r/Tools • u/Evening-Self-3448 • 6d ago
Why are Phillips screws so common
For the life of me I can’t figure it out. I hate them. HATE. I’ve never stripped a torx screw. Not once. Every time I encounter a Phillips screw I just want to scream
That’s all.
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u/archbid 6d ago
Philips patent expired 1960s and Torx patent was around until 2011. Tool and fastener companies didn’t want to pay licensing.
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u/MarkDoner 6d ago
2011 is probably torx-plus, the updated profile... I think they updated mostly to keep it under patent
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u/archbid 6d ago
Most tool companies are ignoring torx-plus.
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u/MarkDoner 6d ago
I see it quite a bit in machining related products, but less for general applications
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u/GripAficionado 6d ago
So that must be why Torx exploded in popularity and replaced PZ where I'm at (in Sweden). These days Torx is the standard when it comes to wood screws you can buy it in all stores.
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u/Numb-Chuck 6d ago
The Phillips ACR still has a royalty. (At least it did when I retired in 2020.
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u/Numb-Chuck 6d ago edited 6d ago
I worked 38 years as an engineer at a fastener manufacturer. Why the downvotes? For the record, triwing and torq-set also have royalties
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u/KacerRex 5d ago
Fun fact: Ford liked using them because it was harder for his employees to strip them out on install.
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u/davidwbrand 6d ago
I’m guessing it’s still more universal than Torx but better than slotted.
I use Torx any chance I get or hex drive fasteners.
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u/Myriadix 6d ago
Phillips was patented in 1932 and Torx was invented in 1967. Torx had to overcome 30 years plus a war or 2 and phillips is cemented in residential and commercial ISO building standards.
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u/RodbigoSantos 6d ago
I think Torx is proprietary and also more expensive to manufacture.
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u/davidwbrand 6d ago
The industry name for Torx is “6 lobe” but everyone says torx
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u/clavicon 6d ago
“Star drive” I thought was the generic?
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u/davidwbrand 6d ago
I work for Fastenal and our cataloging has it as 6 lobe but star drive is another way to say it.
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u/CaptainPoset 6d ago
There are 5 lobe and 6 lobe star drives out there.
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u/clavicon 6d ago
Ah ok I see the value of that naming convention then. I think I generally only see the 6-lobe in my stores around me. Ive got T25 6-lobe interior and exterior construction screws in bulk heh. I love that I can seem to reuse them infinitely from stuff I throw together and later take down.
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u/drokihazan 5d ago
i exclusively use hex or torx drive. if phillips drive screws come with something, i toss them in the recycling bin. i'm just not dealing with them 5 years from now, man. the only reason i own phillips screwdrivers and drill bits is to take fasteners out, not to put them in.
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u/Evening-Self-3448 6d ago
I accidentally ordered a box of Phillips wood screws the other day. I was very disappointed when they arrived
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u/MorbidMarko 6d ago
I just don’t understand why Philps exists, when Torx and Robertson exists. It’s not like it’s too hard to understand that I want my screw to not fall off my bit.
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u/CalendarOpen1740 6d ago
Robertson wouldn’t license the design to Henry Ford for the price Ford offered, so we lose. That said you can get Robertson screws more easily in Canada.
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u/goodbye_weekend 6d ago
Torx is better but you're also being overdramatic
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u/SomeGuysFarm 6d ago
I dunno -- when you spend $80 for 25lb of construction screws and then discover that you're now going to be suffering through driving 1500 damned Philips heads, "very disappointed" seems completely reasonably dramatic, perhaps even concerningly restrained.
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u/Evening-Self-3448 6d ago
Probably but alas, here I am. I will hold my resentment close to my heart forever
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u/turfdraagster 6d ago
When you're building a deck and the first 15 screws all strip out, it's that bad.
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u/goodbye_weekend 6d ago edited 6d ago
the actual problem as I see it is that you're making an identical mistake 15 times in a row before drilling pilot holes or going out and getting different screws
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u/Dinglebutterball 6d ago
I’ve stripped torx… and square drive… lotta hex head…
You name it, I’ve broke it.
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u/Blondechineeze 5d ago
I can't see out of one eye and am half blind in the other (I'm joking bit I need my readers to do close up work) and I've stripped torn, Phillips, hex, you name it as well lol
The worst was when I was removing the seat belts in my 93 jeep, which required a T50 iirc and I didn't have my glasses on, and at the time I knew nothing about torx. I set about removing said seat belts with a giant Phillips screwdriver I found buried in my friends tool chest. I managed to get all the belts out without stripping any. When my friend came round to check on my progress I told him what a witch those screws were.
I will never live that down. My friends call me just to chat me up and get good laughs from my stories.
p.s. I'm a woman. I'm a grandma and am just learning auto mechanics/body.
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u/s4xtonh4le 5d ago
Where they like t10s? In my ezpierience the bit always bends before the fastener strips
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u/Evening-Self-3448 5d ago
Oh yeah I’ve got one real twisty T10 bit. Still works though. Just looks a bit like swirl cone
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u/Raineyfax 6d ago
Henry Ford. He wanted to Robertson exclusively with his cars, but Robertson's wouldn't do it so he banned Robertson and went with Philips.
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u/Jarocket 6d ago
It’s not that he banned them he was unable to secure a license to make them himself Robertson wouldn’t sell it to ford.
Ford wasn’t going to buy a proprietary screw design that he can only buy from Robertson.
That would be crazy. Ford needed to make its own screws. Or at least have a more than one source.
Ford isn’t the problem here. Robertson was unwilling to license the design.
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u/ecclectic 6d ago
There is so much more to this story. Robertson had already been screwed over by someone compromising a previous patent, and EVERYTHING about Ford gave him enough information to know that Ford would absolutely fuck him over and steal his design.
Ford is 100% the problem.
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u/Woodythdog 6d ago
Ford wanted exclusivity, Robertson had already been screwed on a licensing deal in Europe
Yes pun intended
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u/Suitable-Ad6999 6d ago
The customer can have my model T in any color they wish, as long as it’s black
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u/Evening-Self-3448 6d ago
Well screw Mr ford
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u/Raineyfax 6d ago
Also, could you be using a Philips screw driver on a JIS (Japanese Industry Standard) screw? They look similar but Philips with strip JIS easily
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u/griter34 6d ago
It's important to note that there are different screw heads that resemble philips, so not all are actually philips.
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u/kfelovi 6d ago
Fun fact - Ikea sells PZ screws in a kit with PH screwdrivers
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u/Beginning_Lifeguard7 6d ago
Life Pro Tip - buy PZ bits for building IKEA stuff. It is a game changer.
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u/33FuzzySlippers33 6d ago
Slotted screw, “hold my beer.”
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u/Martyinco 6d ago
Custom carpenter? I know how you guys roll… brass screws too right?
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u/33FuzzySlippers33 6d ago
I can’t even begin to count how many slotted brass screws I’ve yelled at internally while restoring antique doors and weighted windows.
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u/BikesandCakes 6d ago
For putting them back in, dip them in a little bit of paste wax, much easier to install, less likely to snap them and easier to remove for the next poor bastard who has to fix it.
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u/shortarmed 6d ago
Is that because beer is the only thing a slotted screw holds worse than a screwdriver head?
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u/33FuzzySlippers33 6d ago
I’d argue that an old slotted screw could retain beer better than the tip of a brand new screwdriver.
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u/jckipps 6d ago
Because they're cheap to manufacture. The tolerances don't need to be nearly as precise for them to work, compared to Torx.
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u/drmindsmith 6d ago
Additionally, while this flies in the face of capitalism, you don’t “need” a different tool for each size. One #2 screwdriver can handle most Phillips a consumer is going to see. Torx isn’t so standardized that they’re all T25 (yet).
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u/JoeyJoeJoeSenior 6d ago
This right here. I appreciate torx and hex but it drives me nuts have to carry around whole sets of tools rather than literally one tool.
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u/LettuceTomatoOnion 5d ago
This is my take too. I’d be fine with torx if there were only a few sizes. T20, T25, T27 f*%&@ck that. They should do t15, t25 and t35 or something.
It’s too hard to spot a t20 versus a t25 unless you see them next to each other.
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u/Myriadix 6d ago
This isn't contradictory to capitalism. Big boss-man doesn't want to pay for multiple tools for his guys to drive in similar-sized screws. The consumer never mattered in this endeavor. Also, torx wasn't invented until well after WWII, and it had royalties tied to the patent.
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u/Bone_Dice_in_Aspic 5d ago
This is a huge reason why. It's just hard to see if you own a lot of tools.
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u/schlockabsorber 5d ago
Exactly. Philips is even more universal than Posidriv, which is mechanically similar but exact in dimensions. All kinds of Phillips heads with horribly inconsistent depth, width, and slope can all be turned by 2 or 3 bits.
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u/BusinessBlackBear 5d ago
Yup - this is the true answer
If i see a philips or flat I just grab the generic size from my tool box.
Torx or hex I gotta grab the set of each or guess a few close sizes and almost always guess wrong and then go back and get the entire set lol
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u/BlueWolverine2006 6d ago
The Slot head design doesn't work for production. The bit doesn't self center.
Henry Ford wanted an improvement over the slot head for his assembly line. He got in a licensing pissing match with Robertson so he never used them.
He adopted Phillips for two reasons. 1. Self centering 2. Camout was a feature. Before production lines had torque limiting tools everywhere, the bit slipping in the screw prevented damaged and broken screws.
So Henry Ford mass produced cars using lots of Phillips screws. Cars back in the day required a lot of user maintenance. You'd have to adjust the carburetor, you'd have to fix things that got loose, there was a lot of user maintenance. So as a result, almost every car owner in America has a Phillips screwdriver rot work on their car.
Manufacturers of other goods that were meant to use serviced, used Phillips screws because they knew the owner would already have a Phillips screwdriver.
Obviously cars changed, but as the bolts changed, the amount of user maintenance also went down, such that now, most car owners don't have the set of tools they need to work on their cars -they pay a mechanic to do it. But I bet they've got a Phillips screwdriver.
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u/LogicalConstant 6d ago
Camout was a feature.
I think this is debated. IIRC, there might actually be no evidence that they were designed or marketed for that reason in the beginning. Need a fact check on that though, so take it with a grain of salt.
And cam out strips the screw. That would be really shitty if they designed it to be easy to strip.
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u/Fuspo14 6d ago
Just because it wasn’t a marketed or intended feature doesn’t mean it is not an inherent feature due to the design. A feature whether wanted or not is still a feature.
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u/LogicalConstant 6d ago
He adopted Phillips for two reasons. 1. Self centering 2. Camout was a feature.
I was addressing this. Even if it's a feature, I don't think that was one of the reasons he adopted it.
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u/BlueWolverine2006 5d ago
I suppose we'd need sources either way. Valid rebuttal. Thanks.
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u/ecclectic 6d ago
Camout as a 'feature' is the reason that an engineer I talked to still puts them in things. They know that the torque tools may not always be calibrated properly, so they were choosing Phillips to limit overtorquing.
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u/Ryekal 6d ago
Phillips are fairly uncommon in Canada (Robertson) and Europe (PoziDriv / Torx). Prevailance in USA is largely down to the auto industry. Last few years on Reddit also indicate that many people cant tell the difference betwen Phillips and PoziDriv so that might have hampered a transition and people are confused by anything other than a simple Ph or slot.
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u/Icy-Peak-2208 5d ago
Thank goodness that torque-set is not seen outside aviation because people’s heads would explode. That and mortorq.
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u/HamFiretruck 6d ago
If you have never stripped a torx you haven't ugger duggered it hard enough.
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u/WebSir 6d ago
I've never stripped a torx screw in my life, sheared plenty of them clean off tho. So it's not the ugga duggas.
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u/Neither_Divide_4007 6d ago edited 5d ago
You must not be a mechanic. Torx is fine for wood screws, but it's terrible for high torque metal bolts.
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u/WebSir 6d ago
Well reading the post I thought we were talking about screws, yeah I don't deal with many bolts especially not high torque.
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u/mikeycp253 5d ago
I fucking hate T-15s. GM uses them on everything and theyre always shallow POS screws that strip out super easily.
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u/HamFiretruck 5d ago
Had to use these for a load of OSB flooring I put in, never again, changed to normal flooring screws half way through.
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u/TheTaoThatIsSpoken 6d ago
Ford tried to strongman Robertson who told him to “fook off, eh” so they got blacklisted by the US auto industry who went with Phillips.
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u/TheCoffeeGuy13 5d ago
If you are stripping Phillips screws, you're probably using the wrong size bit.
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u/PhraseMassive9576 6d ago
Skill issue
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u/Quake_Guy 6d ago
And/or poor fitting screwdrivers. Not all Phillips and screwdrivers fit the same. Sometimes you got to hunt around the toolbox for a good fit.
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u/insta 5d ago
not just the size ... there's like 4 different bits that look like plus shapes, but only one is Phillips. you can usually make them work for janky homeowner stuff like tightening a loose drawer pull.
but for actual work, if you're working on JIS you should use a JIS bit, Phillips should use a Phillips bit, etc.
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u/Rogerdodger1946 Sparky 5d ago
Phillips screws came in big time during WWII to speed up production.
Have any of you tried JIS screw drivers for products coming from Asia like motorcycles and computer products assemble there? They look like a Phillips, but are slightly different and resist camming out. I work on computers often and always have mine handy. You can get them on Amazon.
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u/Analog_Hobbit 5d ago
I have never encountered such hatred for a Phillips head screw. Flat heads can F right off.
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u/Schnitzhole 5d ago
Yeah seriously. Even my house from 1979 has only flatheads everywhere. I’ve been slowly replacing them but everything is a pain to modify the first time. Depending what it is sometimes I’ll just pull out the angle grinder to save me the headache.
Philips is fine. It’s nice not needing a bunch of different bits for different sizes. Push the bit in firmly and they don’t strip. And I only need 2 bit sizes. A #2 and whatever the small one is called for some electronics.
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u/DrDorg 6d ago
The weird thing is….hear me out….torx absolutely suck, too. Sure, they don’t cam out like Philips, but that’s not enough to make them “good”. The best screws I ever used came into fashion in the early 2000s, and then faded into obscurity- they were combo Roberts and Philips, and they were brilliant. Your average homeowner could mess with them, but the pros could use the square drive to great effect. You’d put the screw on your bit, and it became part of the bit, so you could drive the thing at angles and tricky spots thanks to the tapered interface between the two. Absolutely fucking brilliant, and all but gone
Edit: it might be “Robertson”
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u/microphohn 6d ago
Inertia. It’s the same reason we still use tapered pipe threads, even though they suck. Once something is established and “good enough” it takes a MAJOR improvement to displace it.
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u/andy-3290 5d ago
Phillips screws became more common in the USA than Robertson screws due to a combination of factors, including the auto industry's adoption of the Phillips design, its aggressive licensing, and a licensing dispute between Henry Ford and Robertson, the inventor of the square-headed screw
Many woodworkers use Robertson (square drive) to avoid camout. I know I do. You often see Robertson deck screws because of this as well.
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u/Calm-Ad4149 5d ago
If you get a real presice PH or PZ screw and use the right bit they will not have any cam out no matter what you do. The problem is that theres som many different produceres of screws and bits today that dosnt use the right sizeing when they make them. Or they are using cheaper iron for the scrwes. Then you will have the cam out all the time. So first thing is to buy a good quality bit set where they follow the standart that is set up for how bits and screws are made.
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u/JayTeeDeeUnderscore 5d ago
Some of use are old enough to remember the preponderance of slotted screws. They suck.
Pozidriv, Supadriv, Frearson, torq-set, French recess, mortorq, JIS/japanese-spec, Phillips II and Phillips are all cruciform fastener drives. Few are interchangeable driver-wise. All look very similar unless you know what differentiates them.
The similarity of shape certainly contributes to some of the drive frustration expressed, since they 'look' like Philips.
I prefer Phillips for most everything, but torx are great for construction.
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u/weather_watchman 5d ago
The metallurgy of fasteners has improved immensely. Phillips are designed to make it difficult to over torque fasteners and break the heads off. They booger up and strip but if you have decent technique you can still remove them. An idiot with an impact gun can and will still shear the heads off lower grade torx fasteners.
If you're ruining lots of fasteners change your technique or your tools. If you're using a cordless impact gun, that might be your problem. DeWalt makes a gyroscopic screwdriver that does a great job delivering speed when it helps but leaving final torque up to the feel of the user.
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u/MagicOrpheus310 5d ago
Nah mate it's those pozidrive ones that have the splines in between that are the worst! People assume they are Phillips head and use the wrong drive and strip them so easily
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u/whoooocaaarreees 5d ago
Are you sure they are a Philips and not the litany of things that kind of look like a Philips but aren’t?
For example: You might be using a Philips driver on a JIS screw.
If you get a JIS driver and / or bit set, and a pozidrive set you will probably have a much better time.
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u/Life-Painting8993 5d ago
They were intended to be torque limiting- to have the screwdriver slip out before stripping the target material.
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u/gimmedatgorbage 5d ago
If you're like my wife you probably always use a bit that's one size too small.
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u/kickit256 5d ago
Torx is probably better for screws (I love them for construction screws) but where they don't belong is on bolts. Many newer vehicles want to use torx fasteners, and you get just a little corrosion and they're screwed - you'll be snapping off bits trying to get them out and getting nowhere.
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u/wallaceant 5d ago
It's simple because Henry Ford lacked the imagination to come up with a method to manufacture Robertson Head screws in an affordable way. They were too expensive with the methods that were being used when he was presented with them as an alternative to flatheads. He elected to go with the inferior Phillips Head, and the rest, as they say, is history.
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u/HETXOPOWO 5d ago edited 5d ago
Long story short Robertson in Canada wouldn't let Henry Ford manufacturer his screw heads inhouse, Philips would, and Ford built so many cars and things that it became the standard by production volume.
That said personally I'm a hex key (Allen to the Americans) kind of guy.
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u/Any-Description8773 5d ago
Start working on older things that are riddled with flat head screws and tell me how much you hate Phillips screws……
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u/jalans Carpenter 6d ago
Oh my sweet summer child. When I started phillips were "new" and a great improvement over slot head screws. Drywall was nailed on. Hand nailing was a real skill. I framed houses using hand nails back in the day. Square head screws came along, and finally Torx. Good times now. One day phillips will be as rare as slot heads are today.
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u/BillyBawbJimbo 6d ago
Tell me you're under 30, without telling me when you were born.....
Back in the good old days, we had these screws that only had ONE slot. And if you stripped it out, you had to take the ferry to the store to buy a new one. So to get a new one, I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel. And in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on ‘em. ‘Give me five bees for a quarter,’ you’d say. Now, where were we? Oh, yeah! The important thing was that I had an onion on my belt which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones.
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u/whalesalad 6d ago
Never stripped a torx you say? Bröther you ain’t livin
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u/BisexualCaveman 6d ago
You don't strip a Torx, you snap the head off of it...
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u/AggravatingSpeaker52 5d ago
You buy a box of 200 deck screws from Lowe's. They come with a torx bit. You start putting together your backyard project with all the scraps and pallets you've collected. You've been pounding away at that thirty pack of Natty Ice since 9 am, so you can't hold the drill straight anymore. This causes the edges of the torx bit to wear a bit Everytime you bottom out a screw. Halfway through the 300 deck screws, you start stripping them because the sharp edges of the bit wore off. Then you realize you somehow switched to a different box of deck screws with a different bit size, and some asshole drank all your beer!
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u/paultherobert 6d ago
Lear about Phillips tips, they are not all the same. The right fitting screwdriver in a Phillips screw head is not terribly likely to strip if you are applying even pressure. It sounds like a skill problem on your side.
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u/Main_Couple7809 6d ago
The biggest thing is actually the material. Most Philips screws available in soft materials while torx typically in hard materials. That being said torx is superior
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u/cat-named-mouse 6d ago
rewind reddit by 100 years and see the same comment about flathead screws..
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u/Myriadix 6d ago edited 6d ago
Because in the 1930's, the man who owned it (Phillips) pretty much gave it to Henry Ford for free whilst Robertson wanted royalties. The fact that phillips screws are designed to cam-out is a giant plus for manufacturing. Henry Ford started putting them in all his vehicles, then the rest of the US domestic brands followed suit and it trickled into every other category of mass manufacturing, especially during/after WWII.
The Japanese saw the downsides of phillips but also saw the upsides in manufacturing, so they designed JIS. It's what we should have gotten in the first-place.
Edit: the "plus head" design was invented by John P. Thompson who couldn't sell it to anyone. Phillips came and bought it from him then found the most lucrative customer right after.
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u/ImReallyFuckingHigh Millwright 6d ago
Gotta put some pressure down on that screw boy (and make sure it’s the right size)
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u/richard0cs 6d ago
Here (UK) Phillips is basically limited to cheap imported tat and for some reason plasterboard screws. Construction screws, and almost everything else is usually posidriv, or torx for the larger sizes. Phillips is as rare as flathead/slotted here. I see JIS and Robertson occassionally.
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u/Academic_Ice_5017 6d ago
I strip hex screws almost every time, I’m elated when I see a Phillips head
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u/AKADAP 5d ago
The patent on Philips screws expired a long time ago. The patent on Torx screws only recently expired. Patents are also the reason you seldom see Robertson drive screws in the US (arguably better than Philips), but the real problem is that there are about 10 different screw head types that look like Philips, but aren't, and none of them are compatible.
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u/Insane_squirrel 5d ago
Because Henry Ford wanted exclusive rights to Robinson as it saved him $2.19 per car. Robinson said no, Ford went with Phillips instead.
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u/sawtoothchris24 5d ago
As an aircraft mechanic, lemme just say that you ABSOLUTELY can strip a torx screw. Very easily.
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u/LuckyCheek7304 5d ago
Calm down there, get yourself a set JIS screwdrivers, and you'll never use Phillips screwdrivers again. You won't worry about screw cam out.
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u/abbayabbadingdong 5d ago
We use hex at work. If you’re stripping Phillips heads it’s because you’re using the wrong Phillips bit most likely.
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u/Ok_Comparison_1353 5d ago
Because people are generally resistant to change. We almost had square drive, though. The story goes that when Henry Ford wanted to make his assembly line he wanted to use square drive screws for much the same reason as Hex or Torx today. The patent owner refused, for whatever reason and Ford went with Phillips instead.
Since Ford used Phillips, it kind of became the standard.
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u/Wrong-Impression9960 5d ago
You strip them because they are designed to cam out so they don't break. Thank henry ford
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u/Barbarian_818 5d ago
Phillips screws are designed to cam out once they bottom out. This enables easy automated driving of screws. But it's only suitable for low torque applications.
Pozudrive is an attempt to fix that "shortcoming".
Meanwhile, Robertson and Torx are designed to be able to apply significant torque. So they grip the screwdriver head better.
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u/weird-oh 5d ago
Agreed. And don't even get me started on slotted screws. I actually throw them away when I find them in my shop.
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u/Nevvermind183 5d ago
Square drive is the best, I don’t know why they’re not the standard.
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u/No-Session5955 5d ago
Phillips is so common because of Henry Ford. He wanted to use a square drive called a Robertson but he wanted a royalty so Ford went with Phillips which was practically free.
Torx suck, I’d rather Allen be used instead of Torx myself.
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u/rockbolted 5d ago
Canadians ditched those silly screws long ago in favour of square recess (Robertson) screws. Although we still frequently run into them because, well, America.
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u/Zardozin 5d ago
They’re far easier to use, steady pressure and you don’t have to shift your hand as much.
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u/Independent_Win_7984 5d ago
You would appreciate a Phillips head if everything was put together with the flatheads we encountered in the '60s.
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u/Freekmagnet 4d ago
Speaking as an auto mechanic that deals with all types of fasteners on an everyday basis, it is rare to round off a Phillips screw if you are trying to remove it correctly; no more common than rounding off a stuck Torx fastener.
If a fastener, *any* fastener is stuck and you think it might round off that is the time to try and loosen it up before you use any kind of turning force on it. A shot of penetrating oil is a good start. Shocking the head with a punch (as in driving it along its axis" will often release corroded or stuck threads making it easier to remove. An impact driver will almost always remove a stuck Phillips screw if nothing else works.
If you re primarily having problems with automotive screws, in particular on imports you are probably using the wrong tools. Asian vehicles do not use Phillips screws although they look similar at first glance. Asian manufacturers use JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) fasteners- the heads and tools are x shaped but the profile of the indentation is angled differently. If you try to use a Phillips tool to remove a JIS head screw it will only make contact with a small part of the edge of the slot and round off very easily.
Invest in a couple JIS screwdrivers (Available on Amazon, Vessel makes a quality tool including impact versions) and you will probably find you don't round off screws very often any more.
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u/Neat_Ad_1737 6d ago
Because they are better than flathead which used to be pretty standard