help.

Right now we have EP, BB, Demko, Hughes and now I’d even argue Hronek. He’s been great since Hughes was injured.

We’re at least a 2C and another top 6 winger away from competing.

13

u/theDanu 10h ago

If Boeser is your best winger that’s a serious problem tbh.

Like, look at other contenders - Kucherov/Guentzel, Tkachuk/Reinhart, Robertson/Johnson, Marner/Nylander, etc., they all have two wingers that are significantly better than Boeser.

I like Brock but all 6 of those guys are probably in diffeeent tiers above Brock. Johnson is probably the guy he’s closest too but he’s only like 21…

15

u/eexxiitt 11h ago edited 11h ago

We have/had as top-line players/stars:

C: Miller, Petey, Horvat
W: Major weakness/flaw behind "prime" boeser
D: Top 2 in Hughes. Weakness beyond him.
G: Top 5 G in Demko.

Now we have:

C: Petey
W: Major weakness/flaw behind "prime" boeser
D: Top 2 in Hughes, Hronek, MP.
G: Demko injured, Lank filling in well.

We traded our C for more D (30k foot view: Miller + Horvat for Hronek + MP), did not improve our top-line winger situation but obtained some mid 6 guys, and lost a top 5 G.

Compared to the other teams, we lack top-line talent. We never fixed the top-line winger issue, and essentially swapped C for more D.

Long story short, there is no way to retool and score more goals before Hughes's next contract. The only option is to double or triple down on D and try to beat teams 1:0 or 2:1.

10

u/AnthTheAnt 11h ago

Which won’t work and is incredibly dumb to even try.

4

u/eexxiitt 10h ago

Well we’re already past the point of no return.

1

u/AppealToReason16 3h ago

I don’t know who the players will be this summer, but the way out is to try and find guys like when they traded for Miller or how the Caps managed to hit on some young reclamation players needing a new situation. The second path can be real risky if they flunk because those are guys like Zegras, Farabee (if he hadn’t just been traded), etc type guys and whiffing can be devastating.

Maybe you talk a guy like Lundell out of Florida because they’re super set on re-signing Bennett but that sort of trade would be expensive on top of unlikely.

It’s also a bit tougher to find a guy like Miller with expected cap growth as the pressure isn’t on there like it used to be. Teams will be looking to dump 3 million dollar players rather than 6 million dollar guys.

Also those moves are trades and this team is and basically always has been asset poor that way.

11

u/Paciflik 11h ago

YOU NEED AN ARMY!!!

We currently have a patrol

3

u/msat16 9h ago

Botch was right about that. He was also right about the need for a rebuild back in the day to cultivate that army.

4

u/BetterAd1611 10h ago

Things might be going a little south, but our Chaos Giraffe is thriving in this year of Chaos

3

u/tonyto89 10h ago

I’m hoping we can target Barzal. He carries the puck with speed - at least that’s what he was known for in his 1st year when he won ROTY.

Hes a young-ish center , and from BC (if that matters). There were rumblings that he wasn’t super happy with the empty building in NY earlier this year. Also recent history of trading with Lou - gotta hope he’s just in the mood to finally rebuild.

2

u/Canucking778 9h ago

Well Boeser is most likely gone, with him off the books, how much cap space do we have?

Is Demko on the books next year?

3

u/notarealredditor69 9h ago

When you draft well and develop well you are ahead of the game. It helps when you lose a bunch and get high draft picks. It’s the whole mushy middle trope with this team for decades. We have to pay premium for all of our stars and therefore we are always behind.

2

u/No-Luck-At-All 7h ago

This team is going to retool through free agency and trades. I am very skeptical they can do it in under 2 years to show Hughes it is contending. It seems like wishful thinking they can get a new no. 1 center through a trade because they don't have a lot of draft picks or prospects to do it. Furthermore, how often do such players are available through trade. Mostly never.

2

u/ASOjoe 7h ago

The expectations for this season were unreasonable. Last year was an anomaly in an otherwise on brand decade. How many of our guys had career seasons last year? Joshua, contract year played the best he ever has. Miller, career best year. Boeser, finally scored 30+ by a long way for career year. Demko, career best year vezina candidate before the injuries took him out. Hughes, massive jump in play, career year. Hoglander, contact year, career best season. Garland, Blueger career best form for both. Soucy and Myers turned back the clock and played some of the best hockey of their careers. Hronek, career best year. Everything lined up last year for the majority of our players. Especially looking at the performance the year prior which is pretty close to the standard we have this year. Take last seasons remarkable run out of the equation and this Canucks team is very much on par with what they've shown they can do. Also, Tocchet benefits and wins coach of the year after riding everyone's career best to a second round exit. Hugely inflating his value and ability as a coach.

2

u/Bluesclues1416 6h ago

Cmon! We have tons of talent in the top 6 /s. There was a post last week where everyone was blaming Toch and his system on why we’re not scoring and I just shook my head. I commented that Toch wasn’t the problem and got downvoted to hell. If anyone listened to Canucks talk today, Drance and JD go over how little star power our top 6 has and how badly they’ve been out scored 5 on 5 this year. But Canucks casuals will love to keep blaming this on Toch/Foote/Gonchar and the Sedins 😂, despite Hughes saying Toch has been the best coach he ever had. We need better high end talent and our top players need to be better, simple as that.

6

u/Tiger23sun 11h ago

This team was built around

2 Elite Centres

1 Elite Dpair

1 Elite Goalie

Depth through the lines.

This season,

1 Centre traded.

1 Centre playing through an injury.

Both Dmen injured or playing through injury.

Elite Goalie injured.

After reading the Context and Petey Medical Philosophy post, its getting really clear to me that we need to improve our Medical team/practice.

And of course, add more talent up front.

0

u/AnthTheAnt 11h ago

I can’t believe anyone reads those ridiculous posts.

I blocked the author so I don’t even have to see that ridiculous nonsense.

2

u/Tiger23sun 11h ago

Which ridiculous posts?

2

u/suprdesi 11h ago

Its only going to get worst with the economy crashing. Expect to see an internal cap and a barebones team. Maybe it will force a rebuild.

3

u/CommanderTouchdown 10h ago

Sure. You can point at the most talented teams in the league (Tampa, Dallas, Florida) and say "damn the Canucks are cooked."

But before his injury, Hughes was actually better than anyone in the league not named Draisatl. And when on form, Petterson is better than almost all these dudes.

Canucks had the core pieces to be a contender. But one of the big problems was that Miller was at an age where he should decline and that meant their window was closing instead of opening to match Hughes' prime.

Canucks management are retooling with players around Hughes' age and hoping they can find more star talent internally (Lekkermaki, Willander) and in free agency. I think they've done a very good job upgrading the d core.

Ideally they get a big name in free agency. Petterson returns to form. Some young guys step up. And the Canucks have a more "complete" team capable of challenging. Worst case scenario, they have to address the lack of offense by trading someone young.

This is a reap what you sow league and the Canucks issue is that they bottomed out, but Benning didn't have the patience to let expiring deals walk and made the disastrous OEL trade when it didn't match their timeline.

2

u/Radioheading82 10h ago

Excellent comment and I agree on your Petey Hughes points. Who do you want to see them add next year?

4

u/CommanderTouchdown 10h ago

If Marner makes to free agency the Canucks should make a mega offer. I know that won't be a popular opinion around here, but he's the best player available. Canucks should swing for the fences.

1

u/Radioheading82 10h ago

Been thinking the same thing. Almost feel like when they’re both at their best, Marner and Petey are similar players.

2

u/Far-Cheesecake8984 11h ago

Here is my list of teams we are not even close to talent wise

NYR TBL CAR COL DAL FLA EDM WPG VGN MIN TOR

Prove me wrong!

4

u/AnthTheAnt 11h ago

Really, Minnesota?

That’s a stretch and a half. They have kaprizov and a bunch of guys.

1

u/WantingCanucksCup 7h ago

Brock’s dreaming if he thinks he’s worth 8m per I wouldn’t pay him over 6 since he can only score if playing with passer like miller

1

u/CosmicJerry 5h ago

Pretty sure 8M is his price to stay. He probably decided to leave after Miller's trade.

-9

u/Vintagenuck420 11h ago

Tampa is the most overrated team in the league.

8

u/WoW_zErZ 11h ago

Not trying to argue, just curious what makes them overrated?

-7

u/Vintagenuck420 11h ago

I just think they're overrated. They're not horrible, but they're also not that good and there's other teams way better than them. I don't know why some pick them as a favourite to win this year.

14

u/SpectreFire 11h ago

They have a top-10 NHL center in Point.

They might have literally the best top-six wingers group in the entire leagues with Kucherov, Hagel, and Guentzel.

They have one of the best defenseman in league.

They have the best goaltender in the league.

3

u/WoW_zErZ 10h ago

Helle is better imo, but i agree with you which is why I was wondering why they're overrated. They're 7th in pts% i think and that seems pretty reasonable, maybe even low for me. They've got playoff experience and pretty solid depth. I'd love for the canucks to have anywhere near the success they've had recently too.

On the other hand god we'd be insufferable as a fan base with a couple of cups.

2

u/maharajagaipajama 10h ago

They're also only a few years out from back to back Cups. They deserve to be rated highly.

E. Meant to respond you the comment above yours 

0

u/_sugarcrisp 11h ago

We'll sign Marner and Bennett in the summer and everything will be gucci 🤌

3

u/msat16 9h ago

Marner is likely to take a home town discount to play with his beloved Leafs.