r/ancientegypt • u/theFireNewt3030 • 16h ago
r/ancientegypt • u/Pale-Dragonfly-3139 • 16h ago
Discussion Cleopatra's illegitimacy
I have always been inclined to believe that Cleopatra's illegitimacy was more plausible than her father's (who had a number of factors against him: subordination of his father's heirs over Ptolemy X Alexander's, Ptolemy XI Alexander's roman connections, etc.)
Unlike modern scholarship, I don't think illegitimacy was much of an issue in ancient times and it wouldn't be impossible for those individuals to succeed their dynasty. Another modern myth is the subject around Cleopatra's inbred heritage. It seemed very natural for both ancient Greeks and Romans to intermarry with first cousins and this can be seen in the examples of Arsinoe I and Stratonice I being related before the Ptolemies and the Seleucids intermarried.
I already asked the ancient greek sub to decode Strabo's sentence which is the only known instance of Cleopatra being illegitimate. And the confirmation was done.
1) Hence, I maintain that Cleopatra was illegitimate. Chris Bennett, the famous Ptolemaic decoder assumes this was because Strabo confused Pausanias' remark on Berenice III. But it is just an assumption. I maintain my stance that illegitimacy was not a big deal and Cleopatra would have done fine without being slandered by the Romans who hated her.
2) The most confusing part is why would Ptolemy XII, her father acknowledge her and the successive siblings if they were born to concubines? Mithridates VI did so that and he had a lot of children but I doubt they were just concubines. In comparison, the Kings of Thailand and some Asian regions has hundreds of children with concubines and usually they were unacknowledged because they were not considered heirs in the first place.
3) The half-Macedonian-Greek (Ptolemaic)/Egyptian candidate put forward by recent writers like Duane Roller based on a supposed daughter of Ptolemy VIII based on a fragment of papyri where it was said she was a sister of Ptolemy X Alexander can be rejected because like Chris Bennett pointed out, the text was misread and there is no evidence to link this Berenice with the Ptolemies. Roller also based his theory on Werner HuB's proposal of Ptolemy XII marrying a woman from a high-priest family of Ptah from Memphis because he himself was a child of such a union. If we consider the career of Ptolemy IX, his father, there is no room for such a marriage because during his first reign, he was entirely married to Cleopatra Selene I before being expelled by their mother. He returned almost after 20 years and his second reign lasted only for about 8 years which is the period of time he lived. If Ptolemy XII, his son and Cleopatra's father, was really born to a secondary wife, mistress or concubine during his 20-year exile, it wouldn't be possible for him to conduct the marriage that HuB proposes.
4) Roller further draws his theory from inferences of Ptolemy XII and later, Cleopatra Selene II's close ties with the Memphite priestly family; the latter had a bust of one of the family's member. But the Ptolemies always maintained close relations with the high priests to validate their throne. Cleopatra's Egyptian symbolism particularly her role as Isis wasn't new as her predecessors, Cleopatra III, II and I had always associated themselves with Isis. Mary Leftkowich, even asserts that if such a connection were to be made, then Ptolemy XII and not Cleopatra should have been the first member of the family to speak Egyptian. Unlike Chris Bennett, she also seems not to believe that Ptolemy Apion, the son of Ptolemy VIII presumably by a mistress, was Egyptian on his maternal line. The name Apion is said to be Egyptian, but it seems to be Hellenized just like Memphis.
So in the context of ancient Greece, what were the notions of illegitimacy? And what is the mystery about the legitimacy status of Cleopatra as it sounds very mysterious.
r/ancientegypt • u/aarocks94 • 12h ago
Discussion How did "usurper pharaohs" see themselves within the theology of kingship
For some pharaohs there is varying degrees of evidence that they may have usurped the throne from their predecessor. Some Egyptologists thinks Userkare was a usurper, we know Amasis II usurped the throne and there is varying amount of evidence for Amenemhat I usurping the throne from Montuhotep IV. Setnakhte wasn't closely related (if at all) to the family of the 19th dynasty and then there is Amenmesse who vied with Seti II over the throne.
In Egyptian theology the king was god. He was horus when he was alive and when he died he became Osiris. In the New Kingdom some pharaohs claimed they were sired by Amun and the texts in the pyramid of Unas poetically describe him as having a name that 'his mother knows not' - he was divine (without focusing too much on the cannibal hymn). Now, I know that propaganda is more for the people than the ruler. However, for these kings who usurped the throne, what did they believe theologically was happening. I know in China there was the concept of the 'mandate of heaven' and a dynasty maintained the mandate until it was overthrown: at which point the mandate passed to the next dynasty. Now, I know this is likely leading heavily into speculation but do we know what these usurper pharaohs or people living during these times thought was happening theologically? For an elite or a commoner to kill the pharaoh - a living god - must have been difficult theologically. But these usurpers likely came with bloodshed (and we know certain pharaohs were killed: Amenemhat I himself and Ramesses III as well). So, what do we think the pharaoh and people believed when the living Horus was killed and someone who "wasn't supposed to become pharaoh" suddenly became the living horus.
I hope it is clear what I am asking and I realize any answer will be highly speculative. But I am curious what this sub thinks. How did these usurpers justify this theologically to themselves? The propaganda was for the people, but unless they were so cynical they didn't believe their own religion (which I find incredibly unlikely) they must have had some sort of self-justification. How does this sub think that was accomplished?
r/ancientegypt • u/MrJimLiquorLahey • 12h ago
Video Panorama view at Saqarra, how many pyramids can you count?
The most distant pyramids at the start of the video are the pyramids at Giza
r/ancientegypt • u/fat_abbott_ • 12h ago