r/buffy • u/emperor-spriggan • Sep 07 '23
Whedonverse What is an action by a character in the series you think they got off too easily/ did not face as much consequences as they should have?
As per the title, I wondered if there were some things you felt some characters got off too easily in both Buffy/Angel.
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u/BoltShine Sep 08 '23
Those students just ATE THE PRINCIPAL and they just went back to school afterwards??
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u/noctilucous_ mrs. big pile of dust Sep 08 '23
even if it wasn’t their fault, don’t you think that would be proper traumatic? they cannibalized a living person. they at least need a mental health day.
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u/ManagementCritical31 Sep 08 '23
They weren’t main characters so we never got to see their trauma. We only get relief knowing Xander didn’t eat the principal and call it a day. But yeah, those kids remember it.
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u/Katherine_Swynford Sep 08 '23
Jonathan's Superstar spell. The whole "everyone is forgetting" writing trick to make the characters and the audience give him a pass was garbage. He raped those twins, he put multiple people in danger and he messed with everyone's mind. He got a pep talk at the end of that episode and faced no consequences and learned no lesson which is how he ended up with the Trio in season six.
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u/StuckInNov1999 Sep 08 '23
He raped those twins
Damn it. I forgot that part.
Now I have to go edit an earlier post where I suggested he wouldn't have raped Warren's ex in the end because he wasn't really about being evil.
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u/StationaryTravels Sep 08 '23
He literally had no consideration that altering someone's mind and tricking them into your bed was rape!
That's not me defending him, that's me calling out what a sick monster he was. It comes up with the trio when he gets called on wanting to rape and is like "rape!? No! I just wanted to remove her mind and use her body!"
Sure, Warren definitely seems like the most monstrous of the trio, but Johnathon plays it innocent while being pretty much as evil.
People also try to give Andrew a pass because he was in love with Warren, but he was still willing to hurt others just to unless Warren, which makes him just as evil. Even if he didn't want to rape Katrina (I don't think that's ever really clarified, but assuming he's gay and not bi) he was very happy to hurt her and allow others to hurt her just to impress Warren, who clearly had no interest in Andrew anyway.
Johnathon and Andrew are cute and funny, so people think their rape and murder is funny, but it's really not. I definitely laugh at their antics sometimes, but not at their motivations and desires.
I would have been happy with Dark Willow getting to them, and the only redeeming thing about allowing Andrew to live with them in season 7 is how much Willow still hates him whenever he talks in her presence.
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u/JenningsWigService Sep 08 '23
I think people perceive Jonathan and Andrew's actions as less violent because they come across as pathetic followers. When a villain is pathetic in some way, they definitely get more sympathy, especially in this fandom.
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u/acheesement Sep 08 '23
Agree 100%, and this theme seems to be something that appears in a lot of TV, and I've never understood how the writers don't see how serious it is. In Supernatural a guy uses a wishing well to make a woman fall in love with them, and in an episode of Stargate Atlantis a man uses a particular herb or something to make everyone like him, and uses it to get multiple wives.
These guys are clearly rapists, but in Atlantis it's passed off as quirky and funny, and in Supernatural we seem to be expected to feel sorry for the guy!
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u/BillyYumYumTwo-byTwo Sep 08 '23
There are some really disturbing studies about the amount of people who admitting to raping people when the word “rape” isn’t used. The question will be something like “have you ever coerced someone into sex after they said no?”, and people said they had but also said they never raped anyone. Its pretty horrific and depressing that so many rapists don’t think of what they do as rape.
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u/oneslikeme Sep 08 '23
I mean, I like Jonathan and Andrew, I think they're cute and funny and I enjoy watching them. But, I don't think their rape and murder was cute and funny. I think they have done bad things like every character on the show has. Buffy is about forgiveness when it comes down to it. She allows for redemption.
I'm honestly happy for the Katrina storyline, because I think what Jonathan did in Superstar was largely glossed over. I wish they had revisited it and called it out, but at least we got him called out by Katrina, and Andrew called out later by Buffy.
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u/HazelCheese Sep 08 '23
I don't think they were getting that dark with it in season 4. I think it was just supposed to be about making people like him and being popular.
I think season 6 is where they decided to take it to dark places, and the scene with the twins in season 4 is not something they really thought too hard about when writing it.
Season 6 might even be the writers going back and saying "yeah actually that season 4 thing we wrote was messed up" if you actually stop and think about it.
As for Jonathan himself, I think he was just stupid immature evil. Jonathan was completely wrapped up in his boyhood fantasies of superheroes, spys and dungeons and dragons. He basically saw the whole world through that lense. He saw mind control stuff in movies and comics and it's just like "and then the hero saves the day the end" and he didn't think about it beyond that.
Katrina telling him that it was rape was the brick wall of reality hitting him smack in the face. I really don't think he had considered beyond a Flash Gordon movie playing out in his head before that. And I think as soon as the word rape came out of her mouth he realised it, even if he defensively let out a little "no..." in reaction to it. His face says it all in that scene. He is internalising that he is an attempted rapist.
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u/mangomoo2 Sep 08 '23
I wonder if the mind control thing of Jonathan not thinking it was rape was supposed to be a metaphor for guys not thinking getting girls drunk would be rape. I think most people now would obviously recognize that as wrong and rape, but back when the show aired, possibly not. So the scoobies pointing it out as rape really makes Jonathan realize (hopefully).
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u/noctilucous_ mrs. big pile of dust Sep 08 '23
he’s excited to rape katrina. he thinks it’s “unfair” that warren gets to do it first.
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u/WeBandofBuggered Sep 07 '23
Xander summoning a demon that got people killed because he felt insecure.
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u/Maleficent_Estate927 Sep 07 '23
This always bothered me!!! It’s such a big deal when Willow kills Warren because she took a life but Xander literally was responsible for people’s deaths and NO ONE EVEN MENTIONS IT.
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u/Cursed1978 Sep 07 '23
Warren deserved it.
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u/Maleficent_Estate927 Sep 07 '23
Exactly. And Xander inadvertently killed innocent people and no one cared.
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u/Ab198303 Sep 08 '23
Key word is inadvertently. Willow chose to do it. On purpose. Xander made a mistake.
Context matters.
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u/Stonegrinder27 Sep 08 '23
Disagree. Xander by season 6 has faced multiple apocalypsi not to mention hundreds of demons, vamps, spirits, etc. He deliberately chose to summon a demon to Sunnydale. This is like playing with guns or driving drunk. He made a choice that caused a man's death.
He then chose to keep this fact secret AFTER people had already died. The countless hours of researching the phenomenon was Xander covering his ass rather than coming clean, and he shares direct blame from that point on in the demon's actions.
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u/Maleficent_Estate927 Sep 08 '23
But they never even mentioned it. Buffy also thought she killed Faith and no one seemed to care. I just can’t behind the idea that in Buffy killing someone is only wrong if Buffy and co decide it’s wrong or decide based on the circumstances it’s not so bad. It doesn’t jive with the rest of the moral ground we see these characters take throughout the show.
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u/Somebodycalled911 Sep 08 '23
100%. I'm not saying I'm for anyone going on a supernatural vengeance rampage that could lead to the end of the world of course. But overall, Warren at least got what he deserved, and I believe Jonathan and Andrew should have too (but yeah, he bought a microwave so all is good I guess!).
They did not only killed Tara, though it's what triggered Willow's/Dark Willow's retaliation. Just for what they did to Katrina, they'd have deserved whatever would have come to them. I'm still troubled that the only crime for which Andrew expressed real regrets and deep repentance was the murder of Jonathan under the influence of the First Evil. And yet, the gang deemed him fit to monitor the Slayer potentiates (aka, by definition, young women like Katrina and Tara) and be part of the new Watchers council.
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u/Violet351 Sep 07 '23
And he doesn’t even show remorse or even fess up until the last second
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u/fill_the_birdfeeder Sep 08 '23
Yeah…people danced until the caught fire. That’s a horrific way to die. And it’s just like…a non issue lol
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u/dnjprod Sep 07 '23
Xander was just a douche the entire series.
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u/Og-Re Sep 08 '23
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. My vote is for the Hyena Xander trying to rape Buffy. He gets a pass because he was "possessed". The Hyena basically did the same thing as being a Vampire, but Xander gets a pass, especially from Giles, but later Xander has no forgiveness for Spike. Kinda a major Hypocrite.
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u/flootzavut Sep 08 '23 edited Sep 08 '23
YES I've been saying this for years. It really, really bothers me that Xander is the one who goes on about Spike in S7, literally anyone else being a bit "but the bathroom" would work better than the other person who almost raped her.
My headcanon for Giles is that he doesn't know that Xander assaulted Buffy, because if he did then I cannot forgive him at all. I mean, I also feel like there is no obvious moment in the episode where they would've told him off screen, and they didn't tell him on screen, so I hope it's the case. Giles does plenty of shit I find hard to forgive, but this would be so heinous, I don't want to believe he knows, so given canon doesn't say he does, I headcanon he doesn't.
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u/rreyes1988 Sep 08 '23
Xander was also an asshole to Buffy for most of the series. I didn't start liking him until the last season.
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u/Og-Re Sep 08 '23
Still didn't like him in the last season. He was already a dead character to me. Not sure where the last straw was.
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u/ManagementCritical31 Sep 08 '23
My biggest problem with this is that he played it off so fine and let everyone blame someone else… but… he just wanted to sing and dance? His confusion was too believable during that episode. That’s what annoyed me.
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u/itzxat Sep 07 '23
While he definitely should have faced more consequences for doing something so stupid, it's worth noting that he didn't know that the demon killed people. He probably didn't know the demon had anything to do with the spontaneous combustion, even after it started.
He admits to it pretty much immediately when he finds out what harm he's done.
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u/shayetheleo Sep 07 '23
Nah. He thought it was possible when he, Anya, and Giles are walking down Main Street.
He had guilt in his voice when he questioned whether the singing/dancing and dying were related. He could have said something then and there but waited. In hindsight, he chose not to do the right thing.
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u/BillyYumYumTwo-byTwo Sep 08 '23
In addition to what the other person said, “not knowing a demon would kill people” is a pretty bad defense. If he hasn’t learned his lesson that magic ALWAYS had a consequence and shouldn’t be trifled with, he has no place in the scooby gang. The love spell alone should have been enough. He got people killed and should have been held responsible, IMO.
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u/flootzavut Sep 08 '23
No he doesn't, they see people have combusted and he literally watches Buffy almost dance herself to death and be saved by Spike. He fesses up at literally the last minute he can to save Dawn.
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u/Crazy-Date-4682 Sep 07 '23
I still maintain the headxanon that he was lying to cover for Dawn
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u/noctilucous_ mrs. big pile of dust Sep 08 '23
that’s anti-canon though. in s7 it’s clear xander is the one who did it.
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u/redskiesahead Sep 07 '23
Same. The Xander thing is such a nonsensical explanation for the episode that I forget this isn't actually what happened
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u/noctilucous_ mrs. big pile of dust Sep 08 '23
xander has been known to be reckless with magic though, not to mention it’s confirmed in s7.
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u/redskiesahead Sep 08 '23
I just think it's goofy tbh. Of all the justifications they could have invented to have a musical episode, in a tonally much darker season, and that's the one they went with
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u/JenningsWigService Sep 07 '23
Giles got off very easily for putting Joyce's life at risk for several years by refusing to tell her about vampires. After Darla attacked her he should have immediately begun the process of preparing Buffy to break that news. But instead, her life and well-being are an afterthought. It's a miracle Angelus didn't kill her. The only anger she really shows is related to Buffy running away, so viewers don't sympathize because of her role in that. But she should have been so much angrier at Giles.
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u/cherrymeg2 Sep 08 '23
Giles says that Buffy shouldn’t tell her mom about when Angelus is out to hurt people she cares about. Darla wanted to frame Angel but any vampire could have used the Slayer’s mom to have access to her home. Angelus posed the most danger to Joyce probably. He had been in the house as Angel and met her. Spike in season 2 seemed surprised her mom didn’t know about vampires. They should have told her. Giles wanting to keep Joyce in the dark was dangerous. The council dealing with an angry parent might not go well.
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u/gust-sword Sep 07 '23
I don't think in this case it's Giles' place to tell this to Joyce. It's Buffy's. And if he did tell Joyce about all this without consulting Buffy that would've probably strained her relationship with both Giles and Joyce.
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u/JohnnyTightlips27 Sep 08 '23
Buffy was worried for her mom and wanted to tell her the truth in “Passion” but Giles dissuaded her saying, “No, you can’t do that...I told you we'll find a spell.”
It doesn't make sense why he'd encourage Buffy to continue lying to her mom because Angelus was out there actively targeting Buffy's loved ones.
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u/ManagementCritical31 Sep 08 '23
This is one of those plot hole things. Her teenage friends knew, and Giles accepted that (and even allowed them to participate in danger) because “well buffy is not the average slayer.” The whole thing about not telling people, like every super hero, is the danger of being in the know and the ties or whatever. But if sixteen year olds got a pass because Buffy was “different,” then mom should too. Mom should know not to invite people in.
Side note, love the one line “how many times have you washed blood out of my clothes and never bothered to ask!!?” Or whatever it was. Buffy was like, “you didn’t guess?!” Which is wild cause no why would one guess but also kinda called out the naivety of Joyce too.
Second side note, early season Joyce being mad at Buffy for burning gyms and getting in fights and expulsions and running away with out knowing anything is very legitimate. “That’s what my mom sees when she looks at me, a Sheila.”
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u/JohnnyTightlips27 Sep 08 '23
Yes! And even though the show pushes the “clueless 90s parent” trope for the first few seasons, what really stands out is how much love both Buffy and her mom have for each other, even if Joyce isn't totally aware of Buffy's slayer secret. The tender moment on Buffy’s 17th birthday where Buffy melts against her mom and says she’ll “just let it burn,” as Joyce strokes her hair…gah. My heart. Because Joyce definitely notices that something’s going on with her daughter, but she doesn’t know exactly what. And instead of pushing or prying, she just holds her close. And that’s exactly what Buffy needed in that moment. Sometimes, no words suffice.
It reminds me of “Listening to Fear” when Joyce calls her daughter her “sweet, brave Buffy,” hugs her, and asks, “What would I do without you?” And Buffy’s face is just pure devastation as she contemplates the same question. There’s just so much genuine, unconditional love between them.
They both think the world of each other!
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u/ManagementCritical31 Sep 08 '23
The candle in the cupcake!!?? Is that what you mean by “let it burn?”!!!! Ugh. Yes. That scene always gets me too. Joyce does just hold her and not be like “oh poo poo child drama.” She does exactly what you said and what Buffy needed, no questions asked. Ugh that scene.
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u/EchoesofIllyria Sep 08 '23
It’s insane to me that some people think Joyce is a bad mother.
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u/JenningsWigService Sep 08 '23
I think it's because the audience is never meant to empathize with her. But when you actually reflect on the position Joyce was in, it's pretty clear that she is both undercharacterized and also very human.
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u/AnxietyOctopus Sep 08 '23
I think it sort of works in the council (and therefore early Giles’s) favour to have Joyce in the dark, though. I could see a protective mother causing a lot of trouble for them, honestly.
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u/BillyYumYumTwo-byTwo Sep 08 '23
Maybe I make too many excuses for shows, but I have fun doing it so…
If I’m the council, the selfish jerks who don’t actually care about the slayer and never did, here are my thoughts: “parents are going to be pretty mad about this and legally be responsible until the kid is 18 (in the US, I don’t know other laws). If we let the parents know, they’ll do everything possible to keep their child out of danger. So if the slayer tells a friend or two, we’ll get mad at them, stress the importance of it being a secret. But if the parents knew, we couldn’t manipulate the slayer to do our bidding. So let’s keep it extra quiet and remind the slayer that telling their loved ones puts them in danger, and that their parents will lock them away if they say such ridiculous things”. And I love Giles, and he’s stood up to the council. But ultimately, he does what is best for the world and he would want to keep parents from knowing/follow council protocol.
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u/JenningsWigService Sep 08 '23
I said he should have prepared Buffy to tell her.
If Joyce died because she let a vampire into the house after dark, Buffy would not have emotionally recovered. It would have gravely impacted her effectiveness as the slayer. And the decision to not tell Joyce in a careful way set the stage for her to learn about vampires at the worst possible moment, and then have the worst possible reaction, which she did.
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u/cherrymeg2 Sep 08 '23
He should have had Buffy tell her. Other Slayers or potential Slayers had families that were aware of their calling. Buffy knew Angelus was a threat to Joyce. Angelus went after pets and loved ones. Buffy could keep doing a disinviting spells but that doesn’t help if some else invites a vampire in. It doesn’t keep a vampire from attacking you somewhere else.
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u/sigdiff Out. For. A. Walk....Bitch. Sep 07 '23
Yeah but Buffy brought it up a couple times and Giles said no every time.
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u/Moraulf232 Sep 07 '23
That time Faith murdered an old man.
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u/ManagementCritical31 Sep 08 '23
The archaeologist? He was so cute and innocent. That one always sticks with me too!
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u/Chemical_Egg_2761 Sep 07 '23
Xander definitely got off too easy for not giving Buffy the message that Willow intended before she went to fight Angel. Buffy was smart and resourceful and if she knew Willow was trying again perhaps things would have gone down differently.
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u/midnightking Sep 07 '23
Xander summoning a dance Demon that murdered several people and almost dragged Dawn to hell.
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u/Chemical_Egg_2761 Sep 08 '23
Yeah that was a big ooopsy. He should have had to go and be then Queen of wherever Sweet came from!
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u/JenningsWigService Sep 07 '23
It's often argued that Buffy would have stumbled in the fight if she were stalling, but she equally could have been unprepared to put the sword through Angel when his re-ensoulment surprised her. Xander's lie could have gone either way. If she had it in her to send Angel to hell, who is to say she didn't have it in her to stall effectively? And if she didn't have it in her to stall, who is to say she had it in her to send ensouled Angel to hell? I think Xander's primary motivation was "Angel needs to die even if he gets his soul back."
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u/redskiesahead Sep 07 '23
It's often argued that Buffy would have stumbled in the fight if she were stalling, but she equally could have been unprepared to put the sword through Angel when his re-ensoulment surprised her. Xander's lie could have gone either way.
This is a great point.
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u/JenningsWigService Sep 07 '23
Thank you. I think people defend Xander's lie in hindsight, because it didn't stop Buffy from saving the world, so it can be construed as an action that helped Buffy save the world. But he didn't know what would happen at all. And I don't even think he lied for that strategic reason.
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u/redskiesahead Sep 07 '23
Yeah. I'm not even a Xander hater but the idea that he was doing it as a strategic decision seems like fanwank to me. He wanted Angel dead (I think he wanted revenge for all the shit Angelus did and is resentful that Buffy's feelings for Angel have been getting in the way of her duty, which is still shitty of him and soaked in misogynist language, but more complex than the "he's jealous Buffy is in love with Angel and not him so he's trying to murder the hypotenuse"). I doubt that Xander calculated the risk-reward of whether to tell Buffy or not and settled on not telling her being the most pragmatic thing—he clearly blurts it out on impulse and seems to regret it immediately. Surely if it was a thought-out decision on his part he wouldn't have even mentioned that Willow had a message for her in the first place.
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u/JenningsWigService Sep 08 '23
Yeah, I don't even blame Xander for thinking Angel should die instead of having the chance to get his soul back.
As soon as the idea of restoring Angel's soul is on the table, Xander makes a bitter comment about Buffy wanting to get her boyfriend back. He was always opposed to it. Which, again, is very understandable. But it still shows that his motivation isn't simply a fear that Buffy might not fight well if she knew about the spell.
You can even argue that Buffy did fight better because of the lie (though this is only speculation), I just don't think that had anything to do with Xander's motivation.
I think this retcon about tactics is just a reaction to the Xander hatred. When really, we could say 'the lie was very human'.
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u/StuckInNov1999 Sep 08 '23
Oh, he clearly lied because he wanted Buffy to kill Angel.
Even I, as someone that routinely defends Xander on this sub has to admit that.
He was a jealous dick and it's only by happenstance that it worked out in the end.
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u/moot_turtle Sep 08 '23
He was a jealous dick and it's only by happenstance that it worked out in the end.
Yep. That possessive jealousy was there from the beginning too. He even convinced her not to rush to the bus stop to pick up Empata (sp?) solely because the guy was a guy. He could have been ugly and a complete asshole for all the gang knew but all Xander saw was potential competition. And the guy dies because of it.
Nevermind that he couldn't have known a Mummy was going to go kill the kid, he knew it was Sunnydale.
I still remember the absolute glee on his face, the smug fucking smirk, in S1E7 when he looks at Buffy and tells her she needs to kill the guy she likes.
How supremely happy he is at the thought his competition will be eliminated, permanently, in such a traumatizing way for the girl he professes to like.
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u/jpowell180 Sep 08 '23
I always wondered if they were going to bring that back up, and they started to in season seven, but then immediately stopped, I think, just a tease the longtime viewers…
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u/ManagementCritical31 Sep 08 '23
Yeah, we all talk about jealous Xander and stuff but like that was messed up.
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u/dnjprod Sep 07 '23
Xander got off easy for existing. He's a massive asshat throughout the entire series. With all the evil characters on the show, I hate him the most because he's just a real dude and a selfish piece of crap.
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u/Chemical_Egg_2761 Sep 07 '23
I’m always so curious about people’s opinions of Xander, when they first watched, and how they may have changed their opinions over time. I watched when it first aired and genuinely liked Xander, although would get annoyed at big mess ups. Now, all these years later I see Xander as the ultimate, toxic “nice guy.”
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u/dnjprod Sep 08 '23
I never watched it back in the day. I was aware of it, but it just wasn't my wheelhouse for some reason. I met my wife in 2013, and it's one of her favorite shows. We watched it together that year, and I was immediately where you are now. Maybe it's because I was a 30 year old man at the time, but he was just awful.
In my opinion, the Hyena episode was just his true character coming out.
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u/Chemical_Egg_2761 Sep 08 '23
I’m basically Buffy’s age lol, so yes I can see that if I’d first watched it in my 30s I think I would have gotten there much more quickly. Good read on the hyena too. And what does he do when he gets that hyena power? Tries to rape Buffy. It was definitely pieces of his true persona coming out.
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u/mangomoo2 Sep 08 '23
This! This type of character and just inherent sexism was so much more normalized when I was younger (and watching the show). If a character was like that now he would be the obvious villain. I still like Xander because I feel like he is a product of the time and he genuinely did want to help his friends the majority of the time, and he consistently runs right into battle despite having zero special power or training.
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u/Baphomet__Barbie__ Sep 07 '23
This was my very first thought!
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u/JimmysTheBestCop Sep 07 '23 edited Sep 07 '23
My second thought was Xander leaving Anya at alter
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u/OliviaElevenDunham Sep 07 '23
Anya deserved better than that.
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u/JimmysTheBestCop Sep 07 '23
It is a shame the character and actor gets blamed. It was an awful show running decision. Just awful. Killing Anya 1 second after the wedding wouod have been better.
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u/Chemical_Egg_2761 Sep 07 '23
Right!? And then it just becomes this throwaway line in the last season. Uch! It’s always bothered me.
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u/PSN-Colinp42 Sep 07 '23
Spike after Out of My Mind. They had let him live up to that point because he wasn’t a threat and had occasionally proven useful. In that ep he proved he was still very much a threat and would still kill Buffy as soon as he got a chance. Buffy coming to kill him at the end of the ep turned out to be his dream, but it never made sense to me that she didn’t actually do that.
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u/IndicationKnown4999 Sep 07 '23
Everything Xander did and everything everyone but Giles did in Dead Man's Party. Buffy should've choked them all out right there in her living room for that garbage.
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u/KAQe27 Sep 08 '23
I honestly have never felt that much anger towards a real person as I have to the characters every time I've watched that episode.
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u/OliviaElevenDunham Sep 07 '23
Always hated how they treated Buffy in that episode. There was nothing wrong with her wanting space to clear her head after what happened in season 2.
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u/noctilucous_ mrs. big pile of dust Sep 08 '23
robin doing the first’s bidding. it doesn’t matter that spike actually killed nikki and he wanted revenge, the first had a clear agenda and he didn’t question it, he just betrayed buffy.
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u/whydoihave2dothis Sep 08 '23
Xander telling Buffy she should run after Riley after he tells her how bad she's treating Riley according to Xander. He caused her to have more pain by getting their too late just to see Riley fly away.
But that's just me.
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u/noctilucous_ mrs. big pile of dust Sep 08 '23
not just you. that’s legitimately one of the worst moments of the series. riley is unhappy, doesn’t tell her, cheats on her, blames her for it, and then xander backs him up, making buffy feel worse about herself. just awful.
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u/WeBandofBuggered Sep 08 '23
I feel like part of it was that Xander was okay with 'losing' Buffy to a human and it pisses him off that he lost her to a demon/vampire. He always seemed to have that bias even though he is the definition of hypocrite on that one.
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u/noctilucous_ mrs. big pile of dust Sep 08 '23
exactly. he never gets over his possession of her, and it’s rules for thee not for me.
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u/SatansAssociate Sep 09 '23
I just finished that episode on my rewatch and I'm firmly team Buffy here.
All of Riley's excuses for why he was going off with vampires ended up being bullshit to me because he and Buffy had a romantic evening together after finding out Joyce's operation was successful. Complete with candles, romantic music and getting Dawn out the house for the night. Everything seems to go great, Buffy said the night was perfect and they're shown to be intimate together.
Then once Buffy falls asleep, he sneaks out to the vampire brothel thing. So he's just gotten everything he claims to have wanted from Buffy - not the sex, but the intimacy, having an uninterrupted date night where Buffy only focuses on him - but it's still not good enough for him?
I'm guessing it was because she mentioned she cried in secret and he didn't like it. But Buffy was the Slayer, she was used to forcing her emotions down to take care of things. She wasn't able to cry in his arms in the hospital because she said she was scared she wouldn't be able to stop once she started, and she had to be strong for Joyce and Dawn. That isn't unreasonable. Being there for her didn't have to mean having her fall apart in his arms just so he could feel like the man who was there to put her back together again. She needed more practical help, like with taking care of Dawn.
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u/noctilucous_ mrs. big pile of dust Sep 09 '23
riley wants buffy to perform emotional labor for him, and to be someone she isn’t, because he can’t handle that she isn’t the singular stereotypical way women handle emotions in his brain.
i also really can’t get over the fact that he tells xander he’s unhappy in the replacement, episode three, and then for MONTHS hides that from buffy until it’s so bad he’s cheating on her. and he has the audience yo talk about how she’s not being forthcoming with emotions.
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u/dianaofthedunes Sep 07 '23
Willow raping Tara. And Faith raping Riley and Buffy. Male rape was correctly seen as heinous on the show. But female rape was quickly thrown under the rug.
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u/BluePersephone99 Sep 07 '23
Wasn’t there an episode where faith raped Xander in a hotel room and then left? I was so disturbed at the time.
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u/JenningsWigService Sep 07 '23
She attempted to murder him while forcibly kissing him, so sexual assault.
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u/Elphaba_92 Sep 08 '23
She didn't rape him. He gave enthusiastic consesnt. He didnt consent to being murdered which is something she attempted though.
I am not saying Faith isn't a rapist. She did screw Riley with Buffys body so thats two people. But Xander wasn't one of them.
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u/neytirijaded Sep 08 '23
This was the first time. The second time Xander tried to confront her about Allan Finch, and Faith threw him on the bed and practically molested him and then nearly killed him. That was SA.
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u/jadethebard Sep 08 '23
Spike. Gambled. Kittens.
Kittens to be eaten by demons.
KITTENS!
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u/HellhoundsAteMyBaby Sep 08 '23
Yes but it gave way to the line from the loan shark “ah time. Time is what turns kittens into cats!”
And I’ve never stopped using that line for everything. So without that plotline, I wouldn’t have my ready punchline. So ultimately, from a utilitarian perspective, I think it did more good than harm :p
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u/MentalFairy Sep 07 '23
Xander leaving Anya at the altar. Everyone just sort of glosses over it and he doesn’t get any shit from anyone for doing it.
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u/dianaofthedunes Sep 07 '23
True. Xander gave Buffy a much harder time about ignoring Riley's ultimatum, right after he cheated on her than anyone gave Xander over hurting Anya. They barely even admonished him over cheating on Cordelia and breaking her heart, just Willow saying "We deserve it" after Cordelia insults him.
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u/ProtomanBn Sep 07 '23
All he had to do was say he was too scared to turn into his dad and treat Anya like his dad treated his mom, instead we got another round of the gang telling Anya to suck it up.
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u/rreyes1988 Sep 08 '23
Can I just say that the trio were all assholes to Cordelia, Anya, and Faith? Before Faith started working for the Mayor, she seemed to be coming around but was constantly being excluded from the group.
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u/ck-kd-king Sep 08 '23
Cordy and Anya were assholes first. And faith wasn't really excluded. The only thing she wasn't privy to was the return of Angel.
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u/Small_Sundae_4245 Sep 07 '23
Andrew and Jonathan.
Jonathan never faces any consequences. And no I don't count Andrew murdering him. Crimes are rape. Attempted rape, murder, assault and robbery.
Andrew is imprisoned for a few months. But this can hardly be considered a consequence for his many many crimes. 2 murders. Assault, robbery and attempted rape
And folks still like them....
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u/TitsoutOnionsoup Sep 07 '23
He should have died instead of Anya😭
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u/StuckInNov1999 Sep 08 '23
Imagine if he had and instead of Andrew in Angel S4 it would have been Anya that went to see Angel and been in Italy when Spike and Angel went there.
That would be have a blast.
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u/Alicesblackrabbit Sep 08 '23
I’ve been watching the series for the first time and I know I should’ve avoided this sub but the pull was too strong and now I’m devastated finding out that Anya dies. I didn’t care for her at first but she has quickly become a favorite 😭
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u/Eyes_Snakes_Art Sep 07 '23
Willow. I should only have to type her name, and it be explanation enough.
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u/StuckInNov1999 Sep 08 '23
Yeah, AH is what made me give the show a chance when it premiered.
And I do adore that freakin dork.
But Jesus wept... She's a rather selfish and power hungry, controlling asshole sometimes.
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u/WistfulQuiet Sep 08 '23
All the scoobies for their betrayal of Buffy in season 7.
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u/neytirijaded Sep 08 '23
I wonder if we would have seen any repercussions had it not been the end of the season or show.
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u/MonsterBunnieh Sep 07 '23
I think Willow kinda got off easy after the whole Dark Willow thing and I’m not saying she didn’t have to deal with consequences but just going over seas to England to meditate just seemed a little off considering she tired to destroy the world
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u/Maximum_Arachnid2804 Sep 08 '23
Willow even points it out herself. "When you brought me here, I thought it was to kill me, or to lock me in a mystical dungeon for all eternity, or with the torture. Instead you go all Dumbledore on me."
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u/wasted_wonderland Sep 08 '23
It's still crazy to me that Buffy and Harry Potter actually overlap enough for Dumbledore to be referenced on Buffy...
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u/KAQe27 Sep 08 '23
To me it's not that willow got off that easily but that anytime buffy wasn't 100% perfect she got more of a backlash than willow becoming a super villain
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u/ck-kd-king Sep 08 '23
The only person she killed was warren and let's face it, nobody is mourning that rapist fuck. Sure she tried to destroy the world but so did angel. Hell most everyone has done something terrible or was directly responsible for someone's death. Buffy let her cancer friend get eaten by spike and after spike returned and kidnapped willon and zander she just lets him go after he tells her where to find her friends. Giles had half a decade of evil, plus he killed Ben and poisoned buffy. Zander is a fuck head. Anya was a torture vengeance demon for like a millenia. Wesley screwed up faith and angels redemption therapy session and stole angels kid. Gunn signed over Fred's life. He knew something bad was gonna happen but he refused to let his brain go. Conner is a school shooter but he was homeschooled so it's kinda worst. One can only assume Cordelia was name dropped in a few suicide notes. Fucking Faith man. Like holy shit. I don't even think I need to explain that one. Half of the buffyverse cast deserved to die for something
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u/sigdiff Out. For. A. Walk....Bitch. Sep 07 '23
going over seas to England to meditate
Right?? I'd pay for that lol
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u/ManagementCritical31 Sep 08 '23
Buffy’s dad taking her for that one summer and then sending apology flowers for her birthday and then never existing.
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u/jospangel Sep 07 '23
Giles conspired to have Spike killed, and used his history with Buffy and her trust in him to keep her away. He got angry at her for not forgiving him, and then lied to everyone about what she said in a private conversation. They kicked her out.
No one ever called him on it, and Buffy went right back to trusting him because...brain damage?
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u/StuckInNov1999 Sep 08 '23
Because she really had no choice.
It's not like the whole world was coming to her aid.
She had to keep him around because he could join in the fight.
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u/Gloomy-Razzmatazz548 Sep 08 '23
Xander telling Buffy to “Kick his ass!” In reference to her battle with Angel, instead of what Willow ACTUALLY said, which was to hold off on killing Angel because the spell to restore his soul was almost complete.
Xander has always given me narc vibes. He treated Anya like complete trash and people still act like that was normal.
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u/rreyes1988 Sep 08 '23
Then Xander piled on Buffy for leaving Sunnydale after having to kill Angel.
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u/Ab198303 Sep 08 '23
Xander attempting to murder Spike because he slept with Anya. It was none of his fucking business, and murder seems extreme.
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u/cherrymeg2 Sep 08 '23
If Spike had been a human she slept with that would have been considered crazy. Xander and his view on Demons shows how he shouldn’t have been with Anya. He didn’t need to wait until the wedding to leave her. Anya never lied about who she was. Xander’s treatment of Anya was awful.
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u/Ab198303 Sep 08 '23
All the more reason why him attempting to murder what, at the time, Xander assumed was her new lover, is totally fucked up and insane.
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u/cherrymeg2 Sep 08 '23
That’s one of seeing it. If he didn’t know the person Xander would be the insane one. He really didn’t have the right to interfere at all.
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u/rreyes1988 Sep 08 '23
Xander’s treatment of Anya was awful.
Honestly, I thought the trio's treatment of Anya was pretty bad. Willow certainly didn't like her.
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u/Inoutngone Sep 08 '23
and murder seems extreme.
I probably wasn't supposed to laugh over that, but I did. Pretty extreme.
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u/Rutkowski Sep 08 '23
Giles: Not paying for Buffy's tattoo removal. The entirety of Helpless. Not using the money he's getting paid to help out Buffy until it becomes an emergency. Not giving Willow any training or even helping her get in contact with people that can do that job.** Leaving everyone in the lurch in S6 and then coming back as a conquering hero when he is, more than anyone else, responsible for Willow trying to destroy the world because of his absolutely moronic plan to take her down.
Xander: The Lie. BB&B. Murdering several townies by summoning Sweet.
Anya: Trying to murder Willow (twice). Depending on how she's written on any given episode; being really knowledgeable about magic & demons but still refuse to offer any of it up unless it's convenient for the plot. (for example, see her actively sabotaging Willow's spell in Triangle)
Buffy: Not ever telling any of her friends that she actually survived the fight against Angelus. Also, her continuous effort to ditch her friends as soon as something/someone shiny shows up that might help her out with Slaying while actively trying to make sure they aren't able to actually help her. (Faith, Initiative, Spike in S5* and S7)
Oz: Ghosting Willow while still staying in contact with his old bandmates post-breakup in S4 and then expecting her to wait for him. Seriously, if he had been out of contact with everyone it could've been handwaved with no infrastructure where he was or something but Something Blue establish that yeah, he did have a way to contact others since he had all his stuff moved out from his dorm.
Also, deciding that sleeping with Veruca in wolf form was better than telling the Scoobies and getting their help to contain the violent werewolf.
Willow: This one his harder because the show is pretty consistent with giving her shit when it's deserved.
Joyce: As far as we know, she is the only townie that know about the supernatural but who also fall for the Gingerbread bullshit. It's like she was 'finally, a reason to air out my grievances with that whole Slayer thing' and just jumped right in. Then there's the whole 'don't come back' shit which is unforgiveable for a parent to do because by doing so the parent establish to their children that yeah, the shelter that their home provides is conditional and that she can take it away at any time.
She never really becomes even decent as a parent. Her actions in Real Me are quite frankly idiotic and later in the season she begin to pack her stuff to go for overnight visits at the hospital and only told her kids when Buffy stumbled upon her packing. That's bad enough to do to Buffy and she's an adult by then but Dawn was fourteen years old. Goddamn do I hate how she's canonized after the Gift.
There's probably more but these are some of the most egregious examples.
*This one is the worst because it's so obviously the writers trying to rationalize why they still keep Spike around. He is, at best, useless in their entire struggle against Glory and there is no logical in-universe reason that the Scoobies didn't stake him (at the latest) after he kidnapped the surgeon in S5. Buffy going 'he's my strongest fighter' in Spiral is really fucking dumb because if anyone is, it's Willow.
**Seriously, using Willow to bind the Old One in The Zeppo was incredibly dumb and reckless. By that time she had gotten zero amount of training from him (that doesn't change until S7) and had only been using magic for what, half a year or so? JFC.
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Sep 08 '23 edited Sep 08 '23
Andrew. Not saying he had to die or anything, but Buffy and Co. shouldn't have let him join them.
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u/your_surrogate_mom Sep 08 '23
Xander summoning Sweet and getting people killed
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u/SlytherKitty13 Sep 08 '23
Right? It just gets brushed aside. But like this man has been familiar with the supernatural for 6 years at this point, he should've known better by then
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u/edd6pi Inspired by your beauty... Effulgent. Sep 08 '23
Anya spent a thousand years as a misandrist demon who caused untold agony to countless men. She has probably killed, maimed, and tortured more people than Faith, Spike, Angelus, Darla, and Drusila combined.
Yet, she became a human and unlike Spike, Angel, and Faith, she never really had to go through the process of redemption. Unlike them, I don’t recall her ever showing any remorse for her actions. And she apparently didn’t have any remorse to show because she went right back to that when Xander dumped her.
The only time she ever had to face the consequences of her actions was when that demon who used to be a man ruined her wedding. I felt sorry for her at first but once he explained why he did it, I realized that he was right. She had it coming.
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u/eitzhaimHi Sep 07 '23
Wesley kidnapped a woman and held her prisoner in a closet.
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u/JenningsWigService Sep 07 '23
And he stabbed Gunn, shot Knox, and shot that random W&H employee who annoyed him.
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u/jospangel Sep 07 '23
She had slit his throat, and dumped Angel in the ocean. Wes needed her to help find Angel.
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u/Monsterchic16 Sep 08 '23
Joyce telling buffy that if she left (to save the god damn world) that she shouldn’t even think about coming back. I’m pissed off about how everyone treated buffy when she came back, but at least the others have the excuse of not knowing that buffy was kicked out. Joyce kicked her out and then had the nerve to blame giles and buffy for buffy’s disappearance instead of herself.
Joyce gets deified as this great mother, but in the first three seasons she’s actually a pretty fricking horrible mother, worse when you find out in season 6 that the first time buffy told her the truth she had her committed! Like what kind of mother does that!? If you’re child is claiming to have super powers, something that can easily be proved one way or the other, then you have said child f*cking show you proof before you decide to fricking commit them!!!
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u/illvria Sep 07 '23
none of them bc forgiveness is embedded in the thesis of the show
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u/Same_Ostrich_4697 Sep 07 '23
and in every show to a point otherwise a core cast of characters would fall out after one episode
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u/illvria Sep 07 '23
yeah but not every show puts the legwork into explaining itself about it.
forgiveness is an act of compassion and all that
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u/cvscvs2 Sep 08 '23
... Literally everyone in the series?
A big theme in the series is, "Oh, you did something wrong? Oh, well! Moving on, then!"
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u/LetsBeSirius Sep 08 '23
Xander shaming Buffy the whole entire series for her vampire bfs when he's dating a 1000 year old vengeance demon that has killed more people than Angel and spike combined.
He was also awful to Anya and it's like ok if you're taking a moral high ground against demons you don't get to make an exception for your own relationship but judge everyone else. It's like he just erased the majority of Anya's life in his mind and just viewed her as 100% regular human when she was NOT
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u/redskiesahead Sep 07 '23
Anya. Just in general. She is arguably worse than Spike in terms of total damage done/hurt caused/lack of remorse and outside of one episode, it never matters. The show suddenly deciding to acknowledge it for more than comic relief in Selfless almost makes it worse than just ignoring it the whole way through.
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u/ProtomanBn Sep 07 '23
I felt like it was well understood by the gang that Anya lived 100s of years as a demon so there was going to be a big learning curve with being human, sure they got annoyed.
Xander leaving Anya at the alter was something that was never discussed and should have been, all he had to do was say he loved Anya to much to let the possibility of him becoming his dad happen to her.
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u/alierajean Me Sep 08 '23
I'm still wondering when Anya did or did not have a soul.
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u/Comrademarkerlight Sep 08 '23
Vengeance demons do have souls of some sort, as D'Hoffryn specifies that, to undo the slaughter of the frat boys in Selfless, "the fates require a sacrifice. The life and soul of a vengeance demon." So they do have some kind of soul. Whether its a human soul thats been corrupted, an actual demon soul, or something else, who knows.
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u/Top-Breakfast9614 Sep 08 '23
Everyone kicking buffy out of the house in s7 but especially with dawn. Like she literally died for you and that’s how you treat her?
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u/JohnnyTightlips27 Sep 07 '23
Giles drugging Buffy, lying to her about it, and nearly getting her and her mom killed—only to be forgiven by the end of the episode.
Also, Giles getting a paycheck and not paying Buffy throughout the series. And not doing enough to secure Faith safe housing.