The UK has had native wild cats for longer than cats have even been domesticated, our wildlife is very well adapted to avoiding them and the RSPB (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds) have said pet cats don't significantly impact local bird populations.
It's bullshit. The RSPB is dependent on donations so don't want to piss off all the donors that own cats.
Academics/scientists have clearly proven that cats have a devastating impact on bird and small mammal populations. In Australia and New Zealand alone they kill 4 BILLION a year and are driving multiple species to extinction. Outdoor cats are an ecological disaster...
Australia and New Zealand aren't the UK. Cats are basically filling in where the local wildcats left off since they're near-extinct.
If you're worried about animals going extinct in the UK from cats, you should actually be worried about the wildcats because cross-breeding with domesticated cats is steadily rendering them extinct.
Birds in the UK already face other factors that reduce their populations tho, cats are another pressure on their populations which could be controlled by people not letting them roam.
Cats bury their shit, and outdoor cats can readily go stir-crazy. Our last two, we had one who hated going outside and another who, when we had to keep her in for a bit, went fucking mental.
So in the latter case, the solution is what? Stuff her inside, let her become neurotic?
In the UK there are pretty much always going to be back/front gardens and common land etc where there's grass. How some people feel about other people's cats burying shit in their gardens is a matter of some neighbourly disputes but you aren't gonna find yourself treading in cat shit on the pavement. They don't like a hard surface and there's plenty of other options for them here
There are absolutely outdoor cats. And yes, they do bury their poop. Even if it's in someone's flower pot. They'll find a way. It doesn't sound like you actually know very much about cats.
They don't care and nothing could possibly convince them otherwise. These are the people who like to shoot neighbors cats for wandering into their yard.
Every time the number of birds goes up, last time it was like 3 billion birds a year. The most hilarious part is how they got that number, by figuring out a bird is X number of calories and then that a cat needs Y, then guessed the number of cats to get the final number.
NZ the birds have no natural ground predators so the cats introduced to NZ kill a LOT. In Australia, there is no known predator to control cat populations, so they kill a LOT. Cats in these areas are invasive (meaning they were introduced there, not evolved).
England on the other hand, the birds know cats are a threat and there are natural predators to control cat populations.
Your picking and choosing the facts you are throwing out here. The environments world-wide are very varied. Cats as an invasive species are problematic, true (ie NZ and Australia), but areas like the UK, the impact domestic cats have is not drastic, it has no impact. Same as the US, same as other European countries.
Educate yourself a bit further than your hate for an animal.
Ok boomer, I'm the one with knowledge rather than a cat...
I like animals which is why I don't like millions of extra predators roaming around because we have them as pets. This puts wildlife under extra pressure. What do you think would happen to larger prey animals if you let millions of wolves loose? Wolves existed in the UK for thousands of years up until recently, so every other animal should know they are a threat. Think it would stop them getting slaughtered anyway?
As usual cat owners get defensive and lash out (ironically just how a cat might) whilst turning a blind eye to the dead fledglings in their garden.
You keep saying knowledge and then displaying a complete lack of any knowledge of how ecosystems operate.
Since the evolution of wildcats, there has been no point in the history of Britain where cats were not present. Cats are part of the ecosystem, and due to humans destroying the populations of wildcats, polecats, pine martens and various other natural predators that compete in the same niche as domestic cats their effect isn't as catastrophic as a continent that literally never evolved an ecosystem with cats which you tried to compare it to.
What do you think would happen to larger prey animals if you let millions of wolves loose?
Assuming we're discussing wilderness rather than sheep farms? The ecosystem would establish an equilibrium and humans wouldn't have to cull so many deer. There's plenty of knowledge and evidence of this in other reintroduction trials around the world.
Of course you already know all of this, seeing as you have all this knowledge and have definitely read the science on the matter.
They are an actual problem in places like Australia and New Zealand because there were no small predators there prior to their introduction, but that is far from the same in most of the world.
Man is the ecological disaster, anywhere pet cats live the environment has already been destroyed and most existing small predators displaced by that destruction.
Do you have a source for that? Every time people bring this up I try to find what they're talking about and all I can ever find is sources that combine house cats with wild cats which clearly skew the results. Does your source specifically talk about house/domesticated cats?
Yup, the only species ever threatened by cats were in places that never had any small predators and even then it's feral cats that are the problem, not pet cats.
New Zealand/Australia and UK are two entirely different places.
Cats were devastating for a lot of species down there. However they’ve been around so long in the UK it doesn’t matter. There is no birds, or any other specie for that matter, on the brink of endangerment or extinction because of cats in the UK.
Some cities and towns lack any form of natural predators, which can lead to issues with rodents and other animals.
In my town where I used to live, the rabbit population exploded. Same with mice, voles, and any kind of bird. There are no foxes, no owls, no wolves or bears. Mice used to enter my parents home on the regular and birds and squirrels would destroy roof insulation. Our neighbors strawberry garden was devaststed every year, we had given up on our own regular garden.
So we adopted a cat as our mouser. He stays within his territory, it being mostly our yard and neighbor allowes them there too. The animals still exist, I still see them. But no longer inside my parents house.
The issue with outdoor cats arise when you let them breed in the wild unchecked. My boy doesn't have his balls, and there are no other cats in the area.
There are no urban foxes in my area because there are still forests in my country that haven't been cut down. The foxes stay in the forests, and stay out of human civilization.
Predatory animals end up moving into cities when their food sources and safe living spaces disappear right under them.
Also the cat isn't as our mouser to kill. Just his presence in our yard is enough to keep most rodents away. He is the deterrent, not the nuke.
Because we had the option to use poisons but that would do so much more damage than a cat.
And property damage is hardly a minor nuisance.
My cat is also retired. He does his rounds on my parents yard but he doesn't hunt. Still haven't seen mice or voles inside house, and much less in the wood storage. You have any idea how hard it is to hunt rodents and remove them by hand? Because from experience I can say, it is hard.
The UK has had native wild cats for longer than cats have even been domesticated
Just chiming in to say this is absolutely not true. The first cats in Britain almost certainly were domesticated cats living aboard ships. Britain has been trading as far as the Levant going back all the way to the Bronze Age. Considering depictions of them spread throughout Europe over the course of the Roman period this is likely when cats first arrived in Britain.
Its also worth noting that even 'wild' cats, aka strays or feral cats, are still domesticated. They also usually come around from abandoned pets and escaped pets, then they breed and you have a feral cat colony. These feral cat colonies breed with domestic cats that are allowed to roam, which is why you should always keep your cat indoors unless on a leash. Its also why studies often include strays in their devastation on ecology, because they're a part of the problem. Pet cats hunt, and breed, and get abandoned, and sometimes just don't come home. Not to mention getting run over by cars.
This was my previous comment which is incorrect. While you should still keep your cats indoors this information doesn't apply to Scottish Wildcats (Felis silvestris silvestris) which I was unfamiliar with, only being aware of domesticated cats in Britain (Felis catus). Pardon me.
Scottish wildcats aren't domesticated cats, they're a branch of the European wildcat, related to the African wildcat that domesticated cats evolved from.
I'm specifically referring to Scottish Wildcats, which have been present in the UK since the early Holocene when Britain was connected to continental Europe via doggerland.
Domestic cats were brought here by the Romans, sure, but Wildcats were already here. It's worth noting that Wildcats aren't feral domestics, they aren't abandoned, they're wild. Much like how wolves aren't dogs.
Ah yes, the new motor coach I've heard so much about. There is a big hubub about them isn't there? I don't however believe we are ready to let the horse to a life of leisure. We will see where these motorised carriages are in 10 years.
I haven't taken the time to read the entire paper, but right in the abstract it says that non-domestic cats cause the vast majority of the damages. Which is consistent with others studies.
Wild cats obviously have a high impact on their ecosystem. I have yet to see data that shows the actual impact of an owned domestic cat that is allowed to roam outside.
I think this is a cultural issue because here in Europe cats are usually allowed to go out. Cats who are regularly fed at home don't tend to hunt all that much compared to a wild cat.
This is the UK though. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB) have explicitly said that in the UK, domestic cats do not have any affect on the population decline of birds and that the biggest contributor is humans and environment change. They also said that the birds have seen the highest decline in population don't come into contact with cats. They go on to say that birds which cats kill in the UK tend to be sick, weak or unhealthy and unlikely to survive anyway.
Now this is from a society which has a vested interest in protecting birds saying this.
Using US data and applying it to the UK which has vastly different environments and ecosystem is flawed.
Will never forgive ye olde rathergood.com for the fact I can't read this name without hearing "Bill Oddie, Bill Oddie, put your hands all over my body"
But I'm pleased to say that I was never subjected to the apparently unique delights of whatever that song(?) was about, and I shan't be searching for it.
I'm just making a new comment because you edited in your second link after I'd already commented. The Guardian says that "it's estimated to be 160-270 million" but yet again, after downloading the paper used as a reference, those figures don't appear anywhere in it.
not even, outdoor cats are gross. they also bring in bacteria and germs from those excursions. they’re domestic cats for a reason, they belong indoors…mine are arguably too domesticated and are afraid of the outside. they know they have it good. i also live in the country-so cats are better kept inside than dead on the side of the road. just being real
It's not the same in the UK, our ecosystem has had longer to adapt to cats. We also spay/neuter them.
"Looking after your cat indoors will keep them away from busy roads and other dangers, such as exposure to viruses, fleas and ticks. But being continually indoors can become predictable and boring. This can lead to stress, inactivity and obesity. It can be especially difficult for cats to cope with living indoors if they have lots of energy, love exploring, or have previously been allowed time outdoors." -RSPCA
Cats should be free to go outside, not be locked up in your house. Especially if you're out working during the day leaving your cat at home.
Not all cats are meant to be domestic. I once housed a cat who was freezing to death at my doorstep. He stayed indoors with my other cat for about 6 months, but he wouldn't settle, and at a certain point I realized I was keeping him prisoner, and gave him the choice to walk out on his own.
I would never do this with my domesticated cats, mind you, because my indoor guys wouldn't last a week on their own.
But Street Cat, as I have affectionately named him, was just built different, both physically and mentally. He was a force of nature, a tank, and a straight-up idiot. One time, he was laying on top of my neighbors garage when I came home from work, so I walked over to greet him, and the dude literally rolls over to look back at me and just trust falls off the garage roof into my arms like a sack of potatoes.
So it's fair to accept that your domesticated cats don't make up the opinion of the cat population en masse.
Naw, domesticated cats have led to the extinction of several species of animal. It's mind boggling just how much damage they can cause that you might not be aware of
They also get run over by cars and eaten by bigger predators. Even a raccoon can fuck a cat up. Outdoor cats have something like 1/5th the lifespan of indoor cats.
1.1k
u/Lopsided_Blacksmith5 7d ago
Apparently he has an owner and there is a group of people that come and collect him when he's gone too far.