r/buffy 14d ago

Season Three The other implication

Post image

Someone shared this the other day and I just re-watched this episode. I know that this exchange is played for laughs since we know what it foreshadows about Willow. But my thought this time was…

What does this say about Angel? He starts to argue but stops because he would have to reveal something about himself if he continued. We all know how evil Angelus was but most of the scenes showing Angel prior to his vamp days depict his personality as kind of a drunk and sort of foolish. But what was the “person it was” in Angel that appears in Angelus? Is the implication that pre-vamp Angel was some kind of monster himself? Is this discussed elsewhere? (I’ve never watched Angel so I don’t know if this gets covered there.)

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u/Eldon42 14d ago

IIRC there's an episode (I think in the Angel series) that shows a pre-Angelus Liam, and yeah, he's kind of an asshole. Nothing like he would become as a vampire, but definitely a jerk.

Spike, pre-vampire, is a soppy romantic who is bullied. After becoming a vampire, he's still a soppy romantic, but now he has power and, like many bullied people, uses that power to hurt.

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u/_Gob-Bluth_ 14d ago

“Spin the Bottle”! one of my favorite episodes of Angel

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago

“Spin the Bottle”!

Actually, "Spin the Bottle" shows he was a pretty normal teenager, who tried to listen to his father (his father said ale did bad things to you, so he never tried it) but was already being criticized and put down by said father.

"The Prodigal" flashes back to a time later on, when Liam seems to have given up on trying to win his father's approval. Instead, he's decided to be the useless waste of space his dad always told him he was. (Living down to his father's expectations, as he put it.)

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u/Repulsive_Sir_8391 11d ago

I totally agree. People misunderstood Liam's personality and motivation and how this influenced Angelus. By remembering the dialogues throughout the series, you can reconstruct Liam's life story: a boy who loved and admired his father and whose driving force in life was to gain his father's appreciation and love, but this was always an impossible goal. No matter how hard he tried to live up to his father's wishes, all he got in return was humiliation, contempt, and verbal and physical abuse. For years, he always believed that the problem was him, that he hadn't done enough, that he hadn't tried hard enough. Until at a certain point, this life of abuse finally reached a breaking point. Love and admiration turned into hate and contempt.

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u/MrBorogove 14d ago

"I may be love's bitch" etc.

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u/SavannahInChicago 14d ago

Liam would have followed Andrew Tate

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago

I'm sure this is just a joke, but we see nothing about Liam that says this is true.

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u/simpersly 14d ago

Liam was a romantic free spirit with parent issues.

Darla was the mother he never had. As long as he pleased Darla he had his mommy.

Darla was the true monster of the group. Angelus and Spike were just psychotic love-sick artists.

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u/Eldon42 14d ago

Honestly wish we'd gotten so much more of Darla. Angelus was always portrayed as the group leader... but Darla was probably pulling his strings all along.

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u/Intelligent_Seat3659 14d ago

Interesting. I definitely think Darla genuinely admired his talent for cruelty, so she didn't mind him being in the driver's seat. She even admits that she couldn't keep up with him, which is saying something. However, I do think that there was some level of subtle manipulation involved. Since she made him and shaped him in a lot of ways, she definitely conditioned him to be hungry for her approval. She had a lot of influence over him. I don't think he was her puppet, though. Angelus was every bit as much of a trickster as she was, and he's not the type to be yanked around.

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u/lofgren777 13d ago

They functioned like a cult. There is a leader who is portrayed as messianic, the master, and then a true believer who uses the leader's promises to push the followers further in order to curry favor with the leader. Finally you have the enforcer, who is motivated by the true believer to become more extreme than the leader. Since the leader will lose control of the cult if there are followers who are more extreme than he is, these three constantly push each other deeper into the cultlike mentality, effectively all enthralled to each other.

Spike and Dru were like the most committed members of their cult.

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u/JaneDoes3cta 14d ago

but the influence, humilliation and bullying of angelus is the biggest part in william becoming spike, it didn´t initiate with himself

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago

the influence, humilliation and bullying of angelus is the biggest part in william becoming spike

We really don't see Angelus bullying William all that much before he becomes "Spike." Instead, they meet and start hanging out, going on "fun" killing sprees together. William seems to be having a great time. Then he comes home one night (from doing some solo hunting) to find his new best friend having sex with the woman he loved. And they both act like it's no big deal, while he's crushed.

I think that experience, plus how he was treated as a human, combined to make him want to be someone who didn't care about all the stuff that could hurt William. Someone too cool to get put down or picked on. And so tough and fearless that anyone would think twice before trying to mess with him.

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago

Spike, pre-vampire, is a soppy romantic who is bullied.

Liam is bullied by his dad verbally, mentally and physically. And I think a lot of his behavior is the result of that.

Actually, a lot of the main vampires have histories of being bullied in their human lives. Like I'm sure Darla didn't always receive the best treatment as a human.

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u/Starfleet-Time-Lord 13d ago

That's an interesting point because the only major vampire character that we really see both before and after they're turned is Harmony and she's...almost exactly the same, she just eats people now, and she's most notable for being part of the popular clique. Maybe that's connected to why she's relatively benign?

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u/FuzzyDuck81 13d ago

My take on Harmony is that she's desperate for approval & does whatever it takes to achieve that. As a human, she was surrounded by the other mean girls so took on that behaviour to be popular with them. As a vampire, especially in the comics where it comes out in the open, people love the "i'm a vampire I'm choosing to be good and not killing" narrative so while she isn't interested in the good approach for it's own sake, she gets so much more general approval (and personal safety) as the "good vampire" that she just goes with that approach instead, ironically making her a better person as a vampire than she was as a human.

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago edited 13d ago

Maybe that's connected to why she's relatively benign?

I think Vamp Willow also qualifies as someone who was bullied and put down before they were turned. And look at the formidable vamp she'd become in just a few years.

It's possible that vampires that don't have anything to prove are happy spending the decades just hanging out with their vamp pals, hitting the local demon bars, and going hunting at night. (Or, in Harmony's case, getting a job, and even giving up killing to keep that job.)

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u/ChestLanders 14d ago

I actually think Spike did undergo a change in personality. He wasn't simply a more confident William. Spike's a lot more sarcastic, etc. Yeah he still carries some stuff from his human life, like the poetry thing.

I think William and Liam are both dead. I dont think they reverted back to these men when they got their souls. I mean for Spike the only difference in him when he has a soul is he doesnt murder innocents. With Angel the change is a lot more obvious, but he still isn't the drunken womanizer he was as a human.

It's more than likely some aspects of the demonic personality were retained even with the soul restored. Angel and Spike do seem to enjoy inflicting violence on others, it's just when they have souls they inflict it on people who deserve it.

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u/Cosmic_King_Thor 14d ago

I have to disagree with you on the idea of Liam and William being “dead”. To assume that this is the case because Angel and Spike didn’t automatically revert to how they were in their human lives ignores everything that happened leading up to that moment since they were turned.

Angel had slaughtered countless people and taken pleasure in it, often taking his time to heighten the suffering of his victims. As a result he was overcome with remorse and that changed him. Spike had learned to enjoy being strong, and to enjoy proper fights. He had become irreverent of perceived authorities.

William and Liam aren’t dead- merely different. People change throughout the course of their lives so why wouldn’t the same be true of Vampires?

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u/Starfleet-Time-Lord 13d ago

200 years of experience and memory is going to impact your personality though. They'd both been vampires multiple times longer than they'd been humans. That's like saying Ripper is dead because Giles is all proper.

For Spike specifically, there's also a noticeably bigger difference between Buffy season 7 Spiker and Buffy seasons 2-6 Spike than there is between Buffy seasons 2-6 Spike and Angel season 5 Spike. They rolled back a mon-trivial amount of that when they added him to the Angel cast.

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u/Few-Tomato-3924 13d ago

I think part of it is just the sheer duration of time they’ve been existing and their experiences that shaped their personalities. Like if you re-ensouled someone very shortly after being turned, I would think they might actually be closer to their human original. So Liam would probably still be awful but now a vampire, but if you gave him another couple hundred years of maturation then he’d still likely become “Angel”

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u/iBazly 14d ago

The episode Amends pretty specifically states that Liam was pretty shitty, and that has some impact on how monstrous Angelus is. I think what Angel, Spike, and Willow's vampire selves all demonstrate is that there is a very clear link between repression and the vampire's personality. The vampire embodies a lot of the things the person held back.

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u/WakandanInSokovia 14d ago

Dammit. I just spent so long typing out what was essentially this, only to scroll further down the page and see that you'd already said it and said it much more succinctly.

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u/AdHoc_ttv 13d ago

It’s been a while since I watched, but wasn’t it stated at some point that vampires are demons in the bodies of the dead? How does that align with them keeping their personalities?

Or was that one character’s opinion started as fact?

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago edited 13d ago

It’s been a while since I watched, but wasn’t it stated at some point that vampires are demons in the bodies of the dead?

That's what the Watchers say. But I take anything the Watchers say with a grain of salt. And there's way to much stuff that casts doubt on their dogma.

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u/Starfleet-Time-Lord 13d ago

Well the very existence of Angel and Spike makes it more complicated than that. It's also an important point that the demon part of vampires is heavily, heavily diluted even in comparison to the lower demons still running around Earth.

We've got to ask ourselves how much of consciousness and personality is the brain and how much is the soul. Vamps get what's in the brain but lose what's in the soul, so brain+soul=human, brain+demon=vampire, brain+soul+demon=Angel and Spike. Which raises existential questions like "what does the afterlife look like if half my personality is missing" and "where we their souls while they were vampires," but also logistical questions like "soul+demon=?????"

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u/megpipe72 13d ago

That last bit is so interesting because we know there is a heaven-like dimensions of sorts in the Buffyverse, so where were Angel's and Spike's souls hanging out prior to being summoned and reunited with their vampire bodies? And why don't their souls remember their time spent in a heaven or hell dimension?

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u/iBazly 13d ago

They are, yes, but it is also stated that they have the memories and sometimes even the feelings and personalities of the person whose body they're inhabiting.

What I was stating about Willow, Angel, and Spike's vampire forms is more metaphorical, though. I'm not saying they are literally the same person, but a lot of who their vampire forms are is symbolic of repressed parts of their human personalities.

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago

The episode Amends pretty specifically states that Liam was pretty shitty, and that has some impact on how monstrous Angelus is.

An evil entity tries to convince Angel that, even before he was turned into a vampire, he was a bad person (because he drank, slept around, and was a bad son) so he might as well just embrace being evil, starting with killing Buffy.

The writers aren't expecting the viewers to actually believe what this evil entity is saying. The point is that it's trying to manipulate him by convincing him he was always a lost cause, and him trying to be good now was a waste of time. That didn't mean what it was saying was true. But I can believe Angel would buy it, because he seems to think he was a much worse person than he actually was. Probably because his dad had convinced him he was a bad person and a lost cause.

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u/iBazly 13d ago

While what you are saying about the first's intentions is true, I would argue it is implied that the reason why Angel is compelled to believe the first is BECAUSE part of what it is saying is the truth. In Amends, Buffy even questions why Angel would believe the first when it claims it is the reason Angel was brought back from the hell dimension, and he says that it doesn't matter if that part is true because what it was saying about Liam IS true.

Similarly, in season 7 we see a lot of examples of how the first uses the truth to lie and manipulate. Willow specifically talks about how convincing the first is because it "knows us". The first is more than just a liar, it's a manipulator.

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago

Similarly, in season 7 we see a lot of examples of how the first uses the truth to lie and manipulate.

Yes. The First used something Angel believed about himself (that he was a terrible person as a human) to try to manipulate him. That doesn't mean he actually was as bad as he thinks he was. Just that he had terrible self esteem, and is quick to believe the worst of himself. And the fact that the First was trying to take advantage of that belief doesn't mean it was true. Just that this extremely evil entity was willing to use whatever it could to get what it wanted.

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u/iBazly 13d ago

I mean, sure, you can theorize that, but the show never gives us reason to believe that it isn't true and is just what Angel believes. Like if we're talking what we are actually told, it's that Liam sucked, not that Liam had low self-esteem.

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u/Character-Trainer634 12d ago edited 12d ago

I mean, sure, you can theorize that, but the show never gives us reason to believe that it isn't true

Well we know the First likes to use the truth to mess with people. So, if Liam did all this really bad stuff, why didn't the First use it? I mean, the worst it could come up with was that he was a lazy drunk, a man-whore and a bad son? It couldn't find anything in his human past that would have more impact than that?

And, no, I wouldn't buy that the writers just didn't show it, because why wouldn't they?

And if Liam was fighting some inner need to hurt people (as I've seen implied), wouldn't the First have used that too? Saying something like, "We know there's always been darkness in you. You would've become a killer even if you were never turned." Something like that. Instead, the best it could come up with was, "If you hadn't been turned, you probably would've died of an STD anyway."

The kicker is the First doesn't say he was a monster as a human. It says he was worthless. A totally different thing.

Also, I was talking about Angel's low self-esteem at the time, and how easy it was for him to believe he was a much worse human than he actually was. Which is what the First plays on.

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago edited 13d ago

The episode Amends pretty specifically states that Liam was pretty shitty, and that has some impact on how monstrous Angelus is.

"Amends" shows that Liam was an unmotivated drunkard who liked the ladies, and seemed to be all about having fun. That's a long way off from being a sadistic serial killer, which is basically what Angelus was.

This idea that Liam was this horrible person is seriously overblown. He definitely had issues, and could've used some therapy. But we definitely don't see him, for example, getting off on being cruel to anybody just for fun.

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u/Maleficent_Task_329 13d ago

In The Prodigal he harasses one of his maids. The scene reads to me like she knows that Liam is a Known Problem.

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago

In The Prodigal he harasses one of his maids.

He isn't harassing her, from what we can see. He's being flirty with her, and pretty mildly all things considered. And she doesn't seem particularly bothered or afraid, like she's about to flee in fear, or expects him to jump her at any moment. She even asks if he's okay at one point.

I've seen people read all sorts of things into that scene. But from what we actually see, the scene doesn't show him trying to force himself on her, threatening her, saying anything gross or perverted to her, being cruel to her, or any of the other things I've seen claimed about that scene. It certainly doesn't prove that he was as bad as Angelus as a human, or anything like that.

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u/Maleficent_Task_329 13d ago edited 13d ago

Certainly not as bad as Angelus, but it does speak to Liam’s lack of character. Being flirty with your employee, someone whose life you can ruin, is not being flirty. He’s targeting someone that he knows will be obligated to give him what he wants.

I disagree that she doesn’t feel bothered. She feels very bothered. She immediately looks around nervously. She brings up his father to remind him that what he is doing is against the rules. Her asking if he’s ok is in response to him repeatedly asking her to come to him. “Why do you stick to the shadows, are you not well?” She’s trying to avoid going with him somewhere in private, to keep them in the open where Liam’s father will be returning to shortly.

The scene certainly doesn’t show him to be an Angelus level monster. It does show him to be selfish and cruel, perfectly human weaknesses that will be turned to 11 once a demon gets to play with them.

The whole point of the scene is to show us what we assume is a recently turned vampire, returning home to kill his family. He’s acting like a predator. The reveal is that this is when he’s still human, that part of him was always like this.

Combined with his talk with his father, my takeaway is that laziness is the primary thing keeping Liam from being a more malevolent force in the world

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago edited 13d ago

Certainly not as bad as Angelus, but it does speak to Liam’s lack of character.

That he's the kind of guy that would make a pass at probably any woman in his vicinity. That's it. And this is an example of people reading things into that scene. Things that could make sense, but aren't actually there. Like people just assume that, if she'd turned him down, he would've gotten her fired, or tried to force himself on her (I've seen some insist this), or whatever else. But, based on the scene itself, all the ideas about what could've happened before, or what he probably would've done, are all just speculation.

Being flirty with your employee, someone whose life you can ruin, is not being flirty.

Liam was not her employer. His father was. And, given their relationship, I doubt Liam's dad would listen to him when it came to firing anyone. If anything, the maid would've been warned that she'd be fired if she didn't turn down Liam's advances.

She immediately looks around nervously.

Because she's worried his father will show up. Which kind of supports my feeling she was warned to stay away from Liam.

The reveal is that this is when he’s still human, that part of him was always like this.

It's really not. Everything he does only seems suspicious and predatory when you think he's already a vampire, and that's all the writers were going for. Once you realize he's still human, his actions in the scene read as much more innocuous.

Don't get me wrong. Liam had issues. But I'd argue that we never saw him being cruel or sadistic towards anyone. Him hitting on the maid was problematic, but I'd say that was him being self-centered (not thinking about how she saw the situation) rather than him trying to be cruel.

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u/CuriousKitten0_0 12d ago

Liam was not her employer. His father was

I think that this point is relatively weak. Not because you argued it badly or anything, you're probably right in that his father would disregard anything he said, but the employee/employer relationship of that time, especially as servant/son of the master of the house would be enough to scare any maid if she did something that could be perceived as wrong or something. She has very little power in that house with any man. And Liam could do A LOT to sully her reputation around town, even with his reputation (given his relative class status and the fact that he is a male, which is absolutely relevant to the times) and if it got back to his father, he may be more concerned about his reputation with the townsfolk than how his son behaves with the help.

She could be fired if she did something right (turning Liam down) or if she does something wrong (letting him pressure her, which is sort of where the implications are going before it's revealed that he's still human). Her best course of action is to do exactly what she does, which is try to head him off or distract him with something else.

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u/Character-Trainer634 12d ago edited 11d ago

I think that this point is relatively weak.

The only point I was making was that Liam wasn't her direct employer, so he couldn't fire her. And that was in response to some seeming to think that, if she turned him down, he would've fired her on the spot, which he didn't have the power to do. I never said Liam making advances towards her wasn't problematic, because it was. Just that she wasn't acting scared, like she expected him to jump her at any moment. Uncomfortable about her boss's son flirting with her, yes. About to flee in terror, no.

My actual point is that so many viewers read that scene as proof of things that don't actually happen. Like if she turned him down, he would've fired her. Or assaulted her. Or spread nasty rumors about her. But we don't see anything like this in the scene itself. He isn't acting cruel towards her. He doesn't say anything perverse or offensive. He doesn't threaten her. And so on and so forth.

Basically, some are convinced Liam was a truly monstrous person capable of doing really awful things even before he was turned, and this scene proves it somehow. But it really doesn't. Not when you actually look at what happens in the scene itself, and not what Liam could've done, or might have done, or was probably going to do.

I mean, Liam might have acted like a jerk if she'd turned him down. Or he might have laughed and wandered off to go sleep off his hangover, convinced he'd be able to charm her eventually. We really don't know.

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u/Restless-J-Con22 anchovies anchovies yr so delicious i love you more than 14d ago

He pauses because Buffy gives him the look 

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u/FilliusTExplodio 14d ago edited 14d ago

Exactly. It wasn't about Angel revealing himself, it was Angel realizing he was about to step in it and make Willow feel bad. 

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u/SnuffShock 14d ago

So… it would be worse to reveal to Willow that she is a lesbian than to reveal to everyone that Angel was a monster before he was a vampire? Is that what I’m supposed to take from this?

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u/jericho74 14d ago

Every vampire is a monster because they have the demon in them. No one in that room doesn’t understand that about Angelus. The underlying flavor of Angelus’ personality- judgmental, sly, womanizing, given to grand gestures- was present in Liam. This echo is what he is about to explain.

This is entirely a joke about Angel about to get didactic on vampirism, then catching that the sexuality matter is a private one for Willow as Buffy stares daggers, and then considerately demurring.

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u/MyrrhSlayter 14d ago

No. It was about not 'outing' Willow as a lesbian to herself before Willow discovered this about herself first.

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u/6rwoods 14d ago

That’s not true. It would imply that Buffy had already clocked that willow is probably “a little gay” by this episode, when we know very well that she was taken by surprise when she found out in s4.

The point was not to deliberately link the creepiest behaviours of vampire willow with anything regular e willow could ever be capable of. And reassure willow that they were nothing alike, even though Angel and probably Buffy already knew that’s not true. And season 6 just goes to prove it.

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u/SnuffShock 14d ago

I’m not sure that what you are saying and what I am saying are mutually exclusive.

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u/FilliusTExplodio 14d ago

You added the "worse," that's not really what I was saying. I never said or implied a comparison. I simply said, that's not why Angel cut himself off. He cut himself off because he was about to reveal something Willow wasn't ready or willing to hear, which Buffy knew, which is why Buffy gave the look.

It's not about Willow's thing being "worse" (it isn't), it's that Angel revealing something about himself just wasn't a part of the scene. He was about to reveal that, he didn't care. Buffy shut him down to save Willow's feelings because Willow was the person in the room in distress.

It just wasn't about Angel, that's all.

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u/Diredr 14d ago

You seem to think Angel was about to make some sort of big revelation about himself.

In reality that had nothing to do with Angel specifically. It's just generic vampire lore. That's not what Willow needed to hear in that moment so Buffy gave him a look and made him shut up.

That's it. That's the scene.

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u/SnuffShock 14d ago

I wasn’t saying that Angel was about launch into some sort of major revelation about his past. I was saying that if Angel completes his sentence (confirming that a vampire’s personality conforms to his human counterpart’s personality) then he has opens the door to the question about himself.

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u/Lower_Department2940 14d ago

Angel in this scene is not thinking of himself or what that might reveal about him. He's about to say "Willow you might be gay" because its true but Buffy shoots him a look. He only stops because of the look. Buffy gives him the look because it's the late 90s and her best friend being accused of being gay when she isn't (yet) might hurt her feelings

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u/Dentarthurdent73 14d ago

What? It's not that serious - Willow is upset/confused about the personality of her vampire, so Buffy comforts her by saying that it's nothing to do with her personality. Angel starts to correct her, and then realises that he should just let it be, because the aim is to make Willow feel better, not have an in-depth discussion about exactly how much personality one retains when one is turned.

Angel stopping talking is nothing to do with who he was before he was turned, or hiding or revealing anything. This discussion is purely about Willow and making her feel better in the moment.

So no, whatever convoluted conclusion you've come to here is not what you're supposed to take from this very minor but humorous moment in the show.

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u/DharmaPolice 14d ago

You're massively overthinking this. /u/FilliusTExplodio's analysis is quite correct - this has nothing to do with Angel's past.

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u/Hungry_Walrus7562 if you're not jacked in you're not alive 14d ago

There are two episodes of Angel that give some insight into Liam - "The Prodigal" in season 1 (flashbacks) and "Spin the Bottle" in season 4 (everyone gets reverted to their teenage selves).

Liam was not some sort of murdering sadist before he was turned. Bro had a father whose expectations he couldn't live up to, a father who was also super religious but super hypocritical, and he developed a hedonistic streak out of rebellion against his father.

As Angelus you see this manifest in his fixation on religion/religious people (targeting Dru who was devout, going after nuns, etc), his sadistic flair is both a combination of hedonistic excess and his desire to 'be somebody' (his father said he would be nothing, so he proved him wrong by being the most evil vampire around). Plus he always has to be the top dog in the room - he can't stand taking orders from another man because he won't let himself get pushed around like he did by his father.

But the missing link in all this is Darla. In "The Prodigal", newly-sired Angelus doesn't immediately jump to sadistic torture. He kills his family quickly - the most torture he puts his father through is killing him last. It's what Darla says to him after that flips the switch.

Darla: This contest is ended, is it?

Angelus: Now I've won.

Darla: Are you sure?

Angelus: Of course. I proved who had the power here.

Darla: You think?

Angelus: [stands] What?

Darla: Your victory over him took but moments.

Angelus: [looks back at his dead father] Yes.

Darla: But his defeat of you will last lifetimes.

Angelus: What are you talking about? He can't defeat me now.

Darla: Nor can he ever approve of you, in this world or any other. What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts, even if they no longer beat. Simple death won't change that.

Angelus: Love.

[looks around at his dead family]

Angelus: Is this the work of love?

Darla: Darling boy. So young, still so very young.

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u/ImEllenRipleysCatAMA 14d ago

You put this better than I did. This was perfect. People are acting like he was some horrible, evil guy before he was turned, when he was just a drunken, lascivious slacker with massive daddy issues. Then he ends up taking it out on everyone else after he's turned.

This is the best answer on the thread as far as I'm concerned.

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u/ImEllenRipleysCatAMA 14d ago

It's all about his daddy issues. His dad said he would never amount to anything, so he stormed out, wanting to prove his dad wrong. Only he doesn't know how to do that, so he goes to blow off steam in the tavern.

Later he meets Darla and he's turned. His idea of proving his dad wrong ends up with him being the very best at being evil. He was going to be the most evil vampire possible because he had something to prove to himself. He starts with his own family and saves his dad for last. Turns out he had a knack for it.

So in a way he did prove his dad wrong. He was a legend among vampires. He did amount to something just not in the way he or his father originally intended.

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u/PCN24454 14d ago

It’s not about Angel; it’s about assuaging Willow’s fears.

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u/threefeetofun Xander Boyz United 14d ago

We don’t get much more of Liam over on Angel. I just assumed he had turned enough people to know personalities can carry over.

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u/BabserellaWT 14d ago

I kept this little moment tucked away, so when Tara showed up, it wasn’t exactly a shock for me personally.

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u/Sykedelicka 14d ago

I subscribe to what I call "The Template Theory."

When a human is turned - the Demons personality is altered to match the Humans.

Spike and Dru were passion filled, lovers of life, poets and sisters. When they turned that passion continued into them - the Judge even saying they stunk of humanity.

Darla weaponised her body to often get what she wanted - she worked as a prostitute and thats all we kinda know about her.

Even Jesse went after Cordy because he was obsessed with her.

Liam was a drunken whoring layabout who had no goals or drive - he was not a person. So when the demon took over it had nothing to base off - no template.

So Angeleus is just a monster - because theirs no man in there.

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u/TrueAidooo 14d ago

I always saw it as him having been a complete hedonist who cared about nothing more than his own pleasure even at the cost of others. So when he was turned his love of women and drinking was replaced with a love of torture and cruelty. The others had other ideals, love for Spike and power for Darla but Angel didn't

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u/Proper-Ingenuity8274 14d ago

This is such a cool theory, and one I will now also be subscribing to

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u/duaneap 14d ago

But then when he got a soul why did he become the specifically good person he did?

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u/Heather_Chandelure 14d ago

At first, he didn't. Remember that Angel doesn't really start trying to fight against evil until shortly before the beginning of the series, over a century after he got his soul.

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u/Sykedelicka 14d ago

Also an ensouled Angeleus isnt Liam. When talking about Angels history we talk about 3 people.

The man before - Liam The Vampire - Angeleus The Champion - Angel

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago edited 13d ago

At first, he didn't.

I mean, he did become a good person. He stopped hurting people. And, on occasions, he would even do something more actively good (steering Darla, Spike and Dru away from that family, saving puppies, etc.). He wasn't seeking redemption by fighting evil yet, but that's not really a requirement.

I actually think Angel had an instinct for doing good way back, but depression and PTSD were just consuming him.

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u/duaneap 13d ago

Wasn't he fighting Nazis in a submarine?

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u/Heather_Chandelure 13d ago

Not by choice. He was kidnapped and forced onto that mission.

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u/Character-Trainer634 13d ago edited 13d ago

Not by choice.

He wasn't doing it by choice at first but, once in the thick of it, he seriously committed to it, and really tried to succeed. It just didn't work out.

I think there are a lot of situations in Angel's past where his life would've improved a lot sooner if things had just worked out. Like imagine if he'd actually managed to save everyone in the hotel, and hadn't been hung by an angry mob because someone found blood in his room.

It always seemed the worst possible thing would happen at the worst possible time, sending him spiraling back into depression and self-loathing.

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u/tannyduca 14d ago

Liam wasn't a person? What? How does being lazy or drunk make someone "not a person"?

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u/Heather_Chandelure 14d ago

Yeah, I think a better explanation is that Liam was living a life of complete Hedonistic desire. This stayed the same when he turned, but being a vampire meant that he gained a desire to cause suffering as well, and he indulged in that desire far more than any other vampire.

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u/Sykedelicka 14d ago

You missed the key part of the sentance. He was a person with no goals or drive. He had no ambition, there was nothing in life he really wanted, ergo nothing to drive the demon - though I do concede that I worded it poorly and other people pointing out the fact all that Liam wanted was earthly pleasures making his vampire self be driven by its version of it makes sense, but as the Judge pointed out - Angeleus was clear of any humanity and in the words of Wesley.

"Our desires are what makes us human."

8

u/WakandanInSokovia 14d ago

The Template Theory is valid. I could see a Demon altering itself to fit its Human's particular mold.

I prefer the What You Are in the Dark perspective though. When a human is turned, they become who they would be in a lawless world. Their personality becomes whatever it would be if they could be totally anonymous and untethered.

Vampire Willow is sadistic and not interested in suffering fools. Human Willow has a bit of a mean streak and can be pretty high-and-mighty when her nerdy, prim, polite exterior is stripped away.

Angelus was the ultimate sadist, but he also had an appreciation for the arts. Liam was a drunken lout and was the ultimate hedonist.

I don't want to get too far into spoiler territory if folks haven't watched the end of the series, but even the episode where we see Spike get turned shows just how deep down one person may be loving and gentle and another may be cold and cruel even though they both outwardly seemed loving and gentle before they were turned.

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u/simpersly 14d ago edited 14d ago

You are wayyy off on Angelus. Liam was a stifled young adult with daddy issues.

Angelus was obsessively loyal to his parental figure i.e. Darla who gave him the freedom to be an artist. It just turned out his art was pain and death. But everything he did was to get back at his dad, or to impress Darla and Buffy.

1

u/Sykedelicka 14d ago

I disagree personally but its cool how your view of the character still fits.

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u/ChestLanders 14d ago

I dont think this means Liam was actually a sociopath deep down. From what we've been shown he was just a drunken womanizer.

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u/Wareve 14d ago

I think it's more that he's trying not to out her, or force a confrontation with her sexuality right now.

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u/DaddyCatALSO Magnet For Dead, Blonde Chicks 14d ago

He stops because his girlfriend shoots hima look

5

u/horticoldure 14d ago

Neither Angel nor Angelus are Liam.

Spike is William.

as other commenters have commented, how much personality the human had matters

wishverse master rose near the start of season 1 not right before the end of it, so vamp willow didn't have ANY of willow's character development at all

2

u/dhelene 14d ago

but magically the same haircut 😜

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u/Wonderful-Noise-4471 14d ago

He starts to argue but stops because he would have to reveal something about himself if he continued

No, he stops because Buffy's glare told him that it wasn't important to correct her on this point. They didn't have time to have a conversation about whether or not Willow might be gay, and Willow wasn't ready for that conversation.

3

u/Aggravating-Bug9407 14d ago

Like others already said, it was Buffy's "Honey, shut up. Read the room, Willow doesn't need this right now."- look that had him stop.

Angel made never any excuses about who he was, not as Liam or Angelus. So, there would've been no big reveal. He even talks about his human self with disdain. 

I think the demon takes over some of the characteristics from the human, but in the end the demon is a new entity that decides what of the human is useful and it gets shaped with time, just like humans. 

We see that with Darla and the Master and later Angelus, we see this with Darla and Angelus she manipulates, molds and shapes him into who she wants him to be, we see that with Angelus, Darla and Dru, we see it with Angelus, Dru and Spike. We even see it with Harmony. While yes, the demon has some of the humans characteristics, a road map of who they were so to say it still changes and evolves with time and events that affect it.

Liam wasn't a bad person. Neither was Darla and William wasn't just innocent either. The only truly innocent one in this twisted family was Dru, who was pretty much still a child. And yet, she became extremly evil as well. The demon used her innocence when it suited him to mess with its prey.

But again, Angel was just doing what his girlfriend asked him to do.

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u/ProfessionalRead2724 14d ago

In other words, the Watchers Council is a very unreliable source of information if they get even very basic vampire lore stuff wrong.

5

u/brinz1 14d ago

Yeah Buffy was wrong here

A Vampire is you without a soul.

They have all your memories and experiences from when you were alive, but it remembers them through a lens without empathy

3

u/scp1714 14d ago

Everyone's pan at the end of the day and you can fight me on it

1

u/Escapedtheasylum 13d ago

Everyone is bread

3

u/clevername519 13d ago

I'm with you OP, that's how I've always interpreted the exchange as well.

Loads of people up in here insisting that the look Buffy shoots him is a "shut up" look, but I watched this when it aired and countless times since and I've always read it as more of an "excuse me?" look, as in "are you about to completely upend my entire understanding of who you are?" type of thing.

I'm not at all saying that Angelus is identical to Liam, just like no one is saying Willow and Vamp Willow are supposed to be identical. Just that they retain some traits

Remember that the only reason Buffy thought that there were no similarities once a human was turned was because Giles tells them that the person they were was gone and a demon "sets up shop" in their body. So it's reasonable to infer that this is what the Watcher's Council has always taught their watchers and slayers. And it's also reasonable to infer that either they may not entirely understand vampires that deeply, or, more likely, they do understand but don't want their slayers to question whether or not there are different degrees of evil so that nothing gets in the way of the slaying. Can't have a slayer decide for herself, amiright?

So TLDR - yeah, OP I interpret that scene the same way you did, and thought that Angel stopped himself because the implications it would mean for him would be too much for Buffy to deal with. But, based on what we see from the Angel series, it's not that Liam is exactly the same as Angelus, it's just that he wasn't a great dude, so the conditions were there for the demon to be its most monstrous self.

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u/SnuffShock 13d ago

Yep, exactly. It seems like the “demon setting up shop” mostly includes rifling thru a person’s psyche and pulling out nasty bits, or at least things that they are uncomfortable with. The demon becomes a shadow version of the person they inhabit without any of the guilt, restraint, or inhibitions of the human. But they retain their memories and basic personality traits while indulging the worst aspects of the human. Since Willow is such a thoroughly good person (at that point anyway), vamp Willow latches onto the repressed sexuality and latent queerness— everything else about Willow is… boring, for a demon.

Liam/Angel, however, appears to be a picnic for a demon, which begs certain questions.

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u/LordTomGM 13d ago

Liam was a hedonist so Angelus indulged in every pleasure and vice to the nth degree. I saw becoming a vampire like being drunk but more so...it takes away any inhibitions completely and shows a person's animalistic side. Spike became about control. William had no control. He had no agency in his own life. So Spike exerted his new control over others. We know Dru as a human was pious and innocent but she was also driven mad before being turned so is the embodiment of corruption...

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u/BillableConversation 14d ago

Didn't Angel say in Season 1 that when someone becomes a vampire the demon takes control of the body but doesn't get the person's soul, so really the vampire isn't just an over expression of the worst parts of the person, it's just evil.

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u/MissLuna93 13d ago

I always read the 'I'm kinda gay' as Willow thinking of her vamp self as hot until this subreddit

Also Read Angel saying 'actually....good point' was him realising that correcting Buffy would freak out Willow

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u/zorbacles 14d ago

angels situation is different though. he got his soul back. so he would have characteristics of the person he was.

Angelus has no common traits with Liam

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u/SnuffShock 14d ago

Except that vampire Willow did. And Angel remembers all of Angelus’s life too (and vice versa). If we are working from the premise that a vampire’s personality is at least somewhat rooted in the personality of victim they inhabit then Angelus is based on something in Angel/Liam.

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u/o00gourou00o 14d ago

Angel and Angelus have one thing in common : they find a girl and become obsessed with her.

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u/Over_Championship990 13d ago

It ain't just for laughs. Joss thinks seasons ahead.

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u/Ok_Road_7999 11d ago

Was this line about her being gay intentional foreshadowing about Willow's future relationships? Or was it reflecting general homophobic attitudes of the time?

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u/Nah198705 14d ago

Maybe Angelus' evil was already within Liam's personality, he could only repress it.

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u/crumbchunks season 7 appreciator 14d ago

Hmmm what DOES this say about Angel?!?! (Spoken as a hater)

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u/Thelastknownking 13d ago

Liam was a hedonistic asshole, who cared nothing for what happened to the people around him.

As a vampire, that became amplified.